income from digital assets on retirement visa

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

 

say i have some digital assets that makes me money, for example photo stock or even web shop on amazon. will it be possible

to enjoy the profits even with a retirement visa? AND than, will i have to pay taxes in thailand on those profits? and do i need work permit if i manage 

this internet business while i am in thailand on retirement visa? for example, add photos to my photo stock or

add products to my web shop - will that be considered work? and if yes, will i have to open a company / get work permit to do that?

i heard there is  a plan to issue SMART VISA for operators of web businesses, but not sure how and when...??

[worgeordie]

They dont know, you dont tell them.

regards Worgeordie

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

6 hours ago, worgeordie said:

They dont know, you dont tell them.

regards Worgeordie

not so sure it is a smart move...depands on the amounts of course.

i know someone who had a good business here in thailand, and 

when he wanted to live thailand with his money - they got him

and took from him 200K usd. SO better plan than sorry.

 

besides you can't operate a big internet business if you get paid,

and you can;t get paid on line if you don;t declare your residency,

so why not pay in thailand ?/?

[NanLaew]

44 minutes ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

not so sure it is a smart move...depands on the amounts of course.

i know someone who had a good business here in thailand, and 

when he wanted to live thailand with his money - they got him

and took from him 200K usd. SO better plan than sorry.

 

besides you can't operate a big internet business if you get paid,

and you can;t get paid on line if you don;t declare your residency,

so why not pay in thailand ?/?

Repatriation of funds via bank transfer is pretty much limited the owner of a foreign condo (repatriating funds from sale of condo whose original purchase was similarly done with the original condo purchase funds originating from overseas being flagged as such) and those holding a Work permit (repatriation of earnings). For cash movements:-

Any person who brings or takes an aggregate amount of foreign currency exceeding USD20,000 or its equivalent out of or into Thailand shall declare such amount of foreign currency to a Customs Officer.Failure to declare upon bringing currency that exceeds the amount restricted by law or its equivalent out of or into Thailand or making any false declaration to a Customs Officer is a criminal offence.For Thai currency (Baht), any person can bring total amount not exceed THB500,000 to any Thailand’s bounded countries and not exceed THB50,000 to any destination countries.More than that mentioned amount, you have to declare to a Customs Officer or exchange to others currency before depart from Thailand.Further information, you can contact The Customs Department atTel: +66-2-249-0431 or hot line no. 1164.Website: www.customs.go.th

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

not so sure it is a smart move...depands on the amounts of course.

i know someone who had a good business here in thailand, and 

when he wanted to live thailand with his money - they got him

and took from him 200K usd. SO better plan than sorry.

 

besides you can't operate a big internet business if you get paid,

and you can;t get paid on line if you don;t declare your residency,

so why not pay in thailand ?/?

And you can't legally work in Thailand (get a Work permit) if you are on a 'Retirement visa' and/or extension thereof.

 

Fairly confident that there's more than a few 'working' retirees here in LOS that don't have issues with taxes, ie. up to them to decide if they want to pay taxes here or at home (or otherwise).

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

12 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Repatriation of funds via bank transfer is pretty much limited the owner of a foreign condo (repatriating funds from sale of condo whose original purchase was similarly done with the original condo purchase funds originating from overseas being flagged as such) and those holding a Work permit (repatriation of earnings). For cash movements:-

Any person who brings or takes an aggregate amount of foreign currency exceeding USD20,000 or its equivalent out of or into Thailand shall declare such amount of foreign currency to a Customs Officer.Failure to declare upon bringing currency that exceeds the amount restricted by law or its equivalent out of or into Thailand or making any false declaration to a Customs Officer is a criminal offence.For Thai currency (Baht), any person can bring total amount not exceed THB500,000 to any Thailand’s bounded countries and not exceed THB50,000 to any destination countries.More than that mentioned amount, you have to declare to a Customs Officer or exchange to others currency before depart from Thailand.Further information, you can contact The Customs Department atTel: +66-2-249-0431 or hot line no. 1164.Website: www.customs.go.th

well this is why i am asking about the thai law regarding digital profits, cauae i plan to profit more than 20K usd, but not sure how the thai law see passive digital profits, and if i'll need a work permit for them or just pay tax on them.

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

12 hours ago, NanLaew said:

And you can't legally work in Thailand (get a Work permit) if you are on a 'Retirement visa' and/or extension thereof.

 

Fairly confident that there's more than a few 'working' retirees here in LOS that don't have issues with taxes, ie. up to them to decide if they want to pay taxes here or at home (or otherwise).

WELL my question was weather digital passive profits are considering work, cause

i only get to do some maintainanace work once in few weeks...without living my home.

and if you make money , i mean serious money, than it is not "up to you" to pay taxes, unless

you have a large pair of socks (to hide all that cash).

[darrendsd]

52 minutes ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

WELL my question was weather digital passive profits are considering work, cause

i only get to do some maintainanace work once in few weeks...without living my home.

and if you make money , i mean serious money, than it is not "up to you" to pay taxes, unless

you have a large pair of socks (to hide all that cash).

Whilst it's still a grey area if you are working from home the chances of you being caught are pretty much zero unless you put it around where you live what you are doing

 

As for tax that's up to you however at this time the Thai Tax authorities do not actively enforce the rule that incoming bank funds should be taxed if they were earned in the same year as they were transferred 

 

This may or may not change when Thailand becomes a fully fledged member of the CRS (Common Reporting Standard) in a few years time but in reality it really could be years and years if and when they ever start to take a real interest in money being transferred in by individuals 

 

If you want to be really savvy open as many Thai Bank accounts as you can and spread the transfers over each one 

 

[NanLaew]

16 minutes ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

well this is why i am asking about the thai law regarding digital profits, cauae i plan to profit more than 20K usd, but not sure how the thai law see passive digital profits, and if i'll need a work permit for them or just pay tax on them.

I think all the information you need is detailed here.

 

They do not have any special tax treatment for a foreigner of any immigration status claiming to have "income from digital assets". By the same token, there's no "passive" when it comes to working and thus earning money or taking remuneration while here, regardless if the end products are hosted, traded, exclusively overseas. Technically and even legally, you would need a Work permit but that has been done to death here and many, many are earning money the same way and if done quietly, there's little evidence of problems with the Labour Department getting the Immigration police to grab you or vice-versa. Since you are or will be on a Retirement visa or extension thereof, the WP is a moot point anyway.

 

No need to worry IMHO.

 

And you can contact then at:

Thailand Inland Revenue Department
www.rd.go.th (website in English)

 

Tel: + 66 2247 2748

[elviajero]

6 hours ago, darrendsd said:

As for tax that's up to you however at this time the Thai Tax authorities do not actively enforce the rule that incoming bank funds should be taxed if they were earned in the same year as they were transferred 

Yes they do. What you probably mean is they don't actively seek out foreign tax evaders. The onus is on the individual to submit a tax return.

[BritTim]

You should read the various threads here on digital nomads. To find these, use a Google search like

site:www.thaivisa.com digital nomad

Opinions vary.  My own opinion is that work carried out inside Thailand that involve neither a Thai employer, nor Thai customers are tolerated (decision at top levels of Thai officialdom) but technically not in accordance with the antiquated laws.

 

On taxes, the rule is that income from overseas sources is only taxable if both

• you are in Thailand for more than 180 days during the year; and
• you bring that income into Thailand within the year it was earned.

Since money is fungible, it is usually difficult to prove whether money from savings was earned this year or last year, and the Thai tax authorities appear not to try. In practice, overseas income usually avoids tax unless, on moral grounds, you decide to declare money you brought in as taxable income.

[darrendsd]

6 hours ago, elviajero said:

Yes they do. What you probably mean is they don't actively seek out foreign tax evaders. The onus is on the individual to submit a tax return.

Yes that's exactly what I meant, if you read my post again you will see that I advised the OP it's up to him what he wants to do regarding this

[JackThompson]

22 hours ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

will i have to pay taxes in thailand on those profits?

Only if you bring that money into Thailand in the same tax-year it is earned.
If you transfer money earned in a previous year to Thailand, no tax is due.
Therefore, if you have enough savings to live in Thailand 1 year or more, you can avoid any tax-liability.

[ChiangMaiLightning2143]

On 16/01/2018 at 2:39 PM, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

not so sure it is a smart move...depands on the amounts of course.

i know someone who had a good business here in thailand, and 

when he wanted to live thailand with his money - they got him

and took from him 200K usd. SO better plan than sorry.

 

besides you can't operate a big internet business if you get paid,

and you can;t get paid on line if you don;t declare your residency,

so why not pay in thailand ?/?

Thailand will not know nor care what you do on your computer in a cafe at home or anywhere as long as you keep a low profile. Your country might have other requirements. As a US person for example I am required to report all global income. Most have to file a yearly tax return. The subject of domicile is very complex under US tax law. As mentioned if you stay in Thailand more than 180 days you have tax liability but money is fungible. Of course the moneys I transfer to Thailand was not earned the year I bring it in! Never heard of a retiree who pays tax to Thailand on their transfers from abroad.

 

The so-called SMART visa discussed has nothing to do with Digital Nomadism and you will never get a work permit for online work unless you work for a Thai company. If you want to pay taxes here maybe you can start a Thai company with all the requirements for Thai majority shareholders payed up capital and accounting,  Thai employees, insurance payments,etc.  There is plenty of information on this site concerning that process.

[elviajero]

7 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Only if you bring that money into Thailand in the same tax-year it is earned.
If you transfer money earned in a previous year to Thailand, no tax is due.
Therefore, if you have enough savings to live in Thailand 1 year or more, you can avoid any tax-liability.

It wouldn’t matter how much in savings you had in Thailand. It’s savings in the country you transfer from that are relevant to any tax liability.

[Master Jairam]

Hav heard of guys running online biz in thailand ...what they sell how receive money all a mystery. But once u get a hang of it...can get money on the side for leisure.

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, elviajero said:

It wouldn’t matter how much in savings you had in Thailand. It’s savings in the country you transfer from that are relevant to any tax liability.

Correct.  To clarify my meaning:
Money not earned in the current year, transferred to Thailand, is not taxable in Thailand.
Money which was earned in the current year, transferred to Thailand, is taxable in Thailand.

 

Therefore, if you have over a year's living expenses saved outside Thailand, you can transfer that money to Thailand tax-free, as long as not touching your "newly earned" income from the current year.

 

As others have pointed out, its a bit murky, in that it is like putting water into one end of a bathtub, and taking it out of the other.

[JackThompson]

5 hours ago, ChiangMaiLightning2143 said:

The so-called SMART visa discussed has nothing to do with Digital Nomadism and you will never get a work permit for online work unless you work for a Thai company.

Those on the SMART Visa will not need work-permits or be tied to a Thai company (by work-permits) - according to what I have read thus-far.  There are other restrictions such as qualifications, savings, and income which determine eligibility. 

From what I last read on income level required, SMART Visa applicants might as well live in Singapore or Switzerland  - so this won't bring in significant talent.  Looks like another, "Hey, here's a great idea..." (like the ME Tourist Visa) and then the bureaucrats and/or those profiting from other visa-systems destroy it, and all the promise it might have had to help the country.  We shall see for sure when they roll it out and we get reports back.

[ChiangMaiLightning2143]

30 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Those on the SMART Visa will not need work-permits or be tied to a Thai company (by work-permits) - according to what I have read thus-far.  There are other restrictions such as qualifications, savings, and income which determine eligibility. 

From what I last read on income level required, SMART Visa applicants might as well live in Singapore or Switzerland  - so this won't bring in significant talent.  Looks like another, "Hey, here's a great idea..." (like the ME Tourist Visa) and then the bureaucrats and/or those profiting from other visa-systems destroy it, and all the promise it might have had to help the country.  We shall see for sure when they roll it out and we get reports back.

I know that about work permits, the OP mentioned photo stock and online stores. SMART visa is for people would be for working for Thai companies to facilitate technology transfers in so called S-curve industries,  science and technology field, investors, high-level executives and startup entrepreneurs. There was much wishful thinking online with this announcement but unfortunately this visa has nothing to do with hipsters with long beards running websites from cafes, seen just as more Farangs (with laptops), not  "quality tourists".  I don't have a problem with it but the DMs in Chiang Mai  are using tourist visas as a way to work here long term,  most looking for and promoting low cost of living. I fear they will be the next to be driven out, and the unintended backlash on actual tourists who don't work here.

[JackThompson]

15 minutes ago, ChiangMaiLightning2143 said:

I know that about work permits, the OP mentioned photo stock and online stores. SMART visa is for people would be for working for Thai companies to facilitate technology transfers in so called S-curve industries,  science and technology field, investors, high-level executives and startup entrepreneurs.

 

I just read another newer article on it - and it appears they have succeeded in making it nearly useless in bringing in talent.  Nothing anyone making that kind of money would even notice, since a company-employee would handle all their immigration/labor paperwork.
 

15 minutes ago, ChiangMaiLightning2143 said:

There was much wishful thinking online with this announcement but unfortunately this visa has nothing to do with hipsters with long beards running websites from cafes, seen just as more Farangs (with laptops), not  "quality tourists".  I don't have a problem with it but the DMs in Chiang Mai  are using tourist visas as a way to work here long term,  most looking for and promoting low cost of living. I fear they will be the next to be driven out, and the unintended backlash on actual tourists who don't work here.

What harm are these "Farangs with laptops" doing to Thailand? 
How much money do they add to the CM + Thai economy each year? 
There is no welfare for foreigners, so no cost.

 

So, all upside, no downside, except for people who might dislike "hipsters with long beards."  I am sure some fraction meet that description, but the other 99% don't work "in cafes" - they have faster-Internet in their homes.  Some even use co-working spaces (personally, I think that is foolish).

 

Although I do not dispute the labor-law as written, I would guess the lack of actual downside, and all upside, to remote-workers living/working in Thailand, is why this archaic labor-law is not being enforced in designated co-working spaces, etc.

Note that all "crackdowns" have been schemes to increase brown-envelopes / payoffs (ED, Elite, etc) - nothing to do with the issue at hand, which could be fixed very, very easily by going to schools and dive-areas and busting actual illegal-workers taking Thai jobs red-handed.

[ChiangMaiLightning2143]

So can we agree the smart VISA has nothing to do with so-called  digital nomadism?

The OP will be on retirement extension, no crackdown in sight.

Report to Thai Inland Tax Dept tax on passive income or an Amazon web shoppe? Pfft!

Nope, no problem at all, just keep it "on the down low"

 

Nobody will notice what he does banging on a laptop all day.

 

The problem is the hidebound and thinking and anachronistic policies straight of the 1970s, maybe earlier. Insulating Thailand from Foreign talent, competition, investment, and of course  the worst "ownership". OK only if to benefit a few top cronies at the trough. The ridiculous idea this actually helps the country or the people.

[Master Jairam]

13 hours ago, JackThompson said:

I just read another newer article on it - and it appears they have succeeded in making it nearly useless in bringing in talent.  Nothing anyone making that kind of money would even notice, since a company-employee would handle all their immigration/labor paperwork.
 

What harm are these "Farangs with laptops" doing to Thailand? 
How much money do they add to the CM + Thai economy each year? 
There is no welfare for foreigners, so no cost.

 

So, all upside, no downside, except for people who might dislike "hipsters with long beards."  I am sure some fraction meet that description, but the other 99% don't work "in cafes" - they have faster-Internet in their homes.  Some even use co-working spaces (personally, I think that is foolish).

 

Although I do not dispute the labor-law as written, I would guess the lack of actual downside, and all upside, to remote-workers living/working in Thailand, is why this archaic labor-law is not being enforced in designated co-working spaces, etc.

Note that all "crackdowns" have been schemes to increase brown-envelopes / payoffs (ED, Elite, etc) - nothing to do with the issue at hand, which could be fixed very, very easily by going to schools and dive-areas and busting actual illegal-workers taking Thai jobs red-handed.

Another reason could be to keep the influx in check. If numbers increase they might feel threatened. Govts around the world feel threatened by immigrants. This could be weighing on their minds all the time, I ink.

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

On 1/17/2018 at 12:35 PM, elviajero said:

It wouldn’t matter how much in savings you had in Thailand. It’s savings in the country you transfer from that are relevant to any tax liability.

I THINK what he meant is that if you dont bring into thailand your earning that year, you will not have to pay tax on them, or at least they won't ask you..

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, ChiangMaiLightning2143 said:

So can we agree the smart VISA has nothing to do with so-called  digital nomadism?

Even by it's most friendly descriptions, early on (that I read), it was for those with degrees / experience + 500K in the bank - not high-school grads with an Amazon shop. 

By adding the 200K/mo qualification, it has nothing to do with "reality" - so might as well forget it exists.

[stevenl]

16 minutes ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

I THINK what he meant is that if you dont bring into thailand your earning that year, you will not have to pay tax on them, or at least they won't ask you..

Take into account that that leaving it in the country of origin could lead to tax liability in the country of origin. And many countries won't be as lenient with collection as Thailand.

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

6 hours ago, stevenl said:

Take into account that that leaving it in the country of origin could lead to tax liability in the country of origin. And many countries won't be as lenient with collection as Thailand.

in most cases most coutries won't tax savings in the bank. the taxation is based on residencecy. there were of course some exeptions, like cyprus who declared 20%- 47% tax on all bank deposits in 2013.

[stevenl]

17 minutes ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

in most cases most coutries won't tax savings in the bank. the taxation is based on residencecy. there were of course some exeptions, like cyprus who declared 20%- 47% tax on all bank deposits in 2013.

Income is, and we were talking about income.

[FritsSikkink]

You talk about digital assets first and then about running a web shop with some minor work to be done. Officially you need a company and a work permit, which you can't do on a retirement visa. That being said, when the money is going to a bank account outside the country and don't need to post items via the post office here, the chances of being caught are very slim. 

[Master Jairam]

1 minute ago, FritsSikkink said:

You talk about digital assets first and then about running a web shop with some minor work to be done. Officially you need a company and a work permit, which you can't do on a retirement visa. That being said, when the money is going to a bank account outside the country and don't need to post items via the post office here, the chances of being caught are very slim. 

Is it possible to apply for a work permit when one is staying on a retirement visa?

[stevenl]

26 minutes ago, Master Jairam said:

Is it possible to apply for a work permit when one is staying on a retirement visa?

No.