Bangkok Air Pollution

[fishism]

On that point, my wife works in purchasing, and today, her Thai boss asked her for info about the HEPA air purifier we have at home, apparently because the boss is now thinking about wanting to buy a unit for her home.
 
So, I was checking around with some web links to provide to my wife for her boss, both for the Sharp unit we have in our bedroom, and also for the Xiaomi 2S model that some folks here have, use and have reviewed well. The latter also has the advantage of having relatively easily obtained replacement filters here in Thailand -- which often can be a challenge with other models.
 
Well, I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but for both the Sharp model we have and the Xiaomi model, almost every website and supplier that I had bookmarked, saved or checked today showed as "out of stock" for all kinds of HEPA air purifier models. So seems to be pretty much the same situation as with the N95 masks.  Few and far between, and hard to find.
 
That's why I always say, and try to think, about being ahead of the game here, and not waiting until every Tom, Dick and Somchai figures out the air is terrible and they'd better try to do something to save their lungs. Maybe better luck with the locally produced and commonplace Hatari HEPA units....
 
 

I went to 5 Xiaomi Mi stores in bangkok and all were out of stock of the unit except 2 had display models they would not sell and said more stock coming 5th March. One store had 15 waiting for collection.




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[TallGuyJohninBKK]

8 hours ago, DaveInSukhumvit said:

Has anyone seen where you can buy filters like this in Bangkok?  They are common in US at 1" thick.
 

 

Like this -- out of stock at the 3M store at Lazada

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/filtrete-fapf04-filter-for-ultra-slim-model-i10696909-s13386389.html?spm=a2o6z.10453683.0.0.6adf64a8EB7tFo&mp=3

 

[fishism]

Why is the Hatari fan still in the box?
 
Strapping the HEPA filter to the front is what you need to do. I've done that for years and have never had a problem. Check out the Smart Air website for instructions on DIY air purifiers.

My hatari fan with HEPA filter seems like a failure, I tried putting it on the front and there is zero air flow, keeping inside the box was better.

Was yours the same size fan?


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[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 minutes ago, fishism said:

I went to 5 Xiaomi Mi stores in bangkok and all were out of stock of the unit except 2 had display models they would not sell and said more stock coming 5th March. One store had 15 waiting for collection.
 

 

The March 5 date, if it holds, probably will be after the worst of the current smog season.  But never fear, the government here will do little to nothing to address the problem, so the same conditions will be back again next Dec. to March or so... So plenty of time to get prepared ahead of the NEXT bad smog season.

 

[MaxYakov]

28 minutes ago, fishism said:

 

My hatari fan with HEPA filter seems like a failure, I tried putting it on the front and there is zero air flow, keeping inside the box was better.

Was yours the same size fan?


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As I said earlier HERE:

 

"If you're thinking of using such a filter with a box fan and the filter has a charcoal odor filter, you might dump the carbon layer to get better air flow. You might also with placing just the HEPA, folded filter material component in the fan's intake rather than in it fan's output. This may require that the filter be spaced further away from the fan so as to not interfere with the fan's aerodynamic characteristics. Such a spacing would require building a simple plenum out of corrugated plastic construction material or even cardboard. At least with such a plenum you could get away with having only one smaller air purifier HEPA filter rather than two by designing the plenum to "narrow-down" with distance from a (larger width) box fan."

 

Since I have an unused Hatari HA 9218 HEPA filter lying around, I may go out and buy a box fan that is similar to the one in the DiY video and do a little experimentation with a fabricated plenum to get the filter some distance from the fan (if necessary). My PerfectBrandz PBC-333 evaporative cooler (converted to be an air purifier) works fine as a high-velocity/high-volume cooler/air purifier using a single layer of 3M Filtrete filter material only a few inches from its squirrel-cage fan - on the intake side. Of course, it was designed to push air with some air flow restriction on the intake side (the evaporative water cooling component - which was designed to be removed - and I did and essentially replaced it with the filter material).

 

 

[JAS21]

57 minutes ago, MaxYakov said:

Nice post and what looks to be a nice PM monitor. Can you tell us what make/model it is and where you bought it?

 

If you look at his shop you will see quite a few have been bought by people here in Thailand... delivery was around 10 days!!

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Car-Home-PM2-5-Air-Quality-Detector-2-8-Inch-TFT-Screen-Digital-Air-Particulates-Measure/32923019291.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.55854c4d3MT0F1

 

 

 

[JAS21]

I looked at toilet extract fans yesterday ... wondered about a project using one and the hepa filter that is fitted to either the everest (20cm*23cm) or the civic. I know that civic 2.5 ug/m3 is pulled down quite low. Probably put some 3M filtrate in front of the hepa.

 

My Daikin Air Conditioner (MCK55TVM6) doesn't have a huge flow but it soon pulls down the 2.5ug/m3 in our bedroom...

[MaxYakov]

3 minutes ago, JAS21 said:

I looked at toilet extract fans yesterday ... wondered about a project using one and the hepa filter that is fitted to either the everest (20cm*23cm) or the civic. I know that civic 2.5 ug/m3 is pulled down quite low. Probably put some 3M filtrate in front of the hepa.

 

My Daikin Air Conditioner (MCK55TVM6) doesn't have a huge flow but it soon pulls down the 2.5ug/m3 in our bedroom...

What is the Daikin A/C using as a particle filter?

[JAS21]

1 hour ago, MaxYakov said:

What is the Daikin A/C using as a particle filter?

Is this any help ... https://www.daikin.co.th/en/product/air-purifier-mck55tvm6/  

 

Over night it puts quite a lot of water back into the air to keep the humidity up...also it quickly absorbs smells!

 

[edwardandtubs]

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Well, I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but for both the Sharp model we have and the Xiaomi model, almost every website and supplier that I had bookmarked, saved or checked today showed as "out of stock" for all kinds of HEPA air purifier models. So seems to be pretty much the same situation as with the N95 masks.  Few and far between, and hard to find.

 

Mi HEPA filters can be bought from AliExpress for 500 baht. I think the genuine Xiaomi ones are about 1000 though.

[edwardandtubs]

2 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The March 5 date, if it holds, probably will be after the worst of the current smog season.  But never fear, the government here will do little to nothing to address the problem, so the same conditions will be back again next Dec. to March or so... So plenty of time to get prepared ahead of the NEXT bad smog season.

 

The official Xiaomi store on Lazada has occasional promotions of the mi 2s for under 4000 baht so it would be better to wait for that rather than pre-order now unless someone really needs it in March.

[edwardandtubs]

2 hours ago, fishism said:

 

My hatari fan with HEPA filter seems like a failure, I tried putting it on the front and there is zero air flow, keeping inside the box was better.

Was yours the same size fan?


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Do you really mean zero air flow? Put your hands really close and as long as you can feel some air coming through its working. This is a tried and tested method. I don't think a fan in a cardboard box with a HEPA filter on top has ever been tested but I can't see how it would work.

[lopburi3]

1 hour ago, JAS21 said:

Over night it puts quite a lot of water back into the air to keep the humidity up...

Do not understand anyone wanting more water in the air in Thailand.  Arizona maybe.

[JAS21]

17 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Do not understand anyone wanting more water in the air in Thailand.  Arizona maybe.

The aircon takes a lot of moisture out of the air in the bedroom overnight...my air purifer sometimes consumes nearly a litre overnight.

 

Check you bedroom humidity late evening and then in the morning

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, JAS21 said:

Is this any help ... https://www.daikin.co.th/en/product/air-purifier-mck55tvm6/  

 

Over night it puts quite a lot of water back into the air to keep the humidity up...also it quickly absorbs smells!

 

 

Pricey..and out of stock to boot....

 

[JAS21]

13 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Pricey..and out of stock to boot....

 

Out of stock ...yes

Pricey... can be ????

[edwardandtubs]

25 minutes ago, JAS21 said:

Out of stock ...yes

Pricey... can be ????

If you want to spend 20,000 on an air purifier, I would go for this one:

 

https://s.lazada.co.th/s.lAjN

 

Also out of stock but more powerful.

[lopburi3]

1 hour ago, JAS21 said:

The aircon takes a lot of moisture out of the air in the bedroom overnight...my air purifer sometimes consumes nearly a litre overnight.

 

Check you bedroom humidity late evening and then in the morning

Yes and that is my goal.  I want lower humidity and make sure I buy aircon small enough to allow such reduction.

[wood]

Interesting topic..

As per my last post, both the canary and I made it through the night after sealing some entry points for this polluted air.

It did help, the Xiaomi 2S air purifier stayed on minimal power and hence low noise all night..

 

Joking aside, it has me wondering;

Scenario 1.

Hypothetically speaking, if a room is sealed and there are no air entry points, apart from those loose windows and gaps at the door, and assuming that the external air pressure and air humidity is identical to the inside air pressure and humidity, how does a room replenish its air/ oxygen content ?

The room is occupied and oxygen is being depleted and replaced with human expelled Carbon dioxide.

What are the physics involved for the depleted oxygen % to be replenished ?

Outside air has other factors to maintain and stabilise the oxygen % content that we breathe. ( pressure differentials, humidity, even wind).

It's fairly common knowledge that air pressure will fill any lower air pressure void it encounters, but as above, inside that room, this is not the case, so how does it replenish? 

 

Scenario 2.

As above, equal air pressure inside and out the room, identical humidity.

You open a larger window and expect a gust of wind to fill the room with fresh air, except it's not that simple in this case.

The assumption is that the outside oxygen molecules are chemically attracted to their counterparts inside  the room and rush in, therefore filling the room back up to the 20% oxygen  content that we need.

But, if this is the case, how does it stop and maintain at 20% ?

 

Answers on a postcard please.

 

Wood.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 minutes ago, wood said:

Interesting topic..

As per my last post, both the canary and I made it through the night after sealing some entry points for this polluted air.

It did help, the Xiaomi 2S air purifier stayed on minimal power and hence low noise all night..

 

Joking aside, it has me wondering;

Scenario 1.

Hypothetically speaking, if a room is sealed and there are no air entry points, apart from those loose windows and gaps at the door, and assuming that the external air pressure and air humidity is identical to the inside air pressure and humidity, how does a room replenish its air/ oxygen content ?

The room is occupied and oxygen is being depleted and replaced with human expelled Carbon dioxide.

What are the physics involved for the depleted oxygen % to be replenished ?

Outside air has other factors to maintain and stabilise the oxygen % content that we breathe. ( pressure differentials, humidity, even wind).

It's fairly common knowledge that air pressure will fill any lower air pressure void it encounters, but as above, inside that room, this is not the case, so how does it replenish? 

 

Scenario 2.

As above, equal air pressure inside and out the room, identical humidity.

You open a larger window and expect a gust of wind to fill the room with fresh air, except it's not that simple in this case.

The assumption is that the outside oxygen molecules are chemically attracted to their counterparts inside  the room and rush in, therefore filling the room back up to the 20% oxygen  content that we need.

But, if this is the case, how does it stop and maintain at 20% ?

 

Answers on a postcard please.

 

Wood.

 

 

I think you're going to need Plod, the former science minister and boat propellers advocate, to answer those questions....

[wood]

Just now, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I think you're going to need Plod, the former science minister and boat propellers advocate, to answer those questions....

Yes he's rang me up and asked to pose the question to you all.????

[MaxYakov]

4 minutes ago, wood said:

Yes he's rang me up and asked to pose the question to you all.????

Where'd he find the time to break away from working on the drones that are dumping two liters of water at a time on the pollution?

 

Here, munch on this for a while:

 

https://www.quora.com/Can-you-run-out-of-oxygen-in-a-small-room-with-the-door-closed

 

 

[fishism]

5 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The March 5 date, if it holds, probably will be after the worst of the current smog season.  But never fear, the government here will do little to nothing to address the problem, so the same conditions will be back again next Dec. to March or so... So plenty of time to get prepared ahead of the NEXT bad smog season.

 

Does the air quality improve to a nice breathable state or are air purifiers still required all year round?

 

How do you convince a Thai that the air quality is bad? I know a lot of folk are wearing masks, 2 weeks ago I stood outside a market and counted the people walking past with masks 13 out of 300, during the past few days I have experienced about 90% or higher of people wearing masks, different area and probably people with a different mindset. Everyone visiting my home are just laughing that I am trying to clean the air and keep the door open for too long. Anything negative about thailand doesn't go down too well.

[fishism]

5 hours ago, MaxYakov said:

As I said earlier HERE:

 

"If you're thinking of using such a filter with a box fan and the filter has a charcoal odor filter, you might dump the carbon layer to get better air flow. You might also with placing just the HEPA, folded filter material component in the fan's intake rather than in it fan's output. This may require that the filter be spaced further away from the fan so as to not interfere with the fan's aerodynamic characteristics. Such a spacing would require building a simple plenum out of corrugated plastic construction material or even cardboard. At least with such a plenum you could get away with having only one smaller air purifier HEPA filter rather than two by designing the plenum to "narrow-down" with distance from a (larger width) box fan."

 

Since I have an unused Hatari HA 9218 HEPA filter lying around, I may go out and buy a box fan that is similar to the one in the DiY video and do a little experimentation with a fabricated plenum to get the filter some distance from the fan (if necessary). My PerfectBrandz PBC-333 evaporative cooler (converted to be an air purifier) works fine as a high-velocity/high-volume cooler/air purifier using a single layer of 3M Filtrete filter material only a few inches from its squirrel-cage fan - on the intake side. Of course, it was designed to push air with some air flow restriction on the intake side (the evaporative water cooling component - which was designed to be removed - and I did and essentially replaced it with the filter material).

 

 

I didn't remove the charcoal part of the filter or have a plenum so I would be interested to hear if it does work on your experiment. My son did attack the filter, although he blamed his mum, and it is a real pain to clean up trod in charcoal. 

[fishism]

3 hours ago, edwardandtubs said:

Do you really mean zero air flow? Put your hands really close and as long as you can feel some air coming through its working. This is a tried and tested method. I don't think a fan in a cardboard box with a HEPA filter on top has ever been tested but I can't see how it would work.

The fan is pointing directly upwards and the filter just resting on it, if I put a piece of paper on it, it hovers about 5-6mm, so I guess it is working.

 

6 hours ago, MaxYakov said:

As I said earlier HERE:

 

"If you're thinking of using such a filter with a box fan and the filter has a charcoal odor filter, you might dump the carbon layer to get better air flow. You might also with placing just the HEPA, folded filter material component in the fan's intake rather than in it fan's output. This may require that the filter be spaced further away from the fan so as to not interfere with the fan's aerodynamic characteristics. Such a spacing would require building a simple plenum out of corrugated plastic construction material or even cardboard. At least with such a plenum you could get away with having only one smaller air purifier HEPA filter rather than two by designing the plenum to "narrow-down" with distance from a (larger width) box fan."

 

Since I have an unused Hatari HA 9218 HEPA filter lying around, I may go out and buy a box fan that is similar to the one in the DiY video and do a little experimentation with a fabricated plenum to get the filter some distance from the fan (if necessary). My PerfectBrandz PBC-333 evaporative cooler (converted to be an air purifier) works fine as a high-velocity/high-volume cooler/air purifier using a single layer of 3M Filtrete filter material only a few inches from its squirrel-cage fan - on the intake side. Of course, it was designed to push air with some air flow restriction on the intake side (the evaporative water cooling component - which was designed to be removed - and I did and essentially replaced it with the filter material).

 

 

If i lift the filter away from the fan it does alter the fan's aerodynamic characteristics from trying to pull the filter towards the fan to pushing it away and at about 1 inch it seems to have the most amount of push (is umph the technical term?)

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, fishism said:

Does the air quality improve to a nice breathable state or are air purifiers still required all year round?

 

 

The bad season is usually from December to March or so... Red / unhealthy with readings often over 55 micrograms.

 

The rest of the year, the averages might be in the mid 20s of micrograms more or less depending on the weather, meaning well into the yellow / moderate range on the U.S. AQI scale, sometimes down to green / good, other times up to orange / unhealthy for sensitive groups.

 

With my HEPA purifiers at home, I can keep the indoors air down in the low single digits of PM2.5 micrograms, which is the good / green range.

 

So, since I have those devices, I pretty much use them year round to keep our indoor air just that clean. They run on high and use more electricity during the bad season, and on low or medium and less electricity during the rest of the year.

 

If I have the ability for us to breath good, clean air indoors, why wouldn't I take advantage of that no matter what's going on outside.

 

PS - I'm also trying to make up for all the years I live here in the past where I didn't know or pay attention to what I was breathing, and the potential health consequences of that, especially during the bad seasons.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, fishism said:

How do you convince a Thai that the air quality is bad? I know a lot of folk are wearing masks, 2 weeks ago I stood outside a market and counted the people walking past with masks 13 out of 300, during the past few days I have experienced about 90% or higher of people wearing masks, different area and probably people with a different mindset. Everyone visiting my home are just laughing that I am trying to clean the air and keep the door open for too long. Anything negative about thailand doesn't go down too well.

 

My wife came home from work today saying that a lot of the Thai staff staff in her Thai office (purchasing) had begun talking about trying to find and buy some kind of air purifiers for their homes -- only to realize upon checking that pretty much all the local retailers seem to be out of stock of everything right now.

 

There was also a similar discussion going on about the similarly unavailable PM2.5 masks, with the wife relating that some women were resorting to using the cheapo hospital/drugstore paper masks and stuffing them with feminine hygiene pads!   (I have my own supply of 3M N95 facemasks, so I think I'm going to take a pass on the feminine hygiene pads approach.)

[balo]

Anyone knows why Indonesia always have cleaner air than the rest of SE-Asia?  I have checked the map daily and its always green or yellow numbers there. 

 

 

[meltingpot2015]

schools have closed. Air quality will be bad until 3-4 February apparently:

https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/01/thick-toxic-smog-making-people-cough-blood-bangkok-pollution-crisis-8423277/ 

[fishism]

Does anyone have a pm2.5 meter I can borrow, rent or buy, I really need to know if my setup is actually working.

 

I managed to buy a module so I could build a meter but haven't been able to find a cable to connect to it, except in china but then i would just order a meter if 15 days delay was ok.