Time to stand in line at CM immigration

[Bill97]

All the reasons you give are lies. Don't you think it is illegal to knowingly make false statements to the police?


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[jimgilly]

1 hour ago, NancyL said:

I fail to see how it is illegal to decide to move to a guesthouse several days before your retirement extension is due.  Maybe your wife got tired of you and tossed you out.  Maybe you decided to remodel the place and moved out temporarily while the job was being done.  Maybe some friends came from overseas and you decided to join them at the guest house since there wasn't sufficient room in your house and the guest house was more centrally located for tourist activities. Any number of reasons why you decided to take up temporary lodging in a guesthouse.

Nancy, has anyone you know done this before because this would obviously be the easiest solution?

[scottiejohn]

1 hour ago, NancyL said:

I fail to see how it is illegal to decide to move to a guesthouse several days before your retirement extension is due.  Maybe your wife got tired of you and tossed you out.  Maybe you decided to remodel the place and moved out temporarily while the job was being done.  Maybe some friends came from overseas and you decided to join them at the guest house since there wasn't sufficient room in your house and the guest house was more centrally located for tourist activities. Any number of reasons why you decided to take up temporary lodging in a guesthouse.

I assume you are NOT advocating that the person just stays in the GH for just one day to get the TM30 into the "system" and that he then reports to IMM pretending to be still staying there.  That would be illegal!

 

You yourself acknowledge that he would be there in a temporary basis only and without a long term rental agreement/residence certificate or whatever, he is going to have big problems tying in his long term place of residency with the temporary guesthouse TM30 and with no previous history of TM30 reporting in the system. 

 

Staying in a rented property without any formal rental agreement is just asking for trouble.  Why is there no rental agreement?

Why won't the Landlord provide a rental agreement (download a simple one page from the web and fill it in).  It's easy and no problem if neither side is worried about enforcing it!

Why won't the Landlord sign the POA (because does not want to give a copy of his ID and Blue book to the authorities perhaps!

Etc, Etc

 

If there is something dodgy going on then I think you are opening up a can of worms by giving the wrong advice, especially in a public forum.

[scottiejohn]

1 hour ago, jimgilly said:

Nancy, has anyone you know done this before because this would obviously be the easiest solution?

And depending on the circumstances (see my post above)  possibly the dumbest solution!

Make it, and keep it legal is my advice, especially with Thai Immigration/Police.

 

PS;  Why don't you PM "ubonjoe" the TV Guru and MOD on all "visa" related matters for some real advice.

Edited January 29, 2018 by scottiejohn
added PS

[scottiejohn]

6 hours ago, EricTh said:

This TM 30 is a new requirement which wasn't there in 2016

Not quite true;

The requirement for foreigners to re-register their address in Thailand, even if they have lived at the same address for many years, derives from Section 37 (2) of the Thailand Immigration Act of 1979.

Likewise, under Section 38 of the same act, the “master, the owner or the possessor of the residence, or the hotel manager where the alien, receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed, must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours, dwelling place or hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. If there is no Immigration Office located in that area, the local police official for that area must be notified.”

https://www.thephuketnews.com/better-if-you-do-phuket-immigration-chief-urges-foreigners-to-re-register-addresses-even-if-staying-off-island-just-one-night-65744.php#7bAdy0673S3sFSkK.99

[evenstevens]

2 hours ago, jimgilly said:

Nancy, has anyone you know done this before because this would obviously be the easiest solution?

nancy.s soloution is the shortest way to the dunny house . do it correctly and legally as most expats have done in c.mai and bob.s your uncle its a babe.s nice arvo to all

[jimgilly]

5 hours ago, XGM said:

The landlord doesn't need to go to immigration, he just needs to fill the form and sign it. You can take it to immigration and get the receipt. At least that's what I did when I rented a condo in Bangkok. You can download those forms.

 

In my gated community here in Chiang Mai, they take care of it on their own though. About a week after we moved in they did it and gave me the receipt of the TM30 without me having to ask or even mention it.

Besides the TM30 form, what else does he need to supply, copy of his national ID, house book, etc?  And what's the process of getting the TM 30 once I go to immigration?  Is this going to be another 2 plus hour wait in line ordeal I have to go through before the bigger ordeal of actually doing my extension?

[XGM]

15 minutes ago, jimgilly said:

Besides the TM30 form, what else does he need to supply, copy of his national ID, house book, etc?  And what's the process of getting the TM 30 once I go to immigration?  Is this going to be another 2 plus hour wait in line ordeal I have to go through before the bigger ordeal of actually doing my extension?

I don't recall if signed copies of the national ID and Tabien Baan were required for the TM30 report when I did it. I had them with me anyway for the extension of stay.

 

Again, I am yet to do any of that in Chiang Mai so my experience may not be relevant for you, but in Bangkok the queue for that was a significantly shorter queue than the queue for the extension, less than 1 hour. The filing itself took a couple of minutes, you don't even sit down.

[scottiejohn]

33 minutes ago, jimgilly said:

Besides the TM30 form, what else does he need to supply, copy of his national ID, house book, etc?  And what's the process of getting the TM 30 once I go to immigration?  Is this going to be another 2 plus hour wait in line ordeal I have to go through before the bigger ordeal of actually doing my extension?

Yes I believe you need to sort out the TM30 before anything else. 

 

Yes I think you will be spending some time at Prom.  Enjoy Nancy's films.  I hope they have different films on successive days, you may need to watch them. (Don't forget your donations to Dukes)

 

Of course you could always take the easier, and most accurate and up to date option and pop down to your local CM Visa Agent and get them to advise you if you have NOT PM'd "ubonjoe", as already advised, for semi professional advice as opposed to the so called "advice" from amateurs like myself and NancyL. 

 

If you go it yourself I believe the following may help.  If he does not want to get directly involved, or is out of country, he has to sign the POA form and sign copies of his Blue book for the property and a copy of his ID card.  Must be signed in Blue Ink.  And of course a signed copy of the long term rental agreement.

 

You will then pay the 1600Baht fine (even though it is actually his fine not yours!).

 

[jimgilly]

28 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

Yes I believe you need to sort out the TM30 before anything else. 

 

Yes I think you will be spending some time at Prom.  Enjoy Nancy's films.  I hope they have different films on successive days, you may need to watch them. (Don't forget your donations to Dukes)

 

Of course you could always take the easier, and most accurate and up to date option and pop down to your local CM Visa Agent and get them to advise you if you have NOT PM'd "ubonjoe", as already advised, for semi professional advice as opposed to the so called "advice" from amateurs like myself and NancyL. 

 

If you go it yourself I believe the following may help.  If he does not want to get directly involved, or is out of country, he has to sign the POA form and sign copies of his Blue book for the property and a copy of his ID card.  Must be signed in Blue Ink.  And of course a signed copy of the long term rental agreement.

 

You will then pay the 1600Baht fine (even though it is actually his fine not yours!).

 

What do you mean I will pay a 1600 baht fine - for what? 

[Bill97]

What do you mean I will pay a 1600 baht fine - for what? 

For getting your act together, it is a dumb dumb fee.


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[scottiejohn]

14 hours ago, jimgilly said:

What do you mean I will pay a 1600 baht fine - for what? 

1600Baht is the standard fine levied by CM IMM for failure to report a change of temporary address(TM30).  (that also includes your first 10yr stay as all your stays, no matter how long are "temporary"!)

Quote from the law (see my post 65 above)

the “master, the owner or the possessor of the residence, or the hotel manager where the alien, receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed, must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours, dwelling place or hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned.

 

In your case the person responsible for the fine should be your Landlord but from your previous statements it is unlikely that he will cough up.

 

PS;  Have you contacted "ubonjoe" yet?

Edited January 30, 2018 by scottiejohn
added PS

[EricTh]

18 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

Not quite true;

The requirement for foreigners to re-register their address in Thailand, even if they have lived at the same address for many years, derives from Section 37 (2) of the Thailand Immigration Act of 1979.

Likewise, under Section 38 of the same act, the “master, the owner or the possessor of the residence, or the hotel manager where the alien, receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed, must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours, dwelling place or hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. If there is no Immigration Office located in that area, the local police official for that area must be notified.”

https://www.thephuketnews.com/better-if-you-do-phuket-immigration-chief-urges-foreigners-to-re-register-addresses-even-if-staying-off-island-just-one-night-65744.php#7bAdy0673S3sFSkK.99

sorry. what I meant was it wasn't a requirement for retirement visa back in 2016.

[CMBob]

In answer to the one question as to whether a copy of the landlord's ID and tabien baan are required, I believe the answer is yes - as that was required when my landlord filed the original TM30 (and was fined a few thousand baht because I had already been there 5 years) a couple of years back.

 

I'm always a bit surprised by those who assert it's the landlord's responsibility to file a TM30 as that's not what the law plainly says.  As quoted above, the law appears to apply equal responsibility on the "master, the owner, or the possessor of the residence."   I have no clue what they mean by "master" but the term "possessor" (i.e., tenant) seems to be fairly clear.

 

While the law has been around for a long time, the irritation is that CM Immigration just started enforcing the provision a couple of years ago, at first sporadically and nowadays seemingly fairly thoroughly.  It would have been nice for some warning and perhaps even a grace period to comply but, then again, I suppose that would be asking for too much from our local gendarmes.  Perhaps they'll require TM28 filings in the future and that process will follow the same pattern. 

 

 

[NancyL]

Not everyone who has a retirement extension is living here long-term with a rental contract.  For example, there are numerous residents at McKean/Dok Kaew who have retirement extensions, there are overseas oil-field workers who come here on their time off and may not maintain a permanent residence in Thailand, but instead rent in a guesthouse for the several weeks they're here during their rotations off work, and when we were considering relocation to Malaysia, it was our plan to continue to keep our Thai retirement extensions because we thought we'd be returning to Thailand several times a year for shopping and Rotary events.  Having a MM2H Malaysian "retirement visa" and a Thailand retirement extension isn't mutually exclusive, but we wouldn't have had a long-term rental contract here, just the TM30 from the hotel or guest house we checked into before going to obtain our retirement extension.

[jimgilly]

2 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

1600Baht is the standard fine levied by CM IMM for failure to report a change of temporary address(TM30).  (that also includes your first 10yr stay as all your stays, no matter how long are "temporary"!)

Quote from the law (see my post 65 above)

the “master, the owner or the possessor of the residence, or the hotel manager where the alien, receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed, must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours, dwelling place or hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned.

 

In your case the person responsible for the fine should be your Landlord but from your previous statements it is unlikely that he will cough up.

 

PS;  Have you contacted "ubonjoe" yet?

Don't need to - already have a solution.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

 

 

19 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

I assume you are NOT advocating that the person just stays in the GH for just one day to get the TM30 into the "system" and that he then reports to IMM pretending to be still staying there.  That would be illegal!

 

LOL.   Keep in mind that nobody is claiming anything, and nobody is even asking.  Immigration just wants to go through the motions (almost all of the time) and someone has decided that a TM30 is required now, sometimes.  You're not making any claims whatsoever other than that you were at the guesthouse on the date indicated, and there is a receipt to go with that. 

 

On 1/29/2018 at 8:06 AM, scottiejohn said:

I am amazed that you are suggesting that someone commit a crime by making a false declaration that will be spotted the minute Imm ask for his rent agreement at his next retirement renewal

 

Commit a crime..   fals declararion.. were you out of meds this morning?

 

21 hours ago, Bill97 said:

All the reasons you give are lies. Don't you think it is illegal to knowingly make false statements to the police?

 

 

Oh gawd another one..  (Nobody is making false statements. And chances are nobody will even ask, for a typical visa extension.)

 

However, I do differ slightly with Nancy on what I would do, I think I would stay the night in a guesthouse somewhere (Lamphun or Pai, ideally :) ) come back to what my actual residence is and then let the house owner process the TM30 for the place I stay at most of the time, with today or yesterday as the arrival date.   In this case nobody is doing anything but follow the letter of the law, *extremely* closely.

 

Yes yes yes.. if the planets align badly and you have an officer who's being a dick then yes, it could result in a 1600 Baht fine.  (Or 800 Baht.. fines seem negotiable in this country).  Chances are however that nobody gives a $#($&.

[jimgilly]

22 minutes ago, NancyL said:

Not everyone who has a retirement extension is living here long-term with a rental contract.  For example, there are numerous residents at McKean/Dok Kaew who have retirement extensions, there are overseas oil-field workers who come here on their time off and may not maintain a permanent residence in Thailand, but instead rent in a guesthouse for the several weeks they're here during their rotations off work, and when we were considering relocation to Malaysia, it was our plan to continue to keep our Thai retirement extensions because we thought we'd be returning to Thailand several times a year for shopping and Rotary events.  Having a MM2H Malaysian "retirement visa" and a Thailand retirement extension isn't mutually exclusive, but we wouldn't have had a long-term rental contract here, just the TM30 from the hotel or guest house we checked into before going to obtain our retirement extension.

Nancy, your statement makes sense to me and the only question I have now for you would there be a need to complete a TM28  Change of Address form?  Thanks

Edited January 30, 2018 by jimgilly

[thaibeachlovers]

22 hours ago, NancyL said:

I fail to see how it is illegal to decide to move to a guesthouse several days before your retirement extension is due.  Maybe your wife got tired of you and tossed you out.  Maybe you decided to remodel the place and moved out temporarily while the job was being done.  Maybe some friends came from overseas and you decided to join them at the guest house since there wasn't sufficient room in your house and the guest house was more centrally located for tourist activities. Any number of reasons why you decided to take up temporary lodging in a guesthouse.

Far as I know it's not illegal to move to a guesthouse, as long as you can prove you are living there. I get a letter from the management and copy of the TM 30 and that works for me.

The key words would be LIVING THERE.

If you still have a permanent address you'd be applying on that address.

[evenstevens]

21 minutes ago, NancyL said:

Not everyone who has a retirement extension is living here long-term with a rental contract.  For example and when we were considering relocation to Malaysia, it was our plan to continue to keep our Thai retirement extensions because we thought we'd be returning to Thailand several times a year for shopping and Rotary events.  Having a MM2H Malaysian "retirement visa" and a Thailand retirement extension isn't mutually exclusive, but we wouldn't have had a long-term rental contract here, just the TM30 from the hotel or guest house we checked into before going to obtain our retirement extension.

May i ask  ,  why  would  you  go to the exta burden of getting a   retirement visa here  ,when a Tourist visa would do the trick, for your returns to Thailand as explained in the above post,  in my view just a waste of time etc etc  or have i missed something

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, evenstevens said:

May i ask  ,  why  would  you  go to the exta burden of getting a   retirement visa here  ,when a Tourist visa would do the trick, for your returns to Thailand as explained in the above post,  in my view just a waste of time etc etc  or have i missed something

You have missed something. It's getting hard to enter multiple times on tourist visa or visa exempt.

Can do so at will on retirement visa as long as get re entry permit.

[FolkGuitar]

Moving back and forth to a guest house? Leave town for a day or two?

I find it interesting that people will go to such lengths to avoid a 1600 baht fine...

Half the people here drop that much on a Saturday night out without a second thought.

 

[WinnieTheKhwai]

41 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Far as I know it's not illegal to move to a guesthouse, as long as you can prove you are living there. I get a letter from the management and copy of the TM 30 and that works for me.

The key words would be LIVING THERE.

 

Right, that's why I would prefer that my house owner just processes a TM30 registration for a very recent arrival back at my main residence.   Which the house owner is obliged to do anyway, regardless of any other business you may have to take care of at immigration.

 

25 minutes ago, FolkGuitar said:

Moving back and forth to a guest house? Leave town for a day or two?

I find it interesting that people will go to such lengths to avoid a 1600 baht fine...

 

It's not my fine, and the fine is not related to applying for anything at immigration.   The house owner may want to avoid a fine of course, that's up to her.   My wife for example is pretty good at getting out of such things. I think she ended up paying 800 and that's after years of 'neglecting' to process TM30's for loads of tenants.  ('Neglecting' in quote marks because immigration only decided they cared about this not too long ago. )

 

Government in this country is real good at moving goal posts on people and then claiming it's the law all along. :)   Also noting that there are loads of other laws on the books that would be pretty damned inconvenient if they ever get around to caring about those.  Like.. showing that you've paid income tax when leaving the country. Or registering at every #$(&#$^ police station in every province you pass through.  Anyway, digressing.

 

Maybe one more thing would be good to make clear: a TM30 registration makes no claim *at all* about the duration of the stay, if it's a main residence or not, etc.  The only claim made is that a specific person checked in to stay at a particular house or apartment on a particular day.   This is why I have so much trouble with people claiming any of this could be taken as a false statement.   If anyone of yous shows up at one of my wife's places to stay for a night then she will process a TM30 whether you like it or not.  (It's her obligation to do so.)

 

This is separate from any other things a foreigner might apply for at immigration that does require a copy of a rental contract or some other registration of his residence.  (90 day report perhaps). Although I've done those too with the address as some holiday apartment I happened to be at the time.

Edited January 30, 2018 by WinnieTheKhwai

[evenstevens]

33 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You have missed something. It's getting hard to enter multiple times on tourist visa or visa exempt.

Can do so at will on retirement visa as long as get re entry permit.

I  was asking Nancy L,   not you

[WinnieTheKhwai]

11 minutes ago, evenstevens said:

I  was asking Nancy L,   not you

 

You may want to look up what a discussion forum is.

[evenstevens]

8 minutes ago, WinnieTheKhwai said:

 

You may want to look up what a discussion forum is.

no need to , my post in question was clearly and politely asking Nancy L  for her reasons  etc etc

and   i feel  that  Nancy L was the best person to answer it, as it was related to her experiences ,not someone else

please except my humble appologies,if i have caused you any grief, have a nice day

 

[EricTh]

2 hours ago, evenstevens said:

May i ask  ,  why  would  you  go to the exta burden of getting a   retirement visa here  ,when a Tourist visa would do the trick, for your returns to Thailand as explained in the above post,  in my view just a waste of time etc etc  or have i missed something

Agree. after all, Nancy would only stay less than one month each trip  and several times per year. Malaysians do that regularly without a problem.

 

Nancy would be considered a Malaysian PR now.

Edited January 30, 2018 by EricTh

[NancyL]

Thanks, folks, for pointing out the obvious to E/S.  Why horse around with tourist visas when it's fairly easy to obtain a retirement extension, esp. since I wouldn't have to do 90 day reports if traveling in-and-out of Thailand.  We were considered a move to Kota Kinabalu, which is part of a  geographically far-flung Rotary district that often has its district meetings in Bangkok, which isn't part of the district, but has cheap air connections to all parts of the district and excellent hotel rates.  (This is how we first learned about Borneo, going to that district's Rotary meetings in Bangkok because the language of that district is English.)

[scottiejohn]

4 hours ago, jimgilly said:

Don't need to - already have a solution.

And pray tell are we going to be privy to this "solution" now that a number of us have tried to help.

[evenstevens]

. my view was the taxation issues that you have raised in thecmai forum to hold a retirement visa  here whilst living in  malaysia nancy  it  certainly appears that u have mellowed a long way towards the zoo in very recent times lol    many thks for your reply

Edited January 30, 2018 by evenstevens