German minister warns Israel it faces growing frustration in Europe

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, Kiwiken said:

There is a 4th solution a single state , Democratic and equal. But that is a big ask to two bitter opponents. I would more see sadly a single state divided by gerrymander and social apartheid

I can't see any solution in which the Israelis can't live behind big walls separate from millions of people that want to kill them all in revenge for occupation.

IMO the present situation will continue till an American president is elected that will not use the veto to protect Israel.

Whatever, I can't see anything in the long term that ends well for Israel, or Israelis. The world is turning against Israel, slowly but surely, and Israel's only friend is the US. Everything changes, and as you sow, so shall you reap etc.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Just to let you know I read your reply, but I see no point in debating something when you and I have no intention of compromising our positions. We will obviously never agree.

Have a nice day.

 

Just another way of avoiding discussion of a point of view which cannot be substantiated. This is not about "compromising position" - that would imply your "position" holds merit or is based on anything other than a biased take of facts. It is a fact that the Palestinians had (yet another) choice, and chose badly. It is a fact that the blockade is maintained by Egypt as well. 

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I don't need to "read your mind", just recall previous topics where this came up. You weren't all that coy about it - why pretend otherwise?

I am wondering what about my posts that is "extreme". I don't think I have advocated anything that is such. Please enlighten us.

I'm certainly curious as to what it might be.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Just another way of avoiding discussion of a point of view which cannot be substantiated. This is not about "compromising position" - that would imply your "position" holds merit or is based on anything other than a biased take of facts. It is a fact that the Palestinians had (yet another) choice, and chose badly. It is a fact that the blockade is maintained by Egypt as well. 

Ah, that's it. I am biased, and my positions hold no merit, while yours apparently do.

That's exactly why I see no point in any further debate with you.

Bye.

[Rimmer]

A troll post and  a reply have been removed

[simple1]

23 hours ago, RichardColeman said:

Just wait until all those imported Muslims start making their way into the government in years to come - Israel will really get a hiding !

European Islamist politicians will dictate NATO decision making? How about a forecast timeline supported by facts

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, simple1 said:

European Islamist politicians will dictate NATO decision making? How about a forecast timeline supported by facts

How about 3 generations away?

[simple1]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

How about 3 generations away?

Supported by facts? - No

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

Not so much a "morality lecture", more a political analysis.

Fair enough. I was kind of joking.

[Morch]

21 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

there is simply too much hatred stored up on both side

 

Agree 100%.

By not having resolved the situation in the 70s Israel is only gaining enemies every day of occupation. I don't know how much they spend on the military, but it must be humungous, and young Israelis are being turned into brutes by having to enforce it. Not a good scenario at all.

Nothing stays the same, and Palestinians are reproducing at a greater rate than Israelis................................

 

The problem for Israel is simple, but the solution is extremely complicated:

1/Continue the occupation and eventually the world turns against them. One day the US will have a president that won't use the veto to save them

2/Two state solution with millions of PO Palestinians wanting revenge for the occupation

3/Annex Palestinian land outright- what to do with the people that live on it? What will the world do about outright land theft?

 

 

Israel is not, in fact, "only gaining enemies every day of occupation". Despite fantasies and illusions pushed, Israel is not actually an international outcast. Not even close.

 

The issue of how the occupation effects Israeli society is relevant, but it ought to be pointed out that similar (if not worse) issues effect Palestinian society. Not that posters usually dwell on this, of course, doesn't fit the narrative.

 

How does the previously expressed demand for Israel to withdraw from the Palestinian territories relate to the supposed second "solution" ? ("Two state solution with millions of PO Palestinians wanting revenge for the occupation").

 

 

[Morch]

12 hours ago, Thorgal said:

 

OP is about a GERMAN politician who expresses his opinion agains ISRAEL.

 

He didn't specify his opinion to JEWS only.

 

Israel has a minority of +20% of Arabs, read Muslims...

 

Perhaps you gonna lecture in a future thread about those same Arabs/Muslims to prove the Israeli social integrity...to the region...

 

I don't think that Gabriel's opinions are "against Israel", I'm sure yours are. A more accurate description would be that his views oppose those of the Israeli government, and the Israeli political right wing.

[Morch]

9 hours ago, Kiwiken said:

There is a 4th solution a single state , Democratic and equal. But that is a big ask to two bitter opponents. I would more see sadly a single state divided by gerrymander and social apartheid

 

I would venture that positing this as a realistically applicable solution ignores a whole lot of issues pertaining to both societies, even disregarding the mechanics of the conflict.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I am wondering what about my posts that is "extreme". I don't think I have advocated anything that is such. Please enlighten us.

I'm certainly curious as to what it might be.

 

 

You have posted your opposition and rejection of Israel's very existence, more than once in the past. That might not count as extreme in your book, though.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Ah, that's it. I am biased, and my positions hold no merit, while yours apparently do.

That's exactly why I see no point in any further debate with you.

Bye.

 

You are biased, that's a fact. And the positions you posted above do not, indeed, hold much merit. Notably, you do not address the actual points raised vs. your positions, but focus instead on their rejection. That you cannot support them other then by playing a supposed victim card is telling.

[Air Smiles]

On 01/02/2018 at 8:11 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

 

I hope this time the EU actually does something, instead of just blah, blah, blah.

Time for an anti Sth Africa apartheid style world wide campaign, till Israel withdraws from the illegally occupied territories, East Jerusalem, removes the blockade of Gaza by land and sea, and recognises the Palestinian right to be a nation.

 

Treat Israel like any other rogue state and impose sanctions.

[Morch]

13 minutes ago, Air Smiles said:

 

Treat Israel like any other rogue state and impose sanctions.

 

Israel is not a "rogue state", and not all "rogue states" (even if there was a generally agreed upon definition) are treated in the same manner.

[manarak]

On 2/1/2018 at 2:43 PM, Jingthing said:

He makes very good points, but the optics of a German giving morality lectures to Jews is still a bit much. 

 a very racist point of view.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, manarak said:

 a very racist point of view.

A very flaming post. 

[Jingthing]

26 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Israel is not a "rogue state", and not all "rogue states" (even if there was a generally agreed upon definition) are treated in the same manner.

I agree Israel is most certainly not a rogue state, but it's not surprising that the more extreme Israel demonization agenda would be pushing for sanctions, BDS, etc. While Israel is right to see those calls as a threat, I don't think it will amount to much.  Trading with Israel is something most major countries will want to continue to do in their own self interest given Israel's leadership in technological, military, and medical fields. But in the long run IF Israel does degrade to a non-ambiguous one state apartheid state, the sanctions/BDS threat will likely become much more serious. 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Jingthing

[persimmon]

Putins Russia thought they had a historic claim to the Crimea,so they invaded and occupied it.Israel did the same with the Palestinian areas.The way the international community responded has been different.While sanctions have been imposed on Russia,Israel has recieved massive aid from the US.Talk about double standards.

[Sir Dude]

These days, it seems that aggressive land grabs are OK as no-one actually wants to go to war because it will be too destructive and many are slaves to the trade factor....corporatism has won. Principles and values have been thrown on the fire now. 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Sir Dude

[Jingthing]

Putins Russia thought they had a historic claim to the Crimea,so they invaded and occupied it.Israel did the same with the Palestinian areas.The way the international community responded has been different.While sanctions have been imposed on Russia,Israel has recieved massive aid from the US.Talk about double standards.

It's not the same situation at all. Different situations are different situations.

Maybe familiarize yourself with basic history and get back to us.

The Israel Palestinian conflict is extremely unique.

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

[Thorgal]

10 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I don't think that Gabriel's opinions are "against Israel", I'm sure yours are. A more accurate description would be that his views oppose those of the Israeli government, and the Israeli political right wing.

 

It's not new that non-Jewish extreme right factions in Europe and elsewhere support in vain the Israeli (government) policies. Just because they both discriminate Arab/Muslim culture.

 

I was pointing out the political POV of Gabriel. Not the racial, or religious card played previously by another poster by pushing the 'crocodile-tears' agenda.

 

That's a more accurate description of my opinion.

 

 

[bandito]

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 2:33 PM, hansnl said:

The German foreign minister isn't aware of the growing frustration with the hun in Europe and the US?

He probably isn't aware also the muslim arabs do not want peace but want a "Judenrein" middle east?

Forgive him, he is most certainly blinded by the glorious german past.

 

That's telling him!

Very good.

[bandito]

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 2:43 PM, Jingthing said:

He makes very good points, but the optics of a German giving morality lectures to Jews is still a bit much. 

It is!

I experienced the 2nd WW in Europe, (yes, I am that old) as a very young boy and hearing this people talk like that makes me puke.

The Germans ( Germanen) are an warrior tribe and will always look for expansion by force or other means.

[bandito]

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 2:47 PM, simple1 said:

Strange comments; take off the far right tinfoil hat. Today's German government policy is as a friend of Israel, as is the FM. 

 

Germany a friend of Israel?

Joke of the day.

 

[simple1]

9 minutes ago, bandito said:

 

Germany a friend of Israel?

Joke of the day.

 

Wrong

[dexterm]

OP...
"In a thinly veiled threat about cutting off aid, he said some members of Israel's cabinet were "explicitly against the two-state solution" but that such a solution "has always been the foundation of our engagement for Israeli-Palestinian peace and for the large amount of funding" from Germany and Europe.
These – at best mixed – signals do not go unnoticed in Europe, where there is clearly growing frustration with Israel's actions," he told an Israeli security conference. Gabriel cited disagreements even within his own Social Democratic Party about what some see as "unfair" treatment of the Palestinians."

... Gabriel is being generous using the term mixed signals. Netanyahu's entire cabinet, himself included, are all on record saying never in my lifetime a Palestinian state.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/05/state-palestine-israel-zionist-150527070943455.html

 

Paying lip service to negotiating a two state solution is a charade Israel plays to distract the world while they continue the occupation and expansion of their illegal colonies. It is a game that so far has suited US and EU politicians too, so that they can pretend to be supporting peace negotiations, while remaining Israel's largest trading partner. (a weapon they could use if they really want change).

Gabriel pointed out that there is a growing frustration with Israel especially amongst younger voters regarding this smoke and mirrors routine.

 

In a fuller version of The German Foreign Minister's OP speech quoted in Haaretz, he points out the 4 options that Israel faces:

1. Continue to manage the conflict head in the sand while the problems grow.
2. A viable two state solution based on 67 borders with Jerusalem as the shared capital.
3. Israel annexing the West Bank, while continuing to deny the indigenous population equal rights = apartheid.
4. A single democratic binational state.

 

"How do you want Israel's future to look like? Are you prepared to pay the price of perpetual occupation and conflict - a price that will continue to grow if there is no hope for self-determination on the Palestinian side? Are you willing to bear the consequences of fully fledged annexation - a one-state reality of unequal rights? Or are you ready to accept a single democratic state between the sea and the river?"
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/german-fm-is-israel-prepared-to-pay-price-of-perpetual-occupation-1.5783841

 

With legislation to annex more of the West Bank, with the mad men in the White House cheerleading, it looks like Israel is currently heading towards option #3 overt apartheid, which will be a game changer as far as world reaction is concerned.

 

The German minister's speech may be a last gasp attempt to get Israel to see sense. He may also be laying the groundwork for some sort of  P5+1 internatonal peace conference, now that the US admin have disqualified themselves as honest brokers.
 

Edited February 3, 2018 by dexterm

[Morch]

 

@dexterm

 

As usual, you can't seem to make a post without going into your default propaganda mode.

 

Israel is not the only side to this conflict, and hardly the only side displaying intransigence when it comes to negotiations. It is not the case that the Palestinian side is ready and willing (not to mention able) to negotiate or to reach a compromise.

 

As for what Netanyahu says  - he says a whole lot of things, most dictated by the direction in which the winds assuring his political survival blow. And once more, you gloss over Palestinian leaders displaying similar behavior - saying one thing, then another, depending on circumstances and venues.

 

There is no requirement that the EU and the US will side with the Palestinians, as you do. There is little indication that either is anywhere near adopting your extreme views.

 

Asking, as Gabriel does, where Israel is heading and what are its intentions, is fair enough and a good question. But as pointed above, it is only half of the equation.

 

 

[Morch]

13 hours ago, persimmon said:

Putins Russia thought they had a historic claim to the Crimea,so they invaded and occupied it.Israel did the same with the Palestinian areas.The way the international community responded has been different.While sanctions have been imposed on Russia,Israel has recieved massive aid from the US.Talk about double standards.

 

Not really "the same". Israel did not invade the "Palestinian areas" (which were occupied and annexed, respectively, by Egypt and Jordan) due to "historic claims". Not whining about double standards with regard to the Jordanian annexation of the West Bank, or the Egyptian occupation of the Gaza Strip, eh? And not about to mention decades of Palestinian rejectionism (fueled and supported by sponsoring Arab states). The US, by the way, provides aid to the Palestinians as well.