Yingluck gets ready to make her move

[robblok]

1 minute ago, Becker said:

1. Just out of curiosity what is my "side of the fence"?

2. I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself but here goes:

Thailand's endless cycle of coups must end and something else must be tried. Let democracy have a chance without the interference of an entrenched elite. This does in no way guarantee a positive outcome but as Einstein said; "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results”.

I had the idea you were a socialist or something like that those are usually the people who preach revolution. 

 

Let democracy have a chance.. sure.. but is it still a democracy if you put your friends in places of power to destroy all checks and balances. (not saying this is a Shin only thing just look at the junta doing exactly the same). In my book in a democracy fair investigations can be launched against people who are suspected of corruption or other crimes. Here in Thailand you see that every time a government gets in power they try to put their friends in places so they themselves become untouchable and uncheckable. I don't really see that as a real democracy. I also don't see it changing as its how it always goes here.

 

Do I have an alternative.. no I don't. Do I want an other coup.. no I dont. 

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, Becker said:

You mean if they rig the system so that they're no longer accountable to the voters like the junta has done? Of course not.

And just to be clear (and as I have stated ad nauseam); I do not support the Shins. On the contrary, I detest them. I just support the people's right to vote them into power.

The junta is not the solution.. but the Democrats / PTP ect try to rig it too. The moment they are in power they start shifting police chefs around, try to get their hand on other people of power and build a wall around them so they can't be touched anymore.

[CGW]

54 minutes ago, Becker said:

It's been tried all over the world and doesn't work? Now you're just repeating RickBradford's inane "argument" against democracy. He even lists China as having tried and failed in turning democratic!

Tried all over the world it has and in the vast majority of cases a transition from junta rule to democracy has been a resounding success. Do I really have to list all the countries with past junta rulers who today are thriving (albeit in some cases struggling) democracies???

My interpretation of of 'democracy" is illusion of choice! f anyone can prove me wrong and show me a true democratic society - I'm all ears.

[Becker]

Just now, CGW said:

My interpretation of of 'democracy" is illusion of choice! f anyone can prove me wrong and show me a true democratic society - I'm all ears.

First you have to give me your definition of a true democratic society.

[Becker]

10 minutes ago, robblok said:

I had the idea you were a socialist or something like that those are usually the people who preach revolution. 

I am not a socialist and I don't "preach revolution" - please don't put words in my mouth. I'm only saying that Thailand needs change.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Becker

[cornishcarlos]

I like the saying "if your vote made a difference, then they wouldn't let you vote"

 

So Junta, just let them vote. Surely you have enough mechanisms in place by now to retain power no mater what the outcome !!

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, Becker said:

I am not a socialist and I don't "preach revolution" - please don't put words in my mouth. I'm only saying that Thailand needs change.

I agree 100% Thailand needs change, must have misread about you and how you wanted your change. 

 

I just don't feel that a violent uprising is needed, i also don't think it would accomplish anything. Just changing one elite for an other.. without a real viable alternative there won't be any chance.

 

But yes Thailand needs a change and I certainly don't support the elites who sell their products to expensive and pay far to less salary to those they employ. 

[robblok]

4 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Thaksin doubled Thailands GDP and paid off their IMF loan early removing Thailand from the poverty inducing burdon of debt by balancing the budget and producing a fiscal surplus.  He doubled wages in some of the poorest areas, reduced abject poverty from 20% to 10%, brought free healthcare to 96% of the population, some 20% of which had never had access to healthcare before, as well as bringing free healthcare to the underrepresented migrant workforce.  If you were to bizarrely attempt to measure poverty by percentage of farmers reliant on subsidies then you would have to conclude that the UK is a third world country, but by using normal measures it is clear that Thaksin reduced poverty, you also might care to note that a great deal of those lifted from poverty are not land owners in receipt of subsidies anyway, they are low level workers in receipt of the minimum wage and also those who do not work, children, pensioners, unemployed and disabled, a great deal more of which lived in genuine poverty unable to even afford the medicines they needed before Thaksin.  

 

Your backpedaling.. you said lifted them out of poverty (that is not the same as reduced).. that clearly has not happened. Thaksin brought healthcare to the population but failed to fund it (and so did all governments after him democrats too). Toon had to run to get funding for hospitals.. or did you miss that. Its easy to implement something and then not fund it enough.

 

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by robblok

[Proboscis]

I wonder how the Thais feel about China now. I mean they let the Chinese have that Swedish citizen (but originally chinese) without even going through extradition, apparently. And now the Chinese let Yinluck and Taksin walk around and be photographed in Beijing. It would only take one Chinese government official to put the ban on photographing them to stop it. So much for the Thailand turning towards China.

[Odysseus123]

3 minutes ago, Proboscis said:

I wonder how the Thais feel about China now. I mean they let the Chinese have that Swedish citizen (but originally chinese) without even going through extradition, apparently. And now the Chinese let Yinluck and Taksin walk around and be photographed in Beijing. It would only take one Chinese government official to put the ban on photographing them to stop it. So much for the Thailand turning towards China.

The Chinese would micturate on them from a great height of course..

 

When you have your  snout dug deeply into the trough, happily gorging away, you are not likely to feel anything..other than immense pleasure

[thaiguzzi]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

Your funny if you really believe this, as others have said this has been tried all over the word and the Shins are as corrupt as the rest without a real non corrupt alternative there is no hope. Anyone seeing the Shins as non corrupt saviors is crazy. Right now there is NOBODY there who could bring change.

 

Coups don't fix anything.. but neither do bloody revolutions. Maybe only satisfy the blood thirst of certain members. Your not alone in proposing it.. though at least you not favor it.

This SE Asia. Everywhere is corrupted. Even as far as South Korea (not SE Asia I know...). Some more, some less.

All the politicians were, are and will be, corrupt to some level.

But again you are wrong, ie your hatred for all things RED, started by Mr T. Sure he was corrupt, as stated, who isn't out here.

But, boy, did he sure bring change, for the better, which, to this day, is still being felt.

And yes, to the vast majority of people outside BKK, who suddenly had a voice, and someone in power who listened, he was, indeed, a savior.

That's why he is so despised by the elite, amongst other things...

[Becker]

14 minutes ago, robblok said:

I agree 100% Thailand needs change, must have misread about you and how you wanted your change. 

 

I just don't feel that a violent uprising is needed, i also don't think it would accomplish anything. Just changing one elite for an other.. without a real viable alternative there won't be any chance.

 

But yes Thailand needs a change and I certainly don't support the elites who sell their products to expensive and pay far to less salary to those they employ. 

I never said violent uprising is needed. I have lived here for almost 25 years and I'm the last person to wish the country descend into chaos. What I'm saying is that unfortunately it might be unavoidable, especially in light of how the latest junta is clinging to power. Most previous juntas have been able to see the writing on the wall and have made a "tactical withdrawal" but the present bunch of dinos seem hell bent on maintaining their place at the trough.

[Kieran00001]

6 minutes ago, robblok said:

Your backpedaling.. you said lifted them out of poverty (that is not the same as reduced).. that clearly has not happened. Thaksin brought healthcare to the population but failed to fund it (and so did all governments after him democrats too). Toon had to run to get funding for hospitals.. or did you miss that. Its easy to implement something and then not fund it enough.

 

 

 

I backpeddled as you asked me to clarify, moving on would not have answered your question, did you really not see that?  Lifting a percentage of the population from poverty is the same as reducing Thailands poverty, can you really not understand that?  Thaksin brought universal healthcare and increased health funding for the poor by 400%, it was enough to reduce infant mortality from 135/1000 to 10/1000, you would have to be one very sick puppy to deny that no longer seeing 13% of your kids die before they are 5 years old is not an improvement to remember.

 

 

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, thaiguzzi said:

This SE Asia. Everywhere is corrupted. Even as far as South Korea (not SE Asia I know...). Some more, some less.

All the politicians were, are and will be, corrupt to some level.

But again you are wrong, ie your hatred for all things RED, started by Mr T. Sure he was corrupt, as stated, who isn't out here.

But, boy, did he sure bring change, for the better, which, to this day, is still being felt.

And yes, to the vast majority of people outside BKK, who suddenly had a voice, and someone in power who listened, he was, indeed, a savior.

That's why he is so despised by the elite, amongst other things...

Thaksin acted exactly like the junta is acting now.. arrogant corrupt and was getting more power all the time. He would have become a dictator. Anyway the same reasons I started to hate Thaksin are the reason I now hate the junta. Though hate is in both cases a bit extreme as it does not keep me up at night or worry me.

 

[Baerboxer]

4 hours ago, AGareth2 said:

then why do they keep going on about it

why not keep quiet?

 

Because, as with other little gems they spout, they expect the internal audience to believe it all. They think everyone believes they're moving heaven and earth to get her back and it's all those uncooperative inept foreigners fault there being thwarted. Just like the expect everyone to believe what's said about watches, expenses to Hawaii, submarines and everything else. 

All about face and the belief that they're so important they can say anything and it will be graciously accepted.

 

And they're not the only ones to be fair.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, lovelomsak said:

You keep going on about the corrupt Shins.

 If the people want them and vote them in then they are the  corrupt the people want it is the peoples choice get over it.

 You cannot buy the loyalty the poor have for the Shins have.

 

Why not? The Shinawatras did.

[robblok]

10 minutes ago, Becker said:

I never said violent uprising is needed. I have lived here for almost 25 years and I'm the last person to wish the country descend into chaos. What I'm saying is that unfortunately it might be unavoidable, especially in light of how the latest junta is clinging to power. Most previous juntas have been able to see the writing on the wall and have made a "tactical withdrawal" but the present bunch of dinos seem hell bent on maintaining their place at the trough.

Ok not a native speaker.. unavoidable and needed...  seems to me quite close related.

 

I just don't want to see chaos and violence here again. A civil war is not something people should be wanting. 

[Artisi]

3 hours ago, hansnl said:

You seem to like the idea this might eventually lead to a civil war?

You really want the Thai people to stand up to each other?

The Shins will do anything to get back in power.

 

they might even lie and cause trouble .

Not a complete fan of the junta, but I am not against them ensuring the Shins are excluded from any future dealings in Thailand.

[baboon]

49 minutes ago, cornishcarlos said:

I like the saying "if your vote made a difference, then they wouldn't let you vote"

 

So Junta, just let them vote. Surely you have enough mechanisms in place by now to retain power no mater what the outcome !!

Indeed, but after an election they would have to drop Article 44. They would have to allow the scrutiny of a much freer press. They would have to account for themselves in parliament. Even they must know they would make a complete backside of it - What is Prayuth going to do when he is getting trounced in a debate and cannot simply storm off in a sulk? What is Prawit going to do when people ask him the time every 5 minutes and snigger behind his back? They are screwed without the 'Look, just shut up about it Or Else' option.

 

Be great to see it and watch them unravel, mind....

Edited February 18, 2018 by baboon

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, MaeJoMTB said:

More of a racial/cultural/language divide IMHO

Reds (aka Lao people) Vs Yellows (aka Siam people)

 

If I may quote .....

"Speakers of Lao in the North and Northeast have seen the prime minister they elected into office dismissed by the courts twice, overthrown in a coup twice, and election results nullified twice. Such antics, if continued, could provoke resistance and rebellion along age-old and not-completely-forgotten ethnic lines."

https://isaanrecord.com/2015/09/02/guest-editorial-thai-has-the-highest-percentage-of-second-language-speakers-among-major-languages/

 

Only Yingluck wasn't overthrown in a coup was she? She was removed from office for corruption prior to the coup. 

 

And her brother Thaksin wasn't legally the PM when he was removed was he? He resigned as Caretaker PM after dissolving parliament and then pushed out his replacement and re-took the position on no authority or legality other than his own whim! Hardly a champion of democracy.

 

Had the Shins got their full Amnesty and brought him home untouchable, and remained in power, he'd mirror his close mate Hun Sen in moving towards a family based dictatorship with laws used to suppress opposition and critics with trumped up charges and the dismantling of checks and balances and prohibiting of public criticism.

 

The Junta, with all its warts and double standards isn't the answer but neither is a return to same old Shin kelptocracies. 

 

Thailand needs real reforms to make transformational change. And the Shins will be no more interested in that than the Junta or the old elites.

[cornishcarlos]

2 minutes ago, baboon said:

What is Prayuth going to do when he is getting trounced in a debate

 

Do they actually have debates in Thailand ?? Never seen it on the TV like you do in other countries.

[baboon]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

That your crazy, you havent even started a topic yourself. Just look at how many topics (non political) i started. Your totally delusional maybe you read the red book too much and it affected your brain.

 

I have been an active member of this forum for years posting countless fitness and health related topics, fishing topics and things about IT and motorcycles. You on the other hand have never ever started a topic and seem to be mainly posting in political topics if one of us is more likely to be paid for it is you (and I am not saying you are)

We certainly have our differences, but I do not believe for a moment you are a paid shill.

[Becker]

10 minutes ago, Artisi said:

they might even lie and cause trouble .

Not a complete fan of the junta, but I am not against them ensuring the Shins are excluded from any future dealings in Thailand.

Are you for ensuring the old elite (of which the leadership of the armed forces is very much a part) is excluded from any future dealings?

[robblok]

6 minutes ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

Give him a month the explain himself. Then another month and another....

They only do that when your in a position of power

[tartempion]

Yingluck is totally incompetent to run anything.
As for Thailand, this country is still stuck for many decades to come in two centuries ago thanks to the feudal system in power. Lousy school system, lousy railroad system, lousy police corps, lousy drivers with zero clues how to behave on the roads, the country is a giant trash bin.
There is little hope really


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[Odysseus123]

2 minutes ago, tartempion said:

Yingluck is totally incompetent to run anything.
As for Thailand, this country is still stuck for many decades to come in two centuries ago thanks to the feudal system in power. Lousy school system, lousy railroad system, lousy police corps, lousy drivers with zero clues how to behave on the roads, the country is a giant trash bin.
There is little hope really


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

Well...what can I say...so I refer you to "Robblok" and his very few Caucasian followers..

[candide]

20 minutes ago, robblok said:

But both are not preferred and you can complain about both, why accept either one ?

It's just that in one case, people have the options to accept or not. In the other case, there are no options.

[Becker]

6 minutes ago, candide said:

It's just that in one case, people have the options to accept or not. In the other case, there are no options.

Hear, hear!

[RickBradford]

2 hours ago, Becker said:

Now you're just repeating RickBradford's inane "argument" against democracy. He even lists China as having tried and failed in turning democratic!

I never alluded to 'democracy' anywhere in my post. Nor did I make any reference to China 'turning democratic'. You just made that up.

 

Debate all you like, but do stop making up stuff and attributing it to other posters in order to make a point. That's infantile.

[Eligius]

42 minutes ago, tartempion said:

Yingluck is totally incompetent to run anything.
As for Thailand, this country is still stuck for many decades to come in two centuries ago thanks to the feudal system in power. Lousy school system, lousy railroad system, lousy police corps, lousy drivers with zero clues how to behave on the roads, the country is a giant trash bin.
There is little hope really


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

Yes, but the country has been deliberately held down and backward - so that the tiny percentage of heartless 'elites' at the top can ride roughshod over all the much, much poorer and disenfranchised 'minions' beneath them.

 

As for Yingluck: incompetent though she may have been, she did at least keep her election promises to the electorate (rare amongst politicians of all stripes) and did allow freedom of speech and mass demonstrations against her.

 

The present bunch are even too terrified to allow a single guy to sit in a shopping mall and read aloud George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four. What brave and valiant warriors for peace, openness, discussion, freedom, truth and justice the junta are!

 

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Eligius