Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

No, you can thank Blair and Cameron for this willfully-installed house of several hundreds of grovelling political zombies. There are very few serious politicians left in the UK, if you were to apply that description truthfully. The House of Lords today is not fit for purpose except in a puppet show.

 

The HoL have prevented the PM enacting government by executive decree and forced the government to place their decisions before our parliament.

 

What’s not to like?

[CG1 Blue]

7 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

 

 

 

It could have happened a few years ago but several MPs voted against the govt to block it - interesting which ones they were...

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/evening-standard-comment-brexiteers-change-their-tune-on-lords-power-a3828121.html


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Fair point, but this is the Evening Standard - George Osborne's mouthpiece. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.

[Orac]

Fair point, but this is the Evening Standard - George Osborne's mouthpiece. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.

Yes - he does have a bit of a grudge and comments now have the taint of current politics/Brexit which were not as relevant at the time. Couple of articles from the the time of the Lords Reform debates are less tainted - the first refers to JRM at the end and the second is purely a list of MPs who rebelled so no political bias either way from the BBC.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-18782379

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-18793449



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[Kieran00001]

58 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Effectively what I meant. I have said before it is about time the MP's earned their keep. At the moment all the taxpayer gets is a bunch of monkeys being yanked around by the party leader, and certainly not on peanuts.

 

Then vote Green, they are the only party trying to end the party whip system.

[HAKAPALITA]

[billd766]

3 hours ago, nauseus said:

No, you can thank Blair and Cameron for this willfully-installed house of several hundreds of grovelling political zombies. There are very few serious politicians left in the UK, if you were to apply that description truthfully. The House of Lords today is not fit for purpose except in a puppet show.

 

 

Most of the current HoL are political hacks that were given a non hereditary title as a "reward" for faithful service to the "party". Most are non elected and have no responsibility to the public. 

[Kieran00001]

30 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Most of the current HoL are political hacks that were given a non hereditary title as a "reward" for faithful service to the "party". Most are non elected and have no responsibility to the public. 

 

 I'm not sure that most are unelected, it used to be the norm to only give life peers from the elected house, I think Brown was the first to give any real number of unelected members peerages, and then Cameron did the same, but that wouldn't account for most, more like about 150 out of the 800 odd seats.  And of course unelected peers are very important, without them those who want unelected peerages abolished would have no representation in the house, whereas there are actually 116 peers who support their own abolition. 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Kieran00001

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The HoL have prevented the PM enacting government by executive decree and forced the government to place their decisions before our parliament.

 

What’s not to like?

As I said it already, why ask?

[nauseus]

9 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Most are non elected, of course, but do you mean that they were never elected because I'm not sure that most weren't, it was the norm to only give life peers from the elected house, I think Brown was the first to give any real number of unelected members peerages, and then Cameron did the same, but that wouldn't account for most, more like about 50 out of the 800 odd seats.  And of course unelected peers are very important, without them those who want unelected peerages abolished would have no representation in the house, whereas there are actually 116 peers who support their own abolition. 

Blair created more monsters than anyone.

[Kieran00001]

1 hour ago, HAKAPALITA said:

 

 

Powell spent his first 11 years as an MP condoning free immigration for the Commonwealth, he was questioned on it in 1956 and stated that he was against putting any control on immigration.  While he was Minister of Health he oversaw recruitment drives in the West Indies that brought the NHS staff.  In his campaign in the 1964 election he said, “I have set and always will set my face like flint against making any difference between one citizen of this country and another on grounds of his origin,”.  Then he stood for leader of the Tory party and lost, and lost badly, and it was then that he started voicing a racist opinion, to try to win some votes, you would have to have been a fool to have fallen for Powell's game, he was just a slimy politician.

 

[malagateddy]

 
 
Powell spent his first 11 years as an MP condoning free immigration for the Commonwealth, he was questioned on it in 1956 and stated that he was against putting any control on immigration.  While he was Minister of Health he oversaw recruitment drives in the West Indies that brought the NHS staff.  In his campaign in the 1964 election he said, “I have set and always will set my face like flint against making any difference between one citizen of this country and another on grounds of his origin,”.  Then he stood for leader of the Tory party and lost, and lost badly, and it was then that he started voicing a racist opinion, to try to win some votes, you would have to have been a fool to have fallen for Powell's game, he was just a slimy politician.
 

He was 100% correct re the eu..he saw right through the deceit and lies

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[Kieran00001]

6 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

He was 100% correct re the eu..he saw right through the deceit and lies

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 

He saw right through his electorate, he changed his opinion out of political aspiration, that was clear in my above post.

[nauseus]

17 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

 

Powell spent his first 11 years as an MP condoning free immigration for the Commonwealth, he was questioned on it in 1956 and stated that he was against putting any control on immigration.  While he was Minister of Health he oversaw recruitment drives in the West Indies that brought the NHS staff.  In his campaign in the 1964 election he said, “I have set and always will set my face like flint against making any difference between one citizen of this country and another on grounds of his origin,”.  Then he stood for leader of the Tory party and lost, and lost badly, and it was then that he started voicing a racist opinion, to try to win some votes, you would have to have been a fool to have fallen for Powell's game, he was just a slimy politician.

 

Below is from Wiki but good enough to show up your false composition:

 

After his speech on immigration in 1968, Powell's political opponents sometimes alleged that he had, when Minister of Health, recruited immigrants from the Commonwealth into the National Health Service (NHS). However, the Minister of Health was not responsible for recruitment (this was left to health authorities)^[9]:286 and Sir George Godber, Chief Medical Officer for Her Majesty's Government in England from 1960–1973, stated that the allegation was "bunk...absolute rubbish. There was no such policy".^[9]:597 Powell's biographer Simon Heffer also stated that the claim "is a complete untruth. As Powell's biographer I have been thoroughly through the Ministry of Health papers at the Public Record Office and have found no evidence to support this assertion".^[29] 

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

He saw right through his electorate, he changed his opinion out of political aspiration, that was clear in my above post.

As clear as the BS it is.

[Grouse]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44053408

 

Please discuss and contrast

 

On my desk tomorrow morning!

[nauseus]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44053408

 

Please discuss and contrast

 

On my desk tomorrow morning!

Finished! I got as far as "Verhofstadt" and nearly binned it.

 

Lots of nice ideas but no detail of what they are and no mention of what the cost would be, either financially or via commitments/obligations. The Swiss were smart but they won't let us have 100+ nitty pikki agreements.

 

 

 

[StreetCowboy]

1 hour ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

 

Powell spent his first 11 years as an MP condoning free immigration for the Commonwealth, he was questioned on it in 1956 and stated that he was against putting any control on immigration.  While he was Minister of Health he oversaw recruitment drives in the West Indies that brought the NHS staff.  In his campaign in the 1964 election he said, “I have set and always will set my face like flint against making any difference between one citizen of this country and another on grounds of his origin,”.  Then he stood for leader of the Tory party and lost, and lost badly, and it was then that he started voicing a racist opinion, to try to win some votes, you would have to have been a fool to have fallen for Powell's game, he was just a slimy politician.

 

I think the opinion that he expressed in the famed "Rivers of blood" speech was on the hazards of unfettered immigration, and did not suggest that citizens should be favoured or otherwise based on the nationality of their parents or of their country of birth.  British people are British, whatever they look like, their accent or which church they pray in.  (excluding the differentiation against, for example, British Nationals (Overseas), for example. 

[Kieran00001]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Below is from Wiki but good enough to show up your false composition:

 

After his speech on immigration in 1968, Powell's political opponents sometimes alleged that he had, when Minister of Health, recruited immigrants from the Commonwealth into the National Health Service (NHS). However, the Minister of Health was not responsible for recruitment (this was left to health authorities)^[9]:286 and Sir George Godber, Chief Medical Officer for Her Majesty's Government in England from 1960–1973, stated that the allegation was "bunk...absolute rubbish. There was no such policy".^[9]:597 Powell's biographer Simon Heffer also stated that the claim "is a complete untruth. As Powell's biographer I have been thoroughly through the Ministry of Health papers at the Public Record Office and have found no evidence to support this assertion".^[29] 

 

Well he wasn't saying anything against it and as health minister he was clearly in a position to do so, the point being that he changed his tune depending on what he wanted for his career rather than what he genuinely wanted for the country.  

[Kieran00001]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

As clear as the BS it is.

 

Hardly, you may want to believe that he was always an outspoken racist but he wasn't, the quote I posted is real, he pretended to not be a racist for political gain, therefor he was a slimy politician, end of.

[CG1 Blue]

2 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

 

Powell spent his first 11 years as an MP condoning free immigration for the Commonwealth, he was questioned on it in 1956 and stated that he was against putting any control on immigration.  While he was Minister of Health he oversaw recruitment drives in the West Indies that brought the NHS staff.  In his campaign in the 1964 election he said, “I have set and always will set my face like flint against making any difference between one citizen of this country and another on grounds of his origin,”.  Then he stood for leader of the Tory party and lost, and lost badly, and it was then that he started voicing a racist opinion, to try to win some votes, you would have to have been a fool to have fallen for Powell's game, he was just a slimy politician.

 

Your Google results are quite useful, saving the rest of us time.  But you should really credit the source of information; otherwise it reads like you know all this stuff. I'm sure that's not your intention

[Kieran00001]

1 hour ago, StreetCowboy said:

I think the opinion that he expressed in the famed "Rivers of blood" speech was on the hazards of unfettered immigration, and did not suggest that citizens should be favoured or otherwise based on the nationality of their parents or of their country of birth.  British people are British, whatever they look like, their accent or which church they pray in.  (excluding the differentiation against, for example, British Nationals (Overseas), for example. 

 

When he spoke of black domination, of black people in Britain preparing for power and when he warned that black people would have the "whip hand" by 1988, he made very clear that he did distinguish by race.  

[billd766]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44053408

 

Please discuss and contrast

 

On my desk tomorrow morning!

 

You are not a teacher or a lecturer and I am not a schoolboy or a student.

 

You want it on your desk in the morning?

 

Write it yourself.

[Grouse]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

You are not a teacher or a lecturer and I am not a schoolboy or a student.

 

You want it on your desk in the morning?

 

Write it yourself.

It was a joke

 

No intention to wind you up

 

sorry

[nauseus]

59 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Hardly, you may want to believe that he was always an outspoken racist but he wasn't, the quote I posted is real, he pretended to not be a racist for political gain, therefor he was a slimy politician, end of.

Your quote is not even such; no quotation and no source, just sauce. You don't know what Powell said or didn't say when he was health minister. Your tune changes like the wind..and you have plenty of that ..you just make stuff up. 

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

Your Google results are quite useful, saving the rest of us time.  But you should really credit the source of information; otherwise it reads like you know all this stuff. I'm sure that's not your intention

It was a quickie. I gave more reference info than was given in the first post. I said it was from Wiki anyway.

Edited May 9, 2018 by nauseus

[Kieran00001]

8 hours ago, nauseus said:

Your quote is not even such; no quotation and no source, just sauce. You don't know what Powell said or didn't say when he was health minister. Your tune changes like the wind..and you have plenty of that ..you just make stuff up. 

 

 

There is a quote in my first post, read it again.  It doesn't relate to the fatct that he didn't say anything against the recruitment drive in the West Indies while he was health minister, I didn't say it does, but he didn't speak against it, he sat and accepted it because he was much more concerned with capitalism than with immigration.  But what the quote does show us is that Powell pretended not to be a racist when that suited his career and thenlater voiced his racist opinion when he thought that was good for his career, and if anyone's tune changed with the wind it was Powells, mine has remained constant, it is just you suffering reading comprehension problems, I suggest you read I think again, the quotation marks are clearly there, read what's between them.

[Kieran00001]

8 hours ago, nauseus said:

Your quote is not even such; no quotation and no source, just sauce. You don't know what Powell said or didn't say when he was health minister. Your tune changes like the wind..and you have plenty of that ..you just make stuff up. 

 

 

Here it is for you again on its own, seeing as you struggle to make it through a whole paragraph.

“I have set and always will set my face like flint against making any difference between one citizen of this country and another on grounds of his origin,

 

And the source.

https://books.google.co.th/books?id=tDMsfsZ6UE8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=“I+have+set+and+always+will+set+my+face+like+flint+against+making+any+difference+between+one+citizen+of+this+country+and+another+on+grounds+of+his+origin,&source=bl&ots=6Y822G7_FS&sig=cCJHHpoVxpH3iD72T4RdCAa55JY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi40fnj9vnaAhXBK48KHY4tDsoQ6AEISzAD#v=onepage&q=“I have set and always will set my face like flint against making any difference between one citizen of this country and another on grounds of his origin%2C&f=false

 

Not long after claiming that he will always set his face against making any difference between one citizen of this country and another, he said this, "The West Indian or Indian does not, by being born in England become an English man.  In law he becomes a United Kingdom citizen by birth: the fact is he is a West Indian or an Asian still."

That does not sound like he was still setting his face like flint against making any difference between one citizen on this country and another on the grounds of origin to me, does it to you?  If not then you agree that Powell changed his opinions like the wind.

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Here it is for you again on its own, seeing as you struggle to make it through a whole paragraph.

“I have set and always will set my face like flint against making any difference between one citizen of this country and another on grounds of his origin,

 

And the source.

https://books.google.co.th/books?id=tDMsfsZ6UE8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=“I+have+set+and+always+will+set+my+face+like+flint+against+making+any+difference+between+one+citizen+of+this+country+and+another+on+grounds+of+his+origin,&source=bl&ots=6Y822G7_FS&sig=cCJHHpoVxpH3iD72T4RdCAa55JY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi40fnj9vnaAhXBK48KHY4tDsoQ6AEISzAD#v=onepage&q=“I have set and always will set my face like flint against making any difference between one citizen of this country and another on grounds of his origin%2C&f=false

 

Not long after claiming that he will always set his face against making any difference between one citizen of this country and another, he said this, "The West Indian or Indian does not, by being born in England become an English man.  In law he becomes a United Kingdom citizen by birth: the fact is he is a West Indian or an Asian still."

That does not sound like he was still setting his face like flint against making any difference between one citizen on this country and another on the grounds of origin to me, does it to you?  If not then you agree that Powell changed his opinions like the wind.

The one line quote "face like flint" is indeed Powell's - he was referring to existing British citizens - what he did not want to see was 50k+/yr immigration. 

 

Your link is to a book written by a little-known Guardian contributor, endorsed Owen (Brown Eyes) Jones, with the passage itself without any reference or evidence. 

 

Powell said he wasn't a racist - I don't know for sure either way - but his views were consistent and he did not change his mind.

 

He was talking about two different things, which were existing British citizens and future immigration.

 

But you haven't even struggled to try and see that.

[Kieran00001]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The one line quote "face like flint" is indeed Powell's - he was referring to existing British citizens - what he did not want to see was 50k+/yr immigration. 

 

Your link is to a book written by a little-known Guardian contributor, endorsed Owen (Brown Eyes) Jones, with the passage itself without any reference or evidence. 

 

Powell said he wasn't a racist - I don't know for sure either way - but his views were consistent and he did not change his mind.

 

He was talking about two different things, which were existing British citizens and future immigration.

 

But you haven't even struggled to try and see that.

 

LOL, "face like flint" is a biblical quote that Powell was using.  But yes, he was referring to current British citizens, just like he was in the second quote, except in that one he did not set his face like flint, instead he drew a clear distinction based on race.

The quote is one of his most famous, it is hardly difficult to find.  Here is another book referencing the same quote and I could post many.

https://books.google.co.th/books?id=JBKFCAAAQBAJ&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=face+like+flint+powell&source=bl&ots=ZJUhfPBv4E&sig=gp3NEuAJ_jLC5NSEKJOS689FLJ0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwifmonOsPraAhVEKY8KHZ3FCBoQ6AEIYjAL#v=onepage&q=face like flint powell&f=false

 

Powell did say he wasn't a racist, that is the point, because later he went on to make racist remarks that were far from consistent with his earlier remarks, I have posted two remarks that no one in their right mind could claim demonstrate anything in the way of consistency.

 

When he said  ""The West Indian or Indian does not, by being born in England become an English man.  In law he becomes a United Kingdom citizen by birth: the fact is he is a West Indian or an Asian still."

He was not talking about future immigration, he was talking about British citizens of West Indian and Indian decent, obviously.  Not sure why you are trying to pretend otherwise, but I have not struggled with anything, that was you, you struggled to recognise a quote, you struggled to see that the two quotes show opposing views and you struggled to see that the second quote was about British citizens despite him saying British citizens in the quote, so do stop projecting your inabilities onto me, it wont stick

[nauseus]

14 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Hardly, you may want to believe that he was always an outspoken racist but he wasn't, the quote I posted is real, he pretended to not be a racist for political gain, therefor he was a slimy politician, end of.

Racist? Non-racist? Slimy political quietly-spoken non-racist? Pretend racist?  Make you mind up, Kieran!