Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

How did considering the will of the majority of the people rather than only the majority who voted translate to dictator in your head? 

Majority in your own mind. You should really get out more.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, StreetCowboy said:

I’m sure it will be a better Union that we seek to rejoin

For sure but we will have lost all our privileges and opt outs! For what? To keep the, er, well, you know, happy?

[StreetCowboy]

Just now, Grouse said:

For sure but we will have lost all our privileges and opt outs! For what? To keep the, er, well, you know, happy?

The government would never have been able to give away those opt-outs that so disadvantaged the British people to the benefit of their employers and patrons of the Tory party, but now they won't have to.  Thanks, Theresa!

[CG1 Blue]

58 minutes ago, tebee said:

No matter how much you may want this, if it's not something that can be achieved - and there is no way it can be achieved in the remaining timescale - you are not going to get it.  

On this we are in agreement, and also your later comment about being stuck with T May because it's too late to get someone else in.

 

Time is indeed running out. But things would have progressed much faster had it not been for the big influential Remain players doing their best to slow the process down or reverse it. That includes that elite bunch in the House of Lords, many of whom receive EU benefits.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

The vast majority of Brits want Brexit to be done and dusted now.

 

Many reluctant remainers are now re-Leavers.

 

Many who voted remain (or failed to vote) have now seen the EU's true colours and want out.

 

Many who voted remain purely to keep the status quo have now realised the EU's plans are not to keep the status quo, so they want out too.

 

I think a 2nd referendum would waste valuable time.  But there is a part of me that would welcome it, just to put this issue to bed. A 65/35 for Leave vote (my prediction) would help strengthen our position in the negotiations.

OK, let's have another vote then. I'll bet you my reputation that Brexit would lose ?

[Kieran00001]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

The vast majority of Brits want Brexit to be done and dusted now.

 

Many reluctant remainers are now re-Leavers.

 

Many who voted remain (or failed to vote) have now seen the EU's true colours and want out.

 

Many who voted remain purely to keep the status quo have now realised the EU's plans are not to keep the status quo, so they want out too.

 

I think a 2nd referendum would waste valuable time.  But there is a part of me that would welcome it, just to put this issue to bed. A 65/35 for Leave vote (my prediction) would help strengthen our position in the negotiations.

 

Look at the polls, 11 of them now since the referendum, putting remain in the clear lead, and it is exactly what we need, things were far from fair, the leave campaign was nothing but lies, the fishermen, the factory workers, the farmers, the NHS staff, they all deserved to make their vote based on truths, which they didn't have, so they deserve another vote, one without Cambridge Analytica, the firm ran by ex army psychological warfare operatives that bombarded potential leave voters with lies, obviously there should be another referendum, the last one was manipulated.

[tebee]

13 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Joking apart IELTS is very tough! My elder Thai daughter needs a high grade (6.5) for her preferred UK university. I promise you that many natural English speakers' would fail! It's good that we keep standards up but we should let bright young people stay for a while after graduating. 5 years?

I'm just trying to get my Thai step-son's English up to IELTS 7.5 for a job in the UK at the moment. Great fun, especially as he's working too hard to spend the amount of time he needs to at it.

 

The  " we'll let bright young people in, but they'll have to go again after 5 years" is ridiculous. Who is really going to want to come  under those conditions? We will be throwing out high earners who could be earning a lot of money for the country. TM's xenophobia get's the better of common sense. There are currently 1000 tier 2  visa holders - specialists and people  with skills there are shortages for - under threat of deportation for things like tax errors and motoring offences. 

 

 

[Kieran00001]

12 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Majority in your own mind. You should really get out more.

 

Majority in the IPSOS MORI post referendum poll of over 1000 non voters, we know how the voters voted, how many non voters have you asked in your time out and about?  It is yours that is based on your own mind, mine is based on a survey as has been made clear from the beginning of this conversation.

[Grouse]

20 minutes ago, nauseus said:

So you trust the map? Of course!

Actually, I don't. There are some glaring inconsistencies. Look at NI and Scotland for example.  And Sweden! But I think, in general the EU is doing OK and will pull through the current turbulence 

[CG1 Blue]

For those who think the House of Lords' blocking tactics are to protect the British people, here are some bits and pieces I dug up:

 

The Duke of Wellington is leading the group of unelected peers who have helped inflict 14 defeats on the Government’s Brexit legislation in the Lords.  

The Duke of Wellington is believed to have received over £80,000 in EU subsidies for part of his 7,000 acre Hampshire estate in 2015. He is also believed to have claimed other separate subsidies for land he owns in Spain and Belgium.  He is one of 17 of the UK’s 24 non-Royal Dukes who receive large annual EU farm subsidies for the land they own.

 

Among others trying to derail Brexit is Viscount Hailsham, who as MP Douglas Hogg claimed upwards of £2,000 from the taxpayer for cleaning the moat at his sprawling Lincolnshire estate. 

 

He was supported by scores of life peers including former Labour leader Lord Kinnock, a former vice president of the European Commission who is estimated to get almost £90,000 a year from his Brussels pension pot. 

 

Lord Tugendhat and Lord Patten both served in the European Commission and are believed to get close to £40,000 a year in pensions.

 

Conflicts of interest like this should be openly declared to the public!

 

[tebee]

17 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

On this we are in agreement, and also your later comment about being stuck with T May because it's too late to get someone else in.

 

Time is indeed running out. But things would have progressed much faster had it not been for the big influential Remain players doing their best to slow the process down or reverse it. That includes that elite bunch in the House of Lords, many of whom receive EU benefits.

The Brexiters big error was invoking article  50 before they had any idea what they wanted. Now the clock is ticking down and I can see only 2 likely scenarios. Firstly we brexit in name only, maybe even joining the EEA but that does not gain us anything and we might still lose services access. Other one is nothing is agreed and we leave in a chaotic hard brexit. But the country is unprepared for this - no customs infrastructure for a start. I suspect the consequences would be very bad   and the Tories know this and realize they will be out of power for a long time if it happens.

 

Of course the EU could still be generous and let us withdraw or extend the art 50 notice. 

[StreetCowboy]

23 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Look at the polls, 11 of them now since the referendum, putting remain in the clear lead, and it is exactly what we need, things were far from fair, the leave campaign was nothing but lies, the fishermen, the factory workers, the farmers, the NHS staff, they all deserved to make their vote based on truths, which they didn't have, so they deserve another vote, one without Cambridge Analytica, the firm ran by ex army psychological warfare operatives that bombarded potential leave voters with lies, obviously there should be another referendum, the last one was manipulated.

Of course not.  How can people be expected to make decisions that affect the future of the country if they are not bombarded with lies?

 

People have no right to change their minds, or see sense.  How will our young people develop their uniquely British sense of humour if they are not led into poverty by their grandparents?

[CG1 Blue]

29 minutes ago, Grouse said:

OK, let's have another vote then. I'll bet you my reputation that Brexit would lose ?

You're on!

[tebee]

5 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

You're on!

OK I'll tell them  to start getting the second referendum organized then, now we've got your approval. 

[Grouse]

28 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

For those who think the House of Lords' blocking tactics are to protect the British people, here are some bits and pieces I dug up:

 

The Duke of Wellington is leading the group of unelected peers who have helped inflict 14 defeats on the Government’s Brexit legislation in the Lords.  

The Duke of Wellington is believed to have received over £80,000 in EU subsidies for part of his 7,000 acre Hampshire estate in 2015. He is also believed to have claimed other separate subsidies for land he owns in Spain and Belgium.  He is one of 17 of the UK’s 24 non-Royal Dukes who receive large annual EU farm subsidies for the land they own.

 

Among others trying to derail Brexit is Viscount Hailsham, who as MP Douglas Hogg claimed upwards of £2,000 from the taxpayer for cleaning the moat at his sprawling Lincolnshire estate. 

 

He was supported by scores of life peers including former Labour leader Lord Kinnock, a former vice president of the European Commission who is estimated to get almost £90,000 a year from his Brussels pension pot. 

 

Lord Tugendhat and Lord Patten both served in the European Commission and are believed to get close to £40,000 a year in pensions.

 

Conflicts of interest like this should be openly declared to the public!

 

Don't be so silly. Those amounts are small, almost trivial! Get a grip. 

 

look it pisses me off that UK pensions are embarrassingly small but who's fault is that?

 

Get back to us with some interesting numbers

 

 

[StreetCowboy]

52 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

For those who think the House of Lords' blocking tactics are to protect the British people, here are some bits and pieces I dug up:

 

The Duke of Wellington is leading the group of unelected peers who have helped inflict 14 defeats on the Government’s Brexit legislation in the Lords.  

The Duke of Wellington is believed to have received over £80,000 in EU subsidies for part of his 7,000 acre Hampshire estate in 2015. He is also believed to have claimed other separate subsidies for land he owns in Spain and Belgium.  He is one of 17 of the UK’s 24 non-Royal Dukes who receive large annual EU farm subsidies for the land they own.

 

Among others trying to derail Brexit is Viscount Hailsham, who as MP Douglas Hogg claimed upwards of £2,000 from the taxpayer for cleaning the moat at his sprawling Lincolnshire estate. 

 

He was supported by scores of life peers including former Labour leader Lord Kinnock, a former vice president of the European Commission who is estimated to get almost £90,000 a year from his Brussels pension pot. 

 

Lord Tugendhat and Lord Patten both served in the European Commission and are believed to get close to £40,000 a year in pensions.

 

Conflicts of interest like this should be openly declared to the public!

 

Presumably they are.  Or are you a super-detective who can unearth information that is not in the public domain.

Presumably the pensioners will continue to receive their pensions whether we remain or not, and I hope that our farmers will not be worse off once we are out of Europe. 

[StreetCowboy]

40 minutes ago, tebee said:

OK I'll tell them  to start getting the second referendum organized then, now we've got your approval. 

Thanks!  Let people who were seventeen at the time of the last referendum have a vote this time round.

[Kieran00001]

45 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

For those who think the House of Lords' blocking tactics are to protect the British people, here are some bits and pieces I dug up:

 

The Duke of Wellington is leading the group of unelected peers who have helped inflict 14 defeats on the Government’s Brexit legislation in the Lords.  

The Duke of Wellington is believed to have received over £80,000 in EU subsidies for part of his 7,000 acre Hampshire estate in 2015. He is also believed to have claimed other separate subsidies for land he owns in Spain and Belgium.  He is one of 17 of the UK’s 24 non-Royal Dukes who receive large annual EU farm subsidies for the land they own.

 

Among others trying to derail Brexit is Viscount Hailsham, who as MP Douglas Hogg claimed upwards of £2,000 from the taxpayer for cleaning the moat at his sprawling Lincolnshire estate. 

 

He was supported by scores of life peers including former Labour leader Lord Kinnock, a former vice president of the European Commission who is estimated to get almost £90,000 a year from his Brussels pension pot. 

 

Lord Tugendhat and Lord Patten both served in the European Commission and are believed to get close to £40,000 a year in pensions.

 

Conflicts of interest like this should be openly declared to the public!

 

 

The Duke of Wellington might lose his £80,000 farm subsidy, he's only worth 50 million and his daughter only inherited 3.8 billion, it must be such a worry for him, no wonder he wants us to remain.

[aright]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Do you have data that suggests a different picture because, in the absence of an alternative I can see no reason not to accept it.

I

Our different picture is provided by hard data from election outcomes in Germany, France, Italy etc. 

[aright]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

OK, let's have another vote then. I'll bet you my reputation that Brexit would lose ?

That's the square root of naff all. 

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

The Duke of Wellington might lose his £80,000 farm subsidy, he's only worth 50 million and his daughter only inherited 3.8 billion, it must be such a worry for him, no wonder he wants us to remain.

Missing the point seems to be your speciality.

 

The people trying to halt Brexit under the false premise of 'protecting the interests of the people' have close ties and vested interests with the EU.

 

P.S. his daughter didn't inherit 3.8bn. She married a billionaire, so that point is doubly irrelevant.

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, StreetCowboy said:

Presumably they are.  Or are you a super-detective who can unearth information that is not in the public domain.

Presumably the pensioners will continue to receive their pensions whether we remain or not, and I hope that our farmers will not be worse off once we are out of Europe. 

I get your point.  I suppose what I should have said is that this should all be made very clear to the public - most of whom would have no idea of the vested interests.

Or alternatively, any members of the HoL with vested interests in the EU should be excluded from the votes. But then again, that would probably only leave about 2 lords voting.

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

You're on!

What reputation do you think he has?

[Grouse]

3 minutes ago, nontabury said:

What reputation do you think he has?

You hard Brexiters don't really do humour do you? And that's strange because humour is one of the clear defining characteristics of the British. In future, I shall make it quite clear when a comment is intended to be humorous in the same way as I point out irony to our cousins.?

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

How did considering the will of the majority of the people rather than only the majority who voted translate to dictator in your head? 

It's the votes that are counted.

[Kieran00001]

36 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Missing the point seems to be your speciality.

 

The people trying to halt Brexit under the false premise of 'protecting the interests of the people' have close ties and vested interests with the EU.

 

P.S. his daughter didn't inherit 3.8bn. She married a billionaire, so that point is doubly irrelevant.

 

Was your point that you see the interests of the British people who have interests in Europe as being less worthy of representation? 

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

Don't be so silly. Those amounts are small, almost trivial! Get a grip. 

 

look it pisses me off that UK pensions are embarrassingly small but who's fault is that?

 

Get back to us with some interesting numbers

 

 

Small or large, these pensions and perks are relevant and people should know.

 

Evidently the smaller EU pensions are far greater than the UK state pittance!

 

40K v 8K  hmmm interesting enough??

[Kieran00001]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

It's the votes that are counted.

 

No, the question was how did that translate to being a dictator?

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, tebee said:

The Brexiters big error was invoking article  50 before they had any idea what they wanted. Now the clock is ticking down and I can see only 2 likely scenarios. Firstly we brexit in name only, maybe even joining the EEA but that does not gain us anything and we might still lose services access. Other one is nothing is agreed and we leave in a chaotic hard brexit. But the country is unprepared for this - no customs infrastructure for a start. I suspect the consequences would be very bad   and the Tories know this and realize they will be out of power for a long time if it happens.

 

Of course the EU could still be generous and let us withdraw or extend the art 50 notice. 

The basis of what the UK wanted was set out in the Lancaster House speech,

 

Obviously the EU are unwilling to negotiate anything that is mutually sensible.

 

 

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

No, the question was how did that translate to being a dictator?

You missed the point.