Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[Eloquent pilgrim]

55 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Personally, I prefer to imagine the worst possible and always be pleasantly surprised than dream of the best possible scenario and always be disappointed.

Sure, I appreciate the difference between the two ways of viewing everything that we encounter on this unraveling highway. I don’t know if you ever saw a BBC film / documentary about Neil ‘Nello’ Baldwin. I doubt that you're interested so to cut the story short, he was a man with learning difficulties that managed to become a circus clown and then also the kit man for Stoke City FC. It is a remarkable story of not just his resolution, but the way other people warmed to his simplistic aspirations ….. I remember one part where he said “I’ve always wanted to be happy, so I decided I would be”  ….. it hit me like a lightning bolt, it humbled me and inspired me. My apologies for wandering off topic a bit

[tebee]

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

Had a good sleep ?

 

That was destroyed hours ago

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/17/theresa-may-denies-customs-union-climbdown

 

That is why remainers are so confused, they are miles behind the curve.

The BBc are reporting the same story http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44148027

 

Problem is no one seems to understand the NI problem.

 

To have no customs border between NI and RoI, NI needs to be in the EU single market and the customs union. There is no other solution to it. This does not depend on the future EU-UK FTA, because no FTA in the world will remove the need for a customs border.

 

If this simple fact is beyond the grasp of UK politicians and UK journalists, then, it is beyond the grasp of ordinary voters. Such a question should have never been asked. It's beyond their comprehension.

 

Nicked from the FT, not my words
 

[oldhippy]

5 hours ago, evadgib said:

Press release

Dr Liam Fox launches global investment drive, bringing more than £30 billion to the UK

International Trade Secretary Dr Liam Fox launches a new drive to attract more than £30 billion of investment to 68 projects across the UK.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/dr-liam-fox-launches-global-investment-drive-bringing-more-than-30-billion-to-the-uk

Nice plan.

But I could come up with much nicer plans than this.

In fact, anyone can daydream.

Why stop at 30 billion & 68 projects?

 

[aright]

19 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

To have no customs border between NI and RoI, NI needs to be in the EU single market and the customs union. There is no other solution to it. This does not depend on the future EU-UK FTA, because no FTA in the world will remove the need for a customs border.

 

Imo many people regard a border as a geographical line which when breached by roads requires a manned border post to stop vehicles for inspection and to apportion tariffs(taxes) Although details are unclear the UK has proposed a digital border where vehicles are checked through electronically. I assume cross border vehicles will be licensed to carry milk, meat, whisky etc and any taxes will be paid retrospectively by the exporter. I cannot believe it is beyond our wit to create this process to the benefit of both sides. Unfortunately it is unacceptable to the EU and has been dismissed out of hand, for what I believe are political reasons.....let's not make it easy for them. 

We already have a very successful border in London "The Congestion Zone" controlled electronically.

Imo we should be telling the EU and the RI we don't want a trade restrictive border however if you want a wall you build it and man it.

[StreetCowboy]

27 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Nice plan.

But I could come up with much nicer plans than this.

In fact, anyone can daydream.

Why stop at 30 billion & 68 projects?

 

I bring GBP 6,000 every month into the UK and I have receipts to prove it.  Get the politicians to show their receipts,

 

[StreetCowboy]

8 minutes ago, aright said:

Imo many people regard a border as a geographical line which when breached by roads requires a manned border post to stop vehicles for inspection and to apportion tariffs(taxes) Although details are unclear the UK has proposed a digital border where vehicles are checked through electronically. I assume cross border vehicles will be licensed to carry milk, meat, whisky etc and any taxes will be paid retrospectively by the exporter. I cannot believe it is beyond our wit to create this process to the benefit of both sides. Unfortunately it is unacceptable to the EU and has been dismissed out of hand, for what I believe are political reasons.....let's not make it easy for them. 

We already have a very successful border in London "The Congestion Zone" controlled electronically.

Imo we should be telling the EU and the RI we don't want a trade restrictive border however if you want a wall you build it and man it.

The great thing about the congestion charge boundary is that the British control both sides of it, and it doesn't matter if your milk float is carrying milk or whisky as you cross.  Nor how many Syrians you are carrying,  The charge is the same.

 

Reunification of Ireland would be an easy way out, and I'm sure the DUP could be persuaded to support that, aiming towards the government's Brexit objective. Sometimes, you have to marvel at Theresa's Machiavellian cunning.

 

SC

[tebee]

41 minutes ago, aright said:

Imo many people regard a border as a geographical line which when breached by roads requires a manned border post to stop vehicles for inspection and to apportion tariffs(taxes) Although details are unclear the UK has proposed a digital border where vehicles are checked through electronically. I assume cross border vehicles will be licensed to carry milk, meat, whisky etc and any taxes will be paid retrospectively by the exporter. I cannot believe it is beyond our wit to create this process to the benefit of both sides. Unfortunately it is unacceptable to the EU and has been dismissed out of hand, for what I believe are political reasons.....let's not make it easy for them. 

We already have a very successful border in London "The Congestion Zone" controlled electronically.

Imo we should be telling the EU and the RI we don't want a trade restrictive border however if you want a wall you build it and man it.

The plan apparently is we stay in CU and SM until these wonderful technical solutions are developed.

 

[aright]

32 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

The great thing about the congestion charge boundary is that the British control both sides of it, and it doesn't matter if your milk float is carrying milk or whisky as you cross.  Nor how many Syrians you are carrying,  The charge is the same.

 

I agree but the system depends on number plate recognition which identifies a vehicle and the registered owner and his address. I'm no electronic expert but the vehicle could be tied in with a licensed commercial enterprise and a payload. We surely must have system engineers who could design this for both sides. If this can't be accommodated we need to walk away. Our Government has an obligation to attempt to accommodate NI's needs but if it can't we need to let NI get on with it, the government's first and most important obligation is to the UK. 

[beautifulthailand99]

I think we have to post Brexit look long and hard at who is exactly contributing to the new brighter , freeer Britain which Brexiteers seem to think is  a given once these pesky shackles of the EU have been cast off. And a lot of non Britain's will leave because government policy won't be this laissez-faire every body has a fairchance and that. That may well be the time to consider those who wish to domicile overseas and spend their UK pension in a foreign country rather than keeping the money in Britain where it would contribute to growing this new prosperous Britain. This would be easy low hanging fruit .What think you Thailand retirees - are you prepared to make sacrifices for the greater good ? Maybe Farage could chuck his EU pension into the pot whilst we're at it to start the ball rolling. 

[oldwelshman]

26 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

I think we have to post Brexit look long and hard at who is exactly contributing to the new brighter , freeer Britain which Brexiteers seem to think is  a given once these pesky shackles of the EU have been cast off. And a lot of non Britain's will leave because government policy won't be this laissez-faire every body has a fairchance and that. That may well be the time to consider those who wish to domicile overseas and spend their UK pension in a foreign country rather than keeping the money in Britain where it would contribute to growing this new prosperous Britain. This would be easy low hanging fruit .What think you Thailand retirees - are you prepared to make sacrifices for the greater good ? Maybe Farage could chuck his EU pension into the pot whilst we're at it to start the ball rolling. 

Explain why I would want to spend my hard earned pension, getting taxed on it again in the form of VAT, extortionate council tax for little service, while the fat cats get extortionate bonuses for dabbling with our money at high risk ? I prefer to spend my money in Thailand and help the local economy here instead of bankrolling the tory fatcats and fun tax breaks. My choice.

[nontabury]

8 hours ago, oldhippy said:

 

Why have you edited my post, to include a comment, which I never said regarding Nth Ireland. 

  If you can only falsify post, can I suggest that, as a non British citizen, you refrain from entering a discussion regarding the U.K.

 

 

[oldhippy]

7 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Why have you edited my post, to include a comment, which I never said regarding Nth Ireland. 

  If you can only falsify post, can I suggest that, as a non British citizen, you refrain from entering a discussion regarding the U.K.

 

 

Have I edited your post?

 

[oldhippy]

9 hours ago, nontabury said:

As you correctly stated, this list is rather old. A newer list would be much longer.

Many more company’s have now moved their production from the U.K to the E.U and elsewhere, financed by the Bureaucrats in Brussels. “Ophs” sorry I should have said, financed by British tax payers contribution.

 But are the selfish remainers concerned? No, as it’s not their jobs that are being lost. It’s the jobs of the lower paid, who are now having to survive on no contract minimum wages.

 

 

 

Do I see this right?

Northern Ireland is part of Ireland and Europe?

 

There, I moved my comment - I thought it was obvious that it was MY comment, not Nontaburi's.

 

As for the suggestion that a non - Brit should refrain from commenting on Brexit, words fail me.

 

And maybe you should be more carefull in the future when adding all these pics to your posts. I from my side will make it more obvious what is my comment and what is a silly pic.

I appologise for the confusion

.

Happy now?

 

[oldhippy]

33 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Why have you edited my post, to include a comment, which I never said regarding Nth Ireland. 

  If you can only falsify post, can I suggest that, as a non British citizen, you refrain from entering a discussion regarding the U.K.

 

 

I resent the expression "falsify"a post.

 

 

[nontabury]

8 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

But already salaries are falling compared to our peers. Soon enough regulations will be slashed, standards lowered, workers' rights eliminated - industry will come flooding back for some of that sweet, sweet freedom we are striving for.

Salaries for the lower paid have been in decline over the last 30yrs, compared with other countries.

To day while talking to one of my near neighbours, I mentioned this thread on T.V.

He told me that until 5 yrs ago, he was doing fine, had a job at £ 23,000, with his  wife working part time. Then the multi national that he worked for closed his factory down and relocated to the E.U, with he believes help from the Brussels Beurecrats and British tax payers contributions. It took him over one year to obtain alternative employment, unfortunately only at a minimum wage for 30hrs a week =£ 12,500 yr. Then unfortunately his wife also lost her employment, again to a company that relocated to the E.U.

  So now he’s working at this low paid job, alongside a Romanian immigrants, who he blames for keeping his wages down, 

Well for a Romanian with 3 children he’s doing O.K. bragging about the benefits he obtains from the British tax payer. For instance housing benefit for a 3 bedroom house, Child working credits, child benefits. Free school meal x 3.Free council tax. Free schooling x3,free medical care x5 etc,etc,.

Now the wife of my British neighbour has taken another  part time job in spite of the fact, that in doing so she will lose the small benefits that they previously obtained. 2 bedroom housing benefit, one child working benefits, one free school meal. 

 Yet remainers like you seem to think that membership of this so called Union, has benefited the ordinary man in the street, well my neighbour certainly thinks otherwise. And I certainly don’t think he’s alone. Also pointing out to me that he’s worked all his life in the U.K. except for the one yrs unemployment and 5yrs in the Army, including the gulf war. And what is he entitled to now from his country,

free schooling for one child, approx £5,500 a year and free medical care for 3 people. While his E.U. work colleague, resident in the U.K. 3 yrs, obtains free schooling for 3 children £5,500 x 3 = £ 16,500, plus free health care for 5 people.

And again lets not forget that this Romanian, along with the other E.u.immigrants, have just by virtue of being here, have increased the supply of cheap Labour, thus keeping the wages of your lower paid fellow citizens down. 

 So what do many of the remainers think? Well unfortunately they are so selfish, they are only capable of one thing:- 

 

 

  

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

22 hours ago, Orac said:

 

Can you tell me where these land borders that work very well are that do not have hard borders where goods can be imported/exported.


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Switzerland has an interesting agreement, and the Swedish/Norway border is worth a look.

Try looking it up for yourself. Or have a look at this:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44054594

 

I believe the EU are intent on a hard border in Ireland for their own dubious agenda that could be avoided with some cooperation and thought.

The EU needs a trade agreement more than the UK as they sell us more then we sell them don't forget.

Also WTO rules say we can remain on the same zero tariffs for another 10 years after the glorious Exit from EU rule.

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2018 by George FmplesdaCosteedback

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

21 hours ago, The Renegade said:

These borders do not work, that is why people traffickers can move millions across these borders, sure, some Countries then adopted physical borders, for some reason the EU took a dislike to this.

 

We have a winner.

 

As much as we hear the daily hysterics about the £12billion less a rebate every year. This is only 1 payment, the payment of EU membership fees. What is never mentioned is the countless £Billions that goes to fund all the other EU projects. So the true financial cost of EU membership is not known. I suspect it will never be known because if the truth were to out, the British public would be up in arms.

 

Here is about 50 to digest for breakfast

 

https://ec.europa.eu/info/funding-tenders/funding-opportunities/funding-programmes/overview-funding-programmes_en

Humm? I think we are actually on the same side.

The policing of those entering NI and leaving the Republic to go to Shenzhen countries and vice versa is the main concern for security.

Goods are another question. WTO rules make this less of an immediate cause for concern however...

 

 

[Orac]

Switzerland has an interesting agreement, and the Swedish/Norway border is worth a look. Try looking it up for yourself. Or have a look at this:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44054594

 

I believe the EU are intent on a hard border in Ireland for their own dubious agenda that could be avoided with some cooperation and thought.

The EU needs a trade agreement more than the UK as they sell us more then we sell them don't forget.

Also WTO rules say we can remain on the same zero tariffs for another 10 years after the glorious Exit from EU rule.

 

 

 

 

 

I am well aware of these borders and checks required at them for movement of goods and they all have hard borders with delays to goods transitting - up to 24hrs for the Bulgaria/Turkey one.

 

The ‘they need us more than we need them’ is getting a bit tiring and seems incompatible with the ‘they are punishing us for leaving’ argument - bottom line is, just as Brexit is a political argument from a U.K. perspective, it is also a political decision from the EU side to prioritise the integrity of the single market.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

[soalbundy]

8 hours ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Sure, I appreciate the difference between the two ways of viewing everything that we encounter on this unraveling highway. I don’t know if you ever saw a BBC film / documentary about Neil ‘Nello’ Baldwin. I doubt that you're interested so to cut the story short, he was a man with learning difficulties that managed to become a circus clown and then also the kit man for Stoke City FC. It is a remarkable story of not just his resolution, but the way other people warmed to his simplistic aspirations ….. I remember one part where he said “I’ve always wanted to be happy, so I decided I would be”  ….. it hit me like a lightning bolt, it humbled me and inspired me. My apologies for wandering off topic a bit

Yes, a simple man but he was aware that he was aware and stopped being a slave to his mind and became its master.

It surprises me that so few people are awed by the fact that something is aware of their thoughts. I am aware of the thought of brexit, who is this I that is aware, that is aware that it is aware, that with practice can banish thought and sit in silence with the totality. It brings brexit into perspective, it isn't important, what is, is, if it happens say yes internally, don't fight what is, similarly, if it doesn't happen say yes. Whatever happens it will be the way it is for that moment and can be no other way, until then enjoy the fight.  

[soalbundy]

1 hour ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Switzerland has an interesting agreement, and the Swedish/Norway border is worth a look.

Try looking it up for yourself. Or have a look at this:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44054594

 

I believe the EU are intent on a hard border in Ireland for their own dubious agenda that could be avoided with some cooperation and thought.

The EU needs a trade agreement more than the UK as they sell us more then we sell them don't forget.

Also WTO rules say we can remain on the same zero tariffs for another 10 years after the glorious Exit from EU rule.

 

 

 

Members of the EU aren't on WTO tariffs they are an island apart amongst themselves, if the UK leaves they can go back to WTO tariffs before EU. The UK doesn't import goods from the EU out of the goodness of its heart, they need or want those goods. My brothers firm in London imports two articulated lorries of vegetables from France each day, some cheaper than British produce some more expensive but that doesn't matter because he charges the restaurants that he sells to a, as he puts it,  ridiculously expensive price, they demand French produce and he supplies it, for a price.

[Orac]

Members of the EU aren't on WTO tariffs they are an island apart amongst themselves, if the UK leaves they can go back to WTO tariffs before EU. The UK doesn't import goods from the EU out of the goodness of its heart, they need or want those goods. My brothers firm in London imports two articulated lorries of vegetables from France each day, some cheaper than British produce some more expensive but that doesn't matter because he charges the restaurants that he sells to a, as he puts it,  ridiculously expensive price, they demand French produce and he supplies it, for a price.

The EU is registered as a free trade area with the WTO which stipulate it must must comprehensively cover most goods (oddities like agriculture/alchohol get a let off) and also that it has border controls to control access to it - to my knowledge a fully electronic/no infrastructure border has never been implemented as part of any external free trade area border so such a solution may require official recognition by the WTO or be subject to legal challenge.


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[Kieran00001]

2 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Switzerland has an interesting agreement, and the Swedish/Norway border is worth a look.

Try looking it up for yourself. Or have a look at this:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44054594

 

I believe the EU are intent on a hard border in Ireland for their own dubious agenda that could be avoided with some cooperation and thought.

The EU needs a trade agreement more than the UK as they sell us more then we sell them don't forget.

Also WTO rules say we can remain on the same zero tariffs for another 10 years after the glorious Exit from EU rule.

 

 

 

 

You think the union that is built on the premise of ending conflict and opening border has a dubious agenda to reignite old conflicts and reinstate old borders?  Any particular reason you are imagining this agenda?

[tebee]

3 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Humm? I think we are actually on the same side.

The policing of those entering NI and leaving the Republic to go to Shenzhen countries and vice versa is the main concern for security.

Goods are another question. WTO rules make this less of an immediate cause for concern however...

 

 

I suspect you mean Schengen there  rather than China ( It's OK I'm dyslexic myself) - but this illustrates the problem. Although not in the CU Norway and Switzerland  are in both the Single Market and Schengen Area.

 

Unless you are suggesting the the UK joins these, you can't use the EU border there as an example.

[The Renegade]

5 minutes ago, tebee said:

I suspect you mean Schengen there  rather than China ( It's OK I'm dyslexic myself) - but this illustrates the problem. Although not in the CU Norway and Switzerland  are in both the Single Market and Schengen Area.

 

Unless you are suggesting the the UK joins these, you can't use the EU border there as an example.

Staying in the Single Market, Customs Union, Schengen Area or any other fancy name that is dictated by Brussels and where the ECJ has supremacy is not leaving the EU.

 

Why do so many people have great difficulty in understanding this ?

[tebee]

1 minute ago, The Renegade said:

Staying in the Single Market, Customs Union, Schengen Area or any other fancy name that is dictated by Brussels and where the ECJ has supremacy is not leaving the EU.

 

Why do so many people have great difficulty in understanding this ?

I'm merely point out that using the Swiss/EU border as an example model for a future NI/ROI border is invalid unless UK stays in SM and joins Schengen.

 

You have a better solution ?

 

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

You have a better solution ?

There is no solution.

 

Put in a hard border of any description and 2 things will happen.

 

1. All the thousands of old Illegal Border crossing points, that were used on a daily basis for Black Market trading will reopen.

 

2. The hundreds of farms that currently straddle the border, part in the ROI and part in the North will become trade routes.

 

So the fools that have probably never been near the Irish Border can shout all the hot air they like.

[tebee]

Which is precisely why we don't want a hard border.

[The Renegade]

5 minutes ago, tebee said:

Which is precisely why we don't want a hard border.

Who is we ?

 

Is that an admission that the EU is full of shoite and is using any means possible, including blackmail to try and ensure that the UK stays shackled to Brussels and the ECJ by being threatened to stay in some sort of Customs Union ?

 

If the EU & ROI want a hard border, go right ahead, fund it build it and provide the manpower for it.

 

30 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

1. All the thousands of old Illegal Border crossing points, that were used on a daily basis for Black Market trading will reopen.

 

2. The hundreds of farms that currently straddle the border, part in the ROI and part in the North will become trade routes.

Waste of money, time and effort, when it will simply be circumvented.

[Grouse]

13 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Who is we ?

 

Is that an admission that the EU is full of shoite and is using any means possible, including blackmail to try and ensure that the UK stays shackled to Brussels and the ECJ by being threatened to stay in some sort of Customs Union ?

 

If the EU & ROI want a hard border, go right ahead, fund it build it and provide the manpower for it.

 

Waste of money, time and effort, when it will simply be circumvented.

All sensible people know that there must be no hard border. Do I need to explain the history?

 

There MIGHT be a technological solution but I don't see how that would work. It certainly isn't available now. Anywhere. May be 5 years?

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

All sensible people know that there must be no hard border.

Nice to see you admitting that Barnier is a clown. Since he brought it up.

 

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Do I need to explain the history?

Are you a historian ? Why do you think that you might need to explain the history to me ? Never occur to you that I might have forgotten more than you will ever know ?

 

I will indulge you, explain it to me, if nothing else it will give me a right good laugh.