Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, aright said:

No it's not, truth is an absolute value ; its like pregnancy, you are either pregnant or not pregnant you cant be a little bit pregnant. Facts are sometimes coloured by the personalities of the people presenting them. 

 

“There are no facts, only interpretations.” ……………..― Friedrich Nietzsche

Ahem

 

 

[IsaanFam]

On 2/28/2018 at 7:56 AM, FreddieRoyle said:

Look, the realities are that German auto manufacturers want desperately to sell cars to Britain, likewise French cheese-makers and wineries, Italian jewelers, and British manufacturers want to sell products to European consumers etc etc. A sensible trade agreement could be hashed out in half an hour by professionals.  What is happening has nothing to do with the Brexit as such, it is just resistance by attrition due to an inability to accept electoral defeat, and the end result of this could get very ugly. Stick to democratic procedure and get us out of the European superstate project pronto without these endless threats and diversions which only complicate and confuse simple minds. 

 

The reality is that the customer chooses what he wants, it's basically the principle of our current society. If he chooses to buy a German car and is denied that, he will be angry at the gov or the automobile manufacturer. Exactly. Adding to that, nobody MUST sell their products to England, they want to, because they want to increase the profit, but they definitely not must whereas for British exporters (ehm, who exactly anyway?), they basically are forced to have access to the EU market.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

10 hours ago, Grouse said:

You labour under the misapprehension that the majority is always correct. This is why we have a representative democracy. David Cameron made a huge error of judgment firstly by calling a referendum and secondly by not calling for a super majority.

 

One thing we have learnt is that a majority of the British electorate are not very bright.

 

I do not labour under any misapprehensions, particularly one that deems that the majority are always correct. So, I would appreciate it if you do not again announce to everyone on this forum, something about me that is untrue, unsubstantiated and is merely your own baseless speculation.

 

……. as for your spurious implication of intellectual superiority, continually claiming that people that do not share your opinion are not very bright, if other members have not yet found this extremely tiresome, I certainly do

Edited May 19, 2018 by Eloquent pilgrim

[Eloquent pilgrim]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Desperate times calls for deseprate measures, and TM has just appointed a terrorist supporter (and man of God, apparently) to the Lords specifically to circumvent parliament.

John McDonnell or Jeremy Corbyn ??

[tebee]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Desperate times calls for deseprate measures, and TM has just appointed a terrorist supporter (and man of God, apparently) to the Lords specifically to circumvent parliament.

I'm reminded of this from just after the last election :-

 

In fairness, May did warn of a coalition of chaos propped up by extremist terrorist sympathisers; she just didn't mention that she'd be leading it.....

[Eloquent pilgrim]

14 minutes ago, tebee said:

I'm reminded of this from just after the last election :-

 

In fairness, May did warn of a coalition of chaos propped up by extremist terrorist sympathisers; she just didn't mention that she'd be leading it.....

I didn't know that she had threatened to form a coalition with Len McCluskey and the executive of Unite …. thanks for the info

[Johnniey]

Who was the only man to enter the Houses of Parliament with honest intentions?

 

[Johnniey]

Guy Fawkes, bless his soul. Maybe it was the House of Lords

.

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, darren1971 said:

Brexit will never happen anyway, so this thread is pointless.

 

Unfortunately you could be right. Which will mean that democracy in the UK will be finished. Then you will really see conflict.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

I do not labour under any misapprehensions

Good for you!

 

Anyway, very pleasant evening watching the Royal Wedding! Very uplifting so off  to bed feeling rather happy ?

Edited May 19, 2018 by Grouse

[nauseus]

8 hours ago, vogie said:

Fred Dibnah, if my memory serves me well.

Fred Trueman 

Edited May 19, 2018 by nauseus

[Scott]

Troll post removed. 

[beautifulthailand99]

6 hours ago, ivor bigun said:

Who cares we are leaving

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

And now we know that some European expats in Thailand favour a Brexit and a lower pound because it will keep the British cheap charlie riff raff out. A hard Brexit and we will go straight to 40 baht I reckon. 

[beautifulthailand99]

6 hours ago, Grouse said:

Nothing

 

But wait for the sucking noise as the Japanese and American manufacturers disappear into the EU together with most of The City.

and that's the sound of the pound getting hung , drawn and quartered - is there any way for the ordinary investor to short sterling as a hedge ? IMF predicting a 15% fall.

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pound-will-plummet-on-hard-brexit-imf-warns-s55btfmvr

 

 

[Kwasaki]

This thread is probably a good example of how negotiations go, 451 next. 

[AlexRich]

3 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

Unfortunately you could be right. Which will mean that democracy in the UK will be finished. Then you will really see conflict.

 

Democracy did not stop when the referendum result came in, but a lot of people seem to think that it did. If you hate Brexit before the vote you are not betraying democracy by also hating it after the vote. We need another vote on the terms when they are known, either in the form of an election or another referendum. That is also democracy. Even if it displeases you.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

On 5/18/2018 at 7:08 AM, soalbundy said:

Members of the EU aren't on WTO tariffs they are an island apart amongst themselves, if the UK leaves they can go back to WTO tariffs before EU. The UK doesn't import goods from the EU out of the goodness of its heart, they need or want those goods. My brothers firm in London imports two articulated lorries of vegetables from France each day, some cheaper than British produce some more expensive but that doesn't matter because he charges the restaurants that he sells to a, as he puts it,  ridiculously expensive price, they demand French produce and he supplies it, for a price.

Good luck to your brother, but the Irish border is a different matter.

On 5/18/2018 at 8:40 AM, tebee said:

I suspect you mean Schengen there  rather than China ( It's OK I'm dyslexic myself) - but this illustrates the problem. Although not in the CU Norway and Switzerland  are in both the Single Market and Schengen Area.

 

Unless you are suggesting the the UK joins these, you can't use the EU border there as an example.

Sorry, being lazy on the spell check produced the China mistake.

I didn't intend this as an example, just a suggestion that there are other ways to deal with this if the EU looks beyond the "punishment option".

The article shows the EEA (check who is in what) members can be accommodated, and a trade agreement is paramount to solve the problem.

The German car industry, the French (subsidised) farmers and Italian washing machine companies etc don't want tariffs any more than the UK.

I am in favour of the UK rejoining Efta, but nothing more.

May has not ruled out a subscription fee for SM access don't forget, but will not accept the ECJ, free movement rules and diktats from Brussels.

 

The EU are renowned for the brinkmanship ploy leaving everything to the last minute. So it needs steady nerves and a hard and consolidated stand to get a satisfactory deal, not the Labour Party and rich Lords trying to sabotage what was a resounding and decisive decision to leave the EU two years ago.

 

 

 

 

 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

57 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Democracy did not stop when the referendum result came in, but a lot of people seem to think that it did. If you hate Brexit before the vote you are not betraying democracy by also hating it after the vote. We need another vote on the terms when they are known, either in the form of an election or another referendum. That is also democracy. Even if it displeases you.

Not a matter if pleasure. The referendum was debated in Parliament, and it was a once only vote.

The recent local elections produced some very close results, but do they continue to deny a democratic decision?

No!

 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

On 5/18/2018 at 8:03 AM, Kieran00001 said:

 

You think the union that is built on the premise of ending conflict and opening border has a dubious agenda to reignite old conflicts and reinstate old borders?  Any particular reason you are imagining this agenda?

How about the billions of pounds the UK tax payers give the EU when only one other country, Germany, makes a major contribution.

The EU might have been born out of a desire to end conflict, but is has been Nato that has stopped it in reality. It was originally formed as a trading area, but has gone far beyond that.

The Euro has bankrupted several southern European countries for a start.

The Irish border question can be solved, but the EU are using it to try to scupper the referendum result and continue (with UK funds) the march to a United States of Europe including the ex-soviet block. A concept that is already under pressure by several EU members.

It is a house of cards, or a skyscraper built on sand with dubious foundations...

 

 

Edited May 19, 2018 by George FmplesdaCosteedback

[soalbundy]

8 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

Unfortunately you could be right. Which will mean that democracy in the UK will be finished. Then you will really see conflict.

Things seek equilibrium, in politics that can take time but even the collective insanity that is human history will be calmed. The British are a phlegmatic race, that is their greatest strength, only seldom do they engage in extreme behaviour and then only out of pragmatism, so I see no violent conflict whatever happens. 

[The Renegade]

10 hours ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

……. as for your spurious implication of intellectual superiority, continually claiming that people that do not share your opinion are not very bright, if other members have not yet found this extremely tiresome, I certainly do

I do not find it tiresome. I find it rib-tickling funny.

 

Having read the last 5 pages, there is some amount of verbal diarrhea being put in print.

 

None more so than here 

·       #6693

 #6697 

How intellectually superior and bright is someone who, not only posts off topic verbal diarrhea, but then goes onto answer themselves ?

 

Trying to link Grenfell to Brexit takes a special kind of stupidity.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

This is from an article that has just been published in the Times Online overnight

Those of us that follow European politics have felt that something like this was coming since the result of the Italian elections on March 4th, but I don't think any of us felt it would be quite this sensational.

 

The EU now has a far more serious issue on its hands than Brexit

 

QUOTE

**** Italian vow to eject migrants and break budget rules rattles EU

Michael Sheridan and Andrew Byrne, Brussels

May 20 2018, 12:01am, 

The Sunday Times

 

 

Italy is about to throw down the starkest challenge to the European Union since the Brexit vote by vowing to break its budget rules and deport half a million illegal migrants.

The pledges — the most radical by any government in western Europe — have been agreed by leaders of the two anti-establishment parties that aim to form a new coalition in Rome. They amount to an earthquake under the foundations of EU policy since the financial crisis of 2008 and the migrant surge of 2015.

 

On Friday night the promises were approved by 94% of the 44,700 members of the Five Star Movement who voted in an online poll. Over the weekend, the right-wing League is pitching the policies at public meetings in piazzas across northern Italy.

 

With approval now a formality, the stage is set for the populists to go to the 16th-century Quirinal Palace in Rome tomorrow to tell President Sergio Mattarella that they have a deal.

“Now we have it in black and white,” said Luigi Di Maio, Five Star’s leader, “despite what the big newspapers say, despite a few bureaucrats in Brussels.”

 

Matteo Salvini, the combative nationalist who heads the League, told his supporters: “We have got 90% of what we wanted in the programme.”

 

Both want Italy to take a far more assertive stance in Brussels by demanding renegotiation of the EU’s key financial treaties, which Salvini said “are completely dictated by the Germans”

Italy, a founding member of the EU, is its fourth-largest economy and also its most indebted, with a national debt of more than £1.6 trillion.

Mainstream economists say that, if carried out, the populists’ policies would add more than €100bn a year to state spending. They include pledges to spend billions of euros on tax cuts and a universal income for jobseekers, to restore generous state pensions and to reject austerity.

 

Stock markets and the euro are likely to fall again tomorrow after sharp declines last week.

Although the deal omits some of the most radical measures contained in earlier drafts — including a demand for the European Central Bank to write off €250bn in Italian debt — it sets Italy on a collision course with Brussels and other EU countries.

Senior EU officials view the pact as an aggressively Eurosceptic agenda that, if implemented, would force them to punish Italy for breaking EU spending rules.

“The key issue is of course implementation: if these plans are actually put into action a very large fiscal deficit is likely to result,” said Daniel Gros, director of the Centre for European Policy Studies, a leading Brussels think tank.

“This would require the EU to react, ultimately with fines.”

 

EU officials are also acutely alarmed by pledges in the deal to fast-track the deportation of 500,000 “illegal migrants” on Italian territory. They say that could create a humanitarian crisis and reopen fraught political conflict among member states, just as migration has begun to recede from the political agenda.

The League pushed for the moves against migration — which if implemented would be the harshest by any western European country.

The coalition “contract” declares: “A serious and efficient repatriation policy is a priority that cannot be delayed.”

 

Salvini, who covets the post of interior minister, has also vowed to turn back boats carrying migrants across the Mediterranean and to break the business of people trafficking.

In polls, a majority of voters say Italy was let down by its EU partners, which failed to stop mass migration and then refused to take in thousands of migrants.

The coalition will have popular backing for its demand that the EU changes its “Dublin rules”, which state that asylum seekers must be handled by the first EU country where they land.

Since the Italian navy and coastguard played a much-praised humanitarian role in rescuing hundreds of thousands of people, that burden fell on Italy.

“Enough is enough,” Salvini told The Sunday Times in 2016, “we have been taken for fools.” *****

Edited May 20, 2018 by Eloquent pilgrim

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

This is from an article just been published in the Times Online overnight

Those of us that follow European politics have felt that something like this was coming since the result of the Italian elections on March 4th, but I don't think any of us felt it would be quite this sensational.

 

The EU now has a far more serious issue on its hands than Brexit

 

QUOTE

**** Italian vow to eject migrants and break budget rules rattles EU

Michael Sheridan and Andrew Byrne, Brussels

May 20 2018, 12:01am, 

The Sunday Times

 

 

Italy is about to throw down the starkest challenge to the European Union since the Brexit vote by vowing to break its budget rules and deport half a million illegal migrants.

The pledges — the most radical by any government in western Europe — have been agreed by leaders of the two anti-establishment parties that aim to form a new coalition in Rome. They amount to an earthquake under the foundations of EU policy since the financial crisis of 2008 and the migrant surge of 2015.

 

On Friday night the promises were approved by 94% of the 44,700 members of the Five Star Movement who voted in an online poll. Over the weekend, the right-wing League is pitching the policies at public meetings in piazzas across northern Italy.

 

With approval now a formality, the stage is set for the populists to go to the 16th-century Quirinal Palace in Rome tomorrow to tell President Sergio Mattarella that they have a deal.

“Now we have it in black and white,” said Luigi Di Maio, Five Star’s leader, “despite what the big newspapers say, despite a few bureaucrats in Brussels.”

 

Matteo Salvini, the combative nationalist who heads the League, told his supporters: “We have got 90% of what we wanted in the programme.”

 

Both want Italy to take a far more assertive stance in Brussels by demanding renegotiation of the EU’s key financial treaties, which Salvini said “are completely dictated by the Germans”

Italy, a founding member of the EU, is its fourth-largest economy and also its most indebted, with a national debt of more than £1.6 trillion.

Mainstream economists say that, if carried out, the populists’ policies would add more than €100bn a year to state spending. They include pledges to spend billions of euros on tax cuts and a universal income for jobseekers, to restore generous state pensions and to reject austerity.

 

Stock markets and the euro are likely to fall again tomorrow after sharp declines last week.

Although the deal omits some of the most radical measures contained in earlier drafts — including a demand for the European Central Bank to write off €250bn in Italian debt — it sets Italy on a collision course with Brussels and other EU countries.

Senior EU officials view the pact as an aggressively Eurosceptic agenda that, if implemented, would force them to punish Italy for breaking EU spending rules.

“The key issue is of course implementation: if these plans are actually put into action a very large fiscal deficit is likely to result,” said Daniel Gros, director of the Centre for European Policy Studies, a leading Brussels think tank.

“This would require the EU to react, ultimately with fines.”

 

EU officials are also acutely alarmed by pledges in the deal to fast-track the deportation of 500,000 “illegal migrants” on Italian territory. They say that could create a humanitarian crisis and reopen fraught political conflict among member states, just as migration has begun to recede from the political agenda.

The League pushed for the moves against migration — which if implemented would be the harshest by any western European country.

The coalition “contract” declares: “A serious and efficient repatriation policy is a priority that cannot be delayed.”

 

Salvini, who covets the post of interior minister, has also vowed to turn back boats carrying migrants across the Mediterranean and to break the business of people trafficking.

In polls, a majority of voters say Italy was let down by its EU partners, which failed to stop mass migration and then refused to take in thousands of migrants.

The coalition will have popular backing for its demand that the EU changes its “Dublin rules”, which state that asylum seekers must be handled by the first EU country where they land.

Since the Italian navy and coastguard played a much-praised humanitarian role in rescuing hundreds of thousands of people, that burden fell on Italy.

“Enough is enough,” Salvini told The Sunday Times in 2016, “we have been taken for fools.” *****

Wait until payments from the EU stop.

[The Renegade]

26 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Enough is enough,” Salvini told The Sunday Times in 2016, “we have been taken for fools.”

I think the Italians have learned a lot from the Brexit non - negotiations. They have dropped their Anti - EU stance and instead have turned the screw on the EU from a different angle.

 

We are the elected Government of Italy. This is the policies that we are going to implement for Italy, sit back and let the EU jump in feet first.

 

If the EU refuse to budge or veto what they are trying to implement, Referendum time. That might be a € referendum or an EU membership referendum.

 

Either way, chaos for the EU. Not forgetting that the provisional EU budget talks have started for the 2020 - 2027 budget which will already be missing the UK's ££££££'s.

Edited May 20, 2018 by The Renegade

[The Renegade]

4 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Wait until payments from the EU stop.

Wah, Wah, Wah, jjust wait until your father gets home.

 

How many times does this sort of garbage have to get peddled ? Where does the EU get its money ? Is Italy not a net contributor to the EU ?

 

When you are giving more than you receive that type of argument is nonsense.

 

 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

37 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

The papers today are an orgy of wedding trivia, I don't have the hope that this will end soon, there will be the honeymoon story, then the 'is she pregnant' story, then the birth of a black girl with ginger hair named Diana with tears all round as Harry remembers his dead mum and the British public drowns in a sea of emotional driveling snot.

 

 

What a nasty, horrible, spiteful and racist comment to make about our Monarchy and the British public, who have just enjoyed a wonderful day celebrating a fantastic royal wedding; a day full of fun, happiness and laughter. What a truly miserable person you must be ...... shame on you

Edited May 20, 2018 by Eloquent pilgrim

[The Renegade]

A well respected French man says

 

Quote

Europe, says Bernard-Henri Lévy, will collapse if Brexit goes ahead. “It will collapse because when the body is deprived of its brain and its heart, its spirit dies. Britain is not just an additional piece of the European Union, it is the brain.”

 

Quote

Brexit will be a much bigger catastrophe than most people expect or think, a catastrophe for Britain and a catastrophe for Europe. Europe is unthinkable without Great Britain.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news-review/bernard-henri-levys-brexit-lament-nkrnvwvss

 

I thought it was going to be another, woe is me and Brexit must be stopped because it will be suicide, or armaggedon, or any other amount of catastrophe's that were predicted to befall the UK. At least he acknowledges that it will also be a catastrophe for Europe ( of course that should be EU )

 

So why are EU and remainer windbags intent on trying to block everything ?

 

Let me think, UK £££££££££££££££'s

[Grouse]

23 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

I think the Italians have learned a lot from the Brexit non - negotiations. They have dropped their Anti - EU stance and instead have turned the screw on the EU from a different angle.

 

We are the elected Government of Italy. This is the policies that we are going to implement for Italy, sit back and let the EU jump in feet first.

 

If the EU refuse to budge or veto what they are trying to implement, Referendum time. That might be a € referendum or an EU membership referendum.

 

Either way, chaos for the EU. Not forgetting that the provisional EU budget talks have started for the 2020 - 2027 budget which will already be missing the UK's ££££££'s.

Interesting that Italians have the fortitude to take a tough line with Brussels but we were too weak to do so. We should be staying in and changing the EU from within also 

[Grouse]

16 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

A well respected French man says

 

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news-review/bernard-henri-levys-brexit-lament-nkrnvwvss

 

I thought it was going to be another, woe is me and Brexit must be stopped because it will be suicide, or armaggedon, or any other amount of catastrophe's that were predicted to befall the UK. At least he acknowledges that it will also be a catastrophe for Europe ( of course that should be EU )

 

So why are EU and remainer windbags intent on trying to block everything ?

 

Let me think, UK £££££££££££££££'s

Thanks for article. Interesting read! 

[soalbundy]

31 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

 

 

What a nasty, horrible, spiteful and racist comment to make about our Monarchy and the British public, who have just enjoyed a wonderful day celebrating a fantastic royal wedding; a day full of fun, happiness and laughter. What a truly miserable person you must be ...... shame on you

Racist? what's wrong with having a black baby?

Not miserable, it's just all over the top with plenty of pathos, it's just a wedding for christs sake get over it. Fun, happiness and laughter, I get that without watching two spongers getting married.