Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[soalbundy]

46 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Wah, Wah, Wah, jjust wait until your father gets home.

 

How many times does this sort of garbage have to get peddled ? Where does the EU get its money ? Is Italy not a net contributor to the EU ?

 

When you are giving more than you receive that type of argument is nonsense.

 

 

They are saliving about the Lira and going back to their old ways, borrow and devalue, would be difficult now with debt at 134% of GDP, anyway most Italien governments don't last longer than a year, the EU can afford to sit this one out.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

I do not find it tiresome. I find it rib-tickling funny.

 

Having read the last 5 pages, there is some amount of verbal diarrhea being put in print.

 

None more so than here 

·       #6693

 #6697 

How intellectually superior and bright is someone who, not only posts off topic verbal diarrhea, but then goes onto answer themselves ?

 

Trying to link Grenfell to Brexit takes a special kind of stupidity.

I am not linking Grenfell to Brexit per se. I am saying that I trust "Brussels" more than the UK to maintain safety standards. Sorry that you found that concept intellectually challenging. ?

Edited May 20, 2018 by Grouse

[The Renegade]

2 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

They are saliving about the Lira and going back to their old ways, borrow and devalue, would be difficult now with debt at 134% of GDP, anyway most Italien governments don't last longer than a year, the EU can afford to sit this one out.

A great reply, except it has nothing to do with my comment.

 

Which was.

 

55 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Wah, Wah, Wah, jjust wait until your father gets home.

 

How many times does this sort of garbage have to get peddled ? Where does the EU get its money ? Is Italy not a net contributor to the EU ?

 

When you are giving more than you receive that type of argument is nonsense.

But think on your comment.

 

Is currently having a debt to GDP ratio of 134% a good advert for being in the € or the EU ?

[RuamRudy]

12 hours ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

John McDonnell or Jeremy Corbyn ??

I think they are atheists, are they not? No, I was referring to the type of terrorists who get the PM's seal of approval.

[The Renegade]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I am not linking Grenfell to Brexit per se. I am saying that I trust "Brussels" more than the UK to maintain safety standards. Sorry that you found that concept intellectually challenging. ?

Beef Scandals

 

Egg Scandals

 

VW Scandals

 

Banking Scandals

 

All very recent history, and in some cases still ongoing. For sure, great institution to put your trust in.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

55 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Interesting that Italians have the fortitude to take a tough line with Brussels but we were too weak to do so. We should be staying in and changing the EU from within also 

 

You have a point, but remember it was the Italian electorate that have taken a tough line with Brussels, and the coalition are just preparing to make good on electioneering promises.

 

The Brexit problem is the responsibility of Merkel, Junker and Cameron; none of the 3 believed for one minute that the UK would vote to leave, consequently, Merkel and Drunker sent Cameron away with a flea in his ear when he went seeking concessions. He in turn, thought that it didn't really matter that much as long as he made the perfunctory gesture of asking.

 

If Cameron’s stance had been, ‘look, I need to go back to the British public with some substantial concessions, otherwise I believe there is a good chance of a leave vote’ …… or better still  ‘if you don't offer me substantial concessions, I will recommend the electorate to vote leave’ I don't think we would be having these discussions

 

I also enjoyed the Royal wedding, apart from the eighty odd minutes when I was watching Saracens tear Wasps apart. Farrell was majestic, and Itoje and the Vunipola brothers look to be back to their best. ???✌️

Edited May 20, 2018 by Eloquent pilgrim

[soalbundy]

Just now, The Renegade said:

A great reply, except it has nothing to do with my comment.

 

Which was.

 

But think on your comment.

 

Is currently having a debt to GDP ratio of 134% a good advert for being in the € or the EU ?

Other countries have less, Holland 56% Denmark 36% Spain 98% UK 85%  Ireland 68% etc. It's a problem of mentality and no matter which way they go it will stay with them unfortunately, Italy is one of my favourite countries with lovable people, perhaps part of their charm is their blatant irresponsibility.

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

If Cameron’s stance had been, ‘look, I need to go back to the British public with some substantial concessions, otherwise I believe there is a good chance of a leave vote’ …… or better still  ‘if you don't offer me substantial concessions, I will recommend the electorate to vote leave’ I don't think we would be having these discussions

That nails it.

 

Cameron being a wet blanket has caused this, which is ironic, considering he is a staunch remainer.

 

It's 09.50 and I am now heading off for a Brexit Brunch, with extra Brexit bacon.

 

I will check in later for a remainer induced Brexit chuckle.

[The Renegade]

7 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Other countries have less, Holland 56% Denmark 36% Spain 98% UK 85%  Ireland 68% etc. It's a problem of mentality and no matter which way they go it will stay with them unfortunately, Italy is one of my favourite countries with lovable people, perhaps part of their charm is their blatant irresponsibility.

Fantastic.

 

Why is the EU blatantly disregarding its own rules for EZ Countries, which is no more than 60% debt to GDP ratio. Not only disregarding those rules, but assisting them to break those rules through the issuance of QE.

 

This is the organisations that 5 comments above, a remainer places great faith in 

[dick dasterdly]

51 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Interesting that Italians have the fortitude to take a tough line with Brussels but we were too weak to do so. We should be staying in and changing the EU from within also 

Sadly, that was never going to work - as has been made clear after the shock brexit vote.

 

I like some things about the eu, and had hoped that the brexit referendum result would be the catalyst for reform - but the eu are showing no intention of changing anything, preferring to rely on a refusal to even negotiate sensibly, hoping to frighten the uk electorate into changing their minds, and other country's eu electorate into being too frightened to consider leaving....

[SheungWan]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Sadly, that was never going to work - as has been made clear after the shock brexit vote.

I like some things about the eu, and had hoped that the brexit referendum result would be the catalyst for reform - but the eu are showing no intention of changing anything, preferring to rely on a refusal to even negotiate sensibly, hoping to frighten the uk electorate into changing their minds, and other country's eu electorate into being too frightened to consider leaving....

Trying to negotiate sensibly with a UK whose negotiating team seems to be in permanent disarray. Right.

[SheungWan]

12 hours ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

John McDonnell or Jeremy Corbyn ??

 

36 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I think they are atheists, are they not? No, I was referring to the type of terrorists who get the PM's seal of approval.

Well that's all right then. Not referring to the type of terrorist who gets atheist Corbyn's seal of approval.

[RuamRudy]

18 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

 

Well that's all right then. Not referring to the type of terrorist who gets atheist Corbyn's seal of approval.

But my point had nothing to do with either of the two. If either of them had proposed a former paramilitary to sit in the Lords in order to shore up their humiliatingly weak position then you might be onto something rather than simply joining in the desperate attempt at deflecting - come back to me when they do.

Edited May 20, 2018 by RuamRudy

[dick dasterdly]

11 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Trying to negotiate sensibly with a UK whose negotiating team seems to be in permanent disarray. Right.

Of course the uk govt. negotiating team are in permanent disarray - they are desperately trying to find a way to 'remain', without destroying their electoral chance in the next general election!

 

But my comment was directed towards the impossibility of changing the eu from within.  If they're not prepared to change anything even after the shock brexit referendum result, there's certainly no chance of changing anything from within.  Particularly as the uk govt. had little appetite for genuine change anyway....

[RuamRudy]

Some sobering reading for a Sunday morning:

 

Serious damage has been done thanks to Brexit

Brexit has made Britain an international joke

 

"I have many journalist friends both on the continent and in the US. They are absolutely as one in their view of what has happened here since the referendum. Their reaction has an uncannily unified patter: Shock begat amusement begat amazement begat amusement begat boredom.

...

The Suez Crisis was seen as the end of empire, The end of Britain's hard power. Now we see the coming end of our soft power... That's all but gone now."

[tebee]

21 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Sadly, that was never going to work - as has been made clear after the shock brexit vote.

 

I like some things about the eu, and had hoped that the brexit referendum result would be the catalyst for reform - but the eu are showing no intention of changing anything, preferring to rely on a refusal to even negotiate sensibly, hoping to frighten the uk electorate into changing their minds, and other country's eu electorate into being too frightened to consider leaving....

15 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Trying to negotiate sensibly with a UK whose negotiating team seems to be in permanent disarray. Right.

Others think May is trying to force the EU's hand  running the talks to the wire in the hope (or expectation) that the EU will cave in and give UK traders unrestricted access to Member State markets, with no political strings attached, relying on the oft' repeated Tory mantra that "they need us more then we need them".

 

I'm not sure she has the political nounce to try that, but  this would seem be a very high risk strategy, betting the farm on one wild spin of the wheel is never good.  Now we have run out of time when it comes to providing the infrastructure required to make a hard border work and she is taking a huge risk because there is no fall back on which she can usefully rely. We seem to be constantly expecting the EU to throw away it's principles for monetary gain, maybe we should not be in such a rush to see our standards in others.  

 

[Grouse]

51 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Beef Scandals

 

Egg Scandals

 

VW Scandals

 

Banking Scandals

 

All very recent history, and in some cases still ongoing. For sure, great institution to put your trust in.

Well let's put it down to different experiences. As a consultant engineer I deal with global standards and the EU are at the top of the tree. The UK is very good at enforcing many but not all of them. I genuinely worry that these might be relaxed post Brexit.

 

Its not my field (?) but at least the egg scandal was dealt with promptly

 

The VW "scandal" is a nonsense which was discussed at length on here a month ago.

 

To what "beef scandal" do you refer?

 

Finally bank and scandal are almost synonymous ?

[Eloquent pilgrim]

40 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Sadly, that was never going to work - as has been made clear after the shock brexit vote.

 

I like some things about the eu, and had hoped that the brexit referendum result would be the catalyst for reform - but the eu are showing no intention of changing anything, preferring to rely on a refusal to even negotiate sensibly, hoping to frighten the uk electorate into changing their minds, and other country's eu electorate into being too frightened to consider leaving....

Absolutely, it is in the DNA of all bullies. Point out to any bully that they are being unreasonable or are bullying, and they will only ever respond with more bullying and intimidation. Jean-Claude Juncker is a prime example. He takes his intoxication from two different sources, power, and I think everyone knows the other one

 

I don't know what it is with Luxembourg, this country of less than 600,000 inhabitants, but they also gave us Pierre Werner, back in the seventies, author of the “Werner report’

 

Ted Heath was warned of the report’s aspirations, but the only concern that he showed was that it be kept out of the public domain as much as possible.

 

"Werner's proposals, as a Foreign Office note to the British Prime Minister Edward Heath observed at the time, were "very far-reaching indeed," going "well beyond the full establishment of a Common Market," and possibly leading to "the ultimate creation of a European federal state, with a single currency” ……. this was exposed under the 30 year rule in 2001

[Grouse]

41 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Sadly, that was never going to work - as has been made clear after the shock brexit vote.

 

I like some things about the eu, and had hoped that the brexit referendum result would be the catalyst for reform - but the eu are showing no intention of changing anything, preferring to rely on a refusal to even negotiate sensibly, hoping to frighten the uk electorate into changing their minds, and other country's eu electorate into being too frightened to consider leaving....

Well here's an idea: discuss with Germany, France, and Italy what changes would be necessary for the U.K. To remain! Stop freedom of movement completely or partially? Junker's head on a plate? Drop Strasbourg? Abolish MEP per diem allowances. Make Farage King?

 

I sense sea changes ahead

 

There just MIGHT be a way forward

[soalbundy]

30 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Fantastic.

 

Why is the EU blatantly disregarding its own rules for EZ Countries, which is no more than 60% debt to GDP ratio. Not only disregarding those rules, but assisting them to break those rules through the issuance of QE.

 

This is the organisations that 5 comments above, a remainer places great faith in 

After Lehmann, QE was a necessity in all mature economies as I'm sure you know, the USA is winding down as is the EU, the UK has I believe finished QE. Switzerland and Japan are still doing QE with no sign of stopping. Roubini believes QE to a certain extent is here to stay, certainly at the next turn down it will all start again, one has to be pragmatic when rules and reality meet, breaking rules is meant to help but there are limits of course. 

[Grouse]

38 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

But my point had nothing to do with either of the two. If either of them had proposed a former paramilitary to sit in the Lords in order to shore up their humiliatingly weak position then you might be onto something rather than simply joining in the desperate attempt at deflecting - come back to me when they do.

RR, others are not necessarily as well informed as you ?

[dick dasterdly]

16 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Of course the uk govt. negotiating team are in permanent disarray - they are desperately trying to find a way to 'remain', without destroying their electoral chance in the next general election!

 

But my comment was directed towards the impossibility of changing the eu from within.  If they're not prepared to change anything even after the shock brexit referendum result, there's certainly no chance of changing anything from within.  Particularly as the uk govt. had little appetite for genuine change anyway....

 

Just now, Grouse said:

Well here's an idea: discuss with Germany, France, and Italy what changes would be necessary for the U.K. To remain! Stop freedom of movement completely or partially? Junker's head on a plate? Drop Strasbourg? Abolish MEP per diem allowances. Make Farage King?

 

I sense sea changes ahead

 

There just MIGHT be a way forward

Of course it's all down to opinion, but IMO the brit .govt. have no problem with cheap labour flooding into england/the ridiculously high salaries and benefits paid to EMPs and bureaucrats/the cronyism inherent throughout politics and big business/eu subsidies paid to their financial interests....

 

They intend to enrich themselves similarly at a later date, or are already doing so.  The Kinnocks are a prime example .

[Grouse]

36 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Some sobering reading for a Sunday morning:

 

Serious damage has been done thanks to Brexit

Brexit has made Britain an international joke

 

"I have many journalist friends both on the continent and in the US. They are absolutely as one in their view of what has happened here since the referendum. Their reaction has an uncannily unified patter: Shock begat amusement begat amazement begat amusement begat boredom.

...

The Suez Crisis was seen as the end of empire, The end of Britain's hard power. Now we see the coming end of our soft power... That's all but gone now."

Fabulous! Best article to date. I fully agree with the author. Thanks for posting it

[fulhamster]

25 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Well here's an idea: discuss with Germany, France, and Italy what changes would be necessary for the U.K. To remain! Stop freedom of movement completely or partially? Junker's head on a plate? Drop Strasbourg? Abolish MEP per diem allowances. Make Farage King?

 

I sense sea changes ahead

 

There just MIGHT be a way forward

 

The Uk held a referendum, the result is binding on all parties.

 

Much as I disagree with the result, we have to get on with it.

Everyone entitled to vote had their chance, no point whinging.

 

Surely the Brexit voters had detailed plans for leaving ? If not, why vote for it ?

[tebee]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Fabulous! Best article to date. I fully agree with the author. Thanks for posting it

Some twitter comments about this article 

 

I don’t think Brexists have the faintest inkling of how badly they have trashed the country’s image. The UK used to be associated with maturity and competence, and that incredibly valuable asset is now gone forever. Way to go patriots.
 

These intangible assets have real world consequences: attracting investment, boosting tourism and cultural exports, giving UK citizens the edge in international recruitment despite our poor linguistic skills. Most won’t have a clue until they notice it’s gone.

 

A priceless, priceless asset that we all owned as our common patrimony and Boris Johnson pissed it all up the wall because he’s an arrogant egomaniac. I could cry.

[owl sees all]

16 minutes ago, fulhamster said:

Surely the Brexit voters had detailed plans for leaving ? If not, why vote for it?

I'm sure the voters did not put together any detailed plans. 

 

I didn't and neither did anyone I know.

 

We just wanted 'out' of a rotten model that will implode anytime soon.

 

Best thing the UK has done since the introduction of decimalisation.

Edited May 20, 2018 by owl sees all

[fulhamster]

4 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

I'm sure the voters did not put together any detailed plans. 

 

I didn't and neither did anyone I know.

Because nobody expected the vote to go that way.

 

despite all the warnings on job losses, currency collapse etc.

[owl sees all]

19 minutes ago, fulhamster said:

Because nobody expected the vote to go that way.

 

despite all the warnings on job losses, currency collapse etc.

You did say 'voters' rather than official entities.

 

Cousin Kevin lives in France and he took his residence into consideration when advising his family which way to vote. But he was the only one I know who planned tor a different future. And I only found that out recently after he moved back to Tilbury Riverside. Done well on the exchange rate; did Kev! He moved out at 1.55 and came back at 1.11.

Edited May 20, 2018 by owl sees all

[dick dasterdly]

17 minutes ago, fulhamster said:

 

The Uk held a referendum, the result is binding on all parties.

 

Much as I disagree with the result, we have to get on with it.

Everyone entitled to vote had their chance, no point whinging.

 

Surely the Brexit voters had detailed plans for leaving ? If not, why vote for it ?

Good grief.  You're really blaming the voters who voted to leave??

 

They voted to leave and (IMO), thought that the uk and eu politicians would come to amicable terms that caused the least harm to either party.  Instead, the eu decided to pursue a blocking path - and the brit. govt. have acquiesced with their 'terms' !  Suprise, suprise .

Edited May 20, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[soalbundy]

14 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

I'm sure the voters did not put together any detailed plans. 

 

I didn't and neither did anyone I know.

 

We just wanted 'out' of a rotten model that will implode anytime soon.

 

Best thing the UK has done since the introduction of decimalisation.

and even that took Britain over 160 years, they first tried going decimal with the currency in 1849 when the florin (2 shillings) was introduced but gave up after that, as they are trying to do with the EU, but sure enough British resolve won through and they came back to the idea and in 1971 they went decimal. Coming back to the EU, if they ever leave, won't take as long.