Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

“The people do not have the right to overturn any decision made by Referendum or Government”

 

Watch and learn.

???

 

Are you organising a coup with a bunch of rabble rousers ?

 

???

[tebee]

10 hours ago, nauseus said:

You are confused. Brexit is not about rectifying any woes in the UK; it is about the EU. The referendum result is the long-awaited opportunity for the British to tell the EU that it is not as wonderful and necessary as it thinks it is. Common trade and travel (even reciprocal European employment/residence) agreements could be easily agreed between willing countries, without having to have these "four pillars" looming over an EU, which is shrinking within its own protectionist market.  

I think the EU knows it's not entirely wonderful,  it is changing all the time though, mostly for the better. No one is ever  completely satisfied with their government.

 

So Brexit will not fix any of the UK's many problems? Indeed it will probably make many worse - so why do it ? It seems to be a prime example of cutting off your nose to spite your face. 

[The Renegade]

8 minutes ago, tebee said:

I think the EU knows it's not entirely wonderful,  it is changing all the time though, mostly for the better.

Please explain how the EU is changing, mostly for the better ?

 

The EU's mantra is More EU, More EU, and even more EU and loads of extra money to fund it is not changing for the better.

 

These are the very things that are going to destroy the EU.

Edited May 31, 2018 by The Renegade

[tebee]

17 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Please explain how the EU is changing, mostly for the better ?

 

The EU's mantra is More EU, More EU, and even more EU and loads of extra money to fund is not changing for the better.

 

These are the very things that are going to destroy the EU.

Oh it's changing - surely  the leaver argument that the EU today is not the one we joined 35 years ago is proof of than ?

 

You don't notice the change from day to day though, much the same way you don't notice your own face changing - but it does over time.

 

To illustrate this this is the latest picture I can find of   myself ( I'm the one at the back with the stupid expression and hairy white legs) - compare that to my avatar picture( a few years old) 

 

 

[The Renegade]

13 minutes ago, tebee said:

Oh it's changing - surely  the leaver argument that the EU today is not the one we joined 35 years ago is proof of than ?

The UK joined the Common Market 45 years ago, not the EU.

 

I do not think that there will be many who disagree with the Common Market was a good idea, but they will certainly argue that what it morphed into was not such a great idea.

 

Why did you avoid the real meat of my comment ?

 

53 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Please explain how the EU is changing, mostly for the better ?

 

The EU's mantra is More EU, More EU, and even more EU and loads of extra money to fund it is not changing for the better.

 

These are the very things that are going to destroy the EU.

Afraid of reality ?

[vogie]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Brexit is failing.

 

Why is that?

Are you an american, just curious?

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

Are you an american, just curious?

So this is a dating site already!

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

So this is a dating site already!

No nothing untoward, I was just curious why an american would have such strong opinions about brexit.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

No nothing untoward, I was just curious why an american would have such strong opinions about brexit.

I’m curious how you draw these conclusions.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m curious how you draw these conclusions.

Your use of american english.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

Your use of american english.

Maybe I watch a lot of America movies and read a lot of American litterature.

 

Maybe your attention to these things is not altogether healthy.

 

This is not a dating site, lay off reaching out for personal details.

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Maybe I watch a lot of America movies and read a lot of American litterature.

 

Maybe your attention to these things is not altogether healthy.

 

This is not a dating site, lay off reaching out for personal details.

Can I just assure you, your personal details are the last I would want. Have a nice day.

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Brexit is failing.

 

Why is that?

Because the majority of uk politicians/eu politicians/big business do not want the uk to leave.

 

It's a wasteful gravy train, and they enjoy the benefits of these faults.

[tebee]

20 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

The UK joined the Common Market 45 years ago, not the EU.

 

I do not think that there will be many who disagree with the Common Market was a good idea, but they will certainly argue that what it morphed into was not such a great idea.

 

Why did you avoid the real meat of my comment ?

 

Afraid of reality ?

Yes  sorry work interrupted so I just posted  where I was upto .

 

Good changes - the adoption of QMV for more important decisions, CAP reform(still ongoing) better enforcement of  regulation to ensure the even playing field, they are also, in spite of what some people say, working hard to eliminate fraud and corruption..

 

The EU is not taking over everything It's total budget is about the same as the UK budget for public pensions - but for a population many times larger.

 

It also believes in subsidiarity, decisions are taken as near to the local level as is possible.

  

[The Renegade]

5 minutes ago, tebee said:

Good changes - the adoption of QMV for more important decisions, CAP reform(still ongoing) better enforcement of  regulation to ensure the even playing field, they are also, in spite of what some people say, working hard to eliminate fraud and corruption..

The adoption of QMV is a good thing ? In a club of 28 equals, QMV is never a good thing. So lets cut to the chase, QMV was introduced to get rid of Countries veto's

 

Cap reform ? I would wait on that one. The way I hear it French Farmers are going to be up in arms.

 

Better enforcement of Regulations. Yes indeed, that is a cracker. I wont list the scandals that have hit the news in the last year or 2. Suffice to say, that the EU does not actually enforce many regulations, it passes that down to Nation States, which is a bit like letting the foxes guard the hen house

 

20 minutes ago, tebee said:

It also believes in subsidiarity, decisions are taken as near to the local level as is possible.

Can you name one ?

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Because the majority of uk politicians/eu politicians/big business do not want the uk to leave.

 

It's a wasteful gravy train, and they enjoy the benefits of these faults.

Your first sentence -agreed.

 

Thereafter I disagree. 

 

But we can’t agree on everything, that would be dull.

[tebee]

57 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Because the majority of uk politicians/eu politicians/big business do not want the uk to leave.

 

It's a wasteful gravy train, and they enjoy the benefits of these faults.

Just where is the money supply for this gravy train coming from ?

 

Total EU spend in the UK is about 8 billion pounds which is less than 1% of the UK government budget. Most of that money is distributed by the UK anyway - 40% of it is CAP payments which DEFRA distribute for a start.

 

Not much left to bribe all those people

[tebee]

4 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

The adoption of QMV is a good thing ? In a club of 28 equals, QMV is never a good thing. So lets cut to the chase, QMV was introduced to get rid of Countries veto's

 

Cap reform ? I would wait on that one. The way I hear it French Farmers are going to be up in arms.

 

Better enforcement of Regulations. Yes indeed, that is a cracker. I wont list the scandals that have hit the news in the last year or 2. Suffice to say, that the EU does not actually enforce many regulations, it passes that down to Nation States, which is a bit like letting the foxes guard the hen house

 

Can you name one ?

It article 5 of the Treaty 

 

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/subsidiarity.html

 

As an example the EU has helped fund regional or devolved assemblies in many countries,like our own Scottish and Welsh ones.

[The Renegade]

16 minutes ago, tebee said:

As an example the EU has helped fund regional or devolved assemblies in many countries,like our own Scottish and Welsh ones.

Never once in 45 years has the UK been a net receiver from the EU.

 

Those Scottish and Welsh ones you mention are actually funded by the money that the UK gives the EU.

 

The surplus money that does not come back to the UK goes to fund the 18 Net recipient Countries of EU Cash, which comes from 8 Net Contributing Countries.

[tebee]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Brexit is failing.

 

Why is that?

I suspect it will fail because of it's inherent contradictions. As a prime example of this must be the promise to eliminate Europe's "Red Tape"  - but only at the price of introducing twice as much red tape of our own. 

 

The Brexit we are in the middle of at the moment will fail because we charged into it in a fit of bravado and nationalistic fervor without thinking what we wanted from it and what the consequences of our action would be.

 

We are now two years down the line and still have no better idea of what we want ! Assuming we don't decide to just kick the can down the road for another X years we currently have 2 options.

 

1 leave with no future agreement. Will cause a major recession in the UK, huge job losses. Many pray for this but it will be very unpopular and there will be be hell to pay for it in the future.

 

2 give the whole idea up for now  and revoke article 50. Probably equally unpopular, but less an act of self harm. But maybe, just maybe, then we can have a resoned debate about what we want for the future and what sort of country we want.

 

There is no good solution going forward now, but this is where the incompetence of out current government has got us

[billd766]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Given the back tracking, weak and wobbly weaving and the evaporation of ‘red lines’, I have no expectation of a long wait.

 

Neither do Brexiteers, which is why they are becoming increasingly agitated.

 

From the posts I have read going back to the very beginning of this thread it appears to me that the Brexiteers are not getting that agitated and it is mostly the Remainers who are "demanding" another referendum.

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Maybe I watch a lot of America movies and read a lot of American litterature.

 

Maybe your attention to these things is not altogether healthy.

 

This is not a dating site, lay off reaching out for personal details.

Personnel details, well I for one have noticed that a number of non Brits have commentated on T.V. that they do not consider Brexit a good idea, although to be fair,they are mostly Europeans, who do have financial reasons for the U.K to be tied to this so called union. As for yourself,this is a forum, where we are not required to provide our names or addresses, however your reluctance to divulge your true nationality speaks volumes.

Edited May 31, 2018 by nontabury

[tebee]

20 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Never once in 45 years has the UK been a net receiver from the EU.

 

Those Scottish and Welsh ones you mention are actually funded by the money that the UK gives the EU.

 

The surplus money that does not come back to the UK goes to fund the 18 Net recipient Countries of EU Cash, which comes from 8 Net Contributing Countries.

But all the money the EU gets comes from what the constituent governments give it - it has no direct tax raising capabilities of its own.

 

We've always paid more in that we got out because we are a relatively rich country - but that's much the same as you would expect say income tax to work? Of course Brexit may fix this for us, but not in the way you'd like it to......

Edited May 31, 2018 by tebee

[aright]

5 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017

 

The referrendum did not suspend the ongoing process of democracy.

 

 

 

Of course it didn't. This is the current state of democracy

 

[aright]

56 minutes ago, tebee said:

But all the money the EU gets comes from what the constituent governments give it - it has no direct tax raising capabilities of its own.

 

We've always paid more in that we got out because we are a relatively rich country - but that's much the same as you would expect say income tax to work? Of course Brexit may fix this for us, but not in the way you'd like it to......

But the EU can raise income through the "EU's own resources programme" and one of the biggest money spinners of all is tarrifs.  A tarrif is a tax on imported goods and the EU gets 80% of that income 20% being returned to member states as collection fees.

They are also looking to increase their tax raising abilities.

 

• The European Commission said it wants to introduce new taxes for large technology companies in Europe.
• It wants companies to pay a 3% tax on their turnover on online services in the EU.
• The tax plans are likely to affect US tech giants including Google, Facebook, and Amazon.
• The plans are not yet law, and depend on EU states backing them.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/the-eu-wants-to-raise-taxes-for-giant-tech-companies-in-europe-2018-3?r=US&IR=T

[The Renegade]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

But all the money the EU gets comes from what the constituent governments give it - it has no direct tax raising capabilities of its own.

Tebee,

 

We had this out already.

 

What is VAT ? That thing you made a song and dance about that the UK would not be able to leave the EU over.

 

Value Added TAX, a revenue earner for the EU, along with import TAXES that are generally called tariffs.

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

Just where is the money supply for this gravy train coming from ?

 

Total EU spend in the UK is about 8 billion pounds which is less than 1% of the UK government budget. Most of that money is distributed by the UK anyway - 40% of it is CAP payments which DEFRA distribute for a start.

 

Not much left to bribe all those people

Let's not forget the £150m it costs to move the European Parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg once a month, for 4 days. That must also eat into the bribe money.

All 751 of it's MEPs and everyone else who works at the EP, travelling by train, plane and car. And their crate loads of paperwork driven down in a fleet of lorries.

Waste?  What waste!

 

 

[soalbundy]

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

Personnel details, well I for one have noticed that a number of non Brits have commentated on T.V. that they do not consider Brexit a good idea, although to be fair,they are mostly Europeans, who do have financial reasons for the U.K to be tied to this so called union. As for yourself,this is a forum, where we are not required to provide our names or addresses, however your reluctance to divulge your true nationality speaks volumes.

His nationality is none of your business and he has the right to comment here even if he comes from Timbuktu. A lot of Brits comment on Trump, perhaps they shouldn't be allowed to

[soalbundy]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

 

From the posts I have read going back to the very beginning of this thread it appears to me that the Brexiteers are not getting that agitated and it is mostly the Remainers who are "demanding" another referendum.

Seems a sensible thing to do, then if leave wins with a decent majority it could, if not joyfully, be  accepted by the remainers who would then keep quiet.

[aright]

2 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Seems a sensible thing to do, then if leave wins with a decent majority it could, if not joyfully, be  accepted by the remainers who would then keep quiet.

And if Remain wins with a small majority what would you recommend?