Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[7by7]

22 minutes ago, transam said:

Yes I did know of folk employing EU folk cash in hand..

Doubtless, given your strong beliefs, you reported them to HMRC; didn't you? Just as you doubtless report any foreigners you know in Thailand who break the law to the Thai authorities.

 

23 minutes ago, transam said:

We are not talking about naughty Brits, we are talking about foreign folk here. Your usual foreigner protection deviation...

I thought we were talking about people breaking the law! 

 

Perhaps you will show us all where in my many recent posts showing the measures designed to stop foreigners from breaking the law I have posted "foreigner protection deviation!"

 

Your pathetic comment is typical of you; you have no actual answer, so make up a false accusation!

[StreetCowboy]

2 hours ago, transam said:

Yes I did know of folk employing EU folk cash in hand..

We are not talking about naughty Brits, we are talking about foreign folk here. Your usual foreigner protection deviation...

 

 

I am guessing that a lot of the people employing EU nationals cash in hand (including British EU nationals) and employing non-EU nationals cash in hand, are British.  And some will be other EU nationals, and some will be non-EU nationals.  I don't think it is sensible to turn a blind eye to the British criminals that employ foreign people without work permits, and to be honest I have more sympathy with the people that want to work than with the people that want to skimp on PAYE and NI

[StreetCowboy]

2 hours ago, ivor bigun said:

Yes and the last thing Britain needs is thousands of scroungers from other countrys to join them.

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Are you sure that is the last thing that we want?

What about a resurgence of the bubonic plague?

Another war in Europe?

Bankruptcy of a major British bank?

Civil unrest related to inequitable taxes?

 

A few thousand scrounging foreigners are a small price to pay, particularly if they steal jobs, work productively and pay taxes.

[7by7]

3 hours ago, ivor bigun said:

Yes and the last thing Britain needs is thousands of scroungers from other countrys to join them.
 

What you and others of your belief continuously fail to acknowledge is the the majority of EEA nationals in the UK are not scrounging.

 

The latest figures, May 2018, from the ONS show that out of an estimated 3.7 million EEA nationals living in the UK, 2.29 million, 62%,  of them are working, paying tax and NICs. Before anyone makes a comment about cash in hand, if any of this 2.29 million were working illegally they would not be in the figures!

 

Of the remainder, 20% are students and 12% are family members.

 

The remaining 6% may all be scroungers, but not that many; I suspect that the majority of them are living on independent means such as a pension; but cannot prove it as all the figures I can find simply list them as 'other.'

 

When the scrounger argument is shown to be a lie, a common response is that these EEA migrants are stealing jobs from British people. Well, one simple question, if British people want those jobs, why are they available for migrants to take?

 

I once asked the person in charge of road sweepers for the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea why all his road sweepers were eastern Europeans. He replied that even though they paid above minimum wage, plus a London allowance, British people rarely voluntarily applied, and if sent for interview by the Job Centre either never turned up or if they did behaved in such a way to make sure they weren't offered a job. Even when he did offer a Brit a job, it was rare for them to turn up for their first day. 

 

We concluded that this was a combination of reasons; the main one being that the average Brit considers road sweeping and picking up litter to be beneath them; especially when they can get their rent paid for by the taxpayer!

[aright]

11 hours ago, Grouse said:

Yes, very true.

 

I contend that populist (shallow, ill thought out, simplistic) ideas have caused signicant damage. They give democracy a bad name.

So does  Martin Selmayr  and the  authoritarian European Commission who gave rise to right wing populist parties. It's naïve to think these parties just happened;  they were born out of serious discontent. Please tell us what your preferred response mechanism, the EU Commission, has done to appease this discontent? 

[nontabury]

6 hours ago, 7by7 said:Yes, Merkel was, naturally if you think about it, keen for other member states to take what she conceived to be their fair share of refugees. Whether the UK has done so depends on who you believe; for example the government says we have, Oxfam says we haven't. But any such agreement is voluntary; it does not mean the EU has any control over non EEA national immigration to the UK, or any other member state.

 

"Free to move to other member states once they were given their papers." The reality is more complicated than your simple statement. I'll summarise as best I can.

 

Nationals of EEA member states are free to move to other member states, either temporarily as tourists or for longer in order to exercise an economic treaty right as explained earlier. 

You could have said “ E.U nationals are free to move to other member states, in order to take jobs from the lowest and most vulnerable workers of that country, or  to impact the salaries of those same lower paid people”.

  Just this very morning,while in conversation with a lady we first met,when we returned to the U.K in January. She mentioned that her husband,who is a farm worker,puts in 60-70 hrs a week during the summer months in order to support his family. During the winter months his hours are drastically reduced in order that the farmers/ farm companies can employ Eastern European workers,who consider the cold working conditions to be fairly mild,compared to their home countries. They only stay for about 5 months,or untill they reach the £11,800 tax threshold, then they return home, while still claiming child benefits for the full 12 months, even though their children never enter the U.K. Some do bring their wives and children to the U.K for these few months, when they are also entitled to claim Child tax credits, housing benefits etc. This I queried with her,as I was under the impression that the government had had put a stop to this. She told me that they simple continue to register their presence in the U.K.

 This lady is not anti the immigrants as such, but she is very angry at the E.U’s open boarder policy and also very,very angry with those of her fellow citizens, who selfishly do not give a shxt about her, and the predicament the E.U has caused. She also mentioned that her best friend is a Polish lady, who thinks the British are stupid to allow this state of affairs to continue. So perhaps it’s a good thing to allow unrestricted entry to the Poles,as at least they seem to have a degree of common sense, which many of the remainers are lacking.

 

 

[nontabury]

6 hours ago, 7by7 said:

When was this?

 

As previously stated, both the law and the enforcement of the law have been considerably tightened up over the last decade; particularly since 2010 when the Tory/LibDem coalition took over from Labour. Even more so in the last 5 years with the Tories declared intent to create a hostile environment for illegal immigrants in the UK. Now

• Private landlords are required to check the immigration status of their tenants, under a rule known as "right to rent,"
• The NHS also has to carry out checks as part of its legal duty to identify and charge patients who don't qualify for free medical care for their treatment,
• The Home Office has been given greater powers to investigate and prevent "sham marriages,"
• The driving licence authority has been given powers to restrict migrants' access to licences,
• Banks and building societies must conduct checks of the immigration status of their customers,
• Employers have to check their workers' immigration status.

Landlords, banks and employers can all face large fines and even prison if they do not carry out these checks.

 

 

  Correct to a point-

Regarding housing,I watched an article on T.V recently. A 3 bedroomed semi in London was occupied by about 35 Romainians, this being completely illegal, as it was against many laws, including fire regulations. The landlord was also Romanians. Seemingly this is not a isolated occurrence.

 

Many Hospitals do not in fact check if patients are entitled to NHS treatment. Law or no Law.

 

While the Home office have indeed been given powers to restrict sham marriages. Do you honestly think they are 100% successful?

 

Driving licencies, your having a laugh surely.Many if not most illegal immigrants don’t bother to even consider obtaining a driving licence. Same for insurance, allthough to be fair, I have read articles that suggest 1,000,000 drivers, British-and foreigners, are driving on U.K roads without car insurance.

 

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, StreetCowboy said:

Are you sure that is the last thing that we want?

What about a resurgence of the bubonic plague?

Another war in Europe?

Bankruptcy of a major British bank?

Civil unrest related to inequitable taxes?

 

A few thousand scrounging foreigners are a small price to pay, particularly if they steal jobs, work productively and pay taxes.

As long as it’s not the job of a selfish remainer. Then it's o.K.

[Chelseafan]

9 hours ago, aright said:

According to a Sky report this morning "Sophy Ridge on Sunday" only 2% of trucks are inspected at Dover .

I believe potential immigrants at Calais are there because they through word of mouth or the reports from successful stowaways or desperation believe they can get to the UK.     Lets reverse your question:-

If the border wall is as solid and non porous as you and others  suggest why do so many people bother camping around a wall which they have very little hope of penetrating? 

I didn't say it was porous just merely speculating that we don't really know how many  people get into the UK. For every immigrant that gets caught how many get through - I don't know but look at it another way, how many people get caught smuggling a little extra contraband in their suitcase when going through customs to those that don't get caught - we all do it and as a prolific traveller I've been stopped once in the last 15 or so years.

 

Is Calais the real issue ? The focus (certainly by the media) wold have you think it is but it's not the only place where immigrants congregate. We would be naive to think otherwise.

 

 

 

[Chelseafan]

9 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 Again, you have not understood what I wrote. I did not say you had accused me of anything; I said before you do!

 

The reason why it is obvious that you failed to understand the post you first quoted is because I was talking about Transam's figure of 400 UK Border Force officers employed at Calais, and you 'corrected 'that figure as being too low for the number of migrants wanting and/or attempting to enter the UK there!

 

It is perfectly possible that people attempting to enter the UK via the tunnel or channel ports enter a lorry or other vehicle well before arrival at the French or Belgian or wherever exit port; but it is at these exit ports that the vehicles are stopped and searched.

 

I, too, don't know how many vehicles are stopped and searched before entering the UK, either by UK Border Force on leaving the continent or by HMRC on arrival in the UK; but your 80% chance surmise assumes that every lorry has a stash of illegals inside. Are you really accusing every single lorry driver who enters the UK, including British ones, of being involved in people smuggling?

 

Most are not, they are honest, not criminals and so comply with the requirement that they check their vehicles and take all reasonable care to ensure illegal migrants have not hidden themselves within or underneath it. So your 80% chance only applies to the small minority of drivers willing to take the risk of being caught; a fine of up to £2000 per illegal migrant found in their vehicle.

 

BTW, still no answer to the question originally asked!

 

I did not correct any figure so I think you misunderstood MY post. I stated the amount of possible immigrants in Calais not how may UK Border Force officers employed at Calais.

 

You also misunderstood my comment about the %age of vehicles - I stated that the CHANCES of getting in for a would be immigrant would be 80% based on 1 in 5 vehicles being stopped not that 80% of vehicles have an immigrant onboard

 

I sort of agree with you but there are a lot of innocent truckers who are being caught up in the net as they didn't realise someone had sneaked onboard  We have had 2 instances in the last year whereby our Depot has offloaded a truck from Europe and found immigrants stashed inside. The driver in each case was totally unaware.

 

Not sure what question you want me to answer.

 

 

 

 

 

[sandyf]

I wonder how many still think that post brexit the UK can look forward to a beneficial trade deal with the US.

 

The joint statement between the leaders of US, France, Germany, the UK, Japan, Italy, and Canada comes after US President Donald Trump refused to back down from his decision to impose international tariffs on goods including steel and aluminium imports as a part of his so-called "America First" strategy.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/g7-trump-trade-communique-summit-tariffs-us-eu-climate-change-may-macron-a8391601.html

[Grouse]

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-44431072/ken-clarke-mps-should-vote-for-a-softer-sensible-brexit

 

Wise words from Ken as usual.

 

(watch the silly populists attempt to shoot him down without considering the veracity of his words)

[The Renegade]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-44431072/ken-clarke-mps-should-vote-for-a-softer-sensible-brexit

 

Wise words from Ken as usual.

 

(watch the silly populists attempt to shoot him down without considering the veracity of his words)

A softer, sensible Brexit means tied to Brussels and the ECJ, whilst handing over £ Billions for the priviledge,  this is not Brexit.

 

( watch the so called highly educated remainers attempt to shoot this down and claim otherwise )

 

Quote

Ministers and aides indicated that they remain “quietly reassured” that they have the numbers to pass the EU withdrawal bill when it returns to the lower chamber on Tuesday.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/10/government-confident-on-brexit-votes-despite-threat-of-rebel-mps

 

By Friday, hopefully everything will be a little bit clearer.

[aright]

Excellent News!

The UK’s tech sector is soaring ahead of its competitors in Europe, attracting more venture capital investment last year than Germany, France and Sweden combined.

British tech businesses attracted $7.8bn of funding last year, which was almost double the amount received in 2016. 

Research by Dealroom and Tech Nation showed that the UK’s venture capital investment last year was higher than Germany’s total of $3.2bn and France, which brought in $2.8bn.

The boost to its tech sector has helped to propel the UK’s growth of foreign direct investment (FDI), helping it to remain the top destination for such funding."

 

https://www.exaronews.com/foreign-investment-in-uk-technology-firms-doubles-in-just-one-year

[The Renegade]

13 minutes ago, aright said:

Excellent News!

Indeed.

 

Contrary to the many claims by highly educated remainers, many who seem to think making up stories make them highly educated.

 

Quote

Britain has retained its place as the top European destination for foreign investment, but its lead over France and Germany has narrowed.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/business/uks-lead-on-foreign-investment-falls-tzs0fvqp7

 

There was even one dimwit claiming that Inward Investment to the UK had slumped by 90%.

 

[Grouse]

29 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

A softer, sensible Brexit means tied to Brussels and the ECJ, whilst handing over £ Billions for the priviledge,  this is not Brexit.

 

( watch the so called highly educated remainers attempt to shoot this down and claim otherwise )

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/10/government-confident-on-brexit-votes-despite-threat-of-rebel-mps

 

By Friday, hopefully everything will be a little bit clearer.

Many Brexiters say that they still want a "common market" There would be a majority for that but not a hard brexitBrexit

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

Many Brexiters say that they still want a "common market" There would be a majority for that but not a hard brexitBrexit

Do they really ?

 

I have heard plenty of Leavers say that the original Common Market that the UK joined was a great idea and  should never have been allowed to morph into today's EU. Never heard anyone say that that we could now try for a new Common Market.

 

Now show your workings for claiming that there would be a majority for that.

 

I am fairly confident that a highly educated person would not be making claims without being able to back them up. That would fall into the very stupid category.

[dick dasterdly]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Many Brexiters say that they still want a "common market" There would be a majority for that but not a hard brexitBrexit

I've little doubt that brexiteers would have preferred a trade deal with the eu, but the eu has no interest in discussing a trade deal - and the uk govt. has accepted their agenda! ?

 

A trade deal should have been THE FIRST item on the agenda - not the last....

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

A trade deal should have been THE FIRST item on the agenda - not the last....

Disagree slightly.

 

The '' First Item '' on the agenda should have been.

 

'' The UK leaves the EU on 29 March 2019 and WTO rules apply '' Everyone now has 2 years to sort their sh!t out and do what they need to do.

 

During that period the UK and the EU may or may not discuss a mutually beneficial trade deal that is better than WTO rules.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

45 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Many Brexiters say that they still want a "common market" There would be a majority for that but not a hard brexitBrexit

Many ?

can you please define your interpretation of ‘many’ and provide some factual evidence in support of your claim ..... please 

[tebee]

16 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Disagree slightly.

 

The '' First Item '' on the agenda should have been.

 

'' The UK leaves the EU on 29 March 2019 and WTO rules apply '' Everyone now has 2 years to sort their sh!t out and do what they need to do.

 

During that period the UK and the EU may or may not discuss a mutually beneficial trade deal that is better than WTO rules.

But we have wasted that 2 years, both not doing any preparation for trading on WTO rules nor come up with any workable ideas for a mutually beneficial trade deal.

[CG1 Blue]

On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 4:30 AM, tebee said:

The problem with most populist policies are today's problems are complex and it's hard for the masses to understand them. Simple solutions are almost invariably wrong, but the populist masses can understand them. 

There is no solution to this that is compatible with democracy though, other than having educated and informed press and politicians - which we don't at the moment.

 

  

I've missed a few days, so apologies if this has been said.

 

To me, 'simple but wrong' would be staying tied into the EU. You know, don't rock the boat, stick with the status quo, carry on being shafted because change is too scary.

'Complex but right' perfectly describes our escape from the EU. It's complex, at times it will be an uphill struggle, but it is the right thing to do.

 

And this picture to me depicts the masses, worn down by our government's failure to negotiate from a position of strength (weakened by all the Remain saboteurs), fatigued by project fear, and returning defeated to the clutches of the EU.

But that's not going to happen. We're leaving!

 

[The Renegade]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

But we have wasted that 2 years, both not doing any preparation for trading on WTO rules nor come up with any workable ideas for a mutually beneficial trade deal.

OK tebee.

 

What has the EU / Ireland done in preparation for WTO rules ?

 

Could you kindly post the speed dial numbers for both Theresa May and Barnier, we should all be able to speak to them direct ??

 

You appear to think that everything that is going on is being reported on the press. There will be a multitude of back door talks going on that the press / media do not hear about.

 

Nothing has been done because a deal will be struck, probably at the 11th hour. How mutually beneficial it will be remains to be seen.

[Grouse]

53 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Do they really ?

 

I have heard plenty of Leavers say that the original Common Market that the UK joined was a great idea and  should never have been allowed to morph into today's EU. Never heard anyone say that that we could now try for a new Common Market.

 

Now show your workings for claiming that there would be a majority for that.

 

I am fairly confident that a highly educated person would not be making claims without being able to back them up. That would fall into the very stupid category.

My, my, that's really is a huge chip on your shoulder!

 

Anyway, there was a discussion on radio 4 today program on this topic.

 

As you may recall 52% of votes cast in the referendum were for leave. I contend that a significant proportion of those would prefer to remain in a/the customs union and maintain single market compliance.

 

I think many MPs will go with such a compromise.

 

I certainly believe that those hoping for a great deal with the USA will be disappointed ?

[The Renegade]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

My, my, that's really is a huge chip on your shoulder!

 

Anyway, there was a discussion on radio 4 today program on this topic.

 

As you may recall 52% of votes cast in the referendum were for leave. I contend that a significant proportion of those would prefer to remain in a/the customs union and maintain single market compliance.

 

I think many MPs will go with such a compromise.

 

I certainly believe that those hoping for a great deal with the USA will be disappointed ?

Great reply, but you were actually asked

 

56 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Now show your workings for claiming that there would be a majority for that.

 

I am fairly confident that a highly educated person would not be making claims without being able to back them up. That would fall into the very stupid category.

You made a claim, now back it up.

[Grouse]

22 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Many ?

can you please define your interpretation of ‘many’ and provide some factual evidence in support of your claim ..... please 

Origin and Etymology of many

 

Middle English, from Old English manig; akin to Old High German manag many, Old Church Slavonic mŭnogŭ much

 

1. 

a large number of.

"many people agreed with her"

synonyms:

numerous, a great/good deal of, a lot of, plenty of, countless, innumerable, scores of, crowds of, droves of, an army of, a horde of, a multitude of, a multiplicity of, multitudinous, multiple, untold;  several, various, sundry, diverse, assorted, multifarious;  copious, abundant, profuse, an abundance of, a profusion of;  informallots of, umpteen, loads of, masses of, stacks of, scads of, heaps of, piles of, bags of, tons of, oodles of, dozens of, hundreds of, thousands of, millions of, billions of, zillions of, gazillions of, bajillions of, a slew of, a boatload of, more —— than one can shake a stick at;  literarymyriad,   OK?

Edited June 11, 2018 by Grouse

[Grouse]

16 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Great reply, but you were actually asked

 

You made a claim, now back it up.

I was quoting an MP on Radio 4 Today.

 

I realise that may be not your cup of tea, but nonetheless I think that's right.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/17/majority-of-brexiters-would-swap-free-movement-for-eu-market-access#comment-102195985

 

And here's an MSM piece for you

Edited June 11, 2018 by Grouse

[The Renegade]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I was quoting an MP on Radio 4 Today.

 

I realise that may be not your cup of tea, but nonetheless I think that's right.

Am I to take it that this one MP that you quote somehow manages to magically transform into, and I quote

 

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Many Brexiters say that they still want a "common market" There would be a majority for that but not a hard brexitBrexit

???

 

You know, that is why remainers still think that Brexit will be reversed. In the deluded minds of remainers

 

'' 1 = Many ''

[tebee]

25 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

OK tebee.

 

What has the EU / Ireland done in preparation for WTO rules ?

 

Could you kindly post the speed dial numbers for both Theresa May and Barnier, we should all be able to speak to them direct ??

 

You appear to think that everything that is going on is being reported on the press. There will be a multitude of back door talks going on that the press / media do not hear about.

 

Nothing has been done because a deal will be struck, probably at the 11th hour. How mutually beneficial it will be remains to be seen.

Ireland has opened up new sea routes direct to the mainland, avoiding the Uk.

 

The Netherlands are employing and training 5000 new customs staff and redeveloping the port of Rotterdam to cope with customs inspections to / from the Uk.

 

The EU has a lot less to do implementing WTO tariffs as it already trades with those other rest of the world countries it does not have trade deals with.  The  UK merely changes from partt of the single market to one of those "other" countries.

 

For the UK it needs to set it own set of WTO tariffs first, probably just adopting the EU ones to start, though we will need to sort out how we divide  the quota allowances. 

[The Renegade]

10 minutes ago, Grouse said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/17/majority-of-brexiters-would-swap-free-movement-for-eu-market-access#comment-102195985

 

And here's an MSM piece for you

From July 2017 ??

 

The desperado's are getting desperate.