Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[Chomper Higgot]

The Brexiteers' darling Rees Mogg has just run his mouth off again on LBC phone in, declaring 'there would be no need for Customs checks at Dover under a no deal scenario because European goods could be trusted'.

 

Let's not get into the EU standards applied to European goods so they can be 'trusted'. 

 

Let's go straight to the legal advice that points out that allowing imports from the EU into a post Brexit UK without the same customs checks as all other goods would be a breach of WTO rules.

 

The same WTO rules that Brexiteers carp on about being the saving of Post Brexit UK. 

 

This would be wonderful comedy, except this is a sick farce. 

[aright]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

http://europe.autonews.com/article/20180611/ANE/180619943?template=mobile02&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1

 

Land Rover to move all Discovery production to Slovakia from 2019. Why 2019 I have no idea. Tragic.

 

More Project Fear!

Moving the Discovery to Nitra - which will also build Jaguar’s E-Pace small SUV - will clear the way for a huge investment programme at Solihull, which insiders have previously described as “bursting at the seams”.

 

JLR will spend hundreds of millions of pounds on new technology and retooling at the factory so it can build the next generations of the Range Rover and Range Rover Sport, a plan which is expected to affect about a third of the crammed site.

The company also confirmed that it will build the new version of the “baby” Range Rover, the Evoque, at the company’s Halewood plant on Merseyside.

A JLR spokesman said: “The decision to move the Discovery to Slovakia and the potential losses of some agency employed staff in the UK is a tough one but forms part of our long-term manufacturing strategy as we transform our business globally.”

He added: “This significant investment and technology upgrade in Solihull in order to accommodate our next-generation of flagship Land Rover models, and the refit of our Halewood plant for the next Evoque, is proof that we remain committed both to the UK and to transformation and growth.

 

[7by7]

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 5:40 PM, nontabury said:

You could have said “ E.U nationals are free to move to other member states, in order to take jobs from the lowest and most vulnerable workers of that country, or  to impact the salaries of those same lower paid people”.

  Just this very morning,while in conversation with a lady we first met,when we returned to the U.K in January. She mentioned that her husband,who is a farm worker,puts in 60-70 hrs a week during the summer months in order to support his family. During the winter months his hours are drastically reduced in order that the farmers/ farm companies can employ Eastern European workers,who consider the cold working conditions to be fairly mild,compared to their home countries. They only stay for about 5 months,or untill they reach the £11,800 tax threshold, then they return home, while still claiming child benefits for the full 12 months, even though their children never enter the U.K. Some do bring their wives and children to the U.K for these few months, when they are also entitled to claim Child tax credits, housing benefits etc. This I queried with her,as I was under the impression that the government had had put a stop to this. She told me that they simple continue to register their presence in the U.K.

 This lady is not anti the immigrants as such, but she is very angry at the E.U’s open boarder policy and also very,very angry with those of her fellow citizens, who selfishly do not give a shxt about her, and the predicament the E.U has caused. She also mentioned that her best friend is a Polish lady, who thinks the British are stupid to allow this state of affairs to continue. So perhaps it’s a good thing to allow unrestricted entry to the Poles,as at least they seem to have a degree of common sense, which many of the remainers are lacking.

 

 

 

No one who knows any UK history knows that UK farmers employing seasonal migrant workers predates the EU by centuries!

 

It probably existed before, but began in earnest in the late 17th and early 18th centuries with the increased productivity brought about by, among other things, the growing of crops such as turnips instead of leaving fields lying fallow in the winter. In those days the migrant workers came from other parts of the UK, and many were women and children. As now, they worked for as long as they were wanted before moving on to find work elsewhere.

 

The increase in better paid, more secure factory jobs in the 19th century and the social reforms in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, such as the Gangs Act in 1867 banning the employment of children under the age of 8, meant that the availability of home grown seasonal farm workers became more restricted, even though demand for them was increasing as farming became more efficient. 

 

But your farm worker's wife acquaintance may very well say "At least all these workers were British before we joined the EU and were forced to accept foreign workers!"

 

She'd be wrong.

 

In response to labour shortages following World War II, the Seasonal Agricultural Workers Scheme (SAWS) was introduced in 1945, allowing foreign nationals to temporarily reside in the UK in order to harvest fruit and vegetables. The bulk of SAWS workers were Eastern European or from the former Soviet Union. Although initial quotas were low, farms quickly began to rely on these workers, causing quotas to steadily increase to 21,250 in 2009. In 2013, the scheme was scrapped due to the increasing availability of workers from within the EU.

 

So all that EU membership has meant in this regard is scrapping a 1945 British scheme because the FoM directive made it redundant!

 

As for her other claims about benefit claims etc. anecdotal evidence which is, at best, as ill informed as her knowledge of migrant workers in British farming!

 

It is interesting to note that whilst polls at the time showed that the majority of farmers voted Leave. But as uncertainty over Brexit means that more and more EU migrant farm workers are choosing to offer their services elsewhere in the EU, the NUM seem to be regretting that decision, at least as far as freedom of movement is concerned, and are now calling for the introduction of something almost identical to the pre EU SAWS: Migrant labour shortage leaves fruit rotting on UK farms. If the government doesn't do this, then you acquaintance's husband may have to start getting up a bit earlier in the winter!

 

EU migrants taking seasonal farm jobs away from British workers is yet another Brexiteer myth which, unfortunately, the Leave campaign were not afraid of broadcasting but the Remain campaign failed to bust.

[7by7]

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 6:08 PM, nontabury said:

Correct to a point-

Regarding housing,I watched an article on T.V recently. A 3 bedroomed semi in London was occupied by about 35 Romainians, this being completely illegal, as it was against many laws, including fire regulations. The landlord was also Romanians. Seemingly this is not a isolated occurrence.

Under the new regulations private landlords are, as i said, required to check the immigration status of their new tenants and not doing so is as illegal as the overcrowding you mention.

 

So what is your point: that some Romanians have been discovered breaking the law, therefore all Romanians are criminals? Surely not!

 

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 6:08 PM, nontabury said:

Many Hospitals do not in fact check if patients are entitled to NHS treatment. Law or no Law

I don't know the last time you attended a UK A&E department, but I did 5 weeks ago. My wife was the patient and the first thing we were asked for was the name of our GP, and the person booking us in then checked electronically that we were, in fact, registered with that GP as claimed. It is impossible to register with a GP if you are not legally resident in the UK as they will want to see evidence of your british nationality or immigration status when they register you.

 

If a visitor, you can get treatment from any NHS source, but you have to pay for it. That you've received treatment is entered on the UKVI database and any future visa application or attempt to enter the UK will be denied until the bill is paid.

 

The only exception to this is emergency, life saving treatment in an A&E department; but follow up treatment has to be paid for.

 

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 6:08 PM, nontabury said:

While the Home office have indeed been given powers to restrict sham marriages. Do you honestly think they are 100% successful?

I have made no claim about the success or otherwise of this measure. But, in my opinion, increasing the residential qualifying period for ILR as a spouse or partner from 2 to 5 years was one, maybe the only one,  of the good measures introduced by May in 2012 as this, I believe, makes it harder for non genuine couples.

 

Every now and then, the anti immigrant lobby of the Tory party stirs the pot with talk of reintroducing the Primary Purpose Rule. Hopefully that vile requirement will never see the light of day again!

 

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 6:08 PM, nontabury said:

Driving licencies, your having a laugh surely.Many if not most illegal immigrants don’t bother to even consider obtaining a driving licence. Same for insurance, allthough to be fair, I have read articles that suggest 1,000,000 drivers, British-and foreigners, are driving on U.K roads without car insurance.

On it's own, not much; but it is one of many measures designed to deter and discover illegals. Small on their own, but when all added together can be effective.

 

Of course, if a person, British or otherwise, is asked for their documents by the police for any reason, even if they are the innocent victim of a RTC, and do not have a valid driving licence or valid insurance then they are deep in the excrement!

 

BTW, these days the police can enter a vehicle's registration number into a central data base from their patrol car and immediately discover if it is insured and has a valid MoT.

[7by7]

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 9:23 PM, Chelseafan said:

I did not correct any figure so I think you misunderstood MY post. I stated the amount of possible immigrants in Calais not how may UK Border Force officers employed at Calais.

You stated that figure in direct response to my post about the number of Border Force officers employed in Calais; at least i assume that to be the case as you quoted me!

 

But maybe we misunderstood each other, so let's leave it there.

 

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 9:23 PM, Chelseafan said:

You also misunderstood my comment about the %age of vehicles - I stated that the CHANCES of getting in for a would be immigrant would be 80% based on 1 in 5 vehicles being stopped not that 80% of vehicles have an immigrant onboard 

 

I sort of agree with you but there are a lot of innocent truckers who are being caught up in the net as they didn't realise someone had sneaked onboard  We have had 2 instances in the last year whereby our Depot has offloaded a truck from Europe and found immigrants stashed inside. The driver in each case was totally unaware.

So, based on your experience of just two drivers in a year having illegals onboard, what is your estimate of the percentage of trucks carrying illegals, with or without the knowledge and collusion of the driver?

 

It's definitely not 80%; unless your depot only has 2.5 trucks using it per year!

 

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 9:23 PM, Chelseafan said:

Not sure what question you want me to answer.

If the UK's borders are as porous as claimed by some here, how come there are so many migrants camped in France trying and failing to get into the UK? 

 

The vociferous Brexiteers who make such claims about the ease of illegal immigration into the UK have all chosen to ignore that question.

[nauseus]

12 hours ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Many ?

can you please define your interpretation of ‘many’ and provide some factual evidence in support of your claim ..... please 

It means "quite a lot", to be precise. ?

[7by7]

11 hours ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

 

P.S. and check your grammar please

 Dear grammar police: that should be "PS And check your grammar, please."

 

However, I'll allow you the periods in PS as you may be American.

[7by7]

11 hours ago, nontabury said:

That’s what happens when you put a remainer in charge of the negotiations.

 Who do you mean; David Davis, the Brexit minister?

 

David Davis: Britain would be better off out of the EU – and here’s why

Quote

This is the full text of a speech delivered by David Davis on 4th February 2016.

 

Maybe you mean the PM? Of course Boris could have stood against her, but chose not to.

 

I'm sure the rumours that knowing that there is no way a deal which pleases everyone, not even every Brexiteer, is at all possible prompted him not to stand in the leadership contest. ?

[notmyself]

Posted on this thread long ago and is on my watch list... saw something on news at 10 and looked at the BBC website to check.

 

OMG what condescending laughable asinine BS.

 

Theresa May tells MPs not to undermine UK's Brexit negotiations

 

The UK's negotiating position will be undermined if MPs defeat the government in key votes on its Brexit bill, Theresa May has told Tory MPs.

 

The prime minister told backbenchers to "think about the message Parliament will send to the European Union".

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44434998#

 

The European Union <deleted>. What about the message you sent to the entire electorate when you very quietly signed all EU law into UK law April last year while quickly running a general election on 8th June to cover up news of it. Some people for some reason think that words have some kind of magical property but reality does not so am quite happy to say she is a corporate whore of the highest order.

 

 

[aright]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

It means "quite a lot", to be precise. ?

Bs. "Quite a lot" is "umpteen".

Edited June 11, 2018 by aright

[nauseus]

24 minutes ago, aright said:

Bs. "Quite a lot" is "umpteen".

I thought that was what I said? ?

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, The Renegade said:

So does the UK, and the UK is also a member of the WTO in its own right

 

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/countries_e/united_kingdom_e.htm

Currently the UK trades under the EU WTO profile. Although the UK is a member of the WTO in its own right it does not have a UK WTO profile, that was removed when the EU established a profile that covered all EU member states.

It is up to the UK to establish a new WTO profile and that has yet to be agreed. It was suggested that the UK just copy the existing EU profile but there was objections from NZ and Australia. Whatever the outcome the new profile would have to be ratified by all WTO members, something that is not going to happen overnight.

It is possible for the UK to trade without a profile in place but it would be under WTO default terms and it is that situation that gets referred to as the "worst case scenario".

[The Renegade]

How does it feel remainers, to be permanently walking around under one of these ?

 

 

11 hours ago, Grouse said:

Land Rover to move all Discovery production to Slovakia from 2019. Why 2019 I have no idea. Tragic.

Overdose of hysteria pills and only half a story. 

 

Why have you no idea ? It can be found all over the MSM, which should be fairly easy for a self confessed, highly educated individual to find ??

 

Quote

Jaguar Land Rover says this is merely clearing space at Solihull to produce a new range of hybrid and electric powered Range Rovers - cars of the future. In time more workers will be added as production ramps up.

 

The company described the decision as part of their long-term strategic planning.

 

Company insiders say Brexit was not a factor - and added that most of the new Range Rovers built in Solihull will be exported to non-EU countries anyway.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44438846

 

Must be terrible to be in a permanent state of pessimism.

 

 

[sandyf]

On the flight back to Thailand I watched the movie 'The Darkest Hour',  quite moving and I can understand the concept of British solidarity being inspirational to the brexiteers way of thinking.

Times have changed and military might is no longer a singular key to global dominance. In this day and age, trade and technology have become weapons of war and just as dangerous to future prosperity. The UK is incapable  of challenging countries like USA, Russia and China on their own, TM's idea of a "Global Britain" is nothing more than a delusion.

A large domestic market creates a certain a amount of stability and it is not too late to remain part of a such a market. The UK can leave the EU and still retain a great deal of protection on a global scale.

Of course there are those that cannot see past immigration and are prepared to put future prosperity at risk with such a narrow minded view. The EU is far from perfect but there is a lot to be said for "safety in numbers".

Brexit is like a gift from heaven for the US, perceived as a weakening of the EU , and they have cast the first stone, a good indication of where they are heading.

I do not agree in principle with referendums but it is time to wake up and smell the coffee and put this farce to bed once and for all.

[tebee]

Having worked in my freelance days, in 7 different counties myself, I don't understand  the current demonization of immigrants, especially on here as we must assume that most of the people  here are immigrants themselves!   

 

Historically too, Britain has been a country where large numbers went to work abroad, would Bangladeshis and Indians want to come to the UK  if it were not the "mother country"?

[owl sees all]

34 minutes ago, sandyf said:

I do not agree in principle with referendums but it is time to wake up and smell the coffee and put this farce to bed once and for all.

And who is actually smelling the coffee? What farce are you referring to?

 

Good for UK to get out of the sinking monstrosity of the EU ship; which, by the way, is run by and for the benefit of big business, bankers and bureaucrats. A ship steered by the Germans.

Edited June 12, 2018 by owl sees all

[Orac]

How does it feel remainers, to be permanently walking around under one of these ?

 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44438846

 

Must be terrible to be in a permanent state of pessimism.

 

 

 

 

The decision to move this production to Slovakia is specifically due to uncertainty about Brexit - the plan originally was to build them in Solihull as recently as the following from an interview last September.

 

 

“Top JLR boss Andy Goss told Sky News that its investment in a car plant in Slovakia should now be seen as a "hedge" against uncertainty around the post-Brexit trading environment.

 

"It's become a hedge by default - we will assess everything in the cold light of day - we don't expect to do it, but if we have to we will," he told me.”

 

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-forensics-why-car-industry-is-getting-worried-11041671

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[The Renegade]

11 minutes ago, tebee said:

I don't understand  the current demonization of immigrants, especially on here as we must assume that most of the people  here are immigrants themselves!   

Another day, another gift.

 

There has been no demonisation of immigrants.

 

1. There has been demonisation of '' Illegal Immigrants '' which is a totally different animal.

 

2. Calling for controlled immigration is not demonising immigration.

 

3. There have been claims that the free movement of people is wrong on many different levels.

 

tebee, you are the gift that keeps on giving. Living proof that myth that remainers are highly educated is shoite.

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, Orac said:

The decision to move this production to Slovakia is specifically due to uncertainty about Brexit - the plan originally was to build them in Solihull as recently as the following from an interview last September.

So what is more up  to date ?

 

An article from last September or an article on the BBC yesterday ?

 

 

Plenty to clutch above

 

 

[Orac]

So what is more up  to date ?
 
An article from last September or an article on the BBC yesterday ?
 

 
Plenty to clutch above
 
 

The fact that they have now announced that they are moving the production of the Discovery to Slovakia after warning about doing it a few months ago if there was uncertainty over Brexit. That there is some woolly promise about investment in the future hardly butters many parsnips - from your article:

"But at the moment, JLR has not told us what other models this will open the door to, and what level of investment they are pledging at Solihull."


Seems to be a pattern here of replacing actual trade with vague promises.



Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Kwasaki]

13 hours ago, Grouse said:

Bye bye everybody bye bye!

 

I will come back when there is something interesting to discuss.

 

Puerile banter just doesn't appeal.

 

BTW did you attend a debating society at your university?

Bye you now will have time to tuck into some Tetraonidae.  ?

[Chomper Higgot]

16 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Another day, another gift.

 

There has been no demonisation of immigrants.

 

1. There has been demonisation of '' Illegal Immigrants '' which is a totally different animal.

 

2. Calling for controlled immigration is not demonising immigration.

 

3. There have been claims that the free movement of people is wrong on many different levels.

 

tebee, you are the gift that keeps on giving. Living proof that myth that remainers are highly educated is shoite.

Away with you and your Brexiter revisionism:

 

The demonization of immigrants (all immigrants) was a central point in the Right Wing press supporting Brexit.

[Kwasaki]

12 hours ago, Grouse said:

Land Rover to move all Discovery production to Slovakia from 2019. Why 2019 I have no idea. Tragic.

 

The latest electric Jaguars are to be made in Austria.

 

At least we still have The Mini;

Interesting as the UK sold em maybe because of the EU.

Rover & Jags own by Tata, now that's tragic.

Mini owned by BMW so probably not so tragic.  ?

[tebee]

35 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Another day, another gift.

 

There has been no demonisation of immigrants.

 

1. There has been demonisation of '' Illegal Immigrants '' which is a totally different animal.

 

 

But '' Illegal Immigrants '' have nothing to do with the EU 

[The Renegade]

49 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Away with you and your Brexiter revisionism:

 

The demonization of immigrants (all immigrants) was a central point in the Right Wing press supporting Brexit.

Poor Champer, not being a Brit, he does not understand that the term '' Migrant '' as used by the UK MSM covers:

 

Illegal Migrants, Asylum seekers, Economic Migrants, failed Asylum Seekers, Failed to be deported criminals and any other type of migrants.

 

 

Edited June 12, 2018 by darksidedog
Possible antagonistic comment edited out.

[vogie]

56 minutes ago, tebee said:

Having worked in my freelance days, in 7 different counties myself, I don't understand  the current demonization of immigrants, especially on here as we must assume that most of the people  here are immigrants themselves!   

I have just checked my passport, it says I'm a 'non immigrant'

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

But '' Illegal Immigrants '' have nothing to do with the EU 

Of course it has nothing to do with the EU ??

 

That is why they are tramping all through the EU to reach places like Calais, so that they can Illegally enter the UK.

[tebee]

45 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

And who is actually smelling the coffee? What farce are you referring to?

 

Good for UK to get out of the sinking monstrosity of the EU ship; which, by the way, is run by and for the benefit of big business, bankers and bureaucrats. A ship steered by the Germans.

So if the Eu is run for the benefit big business, bankers and bureaucrats why do most EU countries have much better social support programs than the UK ? And why are you supporting the Hard Brexiters like Rees-Mogg who want to create a low regulation,low tax, small government regime which eliminate more social protection, like the USA on steroids, so that they, Bankers and businessmen, can make more money?

 

Or are you hoping that Brexit will be such a disaster that Corbyn will get in and create his socialist paradise?  

[dick dasterdly]

18 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Away with you and your Brexiter revisionism:

 

The demonization of immigrants (all immigrants) was a central point in the Right Wing press supporting Brexit.

I don't think anyone denies that all (?) newspapers  are happy to exaggerate in favour of their position on brexit - which is why many (?) of us 'read between the lines' and distinguish between opinion articles, and facts.  (Unfortunately, facts are few and far between....)

 

Of course the daily mail is one of the most obvious offenders, and always have been, since long before the brexit referendum.  I mention the DM, as your 'examples' are all DM.

 

People had many different reasons for voting to leave the eu, and sadly, too many are confusing illegal immigrants (that even remainers don't want), with the unwanted, legal, eu immigrants.

[Chomper Higgot]

24 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Poor Champer, not being a Brit, he does not understand that the term '' Migrant '' as used by the UK MSM covers:

 

Illegal Migrants, Asylum seekers, Economic Migrants, failed Asylum Seekers, Failed to be deported criminals and any other type of migrants.

 

I would go into the many reasons of why the UK needs '' Controlled migration '' but I fear you would not be able to understand those reasons. Way above what you are capable of understanding.

Poor Renegade, makes a statement, gets presented with hard evidence that completely contradicts his statement, resorts to ridiculous areguments over the use of language (language he claims some vague superior knowledge of).

 

If you are so sure of your arguments why the need to resort to the ad hominem?

 

Away with you and your nonsense claims that immigrants where not demonized in the run up to the referendum.