Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Unfortunately the xenophobic atmosphere generated with the Brexit Leave campaign has spilled over and is discouraging foreigners with the ‘education/skills/specialisms’ the UK economy and society needs from coming to the UK or remaining.

 

Why bring one’s education and skills to the UK to be faced by xenophobic yobs when the same skills and education are in demand elsewhere?!

Another Dental practice, has very recently opened near me. Romanians, who are very welcome, unlike those thousands of unskilled,and often thieving Romanians who have taken advantage of the E.U’s freedom of movement.

[tebee]

For all those saying the EU should offer us a deal, it has already, but it has stated it needs to be based on an existing deal. 

 

We often seem to forget that it is the UK leaving the EU not the other way round, why should it change its laws just to accommodate us ?

 

There are 4 basic end states( with a few variations on each) 

 

1/ EU / Remain
2/ EEA / EFTA ("Norway", "Switzerland")
3/ FTA / DCFTA ("Canada", "Ukraine")
4/ WTO

 

We need to decide which of these we are aiming for - 2 years down the line and we don't seem to have the foggiest idea.  

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

Yes, but they can't vote in National elections or indeed, the referendum.

 

Non-EEA citizens have no voting rights unless they naturalize, but then they are definitely not an immigrant.   

Yes but if they join a Working Mans Club, they can vote in new committee members, but not allowed to go on the yearly trip to Blackpool.

[Kwasaki]

6 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Italy, only two days ago, ruled out leaving.  Did you miss the Slovenian election last week?  The party who won are pro Europe, there will be no referendum any time soon.  In Hungary, Orban has been in for four terms, what's he waiting for?  Obviously he doesn't want to leave either, so that's none so far.

Yeah well both of them are hangers on and why UK doesn't want to belong to the club and pay more dosh,  along with shelling out for Greece, Spain, Portugal and the other ponce countries in the club and ones who want to join, EU wants UK dosh I say up you EU get lost. 

[CG1 Blue]

28 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Appart from it wasn’t my point.

 

I also thanked Renegade for pointing out my stated DM readership of 17,000,000 Was incorrect and presented the correct number (a little over 13,000,000.

 

The data from the last link I posted suggests 66% of DM readers voted Leave, that equates to 8,580,000 Leave votes. (Over half all leave votes cast).

 

[edit] You too seem not to understand ‘Readership’ is not ‘Number of Papers Sold’, a little thing called ‘the internet’ changed all that.

 

 

So you're saying that 13m UK people regularly read the Daily Mail - that's almost 30% of the entire voting population of the UK regularly read that newspaper either in print or online?

I think you misunderstand (monthly) newspaper readership numbers.

 

[The Renegade]

2 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I think you misunderstand (monthly) newspaper readership numbers.

Correct.

 

I did try explaining it, but I would have had more joy talking to a water melon.

[Kieran00001]

26 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Where did you come up with that little gem ?

 

Did you ?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/03/anti-immigration-party-leads-exit-poll-in-slovenian-election

 

???

 

Did you and Champer attend the same school ?

 

I read it in the papers two days ago, their finance minister said they ruled out leaving.

As for Slovenia, all the other parties had a pact before the election not to form a coalition with SDS who got the most seats but they didn't win an outright majority, the pro Europe coalition did, we will see who manages to form a government in the coming days.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, The Renegade said:

Your mistake is that you are using a monthly figure.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/380710/daily-mail-the-mail-on-sunday-monthly-reach-by-demographic-uk/

 

UK press is normally described by daily circulation, not on a monthly basis.

 

eg

 

Daily Mail

Circulation: 1,383,932 (November 2017)

The Sun

Circulation: 1,481,876 (March 2018)

 

The Guardian

Circulation: 148,169 (March 2018)

The Times

Circulation: 435,061 (November 2017)

 

Can't we just agree that The Mail is crap? That it has such a high readership confirms the lamentable level of too many English people.

[The Renegade]

6 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

I read it in the papers two days ago, their finance minister said they ruled out leaving.

This one you mean ?

 

Headline

 

Quote

Italy’s new economy minister rules out leaving euro

What was actually said

 

Quote

No discussion’ in government about quitting single currency, Giovanni Tria says.

https://www.politico.eu/article/giovanni-tria-euro-italys-economy-minister-rules-out-leaving/

 

That discussion will not happen until the European Commission inspects and then rejects Italy's next budget.

 

Which they will do as it will represent somewhere between €100 - 150 Billion in extra borrowing and there is not a snowflakes chance in hell of the EC passing it.

 

Assuming of course, that you do know that EZ Countries are so sovereign that the EC has to inspect and approve their budgets.

[The Renegade]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Can't we just agree that The Mail is crap?

I could neither agree or disagree, I do not read it ??

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, The Renegade said:

It appears that Ireland is breaking ranks with the EU

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-11/ireland-tells-eu-it-won-t-accept-a-brexit-border-pm-says

 

That has just goosed Barnier's negotiating strategy.

Que?

[adammike]

37 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Correct.

 

I did try explaining it, but I would have had more joy talking to a water melon.

Then you can eat it and spit out the pips.

[tebee]

13 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Can't we just agree that The Mail is crap? That it has such a high readership confirms the lamentable level of too many English people.

Oddly enough I used to read the Mail for many years, I quite liked it's mid-brow approach then and wanted to get my news from a source I disagreed with politically, to avoid confirmation bias. Oh and I liked the Flook cartoon( showing my age there now!) 

 

It did eventually get to the point where I couldn't   take it anymore and the paper seemed to be dumbing down anyway, but it greatly helped my critical thinking skills. 

[aright]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

Italy has said it is not leaving, I can't think why Slovenia or Hungary would leave, they profit from it.

The not leaving presents the EU with special problems.

Poland's refusal to adopt EU standards as regards its judiciary, Hungary's outright rejection of the EU's stand on migration policy and Italy's proposed subversion of the euro are major existential threats precisely because these countries are not asking to leave.

 

T

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

The not leaving presents the EU with special problems.

Poland's refusal to adopt EU standards as regards its judiciary, Hungary's outright rejection of the EU's stand on migration policy and Italy's proposed subversion of the euro are major existential threats precisely because these countries are not asking to leave.

 

T

Correct

 

Quote

Dutch conservative Peter Van Dalen says eurozone countries "haven't really complied" with the terms of the stability and growth pact.

 

The pact sets legal limits on national budget deficits and debts levels.

 

The new Italian government, which proposes "spending much more than what it is generating", is a new "dark cloud" for the single currency bloc, he adds.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-44440829

 

I believe the Italians have learned well from the Brexit saga and have played a blinder.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Appart from it wasn’t my point.

 

I also thanked Renegade for pointing out my stated DM readership of 17,000,000 Was incorrect and presented the correct number (a little over 13,000,000.

 

The data from the last link I posted suggests 66% of DM readers voted Leave, that equates to 8,580,000 Leave votes. (Over half all leave votes cast).

 

[edit] You too seem not to understand ‘Readership’ is not ‘Number of Papers Sold’, a little thing called ‘the internet’ changed all that.

 

 

Sorry CH, not quite right

 

66% of DM readers voted leave I agree. But 66% of leave voters were not DM readers.

 

I agree the general thrust of your point though and the crap red tops were partly responsible for this disasterous  situation

Edited June 12, 2018 by Grouse

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Italy, only two days ago, ruled out leaving.  Did you miss the Slovenian election last week?  The party who won are pro Europe, there will be no referendum any time soon.  In Hungary, Orban has been in for four terms, what's he waiting for?  Obviously he doesn't want to leave either, so that's none so far.

If East European countries such as Poland are booted out ( for being ungrateful) would that fix the EU immigrants to U.K. Problem?

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

So you're saying that 13m UK people regularly read the Daily Mail - that's almost 30% of the entire voting population of the UK regularly read that newspaper either in print or online?

I think you misunderstand (monthly) newspaper readership numbers.

 

No I did not simply  state 13,000,000 people regularly read the Daily Mail.

I gave reference to a report from ‘statistica’ that indicates 13,000,000 people regularly read the Daily Mail.

 

‘Statistica’ you will note was first used as a reference in this discussion by Renegade, unfortunately he, like you, doesn’t understand that in the age of the internet ‘News Paper Distribution’ is not the same thing as ‘Readership’.

 

The former grossly under represents the latter.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

26 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Sorry CH, not quite right

 

66% of DM readers voted leave I agree. But 66% of leave voters were not DM readers.

 

I agree the general thrust of your point though and the crap red tops were partly responsible for this disasterous  situation

I didn’t calculate 66% of Leave Voters are DM readers.

 

13,000,000 DM readers. (statistica - link already provided)

66% DM readers voted leave (Pressgazette - link already provided)

66% of 13,000,000 = 8,580,000.

[CG1 Blue]

19 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

No I did not simply  state 13,000,000 people regularly read the Daily Mail.

I gave reference to a report from ‘statistica’ that indicates 13,000,000 people regularly read the Daily Mail.

 

‘Statistica’ you will note was first used as a reference in this discussion by Renegade, unfortunately he, like you, doesn’t understand that in the age of the internet ‘News Paper Distribution’ is not the same thing as ‘Readership’.

 

The former grossly under represents the latter.

 

And you I'm afraid are misrepresenting data to fit an agenda.

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

No I’m not ashamed of my own country, rather I regard my nationality not something I wish to share on a public forum.

 

I trust this answers your question.

No, I don’t see why you can’t  reveil this small piece of information, it ‘s not as if I’m asking you to divulge your name,address and bank a/c details.

Other foreigners have previously entered this thread, such as the old hippy from Belgium and another one,whose name I forget,who was from Finland. Both supporters of the U.K. remaining in, and continuing to financially support the hated E.U.  So please tell us where your from,this May help us to understand your point of veiw

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, CG1 Blue said:

And you I'm afraid are misrepresenting data to fit an agenda.

Then challenge my interpretation with your own, but please don’t come this ‘Distrution’ = ‘Readership’ nonsense.

[Kieran00001]

36 minutes ago, Grouse said:

If East European countries such as Poland are booted out ( for being ungrateful) would that fix the EU immigrants to U.K. Problem?

 

They could certainly help ease the shortage of immigrants post Brexit.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, nontabury said:

No, I don’t see why you can’t  reveil this small piece of information, it ‘s not as if I’m asking you to divulge your name,address and bank a/c details.

Other foreigners have previously entered this thread, such as the old hippy from Belgium and another one,whose name I forget,who was from Finland. Both supporters of the U.K. remaining in, and continuing to financially support the hated E.U.  So please tell us where your from,this May help us to understand your point of veiw

Get over yourself, this is not a dating site.

 

You don’t get to quiz other members on their personal information.

 

Find some ‘healthier’ pass time to expend your energies.

[CG1 Blue]

13 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Then challenge my interpretation with your own, but please don’t come this ‘Distrution’ = ‘Readership’ nonsense.

Ok, look at these percentages that voted Leave:

 

70% of Sun readers

70% of Daily Express readers

66% of Daily Mail readers

22% of FT Readers

10% of Guardian readers

 

This is a just sample set of newspapers.  There would also have been lots of people who don't read any newspapers voting Leave.  17.4m people voted to Leave the EU. According to your logic that number should be a lot higher.

 

 

 

[aright]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Can't we just agree that The Mail is crap? That it has such a high readership confirms the lamentable level of too many English people.

The Guardian has been described as the Daily Mail of the left. In terms of overt bias, pushing an agenda, always pandering to one side of the debate etc.I think that's just about right.

[nontabury]

17 hours ago, 7by7 said:

No one who knows any UK history knows that UK farmers employing seasonal migrant workers predates the EU by centuries!

 

It probably existed before, but began in earnest in the late 17th and early 18th centuries with the increased productivity brought about by, among other things, the growing of crops such as turnips instead of leaving fields lying fallow in the winter. In those days the migrant workers came from other parts of the UK, and many were women and children. As now, they worked for as long as they were wanted before moving on to find work elsewhere.

 

The increase in better paid, more secure factory jobs in the 19th century and the social reforms in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, such as the Gangs Act in 1867 banning the employment of children under the age of 8, meant that the availability of home grown seasonal farm workers became more restricted, even though demand for them was increasing as farming became more efficient. 

 

But your farm worker's wife acquaintance may very well say "At least all these workers were British before we joined the EU and were forced to accept foreign workers!"

 

She'd be wrong.

 

In response to labour shortages following World War II, the Seasonal Agricultural Workers Scheme (SAWS) was introduced in 1945, allowing foreign nationals to temporarily reside in the UK in order to harvest fruit and vegetables. The bulk of SAWS workers were Eastern European or from the former Soviet Union. Although initial quotas were low, farms quickly began to rely on these workers, causing quotas to steadily increase to 21,250 in 2009. In 2013, the scheme was scrapped due to the increasing availability of workers from within the EU.

 

So all that EU membership has meant in this regard is scrapping a 1945 British scheme because the FoM directive made it redundant!

 

As for her other claims about benefit claims etc. anecdotal evidence which is, at best, as ill informed as her knowledge of migrant workers in British farming!

 

It is interesting to note that whilst polls at the time showed that the majority of farmers voted Leave. But as uncertainty over Brexit means that more and more EU migrant farm workers are choosing to offer their services elsewhere in the EU, the NUM seem to be regretting that decision, at least as far as freedom of movement is concerned, and are now calling for the introduction of something almost identical to the pre EU SAWS: Migrant labour shortage leaves fruit rotting on UK farms. If the government doesn't do this, then you acquaintance's husband may have to start getting up a bit earlier in the winter!

 

EU migrants taking seasonal farm jobs away from British workers is yet another Brexiteer myth which, unfortunately, the Leave campaign were not afraid of broadcasting but the Remain campaign failed to bust.

I’m very disappointed in this reply from you, I mentioned a conversation I had with a lady whose husband is a farm worker, working under E.U rules in 2018, yet all you can come up with is a load of Waffle, regarding historical events.

The low paid British workers are having to deal with the reality of life TODAY.They don’t know if life will be better for them, out side the E.U. just as you don’t know if their life will be worse. But they do know that their standard of life will not be undercut by foreign workers, to the advantage of those at the top of the pile.

They can also see the advantage of our Laws being set by our elected representatives in Westminster and not by a group of unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. 

  Regarding your assertion that the U.K leaving the E.U. will result in fruit being left to rot on our farms. This again is part of the remainers scare stories. There will be no reason for an independent U.K government to not issue temporary visa’s for seasonal workers from anywhere in the world to enter the U.K. Exactly the same as Finland( an E.U country) grants temporary visas to many Thais, in order that they can harvest Fruit berries in that country.

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

31 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Get over yourself, this is not a dating site.

 

You don’t get to quiz other members on their personal information.

 

Find some ‘healthier’ pass time to expend your energies.

To be fair, you're only being asked to declare any vested interests.

 

I'm guessing Belgian. 

[adammike]

11 minutes ago, aright said:

The Guardian has been described as the Daily Mail of the left. In terms of overt bias, pushing an agenda, always pandering to one side of the debate etc.I think that's just about right.

You were doing fine then you post nonsense like that.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

42 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Get over yourself, this is not a dating site.

 

You don’t get to quiz other members on their personal information.

 

Find some ‘healthier’ pass time to expend your energies.

What on earth are you being so precious about, you were only asked a civil and not unreasonable question as to what country you are from. You weren't asked to reveal any personal information whatsoever. I think you have issues if you feel that telling anyone what country you come from is sacrosanct