Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[nauseus]

33 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

The decision to join what was then the EEC was taken by Parliament and voted into law under Heath's Conservative government in 1973.

 

Wilson's Labour government put a renegotiated agreement to a referendum in 1975. The result of that referendum was voted into law by Parliament.

 

In 1986 the Single European Act was agreed by the democratically elected governments of the member states; including the UK.

 

In 1992 Thatcher signed the Maastricht Treaty, which created the EU. Her decision to do so was, of course, agreed by Parliament and voted into law.

 

I could go on: the list of democratically taken decisions regarding the UK's continued membership of the  EEC, EC and now EU by the UK Parliament is long.  

 

All the above democratic decisions were overturned by the result of the 2016 referendum.

 

Using what passes for your logic, they should not have been and Brexit should not be happening!

 

Using what passes for your logic, no law passed by a previous Parliament should ever be repealed! 

What a creative mind! Her decision my toot.

 

If Thatcher had been in power in 1992 she would have signed us OUT! She saw the light and got kicked out herself soon after by the Tory Europhile lackeys. Major signed even more of the UK away in Masstricht and Brown poison-penned again in Lisbon. Both treaties were serious enough each, constitutionally, to warrant national referenda and consent. The very result of the 2016 referendum shows how badly one was needed. 

 

 

[soalbundy]

6 minutes ago, nontabury said:

From reading all of your post, I’m surprised that as a person who has not lived in the U.K for decades,and has no intention of returning, and continually criticises, but never talks up the U.K. that you should be so interested in this subject.

It's fun and I don't want a blue passport.

[nauseus]

11 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

I am not going back several pages to prove that i have not misquoted you. Those who have read them know the truth.

Good then, because if they have then they know that you have misquoted me.

[tebee]

16 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Here you go

 

http://www.cityam.com/275454/michel-barnier-there-no-middle-way-single-market-customs

 

In or out, that is the UK's options.

 

In means under the control of Brussels, the ECJ and handing over £ Billions every year.

Indeed you can't be half in and half out of either, but you could be fully in both and still not a member of the EU. 

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

What a creative mind! Her decision my toot.

 

If Thatcher had been in power in 1992 she would have signed us OUT! She saw the light and got kicked out herself soon after by the Tory Europhile lackeys. Major signed even more of the UK away in Masstricht and Brown poison-penned again in Lisbon. Both treaties were serious enough each, constitutionally, to warrant national referenda and consent. The very result of the 2016 referendum shows how badly one was needed. 

 

 

Those behind the scenes who really hold power probably told them what to do, rather like now, they let the reins slip for a minuet and now the chaos has to be stopped one way or another. 

[tebee]

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

What a creative mind! Her decision my toot.

 

If Thatcher had been in power in 1992 she would have signed us OUT! She saw the light and got kicked out herself soon after by the Tory Europhile lackeys. Major signed even more of the UK away in Masstricht and Brown poison-penned again in Lisbon. Both treaties were serious enough each, constitutionally, to warrant national referenda and consent. The very result of the 2016 referendum shows how badly one was needed. 

 

 

Thatcher was one of the people who started the single market idea rolling!

 

[aright]

8 minutes ago, tebee said:

He should vote with his conscience -or abstain 

I agree because Abortion and Hanging are Conscience votes. Any non conscience votes should be cast on the basis of the majority of the will of his constituency. If he doesn't serve the needs of his constituency what value is he ?

As for they know more, are more intelligent, and better able to make decisions on the basis of his accumulated knowledge. Where is the evidence for that in todays world?   

[tebee]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

Thatcher was one of the people who started the single market idea rolling!

 

The single market was designed, with considerable influence and impetus from London, to prise open European markets to British exporters, to level the playing field for UK firms across the Continent.

“A single market without barriers – visible or invisible – giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people,” was how Thatcher herself described the single market at Lancaster House in 1988 to an audience of business leaders.

[nauseus]

22 minutes ago, tebee said:

Indeed, but the four fundamental freedoms that make up the single market are inseparable - you have to decide if you can afford to lose the 25% of your trade that depends on them or accept them. 

Only inseparable according to the wonderful EU. There is no real necessity for these damn pillars! 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

12 minutes ago, aright said:

I know you are a rugby man. Wasps fan? Tomorrow night is the World under 20 Cup from Beziers ITV4 ko 6pm UK time. I have been following this tournament and have seen some of the best rugby in a while. The French team is outstanding and they play England in the final tomorrow. Well worth a view or at least a record if viewing something else. I am watching France v Australia at the moment unfortunately it is not Shiraz o'clock in the UK yet.

Harlequin's ..... I live within walking distance of the Twickenham Stoop, when I'm in the UK.

 

Unfortunately, the U-20 start time is midnight here, past my bedtime, and I use a streaming service that I can't record; but thanks for the flag, I'll look to see if I can find any of it on Youtube 

[nauseus]

8 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Those behind the scenes who really hold power probably told them what to do, rather like now, they let the reins slip for a minuet and now the chaos has to be stopped one way or another. 

Hmmm.......... better leave then.

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, aright said:

I agree because Abortion and Hanging are Conscience votes. Any non conscience votes should be cast on the basis of the majority of the will of his constituency. If he doesn't serve the needs of his constituency what value is he ?

As for they know more, are more intelligent, and better able to make decisions on the basis of his accumulated knowledge. Where is the evidence for that in todays world?   

None at all but they do have a vast array of experts at hand including an experienced civil service, they can of course ignore them as Trump, the leader of our special relationship, frequently does.

[tebee]

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Only inseparable according to the wonderful EU. There is no real necessity for these damn pillars! 

But the EU is the most largest and influential trading block in the world these days. What they have has worked fine for them up until now. Why should they change it for us, we are the ones that want to leave.

 

[nauseus]

8 minutes ago, tebee said:

The single market was designed, with considerable influence and impetus from London, to prise open European markets to British exporters, to level the playing field for UK firms across the Continent.

“A single market without barriers – visible or invisible – giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people,” was how Thatcher herself described the single market at Lancaster House in 1988 to an audience of business leaders.

That's what we need. But without all the other crap.

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, The Renegade said:

You best have that argument with Grouse, he is adamant that they do not.

 

Come on tebee, astound us all with your knowledge. How many Constituencies voted to leave and how many voted to remain ?

 

A 4 - 1 vote in favour of triggering Article 50 would be about correct in terms of Constituencies.

 

I will make it simple for you, either a load of MP's are lying bastards, or they are selling their constituents down the river.

 

Tebee is correct

 

MPs are obliged to vote in accordance with what their conscience tells them is in the best interests of their constituents and the country as a whole.

 

The hanging debate is the classic exemplar of that. It is generally believed that a majority of the voting population wish to see capital punishment restored. MPs apparently disagree; it will never happen.

 

Excellent discussion on the latest Question Time. Labour and Conservative MPs agreed! Isabel Oakeshott accused of being a tabloid journalist! Man said the audience were not thick; they were Welsh! There's no answer to that!?

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

But the EU is the most largest and influential trading block in the world these days. What they have has worked fine for them up until now. Why should they change it for us, we are the ones that want to leave.

 

I didn't say they would change it for us.

 

But I think they should change it for them!

[7by7]

26 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Such a grown up answer !! You really know how to make friends and influence people.

 

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/factcheck+did+blair+promise+euro+referendum/558277.html

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/apr/20/eu.politics6

 

The EEC morphed into today's EU by stealth, with no regard for the electorate.

 

I have to admit to an earlier error when I said it was Thatcher who signed the Maastricht Treaty in 1992. I should have checked, she didn't. Although she was involved in much (most?) of the negotiations, by the time it was ratified in 1992 she had been ousted by her party and John Major was PM.

 

Blair's promises of a referendum on the EU, which he later reneged upon, occurred in 2004 and again in 2005; over 10 years since the EU was formed via the Maastricht Treaty!

 

36 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

44 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

If the government held a referendum on every law we would never be out of the polling stations!

I do not recall ever seeing anyone calling for every law to be passed by a Referendum. So I have no idea what that comment was for. Rather stupid comment, don't you think ?

My comment was in response to you saying after I posted a list of laws passed by Parliament 

58 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

How many of the above were agreed by the actual electorate in a National Referendum / Vote ?

You seem to have forgotten saying that!

 

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

Bracknell MP, Phillip Lee. Held the seat in 2015. Probably won't win there again! He must be a smart man but another one who seems to consider his own opinions and views above those of the constituents that voted him in. Not the best example of representative democracy! 

That's an excellent example of representative democracy in action. Change the system if you don't like it!

[transam]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

But the EU is the most largest and influential trading block in the world these days. What they have has worked fine for them up until now. Why should they change it for us, we are the ones that want to leave.

 

Perhaps the cost to the UK tax payer that keeps EU members with nothing very happy  has now come to the fore..?

[tebee]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

That's an excellent example of representative democracy in action. Change the system if you don't like it!

Or simply vote them out at the next election - that is how democracy works in this country. 

[BritManToo]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

Or simply vote them out at the next election - that is how democracy works in this country. 

Next time they'll want to stay because not enough people voted them out.

That's how democracy works in the UK.

 

Democracy in this country is One man, One vote and General Prayut is the One man.

Edited June 16, 2018 by BritManToo

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

Am I now to understand,that you have given up your support for the Scottish Nationalist.

That view point does not agree with what I see and hear. Westminster is still greatly despised. SNP were praised for walking out.

[tebee]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

Perhaps the cost to the UK tax payer that keeps EU members with nothing very happy  has now come to the fore..?

Our contribution is a piffling sum in terms of the overall UK government spend. It will probably cost more just to replicate all the EU agencies in the UK.   

[BritManToo]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

It will probably cost more just to replicate all the EU agencies in the UK.   

Do they do anything worth replicating?

[aright]

Just now, Grouse said:

 

The hanging debate is the classic exemplar of that. It is generally believed that a majority of the voting population wish to see capital punishment restored. MPs apparently disagree; it will never happen.

 

I have already said the hanging issue is an issue of conscience, what you haven't explained is why the no hanging view of the MP's is more astute and discerning than those of the pro hanging view. 

Would your view have something to do with your intellectual take on the subject?

[soalbundy]

11 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Hmmm.......... better leave then.

Ever wondered why the chief of police in England is always a Freemason. 

[tebee]

9 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I didn't say they would change it for us.

 

But I think they should change it for them!

But the other freedoms don't really work without FOM - you can't provide services in another country if you can't send your staff there for instance.

[tebee]

2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Do they do anything worth replicating?

useful things like checking your car isn't going to kill you ?

 

You need to have standards - and agencies to enforce those standards - if you want to export anywhere.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, The Renegade said:

Which is exactly why the Swiss are digging their heels in.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-swiss-eu-talks/labor-market-rules-remain-a-red-line-in-eu-talks-swiss-foreign-minister-idUSKBN1JB2KY

So if the Swiss think they can negotiate restrictions on free movement why can't we? I can see that the Swiss would not want to admit many low skill, semi-literate British workers though ?

[nauseus]

6 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Ever wondered why the chief of police in England is always a Freemason. 

I have wondered how some people find stuff like that out.