Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, StreetCowboy said:

Transam's dad fought in the last war; I don't want my children to fight in the next one.

So do you think it is the EU that is keeping the peace or NATO ?

[billd766]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Don’t be mistaken that the rants of Brexit zealots here on TVF have any bearing on the outcome of Brexit.

 

Nobody voted for job losses or to be poorer, something that will become more of an issue nas the final deal comes into sight.

 

(I quoted your whole comment because I didn’t have to cut out bits I didn’t agree wit ?

 

Also don't be mistaken that the rants of the Remainer zealots here on TVF have any bearing on the outcome of Brexit either.

 

The ONLY way that any of us on TVF has the slightest chance of affecting Brexit is IF there is another referendum, and ONLY then if they are a registered UK voter.

 

 

[Kieran00001]

10 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The choice was on the voting slip.

 

The campaign promise stated what leaving meant, if they cannot keep those promises then the referendum choices were not clear, if it were a legal contract it would be voided, the same should be true for referendums otherwise they can persuade the public into signing almost anything under false premises.

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

The ONLY way that any of us on TVF has the slightest chance of affecting Brexit is IF there is another referendum, and ONLY then if they are a registered UK voter.

Not forgetting that non - Brits do not have a vote either ?

[Grouse]

16 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

So do you think it is the EU that is keeping the peace or NATO ?

EU certainly. Amazing you don't understand that. 

 

NATO has only ever been called on under the mutual defence provisions and that was by the USA

 

Much has been written on this point and I will not regurgitate it to satisfy your appetite 

 

This is a good article

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2016/05/how-valid-claim-eu-has-delivered-peace-europe

 

No doubt to be shot down with some facile comments

Edited June 17, 2018 by Grouse

[StreetCowboy]

1 minute ago, The Renegade said:

So do you think it is the EU that is keeping the peace or NATO ?

I think that the EU reduces the risk of war in Europe.  NATO did not prevent war in the former Yugoslav republics.

 

Tell me how the EU increases the risk of war in Europe, and I will consider that.  

Outside the EU, how big is our voice in NATO?   How long can we rely on our Orange Brother across the pond, against his paymaster to the East?  How much say over EU policy? The Orange Buffoon's policy? do we have in EU or outside? 

 

But once we have back our Commonwealth - excluding one or two that have to kowtow to China for their resource exports and infrastructure investments - but together, we will be Great Again!

 

I have blissful senility to look forward to; my children may not be so lucky.

[Chomper Higgot]

A disturbing number of the ‘lead players’ in the Brexit Leave side have close contacts (often multiple contacts) with extreme right wingers in the US, an anarchist in the Ecuadorian Embassy, Rusian agents and Russian oligarchs (who in turn are linked to Putin).

 

But, we must believe, they are patriots struggling for the British  ‘common man’, for the good of Britain and against a tyrrany which we must believe is not ‘white supremicist’ in the US or the kleptocrats of Russia but the EU.

 

Go figure.

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

The campaign promise stated what leaving meant, if they cannot keep those promises then the referendum choices were not clear, if it were a legal contract it would be voided, the same should be true for referendums otherwise they can persuade the public into signing almost anything under false premises.

 

Campaign promises ?

 

Where is the emergency budget ?

 

Where is financial armageddon ?

 

Where is the housing market collapse ?

 

The Referendum offered a choice for Joe Public - Vote Leave or Vote Remain.

 

Parliament than had a vote to trigger Article 50.

 

Article 50 triggered.

 

Keep howling ??

[StreetCowboy]

4 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Also don't be mistaken that the rants of the Remainer zealots here on TVF have any bearing on the outcome of Brexit either.

 

The ONLY way that any of us on TVF has the slightest chance of affecting Brexit is IF there is another referendum, and ONLY then if they are a registered UK voter.

 

 

People may read this thread, and distinguish pragmatism from hubris.  You may not remember the educational magazines of the Seventies - "Look and Learn".  Or the more motor-oriented "Speed and Power" or the commercial radio populism of "Listen and Win" or the more nationalistic "Strength through Joy"

[billd766]

41 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

When the next war in Europe breaks out, after the EU collapses, and your grandchildren say "Why did you let that happen?" what will you say? "It all seemed so peaceful in 2018"

 

That might prove tricky as many of the states in the EU are also members of NATO, as indeed are the USA and Canada.

 

Members of NATO are pledged to assist member countries who are attacked.

 

So who would support which side?

[7by7]

3 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

9 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Whereas a member has the right to try and change the rules; and will succeed if enough other members support those changes.

The 4 EU pillars are non negotiable

 

The EU Treaties are unchangeable.

 

 Barnier & Juncker.

 

What changes do you envision are likely to happen ?

 

Although there may be unforeseen changes on the way that the EU can do nothing about.

 

Perhaps that is why Barnier has been rather quiet over the last couple of weeks.

My comment was to show the difference between having access to an organisation and being a member of it.

 

Yes, the four pillars of the EU, the free movement of goods, services, capital and labour, are nonnegotiable; for EU members. No one has ever said otherwise. 

 

EU treaties are changeable; they can be amended, modified or replaced; from the horses mouth: EU treaties

Quote

Treaties are amended to make the EU more efficient and transparent, to prepare for new member countries and to introduce new areas of cooperation – such as the single currency...…..

……...When new countries joined the EU, the founding treaties were amended...............

 

David Cameron claimed prior to the referendum that he has effected a treaty change for the UK which allowed the UK to opt out of EU changes it didn't like. You may not agree with him, but I suggest you first read this pre referendum piece EU reform deal: What Cameron wanted and what he got

 

I don't know what future changes may occur; but I do know that after 11pm UK time on Friday 29 March 2019 the UK will no longer be bound by any EU treaties and have no say in any future ones; except, of course, those agreed between the UK and EU on the relationship between us both post Brexit.

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Also don't be mistaken that the rants of the Remainer zealots here on TVF have any bearing on the outcome of Brexit either.

 

The ONLY way that any of us on TVF has the slightest chance of affecting Brexit is IF there is another referendum, and ONLY then if they are a registered UK voter.

 

 

And bother to vote.

 

They might also put their money where their mouth is, for example funding legal challenges to the government.

 

But I’m glad you recognise that expressing concerns regarding Brexit is not some how ‘letting the side down’.

[StreetCowboy]

Just now, The Renegade said:

...

Where is the housing market collapse ?

...

Do you want to buy a great investment property in the East End of Glasgow?

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

 

Campaign promises ?

 

Where is the emergency budget ?

 

Where is financial armageddon ?

 

Where is the housing market collapse ?

 

The Referendum offered a choice for Joe Public - Vote Leave or Vote Remain.

 

Parliament than had a vote to trigger Article 50.

 

Article 50 triggered.

 

Keep howling ??

Oh you’re back to cherry picking the excessive arguments of some Remain supporters.

 

And so soon after complaining of repetitive points being made.

[7by7]

16 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Do not even go there.

 

If you want to try me go ahead. I do not respond to a lot of garbage that is spouted on this thread and others I will respond to. I choose what I respond to, not you.

 

If you believe my perception is wrong, produce something to prove it is wrong.

 

You saying it does not make it true.

 

So back it up.

 You challenged a post by another member and called him a liar; he asked you for evidence of that.

 

First you tried to ignore his question, then you tried to deflect from it. The posts are there for all to see.

 

Back up your statements; if you can! My previous post goes a long way to backing up mine about you and your perceptions!

 

 

[billd766]

8 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Not forgetting that non - Brits do not have a vote either ?

 

I hadn't forgotten but I did say "and ONLY then if they are a registered UK voter".

 

I think but I am not sure that after a period of time many non-Brits are elegible to vote in elections as well.

[StreetCowboy]

5 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

That might prove tricky as many of the states in the EU are also members of NATO, as indeed are the USA and Canada.

 

Members of NATO are pledged to assist member countries who are attacked.

 

So who would support which side?

I'm guessing, the Americans will say, " Sort it out yourselves, boys.  When the Russians get involved, we'll make you the new Vietnam, but until then, at least you have the benefit of our tolerant abstinence."

[The Renegade]

6 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

I think that the EU reduces the risk of war in Europe.  NATO did not prevent war in the former Yugoslav republics.

NATO was called into the former Yugoslavia in 1995 after the EU and UN failed dismally to end the conflict.

 

As for NATO not preventing the war, you should look into what NATO's remit is. 

[Grouse]

9 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

I'm guessing, the Americans will say, " Sort it out yourselves, boys.  When the Russians get involved, we'll make you the new Vietnam, but until then, at least you have the benefit of our tolerant abstinence."

NEVER trust the Americans. Read up on the McMahon act.

 

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by Grouse

[Kieran00001]

12 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

 

Campaign promises ?

 

Where is the emergency budget ?

 

Where is financial armageddon ?

 

Where is the housing market collapse ?

 

The Referendum offered a choice for Joe Public - Vote Leave or Vote Remain.

 

Parliament than had a vote to trigger Article 50.

 

Article 50 triggered.

 

Keep howling ??

 

Those were not campaign promises of the Remain campaign.  I am asking you a simple question, what in the Remain campaign do you feel was a lie and what did you mean when you said I have recognised that they lied.  Out with it man.

[aright]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

SoAmerica isn't the only market in the world and Germany's car factories are highly automated, if you walk into an engine making plant you have to look for workers. Yes it could be difficult but anyone who can afford a high end BMW or Mercedes won't be put off by a higher price and the 'normal' model buyers are buying a product already made in the USA anyway. It hasn't come to this yet, Trump, not the EU, has invited for talks over tariff's with Europe, 

http://money.cnn.com/2018/03/05/investing/trump-tariffs-european-cars/index.html

This won't be as easy as he thinks anyway.

You seem very relaxed about the current situation.

So Mr Gersbach is wrong 850000 jobs aren't at risk .

Prof. Gabriel Felbermayer from the IFO Institute in Munich is also wrong is he when he says "Trump tariffs and a no deal Brexit would cost the German car industry around  10bn euros.but the negative synergy of the two together would be worse than the sum of the parts. There is less leeway for trade diversion. Industry would be badly hurt, and nobody wants this kind of escalation,” 

You haven't mentioned Audi or VW. In the event of tariffs Audi is the worst hit since it doesn't manufacture cars in the USA and VW has 4 plants in Mexico which will attract tariffs when exporting to the USA.

Currently the USA gainfully employs 36000 workers making German cars. If they double output I am sure the Americans will enjoy the extra 36000 jobs. You don't seem concerned about job losses in Germany.

 

Peter Navarro, the ultra-hawkish White House trade adviser, argues that Germany has locked in a semi-permanent trade advantage through the deformed  structure of the euro, allowing it to amass and hold a current account surplus of over 8pc of GDP.The implicit Deutsche Mark is “grossly undervalued”, he argues. The intra-EMU exchange rate is misaligned. To the extent that there is a self-correcting mechanism, it is through "austerity" policies in the South.This means that the eurozone has become a contractionary black hole, hollowing out world demand. It distorts the global economy. Germany has not shown any willingness to correct this. Berlin deems the eurozone surplus to be a virtue.

 

If you add to this US concerns regarding defence spending, Mr Trump says " Why should the Americans fork out billions to ensure Germany can run up a huge trading surplus under a protective umbrella they are not prepared to pay for?" . Barack Obama made the same point, calling the EU nations “complacent”, and urging them to increase spending at least to the two per cent of GDP required by Nato, but no one took him seriously.

 

They cannot ignore Mr Trump

 

 

[The Renegade]

11 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

I hadn't forgotten but I did say "and ONLY then if they are a registered UK voter".

 

I think but I am not sure that after a period of time many non-Brits are elegible to vote in elections as well.

Only local elections, not National elections.

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

NATO was called into the former Yugoslavia in 1995 after the EU and UN failed dismally to end the conflict.

 

As for NATO not preventing the war, you should look into what NATO's remit is. 

What does the EU ‘remit’ say about preventing war in a non member state?

[Grouse]

12 minutes ago, aright said:

You seem very relaxed about the current situation.

So Mr Gersbach is wrong 850000 jobs aren't at risk .

Prof. Gabriel Felbermayer from the IFO Institute in Munich is also wrong is he when he says "Trump tariffs and a no deal Brexit would cost the German car industry around  10bn euros.but the negative synergy of the two together would be worse than the sum of the parts. There is less leeway for trade diversion. Industry would be badly hurt, and nobody wants this kind of escalation,” 

You haven't mentioned Audi or VW. In the event of tariffs Audi is the worst hit since it doesn't manufacture cars in the USA and VW has 4 plants in Mexico which will attract tariffs when exporting to the USA.

Currently the USA gainfully employs 36000 workers making German cars. If they double output I am sure the Americans will enjoy the extra 36000 jobs. You don't seem concerned about job losses in Germany.

 

Peter Navarro, the ultra-hawkish White House trade adviser, argues that Germany has locked in a semi-permanent trade advantage through the deformed  structure of the euro, allowing it to amass and hold a current account surplus of over 8pc of GDP.The implicit Deutsche Mark is “grossly undervalued”, he argues. The intra-EMU exchange rate is misaligned. To the extent that there is a self-correcting mechanism, it is through "austerity" policies in the South.This means that the eurozone has become a contractionary black hole, hollowing out world demand. It distorts the global economy. Germany has not shown any willingness to correct this. Berlin deems the eurozone surplus to be a virtue.

 

If you add to this US concerns regarding defence spending, Mr Trump says " Why should the Americans fork out billions to ensure Germany can run up a huge trading surplus under a protective umbrella they are not prepared to pay for?" . Barack Obama made the same point, calling the EU nations “complacent”, and urging them to increase spending at least to the two per cent of GDP required by Nato, but no one took him seriously.

 

They cannot ignore Mr Trump

 

 

They should and will.

 

The Orangutan will lose against RoW.

 

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by Grouse

[The Renegade]

18 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

Do you want to buy a great investment property in the East End of Glasgow?

???

 

Nah

[The Renegade]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

What does the EU ‘remit’ say about preventing war in a non member state?

You do not know ?

 

Look it up.

[7by7]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

I hadn't forgotten but I did say "and ONLY then if they are a registered UK voter".

 

I think but I am not sure that after a period of time many non-Brits are elegible to vote in elections as well.

 You think wrongly; as has been shown at least once in this topic previously.

 

Irish and qualifying Commonwealth citizens* have the same voting rights in all UK elections and referenda as British citizens do.

 

EU citizens living in the UK can vote in local and European parliament elections. Depending on where they live they can also vote in elections to the Scottish Parliament, Northern Ireland Assembly or Welsh Assembly.

 

Regardless of how long they have lived in the UK, all other non British citizens cannot vote in the UK until and unless they naturalise as British citizens.

 

See Types of election, referendums, and who can vote

 

*A qualifying Commonwealth citizen is a citizen of a Commonwealth country who has leave to enter or remain in the UK, or does not require such leave. As well as the UK, two other EU members, Malta and the Republic of Cyprus, are also Commonwealth countries. For voting matters in the UK, their Commonwealth citizenship takes precedence over their EU citizenship.

[The Renegade]

21 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

You challenged a post by another member and called him a liar; he asked you for evidence of that.

And it was provided.

 

If you missed that reply, not my issue.

[Grouse]

13 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

NATO was called into the former Yugoslavia in 1995 after the EU and UN failed dismally to end the conflict.

 

As for NATO not preventing the war, you should look into what NATO's remit is. 

The former Yugoslavia debacle is interesting looking back. At that time  I was pro Muslim Bosnia fighting the Russian backed Serbs. With hindsight, I may take a different viewpoint. The NATO Dutch contingent did not impress as I recall.

[Kieran00001]

15 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

NATO was called into the former Yugoslavia in 1995 after the EU and UN failed dismally to end the conflict.

 

As for NATO not preventing the war, you should look into what NATO's remit is. 

 

Look into how well NATO did at keeping Greece out of war, they simply left NATO went to war and then rejoined NATO once they were done, clearly NATO is all we need to end wars, its not like Greece finally has seen a few decades of peace for the first time in hundreds of years since joining the EU, is it?