Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[nauseus]

10 minutes ago, aright said:

Yes we could be brothers in arms with the Germans beating all before us.

 

Soldiers used broomsticks painted black instead of guns during a joint Nato exercise last year due to severe equipment shortages, it has emerged.

The incident took place during exercises for Nato's rapid response force, formed in reaction to the Ukraine crisis, which is supposed to be ready to deploy anywhere it is needed at very short notice.

Soldiers in the Panzergrenadierbataillon 371 took part in the exercises last September in Norway.

The troops were missing 31 per cent of their MG3 general-purpose machine guns, 41 per cent of their P8 handguns, and more than three-quarters of their Lucie night-vision devices.

Soldiers resorted to painting broomsticks black and attaching them to Boxer armoured vehicles to simulate gun barrels.

The German Defence Ministry sought to downplay the incident, saying the Boxer vehicles in question were being used as mobile headquarters, and were never supposed to be armed.

The shortages of handguns and machine-guns have since been rectified, a spokesman said.

It emerged last month that the German military was also using ordinary Mercedes vans as stand-ins for armoured personnel carriers during training because of equipment shortages.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11420627/German-army-used-broomsticks-instead-of-guns-during-training.html

But good news, the Wehrmacht has recently perfected a new technology to snap freeze bratwursts that can then be immediately fired from scaled-down and converted Katyusha rocket launchers. Who needs NATO? Ha!  

[nauseus]

20 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Is that an Americanism?

 

Ex forces people always think NATO is great. They should read more

Sorry yes. But incomplete. ☺️

[vogie]

39 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

I'm not sure you really helped my point there

 

41 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

Then you went on to talk about a freedom (priceless freedom)

He's obviously not watched the movie 'Braveheart'

 

[StreetCowboy]

13 minutes ago, aright said:

Any ideas where we can find the extra $66 B to do a good job.

The American War has been NATO’s biggest project, from Korea, through Vietnam, the Gulf and so forth. It’s great to stand together, keep your hand in, stay strong and so on.  Anything to keep the wheels of domestic industry turning, and give young black men a chance to escape gun violence

[StreetCowboy]

11 minutes ago, vogie said:

 

He's obviously not watched the movie 'Braveheart'

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by StreetCowboy
I apologise for the previous content of this post. The convicts that we shipped to the far end of the Earth have proved as true a friend to Britain as our richest plantation owners who chose to avoid their obligations to taxation many years ago.

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

I love Australians; many of them have reformed

Aye, ya canny beat the real thing.

 

[nauseus]

21 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

The continuous use of the term 'Project Fear' for any argument against leaving the UK, both before the referendum and since, merely shows that those using it have zero ability to argue against the points raised.

 

 As does responding to a post with 

 

Which is why the Remain campaign and those of us who supported it did not and do not, to the best of my recollection, use such terms in response to all the dire predictions from Brexiteers of what would happen had we remained in the EU or were to leave it on terms they disagree with!

No real need for your comments on my responses to others but to explain briefly:

 

The first post unnecessarily connects Brexit with war - war is often feared - I saw no good reason for SC to include it in this forum. The second was my opinion vv Grouse's; I don't like to use too many words and the reply was to him (we have been through all this before and I think he will understand - at least he did last time).

 

You can try to promote the good behaviour of remainers if you want to but I think they have generally behaved quite badly since the referendum. If the result had been in favour of remain, I think most leavers would have accepted it, in line with their highly-held democratic values and standards.

 

[billd766]

1 hour ago, StreetCowboy said:

I think that the EU reduces the risk of war in Europe.  NATO did not prevent war in the former Yugoslav republics.

 

Tell me how the EU increases the risk of war in Europe, and I will consider that.  

Outside the EU, how big is our voice in NATO?   How long can we rely on our Orange Brother across the pond, against his paymaster to the East?  How much say over EU policy? The Orange Buffoon's policy? do we have in EU or outside? 

 

But once we have back our Commonwealth - excluding one or two that have to kowtow to China for their resource exports and infrastructure investments - but together, we will be Great Again!

 

I have blissful senility to look forward to; my children may not be so lucky.

 

But Yugoslavia was not a member of the EU.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

Only local elections, not National elections.

 

Thank you. I wasn't sure, but I had to go out and didn't have time to check.

 

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 You think wrongly; as has been shown at least once in this topic previously.

 

Irish and qualifying Commonwealth citizens* have the same voting rights in all UK elections and referenda as British citizens do.

 

EU citizens living in the UK can vote in local and European parliament elections. Depending on where they live they can also vote in elections to the Scottish Parliament, Northern Ireland Assembly or Welsh Assembly.

 

Regardless of how long they have lived in the UK, all other non British citizens cannot vote in the UK until and unless they naturalise as British citizens.

 

See Types of election, referendums, and who can vote

 

*A qualifying Commonwealth citizen is a citizen of a Commonwealth country who has leave to enter or remain in the UK, or does not require such leave. As well as the UK, two other EU members, Malta and the Republic of Cyprus, are also Commonwealth countries. For voting matters in the UK, their Commonwealth citizenship takes precedence over their EU citizenship.

 

No, I did NOT think wrongly. I said that I was not sure, which is NOT the same thing.

 

I wasn't sure, but I had to go out and didn't have time to check.

 

[Kieran00001]

29 minutes ago, aright said:

Any ideas where we can find the extra $66 B to do a good job.

 

Not sure where you found that but everything has been decided by 10, the US spending 664 billion on military not 66.4.

 

[StreetCowboy]

13 minutes ago, nauseus said:

No real need for your comments on my responses to others but to explain briefly:

 

The first post unnecessarily connects Brexit with war - war is often feared - I saw no good reason for SC to include it in this forum. The second was my opinion vv Grouse's; I don't like to use too many words and the reply was to him (we have been through all this before and I think he will understand - at least he did last time).

 

You can try to promote the good behaviour of remainers if you want to but I think they have generally behaved quite badly since the referendum. If the result had been in favour of remain, I think most leavers would have accepted it, in line with their highly-held democratic values and standards.

 

I think peaceful collaboratioon and cooperation with our neighbours, and an ongoing convergence, reduces the risk of war.  Transam is proud of his father’s part in the last war, but I am sad about the loss of my grandmother’s brothers in the preceding war, and there is a great price that I would pay to avoid my children losing their family members again.  

[StreetCowboy]

The control of Syrian refugees is largely in our hands; establish peace in Syria, or accept the refugees.  Which is easier?  Inhumanity is not an option

[billd766]

38 minutes ago, nauseus said:

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Is that an Americanism?

 

Ex forces people always think NATO is great. They should read more

Sorry yes. But incomplete. ☺️

 

But Grouse many of the ex forces people were willing to put their lives on the line for people like you.

 

Would you be willing to do that for them?

 

Words are great for reading especially in books buy they won't stop a tank round.

 

You talk very much but have little to say and seem to have done even less.

[StreetCowboy]

3 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

But Grouse many of the ex forces people were willing to put their lives on the line for people like you.

 

Would you be willing to do that for them?

 

Words are great for reading especially in books buy they won't stop a tank round.

 

You talk very much but have little to say and seem to have done even less.

I’m with you.  People should only get a vote when they have fought in Imperialist wars; at the end of the war, we’ll decide which side was which.

 

My understanding is that in most countries, the military comes under the civic government, hence you have Commander in Chief Bone-Spurs.  I have some sympathy with the view that you have to spend some time in the trenches, or up to your elbows in geriatrics before you can vote, but that is not the way life is, today.

[aright]

56 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Not sure where you found that but everything has been decided by 10, the US spending 664 billion on military not 66.4.

 

You are right. Well spotted!!

[tomacht8]

23 minutes ago, aright said:

You are right. Well spotted!!

No the grafhic is right, coz shows only the Nato spendings. The rest of the military budget burns the US in its other world-wide adventures.

Only 10% of the usa military budget is for nato. 

 

[StreetCowboy]

5 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

No the grafhic is right, coz shows only the Nato spendings. The rest of the military budget burns the US in its other world-wide adventures.

Only 10% of the usa military budget is for nato. 

 

Aye, right.  The US spends more than the rest of the world on NATO, not including their spending on their war with the rest of the world.   How much did Putin pay you to say that?  Don't bother looking for a receipt.

 

This is a different war, and until we understand that we are fighting it, we are unlikely to win it.

[tomacht8]

9 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

Aye, right.  The US spends more than the rest of the world on NATO, not including their spending on their war with the rest of the world.   How much did Putin pay you to say that?  Don't bother looking for a receipt.

 

This is a different war, and until we understand that we are fighting it, we are unlikely to win it.

i would say the usa spends far too much money on the military.
and not the others too little!

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, StreetCowboy said:

I think peaceful collaboratioon and cooperation with our neighbours, and an ongoing convergence, reduces the risk of war.  Transam is proud of his father’s part in the last war, but I am sad about the loss of my grandmother’s brothers in the preceding war, and there is a great price that I would pay to avoid my children losing their family members again.  

I would actually encourage peaceful collaboration and cooperation with our neighbours. This can be achieved but the EU does not need to exist for this to happen.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

 

But Grouse many of the ex forces people were willing to put their lives on the line for people like you.

 

Would you be willing to do that for them?

 

Words are great for reading especially in books buy they won't stop a tank round.

 

You talk very much but have little to say and seem to have done even less.

We all do what we do. I am in no way belittling the armed forces or anyone else for that matter. I am just stating that The EU has avoided conflict in the area since the last war. 

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, aright said:

Any ideas where we can find the extra $66 B to do a good job.

I wouldn't bother frankly. Just tell the Americans to go home.

[SheungWan]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

Frankly, I trust Russia and China more than Trump's America.

This is one of the key reasons I am pro remain.

Past your bedtime.

[aright]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

 

Frankly, I trust Russia and China more than Trump's America.

 

This is one of the key reasons I am pro remain.

I can understand your wanting to stay in the EU and as a result your respect for Russia and China...……….they are all democratically equal aren't they. 

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Past your bedtime.

Indeed!

 

I was trying to express my dismay at Trump's untrustworthiness but failed miserably.

[7by7]

5 hours ago, nauseus said:

No real need for your comments on my responses to others...…….

No real need for your, my or anyone's comments at all!

 

But this is a forum, a place for discussion and as such I, like you and any other member, am entitled to post any comment I wish on any post I wish provided I stay within the forum rules.

 

I have checked thoroughly and there is nothing in those rules to say that I, or anyone else, cannot comment on your posts, regardless of who, if anyone, you were responding to.

 

5 hours ago, nauseus said:

but to explain briefly:

 

The first post unnecessarily connects Brexit with war - war is often feared - I saw no good reason for SC to include it in this forum. The second was my opinion vv Grouse's; I don't like to use too many words and the reply was to him (we have been through all this before and I think he will understand - at least he did last time).

The first post to which you refer concerns the fact that, for the first time in over 1000 years, there has been no war between the major powers in Europe since 1945 and that one of the factors which is responsible for that is the partnership which has led to the EU as we know it today.

 

If you and Grouse wish to address each other in shorthand or code, maybe PMs would be better rather than the public forum where others can read and respond to what you write.

 

5 hours ago, nauseus said:

You can try to promote the good behaviour of remainers if you want to but I think they have generally behaved quite badly since the referendum. 

Some Remainers have behaved badly since the referendum; I have never denied that. However the majority have behaved as I have, we have accepted that it will happen and want the best post Brexit deal with the EU for the UK.

 

Of course, we may not agree with each other, let alone with Brexiteers, what that deal should contain!

 

5 hours ago, nauseus said:

If the result had been in favour of remain, I think most leavers would have accepted it, in line with their highly-held democratic values and standards.

Just as most Remainers have accepted it for the exact same reason.

 

Unfortunately, whatever the subject of a referendum there always has been and always will be those on the losing side who wish to somehow change the results; witness Sturgeon and her party on the result of the Scottish independence referendum!

Edited June 17, 2018 by 7by7

[7by7]

5 hours ago, billd766 said:

<snip>

6 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 You think wrongly; as has been shown at least once in this topic previously.

 

Irish and qualifying Commonwealth citizens* have the same voting rights in all UK elections and referenda as British citizens do.

 

EU citizens living in the UK can vote in local and European parliament elections. Depending on where they live they can also vote in elections to the Scottish Parliament, Northern Ireland Assembly or Welsh Assembly.

 

Regardless of how long they have lived in the UK, all other non British citizens cannot vote in the UK until and unless they naturalise as British citizens.

 

See Types of election, referendums, and who can vote

 

*A qualifying Commonwealth citizen is a citizen of a Commonwealth country who has leave to enter or remain in the UK, or does not require such leave. As well as the UK, two other EU members, Malta and the Republic of Cyprus, are also Commonwealth countries. For voting matters in the UK, their Commonwealth citizenship takes precedence over their EU citizenship.

No, I did NOT think wrongly. I said that I was not sure, which is NOT the same thing.

 

I wasn't sure, but I had to go out and didn't have time to check.

 What you actually said was 

 

7 hours ago, billd766 said:

I think but I am not sure that after a period of time many non-Brits are elegible to vote in elections as well.

 "I think" IS the same thing as I think!

 

It is your term "after a period of time" which makes your thought incorrect. There is no residential qualifying period for non British citizens  to be able to vote in those UK elections they are qualified to vote in. They can do so immediately they become UK residents. Provided, of course, they register on their local electoral register.

[nontabury]

8 hours ago, StreetCowboy said:

Back in the day, I thought that Scottish, English, Welsh and Northern Irish people were pretty much only distinguishable by our accents, and we were a pretty much one United Kingdom.  And our cousins across the border on the Emerald Isle were not so different.  And we were part of one society, one continent with our neighbours, and despite a bit of Barnes Wallis banter and a few Wembley goal posts between friends, it was all pretty good natured, and the British Isles, and the European continent, had pretty much achieved peace amongst ourselves.

 

Tell me again how Brexit is going to reinforce that peace?

 

Transam's dad fought in the last war; I don't want my children to fight in the next one.

A good post. The peace can be reinforced by people accepting the democratic decision made by the people, at the referendum.

I also agree with you that there has always been a lot of friendly banter between people from different regions of the U.K. Unfortunately As a Scotsman you will now be aware of how the SNP, has to a large extent “45%” set family members against each other.

 

 

[nontabury]

8 hours ago, StreetCowboy said:

I think that the EU reduces the risk of war in Europe.  NATO did not prevent war in the former Yugoslav republics.

 

Tell me how the EU increases the risk of war in Europe, and I will consider that.  

Outside the EU, how big is our voice in NATO?   How long can we rely on our Orange Brother across the pond, against his paymaster to the East?  How much say over EU policy? The Orange Buffoon's policy? do we have in EU or outside? 

 

But once we have back our Commonwealth - excluding one or two that have to kowtow to China for their resource exports and infrastructure investments - but together, we will be Great Again!

 

I have blissful senility to look forward to; my children may not be so lucky.

Have you not noticed how much, very anti German sentiment has been expressed throughout Europe in recent years.  Even more than I can remember as a young schoolboy. could this be due to the E.U. being under the dominance of Germany.

 

[tebee]

Interesting thought about why so many of us seem to be taking Brexit personally .

 

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but whereas traditional politics has tended to divide people by class & ideology, Brexit tends to divide people by personality type and fundamental beliefs about social morality, and those divisions tend to be much more personal and bitter."

 

@nickreeves9876

[soalbundy]

10 hours ago, aright said:

You seem very relaxed about the current situation.

So Mr Gersbach is wrong 850000 jobs aren't at risk .

Prof. Gabriel Felbermayer from the IFO Institute in Munich is also wrong is he when he says "Trump tariffs and a no deal Brexit would cost the German car industry around  10bn euros.but the negative synergy of the two together would be worse than the sum of the parts. There is less leeway for trade diversion. Industry would be badly hurt, and nobody wants this kind of escalation,” 

You haven't mentioned Audi or VW. In the event of tariffs Audi is the worst hit since it doesn't manufacture cars in the USA and VW has 4 plants in Mexico which will attract tariffs when exporting to the USA.

Currently the USA gainfully employs 36000 workers making German cars. If they double output I am sure the Americans will enjoy the extra 36000 jobs. You don't seem concerned about job losses in Germany.

 

Peter Navarro, the ultra-hawkish White House trade adviser, argues that Germany has locked in a semi-permanent trade advantage through the deformed  structure of the euro, allowing it to amass and hold a current account surplus of over 8pc of GDP.The implicit Deutsche Mark is “grossly undervalued”, he argues. The intra-EMU exchange rate is misaligned. To the extent that there is a self-correcting mechanism, it is through "austerity" policies in the South.This means that the eurozone has become a contractionary black hole, hollowing out world demand. It distorts the global economy. Germany has not shown any willingness to correct this. Berlin deems the eurozone surplus to be a virtue.

 

If you add to this US concerns regarding defence spending, Mr Trump says " Why should the Americans fork out billions to ensure Germany can run up a huge trading surplus under a protective umbrella they are not prepared to pay for?" . Barack Obama made the same point, calling the EU nations “complacent”, and urging them to increase spending at least to the two per cent of GDP required by Nato, but no one took him seriously.

 

They cannot ignore Mr Trump

 

 

but it hasn't happened yet and in the link I posted it showed that this isn't as easy as he thinks, the fact that HE invited the Europeans to talk about tariffs and not the other way round shows this is dawning on him. He must be worried about his voting base being targeted on all fronts, Mexico, Canada, China and Europe, wouldn't be the first time that the blusterer stumbled. As I see it the future is electric powered cars, something German car makers have been gearing up for, BMW already has such a factory in China up and running and that is probably the market of the future with CKD (completely knocked down) deliveries and high end complete units from Germany. It wouldn't surprise me if Germany and China formed a much closer trade alliance in future due to Trump, a sort of 'your enemy is also my enemy' Russia is also on the EU's doorstep, once the theatrical sabre rattling stops that large amount of trade between the two can pick up again. Trump ought to be aware that once the industrial nations get used to a consumer world without America they will be sidelined, Europe alone has double the population of America.