Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[Khun Han]

12 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

They did not do well but they are still the most popular choice, is that difficult for you to understand?  Elections are not won by percentages gained or lost, they are won by majorities, and SNP held theirs.

 

I agree, which is why the reaction by many to Labour's performance in the last general election made no sense. But, just as with the Tories, the SNP's popularity fell markedly. And, according to the latest opinion polls, the SNP's popularity has continued to fall.

[simoh1490]

Just now, CG1 Blue said:

Have you had a bad day?

I'm having a great day and it's only getting better, helping people with their reading comprehension is always rewarding.

[Guest]

Are there any estimations how long the separation of Scotland from UK would take after the vote?

Hopefully it would not be as slow as this brexit has been. 

[Kieran00001]

6 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

I agree, which is why the reaction by many to Labour's performance in the last general election made no sense. But, just as with the Tories, the SNP's popularity fell markedly. And, according to the latest opinion polls, the SNP's popularity has continued to fall.

 

It has, but the independence polls haven't continued to fall, which is really what we were talking about.

[CG1 Blue]

44 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Are there any estimations how long the separation of Scotland from UK would take after the vote?

Hopefully it would not be as slow as this brexit has been. 

Well the UK has been a member of the EU in it's various forms for around 40 years. Scotland has been part of the UK for more than 300 years.

Scotland and the rest of the UK have full economic union, shared assets, and are a lot more integrated than the UK is with the EU. So I don’t think it would be a quick process.

If it does ever happen (and I hope it doesn’t), I just hope it is an amicable split.

[aright]

1 hour ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Perhaps they are waiting for May to secure it for them.

Well Scotland has always somewhat  depended on England haven't they.

[dunroaming]

On ‎3‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 2:45 PM, Jip99 said:

 

Indeed, none of your business, but this is an open forum and I am content to confirm that the future of the UK affects my incomes (pension+pension+remuneration) and more importantly the futures (and inheritances) of my daughters. I voted (as I am sure we all did) for a better future for our loved ones.

 

 

Unfortunately, you missed the humour in my eggs comment - perhaps because you don't live in Thailand - with the lax health & safety/hygiene regulations here, the likes of DEFRA/EU are irrelevant.

Touché

You are right I don't live in Thailand anymore.  When we did we bought our eggs from the local market (usually duck eggs actually) and I don't remember any adverse side effects.

 

As I said none of my business about how Brexit affects you personally.  I do agree that we all voted for what we feel is best for our children.  It is a great pity that more young people didn't go out and vote because it is their future we are affecting.

 

Maybe, just maybe, the Brexit that the leavers voted for would be good for the future of Britain, but you aren't getting what you voted for.  The promises made were never viable and although you voted in good faith you were lied to and betrayed.  It is OK to say that May and Davis and the negotiators are failing to deliver but in fact they can't deliver.  That was evident from day one.

 

We are all losing here and you should be angry about that, I know I am.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

I agree, which is why the reaction by many to Labour's performance in the last general election made no sense. But, just as with the Tories, the SNP's popularity fell markedly. And, according to the latest opinion polls, the SNP's popularity has continued to fall.

 

Which polls are those? The Ipsos Mori poll of last weekend had support for independence at 48%. That is as high as it as ever been.

 

"With the undecideds removed, the percentage backing independence rose to 48%. "

[RuamRudy]

20 minutes ago, aright said:

Well Scotland has always somewhat  depended on England haven't they.

Are you sure about that?

 

[RuamRudy]

This guy is no slouch when it comes to understanding the markets.

 

[Jip99]

20 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Touché

You are right I don't live in Thailand anymore.  When we did we bought our eggs from the local market (usually duck eggs actually) and I don't remember any adverse side effects.

 

As I said none of my business about how Brexit affects you personally.  I do agree that we all voted for what we feel is best for our children.  It is a great pity that more young people didn't go out and vote because it is their future we are affecting.

 

Maybe, just maybe, the Brexit that the leavers voted for would be good for the future of Britain, but you aren't getting what you voted for.  The promises made were never viable and although you voted in good faith you were lied to and betrayed.  It is OK to say that May and Davis and the negotiators are failing to deliver but in fact they can't deliver.  That was evident from day one.

 

We are all losing here and you should be angry about that, I know I am.

 

I am also angry, but about the ineptitude of government.... prior to the referendum and since.

 

Nothing changes my mind about the decision to vote to leave the EU.... I was up for that long before the vote. I voted to leave the EU because I preferred that to staying in the EU. Not necessarily for me, but the major issue was no that one (Cameron, the EU, May, the Tories) could tell us what BREXIT looked like. Any lies on the Leave side were no more influencing than the lies on the Remain side.

 

Whilst Brexit opened the door to a right wing element to make it (mainly) an immigration issue - and an extreme one in their case - it was never going to be a situation where people were forcibly repatriated, Sharia law outlawed and mosques demolished (nor should it be).

 

Brexit for me was about the principle of taking control back over a number of issues... laws that affected the UK, the right to set limits/quotas on immigration - and refugees. Decisions that felt should be taken at national level, not EU level. It was also about a belief that the EU had grown out of control and was unrecognisable from the EEC that we joined in 1973. I find myself relating to speeches by Peter Shore and Tony Benn - politicians who I had voted against all my life. It is nothing about imperialism and bringing back the old empire days - far from it.

 

As much as I cannot relate to the politics of Nigel Farage I do applaud him for securing the referendum - something that may have been unnecessary if the highly capable Cameron had had the balls to do his job properly - oh, how I wish Cameron was a Brexiteer and leading the exit.

 

So, I don't care what number it had on the Brexit bus but I did like the idea that funds saved from EU contributions would give the option of better funding for the NHS. I liked the idea that the UK, rather than the EU could determine how many refugees it accepted and I liked the idea that the UK had control of it's own borders - Freedom of Movement was a good idea when there were 9 central European countries.

 

Should there have been a bet defined package of what Brexit entailed ? Yes, of course, but even the EU had no blueprint for a member leaving, as didn't Cameron's government! Article 50 was written with the intention of it never being used.... it was like having a heading 'The theory of physics'... with blank pages below.

 

Is it a complete balls up ? Yes it is, for a number of reasons and few people come out of this with any credit - however, that still does not make the fundamental decision to leave wrong.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

I am also angry, but about the ineptitude of government.... prior to the referendum and since.

 

Nothing changes my mind about the decision to vote to leave the EU.... I

 

I liked your post, not because I necessarily agree with your position, but because it is rare that I have seen the Brexiter's position expressed without a lot of the hysteria and hubris. That said, both sides were dominated by the more headline grabbing personalities and their lurid claims, which, I believe, led to many in the the soft middle (or was it only me?) feeling a bit bamboozled and unrepresented fully by either side.

[Khun Han]

54 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Which polls are those? The Ipsos Mori poll of last weekend had support for independence at 48%. That is as high as it as ever been.

 

"With the undecideds removed, the percentage backing independence rose to 48%. "

 

The ones about the SNP's popularity, as I stated in my post that you quoted.

[Jip99]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I liked your post, not because I necessarily agree with your position, but because it is rare that I have seen the Brexiter's position expressed without a lot of the hysteria and hubris. That said, both sides were dominated by the more headline grabbing personalities and their lurid claims, which, I believe, led to many in the the soft middle (or was it only me?) feeling a bit bamboozled and unrepresented fully by either side.

 

 

Perhaps because I live in Thailand, and avoid mainstream news programmes, I missed all that cr4p!

 

Those headline grabbing/lurid claims were from both sides with the 'establishment' forecasting Doomsday and every corporate leaving London. That very quickly didn't happen. We can't prevent the bullshit, but perhaps we can sift it - like Corbyn's promises about student loans; few were taken in, except perhaps students.

 

My eldest daughter did not decide which way to vote until the day of the referendum - I think she certainly felt bamboozled. I had several friends who voted to remain because that was the easiest/safest "better the devil you know" option.

 

I am no tub-thumper and certainly not into hysteria. Rather, I made my decision based on weighing up where we were (and how we got there) versus what I believed Brexit might look like.  An impossible appraisal in hindsight and I can accept the argument that voting to leave was rather like playing Poker, blind. That may be the case, but when I felt I was holding 2,3,6,8,9 of different coloured cards then even blind Poker looked attractive!

 

Thank you for recognising that I expressed my position sensibly - I repeat that I am a moderate centre right conservative thinker who loves Europe but detested what the EU had become (and it's performance over the previous 10 years). Remember also that there are many who voted Remain who are capable of prejudice and hysteria....one example... a Facebook 'friend' (we never actually met but we had a common interest)had the audacity to de-friend me for having an opposing view to him on Brexit. No debate, and in de-friending me he accused me of being a bigoted racist (simply by voting to leave). Sad that the polarisation associated with this process has become so wide.

[dunroaming]

36 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

I am also angry, but about the ineptitude of government.... prior to the referendum and since.

 

Nothing changes my mind about the decision to vote to leave the EU.... I was up for that long before the vote. I voted to leave the EU because I preferred that to staying in the EU. Not necessarily for me, but the major issue was no that one (Cameron, the EU, May, the Tories) could tell us what BREXIT looked like. Any lies on the Leave side were no more influencing than the lies on the Remain side.

 

Whilst Brexit opened the door to a right wing element to make it (mainly) an immigration issue - and an extreme one in their case - it was never going to be a situation where people were forcibly repatriated, Sharia law outlawed and mosques demolished (nor should it be).

 

Brexit for me was about the principle of taking control back over a number of issues... laws that affected the UK, the right to set limits/quotas on immigration - and refugees. Decisions that felt should be taken at national level, not EU level. It was also about a belief that the EU had grown out of control and was unrecognisable from the EEC that we joined in 1973. I find myself relating to speeches by Peter Shore and Tony Benn - politicians who I had voted against all my life. It is nothing about imperialism and bringing back the old empire days - far from it.

 

As much as I cannot relate to the politics of Nigel Farage I do applaud him for securing the referendum - something that may have been unnecessary if the highly capable Cameron had had the balls to do his job properly - oh, how I wish Cameron was a Brexiteer and leading the exit.

 

So, I don't care what number it had on the Brexit bus but I did like the idea that funds saved from EU contributions would give the option of better funding for the NHS. I liked the idea that the UK, rather than the EU could determine how many refugees it accepted and I liked the idea that the UK had control of it's own borders - Freedom of Movement was a good idea when there were 9 central European countries.

 

Should there have been a bet defined package of what Brexit entailed ? Yes, of course, but even the EU had no blueprint for a member leaving, as didn't Cameron's government! Article 50 was written with the intention of it never being used.... it was like having a heading 'The theory of physics'... with blank pages below.

 

Is it a complete balls up ? Yes it is, for a number of reasons and few people come out of this with any credit - however, that still does not make the fundamental decision to leave wrong.

 

 

Good post and well argued.

 

No buts from me this time although I would ask one more question.  Given where we are today, do you think  Brexit, as it  looks now, is going to deliver what you voted for? 

 

I know that is a bit unfair given that nothing as yet has been agreed in writing but with all the concessions now in place I think it is valid.

[Jip99]

3 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Good post and well argued.

 

No buts from me this time although I would ask one more question.  Given where we are today, do you think  Brexit, as it  looks now, is going to deliver what you voted for? 

 

I know that is a bit unfair given that nothing as yet has been agreed in writing but with all the concessions now in place I think it is valid.

 

 

I think that is a tough one.... a fair question because on 23rd June 2016 you could have reasonably asked me "do you think  Brexit will deliver what you are voting for?"

 

I have to say, yes............. and in all honesty I think that is because mt objective was to leave the EU.

 

If you say, "well that is a bit cavalier" I would have to respond by saying - "well that is what the options were that were presented to me., and getting out of the EU was what I wanted". It almost didn't matter what we were going into, there was a confidence that   'any Brexit is better than no Brexit'.

 

Did I expect someone to have a cohesive blueprint for an orderly withdrawal from the EU on terms that may have been penciled in by EU hierarchy - yes, in my naivety, I did.

 

I am not sure how I would have answered your question, gad you asked... "would you have voted for Brexit if you knew that Cameron would immediately resign, the government had no such blueprint and they were going to put some inept remainer in charge of the exit process".

 

I suspect the answer would have been.. (and I know you are looking for me to say this, so I will )......   "Of course not, how could I vote for something that has no structure, no leadership and no heart  -  take the referendum away and bring it back to me when you have a suitable manifesto/blueprint".

 

Now... please don't jump all over me and say that is exactly the reason we should have another referendum because I don't agree that we should. Just because they forked up the process doesn't mean that the remain/leave vote was wrong.

[tebee]

It's not just May who is incompetent  - the whole team is. Recently David Davis was talking about the importance of avoiding customs tariffs on services in any post Brexit agreement . There are no customs tariffs on services  - you think he would have realized that by now!

 

We are coming up to two years after the referendum and no one has come up with any  sort of idea of what we want -  other than "cake and eat it" proposals that would be impossible anyway under EU law.

 

Where are the people with the workable plans on the leave side?  Right now the EU red lines have won out over TM ones and we will have to meekly accept whatever is offered as we have no ideas of our own.

[dabhand]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Which polls are those? The Ipsos Mori poll of last weekend had support for independence at 48%. That is as high as it as ever been.

 

"With the undecideds removed, the percentage backing independence rose to 48%. "

Erm, not quite. Even restricting it to just Ipsos Mori polling since September 2016, always best to compare results from the same pollster due to varying methodologies used (particularly as this pollster, since Aug15, has almost always shown the indy vote to be a few % points above the others at similar times), the support for independence has been:

Sep16 - 47%

Mar17 - 51%

May17 - 47%

Mar18 - 48%

 

So, the recent poll showing support for independence ' as high as it (h)as ever been'? Don't really think so. 

[Grouse]

Sorry to be late on parade; work and all that!

 

I am saddened to read the churlish comments about education. EVERYTHING I have is a result of education. In our knowledge based economy, education is key.

 

For those who don't understand that, I am depressed.

 

Two recent examples on here:

 

I discussed nerve agents and how plants, batches could be identified. No comment.

 

I explained the Cambridge Analytica / Facebook issues in terms of neural networks. No comment.

 

So let's leave it at that.

[dunroaming]

7 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

I think that is a tough one.... a fair question because on 23rd June 2016 you could have reasonably asked me "do you think  Brexit will deliver what you are voting for?"

 

I have to say, yes............. and in all honesty I think that is because mt objective was to leave the EU.

 

If you say, "well that is a bit cavalier" I would have to respond by saying - "well that is what the options were that were presented to me., and getting out of the EU was what I wanted". It almost didn't matter what we were going into, there was a confidence that   'any Brexit is better than no Brexit'.

 

Did I expect someone to have a cohesive blueprint for an orderly withdrawal from the EU on terms that may have been penciled in by EU hierarchy - yes, in my naivety, I did.

 

I am not sure how I would have answered your question, gad you asked... "would you have voted for Brexit if you knew that Cameron would immediately resign, the government had no such blueprint and they were going to put some inept remainer in charge of the exit process".

 

I suspect the answer would have been.. (and I know you are looking for me to say this, so I will )......   "Of course not, how could I vote for something that has no structure, no leadership and no heart  -  take the referendum away and bring it back to me when you have a suitable manifesto/blueprint".

 

Now... please don't jump all over me and say that is exactly the reason we should have another referendum because I don't agree that we should. Just because they forked up the process doesn't mean that the remain/leave vote was wrong.

I wouldn't dream of jumping all over you over anything.  I understand your position completely.

 

When it came to the vote I spent a good ten minutes in the voting booth trying to decide which way to vote.  My arguments with myself were, on one hand the EU has some serious flaws and needs an overhaul to make it worthwhile staying in.  By leaving there is a chance that it would either collapse or force through radical change.  Therefore tick the leave box.  On the other hand, by leaving we would have no chance in influencing those changes and lose (in my opinion) a great deal of the trading benefits.  To lose London as the banking hub would be dire etc. etc.  So on balance I ticked the remain box.  I felt that the risk was too great and that we should stay in and fight for reforms.

 

I wasn't swayed by the rhetoric from either side because it was all speculation based on nothing known.  After the result the backtracking started on both sides and it became obvious that the referendum was all about political positioning and the players didn't give a toss about the people.  It was just the backstabbing that was the motivation.  In twenty four hours Johnson went from being a passionate remainer to being a passionate Brexiteer.  That should have flagged up the warning signs immediately. 

[vogie]

15 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Sorry to be late on parade; work and all that!

 

I am saddened to read the churlish comments about education. EVERYTHING I have is a result of education. In our knowledge based economy, education is key.

 

For those who don't understand that, I am depressed.

 

Two recent examples on here:

 

I discussed nerve agents and how plants, batches could be identified. No comment.

 

I explained the Cambridge Analytica / Facebook issues in terms of neural networks. No comment.

 

So let's leave it at that.

Re Facebook, I poked you.

[CG1 Blue]

8 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Sorry to be late on parade; work and all that!

 

I am saddened to read the churlish comments about education. EVERYTHING I have is a result of education. In our knowledge based economy, education is key.

 

For those who don't understand that, I am depressed.

 

Two recent examples on here:

 

I discussed nerve agents and how plants, batches could be identified. No comment.

 

I explained the Cambridge Analytica / Facebook issues in terms of neural networks. No comment.

 

So let's leave it at that.

Education is key for you, and that's fine. Personally I went to a cr4p school which subsequently closed and was replaced with an Asda supermarket. I hardly showed up at college, and landed a low level job in a bank. I went on to have a pretty successful career.

I was tired of being in the education system so I had to move on.  This didn't stop me learning, and I never lost the thirst for knowledge. I like to think I can debate intelligently with people at all levels.

I apologise if it was me who offended you, but I hope you agree that an amazing education is not the only measure of a man.

[dunroaming]

1 minute ago, CG1 Blue said:

Education is key for you, and that's fine. Personally I went to a cr4p school which subsequently closed and was replaced with an Asda supermarket. I hardly showed up at college, and landed a low level job in a bank. I went on to have a pretty successful career.

I was tired of being in the education system so I had to move on.  This didn't stop me learning, and I never lost the thirst for knowledge. I like to think I can debate intelligently with people at all levels.

I apologise if it was me who offended you, but I hope you agree that an amazing education is not the only measure of a man.

Good post.  Sir Phillip Green was working on a market stall by the age of fifteen and Richard Branson didn't go to university.  Some people flourish where others don't.  However knowledge is vitally important and some get theirs from their education and some from the street.  I went to uni and got a degree and then went into a business totally unrelated.  One of my friends from uni went on to run a very successful company directly related to his M.A.  You just never know. 

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

This guy is no slouch when it comes to understanding the markets.

 

 

And then I read George Sores. A person who has pledged £400,000

to fight The wishes of the British people.

 

 

[nontabury]

44 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

I wouldn't dream of jumping all over you over anything.  I understand your position completely.

 

When it came to the vote I spent a good ten minutes in the voting booth trying to decide which way to vote.  My arguments with myself were, on one hand the EU has some serious flaws and needs an overhaul to make it worthwhile staying in.  By leaving there is a chance that it would either collapse or force through radical change.  Therefore tick the leave box.  On the other hand, by leaving we would have no chance in influencing those changes and lose (in my opinion) a great deal of the trading benefits.  To lose London as the banking hub would be dire etc. etc.  So on balance I ticked the remain box.  I felt that the risk was too great and that we should stay in and fight for reforms.

 

I wasn't swayed by the rhetoric from either side because it was all speculation based on nothing known.  After the result the backtracking started on both sides and it became obvious that the referendum was all about political positioning and the players didn't give a toss about the people.  It was just the backstabbing that was the motivation.  In twenty four hours Johnson went from being a passionate remainer to being a passionate Brexiteer.  That should have flagged up the warning signs immediately. 

I always like reading your post, even though you are a ( soft. ) remainer. You always try to offer a balanced opinion, unlike some arrogant remoaners on this thread. Two points I would Like to raise with you. 1/ You were nfluenced into voting remain, by the scare stories  that London would lose it’s banking hub, which obviously has’t happened, and likely may never happen. 2/ Yes Johnson did  go from a remainer to a passionate Brexiteer, though this change did occur before the referendum, but maybe, just maybe this occurred when he became fully aware of the advantages to leaving, and realising that the E.U could never be changed by remaining in.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

 

And then I read George Sores. A person who has pledged £400,000

to fight The wishes of the British people.

 

 

I think we need a spew emoji.

[aright]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

I am saddened to read the churlish comments about education. EVERYTHING I have is a result of education. In our knowledge based economy, education is key.

 

For those who don't understand that, I am depressed.

 

Sorry but I don't understand that and like you I disagree with churlish comments but you do have a tendency to use education as a weapon rather than a tool.. Why are you trying to conflate education and knowledge. Some of the best educated people are in the lower house but look at the mess. Your only expression of anyone with more than half a brain is Vince Cable which I disagree with. Does that make you better educated and/or more knowledgeable than me.

The purpose of education is to turn mirrors into windows. However if you spend too much time looking into the mirror there is a danger you become self reflective.

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

I always like reading your post, even though you are a ( soft. ) remainer. You always try to offer a balanced opinion, unlike some arrogant remoaners on this thread. Two points I would Like to raise with you. 1/ You were nfluenced into voting remain, by the scare stories  that London would lose it’s banking hub, which obviously has’t happened, and likely may never happen. 2/ Yes Johnson did  go from a remainer to a passionate Brexiteer, though this change did occur before the referendum, but maybe, just maybe this occurred when he became fully aware of the advantages to leaving, and realising that the E.U could never be changed by remaining in.

I was giving the banking hub as an example (hence the etc. etc.). Of course we do not know what we will lose and hopefully with the Brexit getting softer and softer it won't be too much.  By the way you call me a (soft) remainer but as I am looking for a soft Brexit maybe that should be a (soft) leaver. 

 

As  for Boris you are right he changed his colours directly before the Brexit campaign and then became the driving force behind it.  He had until then written extensively on the importance of staying in.  It was his opportunity to oust Cameron, which he did, before running scared once he had seen what he had done, and then backed May to pick up the poisoned chalice.

[ukrules]

The liked story has zero to do with 'Brexit' in any way.

 

Any real day to day problems caused by Brexit won't start until next year.

 

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, ukrules said:

The liked story has zero to do with 'Brexit' in any way.

 

Any real day to day problems caused by Brexit won't start until next year.

 

I would think any day to day problems with Brexit will come after December 2020.   That is when the reality kicks in