phetpeter Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 The main point is you are allowed to teach, most online teaching is not for Thai students, it is for Chinese students, You are working under contract as a freelance tutor. It is your responsibility to declare if required under the law of the country you are in. You are not breaking any Thai laws unless the money is paid to you direct to Thailand, which it is not. Money you transfer into Thailand is legal and should be declare in the country bank account you keep it. Transferring for personal use is not taxable if it is under a certain each month and you then do not have to confirm where your money is coming from as it will be from income from savings. Simple don't teach online to Thai students unless the company is will to fulfill the legal requirements for teaching Thai's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 5 hours ago, phetpeter said: The main point is you are allowed to teach, most online teaching is not for Thai students, it is for Chinese students, You are working under contract as a freelance tutor. It is your responsibility to declare if required under the law of the country you are in. You are not breaking any Thai laws unless the money is paid to you direct to Thailand, which it is not. Money you transfer into Thailand is legal and should be declare in the country bank account you keep it. Transferring for personal use is not taxable if it is under a certain each month and you then do not have to confirm where your money is coming from as it will be from income from savings. Simple don't teach online to Thai students unless the company is will to fulfill the legal requirements for teaching Thai's In any other country your reasoning might be flawless. However, it is regarded as working without the required visa and thus is unlawful- wouldn't you know! Luckily, the authorities aren't bothered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pearciderman Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 5 hours ago, phetpeter said: The main point is you are allowed to teach, most online teaching is not for Thai students, it is for Chinese students, You are working under contract as a freelance tutor. It is your responsibility to declare if required under the law of the country you are in. You are not breaking any Thai laws unless the money is paid to you direct to Thailand, which it is not. Money you transfer into Thailand is legal and should be declare in the country bank account you keep it. Transferring for personal use is not taxable if it is under a certain each month and you then do not have to confirm where your money is coming from as it will be from income from savings. Simple don't teach online to Thai students unless the company is will to fulfill the legal requirements for teaching Thai's You clearly have NO clue about Thai labour law. Stop giving incorrect information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diddygq Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 21 hours ago, mommysboy said: In any other country your reasoning might be flawless. However, it is regarded as working without the required visa and thus is unlawful- wouldn't you know! Luckily, the authorities aren't bothered. You must be one of the old dinosaurs people talk about on TV. Two days ago in Chiang Mai, they just had another huge conference for the digital nomads there where Immigration and the Thai Labor Office spoke. As long as you aren't overstaying your visa (no matter what visa you are on) and they money isn't coming from a Thai company it's legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 6 hours ago, diddygq said: You must be one of the old dinosaurs people talk about on TV. Two days ago in Chiang Mai, they just had another huge conference for the digital nomads there where Immigration and the Thai Labor Office spoke. As long as you aren't overstaying your visa (no matter what visa you are on) and they money isn't coming from a Thai company it's legal. Try reading the whole thread: we discovered that by the letter of the law it is unlawful. There are various factors that are taken in to consideration. Tellingly, the official interviewed in Chiang Mai described online teaching without a visa as technically illegal, but also went on to say that it was tolerated as it caused no concern. The scale of operation, the venue (home), and the extent to which Thai resources are used are factors. The new directive is aimed at larger scale investors, and tech innovators. I am glad it does not appear to be illegal. On balance I feel it is not under Thai jurisdiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreavinalaff Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 9 hours ago, mommysboy said: Try reading the whole thread: we discovered that by the letter of the law it is unlawful. There are various factors that are taken in to consideration. Tellingly, the official interviewed in Chiang Mai described online teaching without a visa as technically illegal, but also went on to say that it was tolerated as it caused no concern. The scale of operation, the venue (home), and the extent to which Thai resources are used are factors. The new directive is aimed at larger scale investors, and tech innovators. I am glad it does not appear to be illegal. On balance I feel it is not under Thai jurisdiction. Working with or without a visa is not the point. The point is that there is not a visa or work permit to cover such work. Therefore, there is no law to govern this and that appears to be why the officials are tolerating it. Being a digital nomas in Thailand has been a grey area long before the apparent boom of online teaching. There was a question asked earlier on this thread "Who is going to go to immigration or labour office and admit to online teaching?"(or words to that effect). My question would be "Who would go to immigration and labour office to apply for an extension of stay and work permit, based on online teaching, if in fact there was one?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loaded Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said: Working with or without a visa is not the point. The point is that there is not a visa or work permit to cover such work. Therefore, there is no law to govern this and that appears to be why the officials are tolerating it. Being a digital nomas in Thailand has been a grey area long before the apparent boom of online teaching. There was a question asked earlier on this thread "Who is going to go to immigration or labour office and admit to online teaching?"(or words to that effect). My question would be "Who would go to immigration and labour office to apply for an extension of stay and work permit, based on online teaching, if in fact there was one?" Try this http://www.mol.go.th/sites/default/files/downloads/pdf/WORKING_OF_ALIEN_ACT_2551_DOE.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 2 hours ago, youreavinalaff said: Working with or without a visa is not the point. The point is that there is not a visa or work permit to cover such work. Therefore, there is no law to govern this and that appears to be why the officials are tolerating it. Being a digital nomas in Thailand has been a grey area long before the apparent boom of online teaching. There was a question asked earlier on this thread "Who is going to go to immigration or labour office and admit to online teaching?"(or words to that effect). My question would be "Who would go to immigration and labour office to apply for an extension of stay and work permit, based on online teaching, if in fact there was one?" I think you have become a little abstracted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreavinalaff Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 15 minutes ago, mommysboy said: I think you have become a little abstracted. Not at all. That is basically what is going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreavinalaff Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Loaded said: Try this http://www.mol.go.th/sites/default/files/downloads/pdf/WORKING_OF_ALIEN_ACT_2551_DOE.pdf That is the exact same act that the officials are saying does not cover the matter of digital nomads. Clearly it needs to be amended to accommodate such work. It really does not bother me either way. I am just trying to put a different angle on matters rather than half saying a definite "yes" and half saying a definite "No". This is grey, not black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 33 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said: That is the exact same act that the officials are saying does not cover the matter of digital nomads. Clearly it needs to be amended to accommodate such work. It really does not bother me either way. I am just trying to put a different angle on matters rather than half saying a definite "yes" and half saying a definite "No". This is grey, not black and white. The other thing is that the letter of the law is only the half of it. It is really more a case of someone at a higher level deciding whether it is legal or not. Then, as I said, it's about activity, scale, feasibility, etc. Only one poster insists it is a black and white issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loaded Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 33 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said: That is the exact same act that the officials are saying does not cover the matter of digital nomads. Clearly it needs to be amended to accommodate such work. It really does not bother me either way. I am just trying to put a different angle on matters rather than half saying a definite "yes" and half saying a definite "No". This is grey, not black and white. It covers 'aliens' working in Thailand. Your argument that because online teaching to China isn't mentioned so it's not covered is silly. Online teachers break a number of employment related laws. There does seem to be widespread tolerance of this lawbreaking. However, online teaching is getting bigger and bigger and eventually the authorities will notice and act. Blocking the URLs and the Thai government making official protests to China would kill the industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 40 minutes ago, Loaded said: It covers 'aliens' working in Thailand. Your argument that because online teaching to China isn't mentioned so it's not covered is silly. Online teachers break a number of employment related laws. There does seem to be widespread tolerance of this lawbreaking. However, online teaching is getting bigger and bigger and eventually the authorities will notice and act. Blocking the URLs and the Thai government making official protests to China would kill the industry. They may be breaking a number of laws. I don't think it is certain at all. You could get away with probable. Just the one as far as I can see. As you say, there is widespread tolerance and, as another pointed out, it could be that they don't give a toss because absolutely no harm is being done. Why would it be banned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreavinalaff Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 41 minutes ago, Loaded said: It covers 'aliens' working in Thailand. Your argument that because online teaching to China isn't mentioned so it's not covered is silly. Online teachers break a number of employment related laws. There does seem to be widespread tolerance of this lawbreaking. However, online teaching is getting bigger and bigger and eventually the authorities will notice and act. Blocking the URLs and the Thai government making official protests to China would kill the industry. If you read what you quoted, you will see I am talking about being a digital nomad. Not just teaching in China. Protests from Thailand to China killing the industry....that's funny. Not only would China likely laugh it off, there are digital nomads all over the world working with clients all over the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Loaded seems to equate online teaching with criminal activity- frankly, that's mental! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loaded Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 4 hours ago, mommysboy said: Loaded seems to equate online teaching with criminal activity- frankly, that's mental! well, it is illegal and you are avoiding paying tax on your income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreavinalaff Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 24 minutes ago, Loaded said: well, it is illegal and you are avoiding paying tax on your income. How do you come to that conclusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loaded Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 2 hours ago, youreavinalaff said: How do you come to that conclusion? jeez, this is painful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorecard Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 On 20/3/2561 at 1:38 AM, mommysboy said: I imagine it is a complex issue but my understanding differs. If the teacher is working for an offshore registered entity, is not teaching Thai students in Thailand, and the money is not being paid in to a Thai bank account then it is likely not deemed as working in Thailand. The only high profile case in Thailand happened where online workers were actually working from from an office in Thailand and were being hired as employees in Thailand. There is a difference. Even if it is illegal, I somehow imagine internet police have much bigger fish to fry. The cost of tracking one individual online who is teaching would be unjustifiable. Yet, Thailand is renowned for the ludicrous. Is it the way to go? Well I don't think it pays much unless you put in significant effort and could not be considered a stable position. But this is a business that looks set to boom as it tends to be much cheaper for the student and more convenient. As the OP points out, Thailand has made it increasingly difficult for the standard ESL teacher to make an honest and simple living. Anything that keeps a teacher out of a sweatshop school is of benefit, if only as a stop gap imo. "I imagine it is a complex issue but my understanding differs. If the teacher is working for an offshore registered entity, is not teaching Thai students in Thailand, and the money is not being paid in to a Thai bank account then it is likely not deemed as working in Thailand. ......" Suggest you read the definition of working in the appropriate part of the Thai labor law. It's somewhat different to your analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pearciderman Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 17 hours ago, mommysboy said: They may be breaking a number of laws. I don't think it is certain at all. You could get away with probable. Just the one as far as I can see. If that is what you can see, you need new glasses. Online work is breaking both Immigration and Labour law - no WP and working on a tourist visa, (for the most part). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorecard Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 On 28/3/2561 at 2:26 PM, phetpeter said: The main point is you are allowed to teach, most online teaching is not for Thai students, it is for Chinese students, You are working under contract as a freelance tutor. It is your responsibility to declare if required under the law of the country you are in. You are not breaking any Thai laws unless the money is paid to you direct to Thailand, which it is not. Money you transfer into Thailand is legal and should be declare in the country bank account you keep it. Transferring for personal use is not taxable if it is under a certain each month and you then do not have to confirm where your money is coming from as it will be from income from savings. Simple don't teach online to Thai students unless the company is will to fulfill the legal requirements for teaching Thai's You're making a lot of convenient assumptions which are not what the appropriate Thai laws indicate. 'Freelance tutor' 'fees paid into offshore bank account' etc., doesn't change anything. The fact is you are physically in Thailand when you are doing it, therefore there are applicable Thai laws, as already mentioned at least 2 Thai laws are involved; WP laws and Visa laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreavinalaff Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 12 hours ago, Loaded said: jeez, this is painful. Why? Just asking how you know that everyone who works online does not pay tax. That aside, as you are still assuming it is black and white when it clearly isn't, it would be nice to think that the Thai authorities would realise there is money to be made here. They really should start to look at this in a positive way. Get a facility going where digital nomads can get the required work permit and then pay tax here in Thailand. If they go the other way then people will just move on to another country that is a bit more accommodating, as many of the ESL teachers have done already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pearciderman Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 3 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said: They really should start to look at this in a positive way. Get a facility going where digital nomads can get the required work permit and then pay tax here in Thailand. They can, companies like Iglu can sort all that out for real internet workers, they only require a minimum income of 2k USD. Of course your begpacker YouTuber is never making that, or even those that are don't want to pay to become legal. So please stop thinking options are not there, they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreavinalaff Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 Just now, pearciderman said: They can, companies like Iglu can sort all that out for real internet workers, they only require a minimum income of 2k USD. Of course your begpacker YouTuber is never making that, or even those that are don't want to pay to become legal. So please stop thinking options are not there, they are. There is not an option there at the moment here in Thailand. That is the main subject of this thread. If I were to teach online I, currently anyway, cannot go to Labour office and ask for a work permit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 15 hours ago, scorecard said: "I imagine it is a complex issue but my understanding differs. If the teacher is working for an offshore registered entity, is not teaching Thai students in Thailand, and the money is not being paid in to a Thai bank account then it is likely not deemed as working in Thailand. ......" Suggest you read the definition of working in the appropriate part of the Thai labor law. It's somewhat different to your analysis. We discovered that quite some time later. But there is no definitive answer as yet. The word of the law is only the half of it in Thailand. Possibly nuance will not be your strong point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 6 hours ago, pearciderman said: If that is what you can see, you need new glasses. Online work is breaking both Immigration and Labour law - no WP and working on a tourist visa, (for the most part). You could be forgiven for thinking so...it seems to be outside the law at this moment in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 3 hours ago, scorecard said: You're making a lot of convenient assumptions which are not what the appropriate Thai laws indicate. 'Freelance tutor' 'fees paid into offshore bank account' etc., doesn't change anything. The fact is you are physically in Thailand when you are doing it, therefore there are applicable Thai laws, as already mentioned at least 2 Thai laws are involved; WP laws and Visa laws. Theoretical! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 2 hours ago, youreavinalaff said: Why? Just asking how you know that everyone who works online does not pay tax. That aside, as you are still assuming it is black and white when it clearly isn't, it would be nice to think that the Thai authorities would realise there is money to be made here. They really should start to look at this in a positive way. Get a facility going where digital nomads can get the required work permit and then pay tax here in Thailand. If they go the other way then people will just move on to another country that is a bit more accommodating, as many of the ESL teachers have done already. Currently, online teaching work is being treated as outside the Thai jurisdiction. Now, that may change, but for now there really are no issues, except those imagined by some TV posters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 3 hours ago, scorecard said: You're making a lot of convenient assumptions which are not what the appropriate Thai laws indicate. 'Freelance tutor' 'fees paid into offshore bank account' etc., doesn't change anything. The fact is you are physically in Thailand when you are doing it, therefore there are applicable Thai laws, as already mentioned at least 2 Thai laws are involved; WP laws and Visa laws. Now you are making a lot of convenient assumptions. Adjudging whether someone online is working in Thailand is based on a number of factors: one of them is using Thai resources, another is length of stay, as you rightly point out. But scale, visibility, and what is actually being done and whether it effects Thailand seem to be guiding factors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorecard Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 1 hour ago, mommysboy said: Now you are making a lot of convenient assumptions. Adjudging whether someone online is working in Thailand is based on a number of factors: one of them is using Thai resources, another is length of stay, as you rightly point out. But scale, visibility, and what is actually being done and whether it effects Thailand seem to be guiding factors. " ....whether it effects Thailand seem to be guiding factors." Please support your comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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