Online Teaching

[MikeyIdea]

26 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Simplest way is to become a Thai citizen, which is much easier to do these days, then no work permit is required. If working for an American company, one pays tax there, not here due to a tax treaty.

I have legally worked for an American multi national company in Bangkok with consecutive work permit extensions for 21 years now, still do, I pay Thai taxes and always have. Paying American taxes only apply if you are an American citizen

[mommysboy]

If pressed for a simple answer:  I would say not illegal, maybe unlawful, and if it is then it is certainly not enforced.

 

 

I would also say that in small matters, the local immigration is charged with interpreting the law and it basically makes a subjective decision taking in to account a number of variables: scale, location, family circumstances, length of stay, enforcability, and nature of work.  Two over-arching themes seem to be protecting the public, and protecting Thai jobs.  Work it out for yourself.

 

If one counts using the internet as consuming Thai resources, then technically it is indeed work, and you would need a permit, but given that there is no permit, and no Thai employer, then that would be rather a nonsense of a rule.

 

As one poster hinted- it's ok until someone high up says it isn't; this would be the time to worry.

 

And even the letter of the law can be not what it appears to be: if that were not the case then we would not have lawyers arguing opposite cases.

 

Black's Law Dictionary defines unlawful as not authorized by law, illegal. Illegal is defined as forbidden by law. Semantically, there is a slight difference. It seems that something illegal is expressly proscribed by statute, and something unlawful is just not expressly authorized.

 

Finally, if Thai police have a mind to prosecute they can misuse any law to do so, eg, vaping is not illegal in Thailand, so instead they prosecute for evasion of import taxes even if you bought it in Thailand.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2018 by mommysboy

[mommysboy]

12 minutes ago, MikeyIdea said:

I have legally worked for an American multi national company in Bangkok with consecutive work permit extensions for 21 years now, still do, I pay Thai taxes and always have. Paying American taxes only apply if you are an American citizen

Yes, but your company has an office in Thailand and this is very much within the scope of both general and tax law.

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, SlyAnimal said:

https://www.chiangraitimes.com/17-foreigners-arrested-in-chiang-mai-for-teaching-english-online.html

Does the above article perhaps answer everyone’s questions on the legality of teaching online?

They were teaching from an office, Not from home, but even the teachers with work permits were arrested as their work permits related to teaching at schools not online.

Doing it from home you’re unlikely to get caught, just like you’re unlikely to get caught vaping at home or going out in public with no underwear but it’s illegal and the police can arrest you for it.

As for whether you should do it or not, that slim chance of being caught committing a crime that no one knows about and no one cares about.... it’s a possibility.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Although I pretty much agree with you, I really don't think that typical online teaching- from home teaching Chinese student- is even regarded as unlawful.

 

I whole heartedly agree with the point about visibility.  

[Happy Grumpy]

2 hours ago, duanebigsby said:

If you try to pay tax here without a work permit it might bite you on the ass. 

 

Nope.

 

Nothing wrong with paying tax here without a WP.

 

Those with rental income from condos, those making money from stock trading, those working remotely for non-Thai companies that have no connection to Thailand (ie, those employed remotely by non-Thai companies as online teachers to non-Thais) just get a Tax number, pay the tax. Fully legal.

 

That's if they are being paid into Thai bank accounts. If paid into an account in their home country, pay tax there.

 

Cheers. 

[Happy Grumpy]

2 hours ago, MikeyIdea said:

The Alien Employment Act or whatever replaces it lists out a number of exceptions but you must have a work permit to work in Thailand in any other profession if you (as where your body is) are in Thailand when doing it, internet or otherwise

Yup.

 

It covers those working or doing business with Thai companies/companies in Thailand.

 

Those employed remotely by non-Thai companies with no connection to anything Thai are not under the Thai employment Act.

 

 

Have a visa that doesn't exhibit work - a Non-Imm visa.

Get a Thai tax number and pay tax if the money is coming into Thailand. No need for a WP for that, as those whose source of income doesn't come from anything under the Thai Employment Act doesn't need a WP, but will need to pay tax if the money is coming directly into Thailand.

 

Done.

 

Cheers. 

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, MikeyIdea said:

I have legally worked for an American multi national company in Bangkok with consecutive work permit extensions for 21 years now, still do, I pay Thai taxes and always have. Paying American taxes only apply if you are an American citizen

Not true, I work for a large US company, I'm British, and just filled in my  W8BEN form, for non yanks.

There is a tax treaty between the countries. 

[Happy Grumpy]

56 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

your company has an office in Thailand and this is very much within the scope of both general and tax law.

Absolutely.

 

The Employment act covers Aliens employed here. Not those employed remotely that are here.

 

Non-Imm visa.

Tax number if paid into Thailand.

 

Cheers. 

[Johnniey]

5 hours ago, pearciderman said:

 

The ONLY thing that matters is where YOU are, not the company, client or taxes paid.

 

If YOU are in Thailand working in any capacity, (and that can mean virtually anything according to the law), then you must have a work permit.

 

Bar room lawyers who tell you any different, are wrong.

Yeah like all the guys that say they can't paint their house or cut their hedge - nonsense. 

This is Thailand, not some nanny state. There are ways obstacles are overcome here, very different to developed countries.

[MikeyIdea]

11 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Not true, I work for a large US company, I'm British, and just filled in my  W8BEN form, for non yanks.

There is a tax treaty between the countries. 

Strange, we've had foreigners from all over the world working for the American Fortune 500 company I work for in Bangkok and all of them have been paid in Thailand and paid tax in Thailand. I have done 21 pnd 91 for that company and PWC regularly audits our payroll

 

No idea except I'm pretty sure that PWC wouldn't have missed a yellow audit for 21 years :)  

[youreavinalaff]

4 hours ago, SlyAnimal said:

https://www.chiangraitimes.com/17-foreigners-arrested-in-chiang-mai-for-teaching-english-online.html

Does the above article perhaps answer everyone’s questions on the legality of teaching online?

They were teaching from an office, Not from home, but even the teachers with work permits were arrested as their work permits related to teaching at schools not online.

Doing it from home you’re unlikely to get caught, just like you’re unlikely to get caught vaping at home or going out in public with no underwear but it’s illegal and the police can arrest you for it.

As for whether you should do it or not, that slim chance of being caught committing a crime that no one knows about and no one cares about.... it’s a possibility.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That is not a good example to use. They were working for a Thai and getting paid in Thai baht from a Thai person. Different kettle of fish.

[Happy Grumpy]

7 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

They were working for a Thai and getting paid in Thai baht from a Thai person. Different kettle of fish.

 

And that's what it's all about.

 

Physically employed in Thailand, comes under the Employment Act. 

Remotely employed doesn't.

 

You will need to:

 

Pay the tax in Thailand, if the income comes to Thailand directly. No WP is needed to get a Thai Tax number and to pay the tax here, as those with incomes that are not employed here - condo owners, traders, those employed remotely, don't fall under that act where a WP is required. 

 

And a visa that does not prohibit remote employment (a non-imm visa). 

 

Cheers. 

[Loaded]

5 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

That is not a good example to use. They were working for a Thai and getting paid in Thai baht from a Thai person. Different kettle of fish.

Not quite true. It was a Chinese company. Let's just say that it began with abc. They were being paid by the alphabet company full circle from China. They were brazenly ignoring Immigration, Labor and Revenue department laws. They were caught.

 

You people working from your laptop are next 555

[Happy Grumpy]

^ If you are employed in Thailand, make sure that you have a WP, non-Imm visa and pay tax.

 

If you are employed remotely and are here, make sure that you have a non-Imm visa (that doesn't prohibit work) and that you pay tax in whatever country the money is paid into (If Thailand, get a Thai Tax Number and pay the tax to the Thai revenue department - No WP needed to register and pay tax here as an alien.)

 

Simple, really.

 

Cheers. 

Edited April 23, 2018 by Happy Grumpy

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, Loaded said:

Not quite true. It was a Chinese company. Let's just say that it began with abc. They were being paid by the alphabet company full circle from China. They were brazenly ignoring Immigration, Labor and Revenue department laws. They were caught.

 

You people working from your laptop are next 555

In this instance they are quite clearly breaking the law because they have offices/premises in Thailand in which people come to work.  The business must comply with Thai laws, and the employees are working illegally if they do not have the correct visa and accompanying work permit.

 

But there is a clear contrast between this and the typical online teacher. 

 

 

[mommysboy]

I thi nk this is worth a repeat posting  Loaded just won't accept it, but I think most people will nod their head and agree that this is indeed what is actually happening in reality :http://www.chiangmailocator.com/wiki-can-digital-nomads-legally-work-in-thailand-p177

 

This is the most relevant section as it applies to the discussion at hand:

4. A foreigner sits in his apartment in Chiang Mai and teaches Chinese students online via Skype.

The verdict: " Officially, work, however it is not a main concern to our office now, so we allow the foreigner to do this without a work permit. "

This verdict considers the scale of the work and the environment.

 

Note how it differs from point 5.

 

It was suggested by someone that only Skype is tolerated, however, that is just not credible imho.

[Happy Grumpy]

45 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Loaded just won't accept it

But who is Loaded to accept it or not? 

 

 

I'm guessing he didn't pass the interview at VIP ABC KIDS dot com 5555

[pearciderman]

6 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Officially, work, however it is not a main concern to our office now, so we allow the foreigner to do this without a work permit. 

 

So online teaching IS officially work and requires a WP.

 

Just because some government employee says it is not their main concern, does not make it legal !

[Happy Grumpy]

1 hour ago, pearciderman said:

So online teaching IS officially work and requires a WP.

Nope. If employed locally (in Thailand), then yes.

 

If employed remotely: 

 

It officially requires those remotely employed to have a visa that doesn't prohibit work (such as a non-Imm), and to pay tax to the Thai Revenue Department, if paid into Thailand.

 

No need for a WP to get a Thai tax number and to pay tax.

 

Cheers.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Happy Grumpy

[pearciderman]

8 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

Nope. If employed locally (in Thailand), then yes.

 

If employed remotely: 

 

It officially requires those remotely employed to have a visa that doesn't prohibit work (such as a non-Imm), and to pay tax to the Thai Revenue Department, if paid into Thailand.

 

No need for a WP to get a Thai tax number and to pay tax.

 

Cheers.

 

You must be reading a different article to me. The official only talks about working online, no mention of Thai employer or taxes.

 

He clearly states that working online is "work" and as such requires a WP.

[Loaded]

Reality

If you are caught teaching online, you'll be arrested and deported if you don't have a non-immigrant visa and work permit. You've read the report and seen the photos. It's nothing to do with where they were working in Thailand it's all to do with laws related to foreigners working here.

 

Fantasy and denial

Digital Gonad blogs telling you you don't need to worry.

[Happy Grumpy]

Employed in Thailand - WP, non-imm visa, tax.

Employed remotely, and in Thailand - non-imm visa, tax in the country you're paid into.

 

Cheers. 

[Happy Grumpy]

1 minute ago, Loaded said:

If you are caught teaching online, you'll be arrested and deported if you don't have a non-immigrant visa and work permit.

 

If employed here.

 

If employed remotely, non-imm visa and tax if paid into a Thai account.

 

Cheers. 

[Loaded]

41 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

 

If employed here.

 

If employed remotely, non-imm visa and tax if paid into a Thai account.

 

Cheers. 

So UK immigration, employment and taxation laws also wouldn't apply to a Nigerian working remotely via the Internet from their council flat in London because his 'income' is deposited into a bank account in the Cayman Islands?

 

You're a funny guy.

 

I guess you would also argue that because he hasn't been caught yet, there's official tolerance for this type of behaviour.

 

You're a very funny guy.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Loaded

[Happy Grumpy]

UK immigration?? 

 

 

Oh, okay. 

 

Cheers.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Happy Grumpy

[Loaded]

47 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

UK immigration?? 

 

 

Oh, okay. 

 

Cheers.

yes - an example for simpletons of how laws work in a context that they might understand. Only someone in complete denial living in Thailand would think they work differently here.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Loaded

[Happy Grumpy]

Err... okay.

 

 

Btw, Thai immigration already moved to accommodate remote workers a few years, when they removed 'Employment Prohibited' from non-imm visas. So remote employees don't infringe on any immigration laws, once they have a non-imm visa. 

 

Cheers. 

[mommysboy]

4 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

Err... okay.

 

 

Btw, Thai immigration already moved to accommodate remote workers a few years, when they removed 'Employment Prohibited' from non-imm visas. So remote employees don't infringe on any immigration laws, once they have a non-imm visa. 

 

Cheers. 

 Yes.

 

we allow the foreigner to do this without a work permit. "

 

Just which part of this do the naysayers not understand ?

 

 

[Happy Grumpy]

They seem to confuse being employed in Thailand, with being employed remotely, while being in Thailand.

 

The first, one will need a WP, a non-Imm visa and pay tax.

The second, one will need a non-imm visa and pay tax if the income comes directly to a Thai account.

 

Cheers. 

[duanebigsby]

8 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

They seem to confuse being employed in Thailand, with being employed remotely, while being in Thailand.

 

The first, one will need a WP, a non-Imm visa and pay tax.

The second, one will need a non-imm visa and pay tax if the income comes directly to a Thai account.

 

Cheers. 

Well, you will never convince Loaded