‘Prayut creating network of allies’ to remain as PM

[robblok]

47 minutes ago, heybruce said:

"I only accept I was wrong to think the junta would stay short.. this was unlike any other coup before they always left around a year later."

 

Really?

 

From 1958 to 1991 all Prime Ministers were military men who came to power by coups, were replacement Prime Ministers appointed by the military, or were "government" appointed Prime Ministers with the consent of the military.

 

The military appointed a Prime Minister to its liking after the 2006 coup, but when the 2008 elections resulted in a Prime Minister it didn't like, it engineered two years of Abhisit rule and kept him in power with a bloody crackdown on protesters calling for elections.

 

Funny how some people defend a military that stages coups to accommodate protesters opposing elections, and fires bullets into protesters calling for elections.  The amnesty bill you cite as the prompt for the 2013-2014 protests was quickly dropped.  After that the protest were all about toppling an elected government and preventing new elections.

 

Fun fact; the only elected Prime Minister in Thailand's history who was allowed to finish his term in elected office was Thaksin Shinawatra. 

 

The current military government wrote a constitution and had it "approved" in a sham referendum that it hopes will leave it in control behind a veneer of powerless elected government. However if it feels it is losing control it will stage another coup, with the help of the privileged elite and Bangkok middle class that fear losing political and economic power in a democratic government.

 

 

 

The amnesty bill could have easily been revived and given how it secretly appeared between readings nobody really trusted YL she had her chance the people deposed of her. Its funny how you can support one side trying to depose a prime minister and not an other side. 

 

The only reason I had more problems with the other street protests as opposed to the more peaceful yellow protests was the violence that the reds brought.  Almost everyone agrees the reds are far more violent (we just don't agree why).

 

Previous coup governments stayed in power not that long, we are talking about recent memory not decades ago. There was no reason to believe this would take longer then a year. 

 

Point remains without the amnesty the coup would not have been so easily accomplished. It was their own fault we ended up like this.

[jonstarjon]

Well he started his Reign of feeding the loyalist mouth with bullshit and then making them eat it. He stated quite clearly that the people he rules are too thick to have a vote. Then he told them that if they chose wrongly that he would pull the teeth of those who succeeded so that self harm was minimised until he had time to step back in. He's telegraphed every punch he has ready for all Thai free will.. You ordinary plebian unwashed have sucked it all up. He couldn't have been more provocatively more honest and still all Thai people have sucked it up. I can't honestly say that there is a group of people more deserved of this treatment in the universe than the great saffron sheep of this country. Go for it babies and good luck to you all! I am really struggling to think of one real MAN in the whole of Thailand public life. All are dying by tiny steps shuffling their way to the great gas burners of historical humanity.

Have a great day

[Enoon]

27 minutes ago, jonstarjon said:

Well he started his Reign of feeding the loyalist mouth with bullshit and then making them eat it. He stated quite clearly that the people he rules are too thick to have a vote. Then he told them that if they chose wrongly that he would pull the teeth of those who succeeded so that self harm was minimised until he had time to step back in. He's telegraphed every punch he has ready for all Thai free will.. You ordinary plebian unwashed have sucked it all up. He couldn't have been more provocatively more honest and still all Thai people have sucked it up. I can't honestly say that there is a group of people more deserved of this treatment in the universe than the great saffron sheep of this country. Go for it babies and good luck to you all! I am really struggling to think of one real MAN in the whole of Thailand public life. All are dying by tiny steps shuffling their way to the great gas burners of historical humanity.

Have a great day

 

Outstanding vitriolic attack upon the general population.

 

When was the last time you took the risks that attempting to topple this (make no mistake, it's a new world in Thailand) brutal regime entails?

 

When it does finally kick off I hope you are around to share in the similar joys to those which currently engulf the Syrian people.

 

It's not something I wish upon the Thai people......far from it.

 

But, unfortunately, every time he opens his mouth the end result becomes increasingly obvious and (given the grotesque economic inequalities being fostered) inevitable.

 

 

Edited April 19, 2018 by Enoon

[tomta]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

I am quite bored with Prayut and his bunch, but it was the same for YL and her bunch.. neither group would ever accept criticism or change their policies after criticism.

Robblok, you remind me of a friend of mine. She dressed up with the flags and armbands and blew her whistle for all she was worth. She's a nice woman and she really wants Thailand to get better but she has the naivete of all idealists. When I pointed out Suthep's history of corruption, she said that people can change. Now when I ask her about things, she says "I'm bored with politics". A hypocritical cop-out in my view.

 

As far as the ability to accept criticism goes, the ultimate test  is submitting yourself to an election : TRT has done that , Prayuth has not.

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, tomta said:

Robblok, you remind me of a friend of mine. She dressed up with the flags and armbands and blew her whistle for all she was worth. She's a nice woman and she really wants Thailand to get better but she has the naivete of all idealists. When I pointed out Suthep's history of corruption, she said that people can change. Now when I ask her about things, she says "I'm bored with politics". A hypocritical cop-out in my view.

 

As far as the ability to accept criticism goes, the ultimate test  is submitting yourself to an election : TRT has done that , Prayuth has not.

I disagree, accepting criticism means you accept it when the opposition tells you something. When I think YL I always think of the episode where the democrats came with rotting rice.. instead of addressing the problem the PTP wanted to accuse them of theft. 

 

That is no way you treat the opposition in a democracy. So on YL did not accept criticism. Remember she said no rotting rice.. no corruption in the rice program. We now know differently. Rotting rice.. 30+ billion in fake G2G deals. So in no way did she do anything with criticism or indications of corruption. (just in the same way the junta handles things.. ignoring them.. threatening ect)

 

Your ultimate test is nothing more then a popularity contest.. not submitting to criticism or following democratic standards.

Edited April 19, 2018 by robblok

[heybruce]

43 minutes ago, robblok said:

The amnesty bill could have easily been revived and given how it secretly appeared between readings nobody really trusted YL she had her chance the people deposed of her. Its funny how you can support one side trying to depose a prime minister and not an other side. 

 

The only reason I had more problems with the other street protests as opposed to the more peaceful yellow protests was the violence that the reds brought.  Almost everyone agrees the reds are far more violent (we just don't agree why).

 

Previous coup governments stayed in power not that long, we are talking about recent memory not decades ago. There was no reason to believe this would take longer then a year. 

 

Point remains without the amnesty the coup would not have been so easily accomplished. It was their own fault we ended up like this.

"The amnesty bill could have easily been revived" assumes the PTP government learned nothing from the failure of the first attempt and the people no longer watched for such things.  It also assumes a Thaksin influenced government would have remained in power after an election in which the voters were outraged by the amnesty bill and the failures of the rice program. 

 

In other words, you make some very questionably assumptions, which add up to the assumption that democratic government can't work.

 

Yes, protests against an unelected government and calling for elections were more violent than the protests against democracy and against elections.  The protests against democracy could count on the military to support them, those who wanted democracy could not.  Thailand's many coups since 1932 supports those who think drastic action is necessary to defend democracy.

 

Trying to understand Thailand's culture of military rule and coups without considering anything that happened before 2000 is foolish.

 

Point remains that elected governments make mistakes, and those mistakes should be dealt with by elections, not military coups.

[Enoon]

 

Re: The Coup.

 

Not much point in fighting yesterdays battle chaps.

 

Worry and prepare for tomorrows.

 

We're not looking (from a distance) at the rights and wrongs of the Peloponnesian or English Civil Wars.

 

It's a new playing field and the ball is moving now.

 

 

[JAG]

4 hours ago, starky said:

@robblok response will be something along the lines of ptp, Thaksin, Thaksin ptp, shins Thaksin I must get in the final word in Thaksin. 20 more posts per thread, I have always been correst, Thaksin. He says he hates both sides equally but I don't even think he is even aware of the obvious bias he has in his posts. Funnier still is he acts like posters on here who don't like the Junta vote for the PTP or somehow support Thaksin. You are wasting your breath.

Hey, give him a chance, he is trying out his new box of crayons...

[heybruce]

14 minutes ago, robblok said:

I disagree, accepting criticism means you accept it when the opposition tells you something. When I think YL I always think of the episode where the democrats came with rotting rice.. instead of addressing the problem the PTP wanted to accuse them of theft. 

 

That is no way you treat the opposition in a democracy. So on YL did not accept criticism. Remember she said no rotting rice.. no corruption in the rice program. We now know differently. Rotting rice.. 30+ billion in fake G2G deals. So in no way did she do anything with criticism or indications of corruption. (just in the same way the junta handles things.. ignoring them.. threatening ect)

 

Your ultimate test is nothing more then a popularity contest.. not submitting to criticism or following democratic standards.

How has Prayut been at accepting criticism?

 

Freedom of speech has always been restricted in Thailand.  However the junta took it to new levels by making it illegal to criticize the military government.

[heybruce]

2 minutes ago, Enoon said:

 

Re: The Coup.

 

Not much point in fighting yesterdays battle chaps.

 

Worry and prepare for tomorrows.

 

We're not looking (from a distance) at the rights and wrongs of the Peloponnesian or English Civil Wars.

 

It's a new playing field and the ball is moving now.

 

 

Noted, you don't think it's worthwhile to learn from the past.

 

Are you sure the ball is moving now?  Oh yeah, an election is promised next year.  Just as one was promised "next year" every year since the coup.

[robblok]

19 minutes ago, heybruce said:

How has Prayut been at accepting criticism?

 

Freedom of speech has always been restricted in Thailand.  However the junta took it to new levels by making it illegal to criticize the military government.

Just as bad, no argument there.

[robblok]

24 minutes ago, heybruce said:

"The amnesty bill could have easily been revived" assumes the PTP government learned nothing from the failure of the first attempt and the people no longer watched for such things.  It also assumes a Thaksin influenced government would have remained in power after an election in which the voters were outraged by the amnesty bill and the failures of the rice program. 

 

In other words, you make some very questionably assumptions, which add up to the assumption that democratic government can't work.

 

Yes, protests against an unelected government and calling for elections were more violent than the protests against democracy and against elections.  The protests against democracy could count on the military to support them, those who wanted democracy could not.  Thailand's many coups since 1932 supports those who think drastic action is necessary to defend democracy.

 

Trying to understand Thailand's culture of military rule and coups without considering anything that happened before 2000 is foolish.

 

Point remains that elected governments make mistakes, and those mistakes should be dealt with by elections, not military coups.

Those assumptions were not mine they were put int he newspapers of the time. I was not the only one thinking this way.

So not so far fetched if those assumptions made the newspapers.

 

Yes the reds certainly took drastic measures... drove into a peaceful crowd.. threw a few grenades shot some machine guns.. killed a few kids.. and then the news was received at a red meeting it was met by cheers (they did not know yet kids were killed but were aware of the violent attack). So yea they did took drastic actions.. not sure how attacking peaceful protesters who were far away from everyone helped to defend democracy but I am sure you can explain it to me.

 

Going back decades does not serve a purpose, previous recent military coups did not last long a year no more.. so no reason to expect any different this time around. Lets agree to disagree.

 

Point remains.. you got a warped view of what elections are for. Elections are not there to judge right or wrong or to correct mistakes. That is what laws are for and if a goverment tries to prevent investigations (like YL did into the rice program) other measures are needed. 

 

 

[robblok]

29 minutes ago, JAG said:

Hey, give him a chance, he is trying out his new box of crayons...

Thankfully I don't have to work with crayons in my day job like you. 

[heybruce]

7 minutes ago, robblok said:

Those assumptions were not mine they were put int he newspapers of the time. I was not the only one thinking this way.

So not so far fetched if those assumptions made the newspapers.

 

Yes the reds certainly took drastic measures... drove into a peaceful crowd.. threw a few grenades shot some machine guns.. killed a few kids.. and then the news was received at a red meeting it was met by cheers (they did not know yet kids were killed but were aware of the violent attack). So yea they did took drastic actions.. not sure how attacking peaceful protesters who were far away from everyone helped to defend democracy but I am sure you can explain it to me.

 

Going back decades does not serve a purpose, previous recent military coups did not last long a year no more.. so no reason to expect any different this time around. Lets agree to disagree.

 

Point remains.. you got a warped view of what elections are for. Elections are not there to judge right or wrong or to correct mistakes. That is what laws are for and if a goverment tries to prevent investigations (like YL did into the rice program) other measures are needed.

What you read in the newspapers were the opinions of people supporting the protests and opposing elected government.

 

You ignore the fact that the yellows were also killing people, and using violence and intimidation to prevent elections. Of course the biggest killer in these protests has always been the military.

 

Going back decades does not serve a purpose?  Really?  The events in your life before 2000 have no impact on the person you are now?  How old are you?  If the answer is 20 or less, you can rest assured that your view on learning from the past will change in the decades to come.

 

Elections are there to correct mistakes, and make new ones.  They are a peaceful option for changing governments that don't serve the interests of the people.  Courts exist to determine when illegal acts were committed and what the response should be.  The courts remove Yingluck from office, showing that the laws worked. 

 

However the courts could not prevent a legally called election and a new government chosen by the majority of voters.  That is what Suthep, the military, and the elite feared.  That is what the coup was for.  And that is what the next coup will be for, because I have not doubt that the majority of Thais will vote for politicians that promise to change this BS constitution, and the military will step in again.

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, heybruce said:

What you read in the newspapers were the opinions of people supporting the protests and opposing elected government.

 

You ignore the fact that the yellows were also killing people, and using violence and intimidation to prevent elections. Of course the biggest killer in these protests has always been the military.

 

Going back decades does not serve a purpose?  Really?  The events in your life before 2000 have no impact on the person you are now?  How old are you?  If the answer is 20 or less, you can rest assured that your view on learning from the past will change in the decades to come.

 

Elections are there to correct mistakes, and make new ones.  They are a peaceful option for changing governments that don't serve the interests of the people.  Courts exist to determine when illegal acts were committed and what the response should be.  The courts remove Yingluck from office, showing that the laws worked. 

 

However the courts could not prevent a legally called election and a new government chosen by the majority of voters.  That is what Suthep, the military, and the elite feared.  That is what the coup was for.  And that is what the next coup will be for, because I have not doubt that the majority of Thais will vote for politicians that promise to change this BS constitution, and the military will step in again.

Your opinions and my opinions don't match, I believe that the  Thaksin would have revived the amnesty. His ego is big enough for it.  Many others believed so too. You don't.. legs agree to disagree.

 

Going back decades serves no purpose in this case.. in This case the recent coups did not last that long. This was an exception Sure if you can go way back you can see something else but that does not mean much. Going by recent history the military was not going to stay long. No reason to doubt recent history. As for my age.. I wish i was 20 but I am 44. The choices i made in the last 10 years have had far more impact than those before. 

 

Its good we agree on what elections are for and that courts are indeed for punishing criminals like Ying Luck. But while she was in power she prevented a good investigation in the rice program. Only after she was removed could we see the huge scope of things 30 billion one of the largest corruption cases in recent history.  (unlike you I believe that had the PTP be in power during the investigation a lot would have stayed hidden)

 

I hope they get rid of the appointed senators, just like you I don't like them. I hope that there won't be any coups for a while and that the new parties will grow and don't become as corrupt as the current ones.

 

 

 

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, robblok said:

Your opinions and my opinions don't match, I believe that the  Thaksin would have revived the amnesty. His ego is big enough for it.  Many others believed so too. You don't.. legs agree to disagree.

 

Going back decades serves no purpose in this case.. in This case the recent coups did not last that long. This was an exception Sure if you can go way back you can see something else but that does not mean much. Going by recent history the military was not going to stay long. No reason to doubt recent history. As for my age.. I wish i was 20 but I am 44. The choices i made in the last 10 years have had far more impact than those before. 

 

Its good we agree on what elections are for and that courts are indeed for punishing criminals like Ying Luck. But while she was in power she prevented a good investigation in the rice program. Only after she was removed could we see the huge scope of things 30 billion one of the largest corruption cases in recent history.  (unlike you I believe that had the PTP be in power during the investigation a lot would have stayed hidden)

 

I hope they get rid of the appointed senators, just like you I don't like them. I hope that there won't be any coups for a while and that the new parties will grow and don't become as corrupt as the current ones.

" This case the recent coups did not last that long."

 

There have been only two military coups since 2000; one in which the military appointed a PM to their liking, allowed elections, didn't like the results, worked with government allies to arrange judicial coups of two PM's and arranged for Abhisit to rule.  After the second one they made it clear, in spite of their ongoing BS about "elections next year", that they were going to hold onto power until they could impose a system to their liking.

 

You are displaying stubborn, willful ignorance regarding the history that makes coups so common in Thailand.  Prayut belongs to the Eastern Tigers faction of the Thai army and, as a junior officer, was stationed near the border with Cambodia in the 1990's where they acquired considerable wealth illegally trading with the genocidal Khmer Rouge.  This was a time when the military ran Thailand and found it very profitable, and the junior officers, including Prayut and his band of usurpers, accepted this as the natural order of things.  The officers of the Eastern Tigers expected to use their illegally acquired wealth in Bangkok to acquire greater power and wealth (a Thai military tradition), however democracy was limiting their options.  Then we get into the events after 2000, which you maintain are independent of everything that happened before.

 

No matter how corrupt you think the Shinawatra's are, they don't compare to the Thia military.  Do you think General Manas was a fluke, the only Thai military officer involved in human trafficking?

 

Do you really believe that Prayut and the other senior officers did not shape their opinion of the military's proper role in Thai society during the above events?  Do you not think that the attitudes of the corrupt military in the 1990's were not shaped by decades of the Thai military being above the law and taking charge whenever it wished?

 

"I hope they get rid of the appointed senators, just like you I don't like them."

 

Any attempts to get rid of appointed senators and create a more democratic constitution will lead to another coup.  The military put this bogus constitution in place for a reason.

Edited April 19, 2018 by heybruce

[bangrak]

The herald of the war against corruption associating himself with 'the new feodality' of corrupt gangs controling whole provinces, in the exact same way as Voldemore Thaksin, the well known Newin raptor's tribe from the central plains, and, top of all, the Khamnan Po gang, the masters of Chonbury, he himself sentenced for years in jail for corruption, before being for many more as a murder mastermind, never slept ONE night in a cell, but at home in his bed, for years, before being 'caught' in an arranged mediatized op, to stay in a VIP appartment at the local hospital for some time, the two sons, nepotistically appointed at high official positions now (again, as they were under the Shins already, the one as head of Chonburi's provincial admin., the other as mayor of Pattaya), but, hey, they surely knew nothing about thir father's whereabouts, not a bit more than the corruption cases they were accused of too.

'Power corrupts, total power totally', but don't worry Mr Prayuth, tha-yen-yen, it's some time already you have no face to save anymore, so no reason to get excited, just do what dictators do, you have shown already this is the traditional attire cut to your measures.

Alas for the majority of silly people who were stupid enough to believe in you (as I did as a Farang), till you showed your real face (for me first with the KT murders). Pity for you, and him, you didn't find an arrangement with Thaksin in the end, you would have been the perfect diabolic duo to bleed Thailand to anemia for a generation (N.B.: did you keep the plot of prime land in the center of Yangon he offered you...?).

[robblok]

10 hours ago, heybruce said:

" This case the recent coups did not last that long."

 

There have been only two military coups since 2000; one in which the military appointed a PM to their liking, allowed elections, didn't like the results, worked with government allies to arrange judicial coups of two PM's and arranged for Abhisit to rule.  After the second one they made it clear, in spite of their ongoing BS about "elections next year", that they were going to hold onto power until they could impose a system to their liking.

 

You are displaying stubborn, willful ignorance regarding the history that makes coups so common in Thailand.  Prayut belongs to the Eastern Tigers faction of the Thai army and, as a junior officer, was stationed near the border with Cambodia in the 1990's where they acquired considerable wealth illegally trading with the genocidal Khmer Rouge.  This was a time when the military ran Thailand and found it very profitable, and the junior officers, including Prayut and his band of usurpers, accepted this as the natural order of things.  The officers of the Eastern Tigers expected to use their illegally acquired wealth in Bangkok to acquire greater power and wealth (a Thai military tradition), however democracy was limiting their options.  Then we get into the events after 2000, which you maintain are independent of everything that happened before.

 

No matter how corrupt you think the Shinawatra's are, they don't compare to the Thia military.  Do you think General Manas was a fluke, the only Thai military officer involved in human trafficking?

 

Do you really believe that Prayut and the other senior officers did not shape their opinion of the military's proper role in Thai society during the above events?  Do you not think that the attitudes of the corrupt military in the 1990's were not shaped by decades of the Thai military being above the law and taking charge whenever it wished?

 

"I hope they get rid of the appointed senators, just like you I don't like them."

 

Any attempts to get rid of appointed senators and create a more democratic constitution will lead to another coup.  The military put this bogus constitution in place for a reason.

Bruce,

 

You have absolutely NO proof about the corruption of the army or how large it is while I on the other hand have figures on Thaksin. The 33 billion is for sure the largest corruption case in the last 10-15 years (that is uncovered). If you can give me any proof of your claims, because they are based on hot air without any facts to back them up I will consider them. 

 

I certainly don't believe the army is without corruption, Prawit has proven that IMHO. But you have never given any figures or proof to back your claims up. So how can you say the army is more corrupt if you have no figures. Just look at the current corruption scandals the are in the 100's of millions not 33 billion (that is 1 billion U$ in fake G2G) trades nothing even comes close to that what I have read about in newspapers. So please back your claims up and we can discuss it or otherwise you have no proof at all. 

 

Even the coup in 1991 did not last as long.. so since 1991 coups did not last long that is in the last 25 years they all lasted 1-2 years not 4 like this one. So in I was right that in recent history coups did not last long, and it was certainly not a strange thing to expect something similar.

 

You always tell me not to speculate but yous speculate a lot yourself.. stating that if they get rid of the appointed senators a coup will follow. I disagree. 

 

 

[stephen tracy]

Just now, robblok said:

Bruce,

 

You have absolutely NO proof about the corruption of the army or how large it is while I on the other hand have figures on Thaksin. The 33 billion is for sure the largest corruption case in the last 10-15 years (that is uncovered). If you can give me any proof of your claims, because they are based on hot air without any facts to back them up I will consider them. 

 

I certainly don't believe the army is without corruption, Prawit has proven that IMHO. But you have never given any figures or proof to back your claims up. So how can you say the army is more corrupt if you have no figures. Just look at the current corruption scandals the are in the 100's of millions not 33 billion (that is 1 billion U$ in fake G2G) trades nothing even comes close to that what I have read about in newspapers. So please back your claims up and we can discuss it or otherwise you have no proof at all. 

 

Even the coup in 1991 did not last as long.. so since 1991 coups did not last long that is in the last 25 years they all lasted 1-2 years not 4 like this one. So in I was right that in recent history coups did not last long, and it was certainly not a strange thing to expect something similar.

 

You always tell me not to speculate but yous speculate a lot yourself.. stating that if they get rid of the appointed senators a coup will follow. I disagree. 

 

 

"heybruce" is absolutely correct. I think you miss the bigger picture because of your fixation with the Shins. The military and the Amart they serve own Thailand. They see it as their personal possession and their right and they absolutely cannot tolerate someone like Thaksin or anyone else challenging them. This is why there is no such thing as corruption amongst them in their eyes. After all, how can one steal from what one views as their own personal possession? The situation is exactly the same in Egypt. Exactly the same. No different in that respect. The never ending coups in Thailand are not a coincidence. They have always been staged for one reason and one reason alone, and that is to prevent - at all costs - democracy taking root in Thailand and the sharing of power.  

[robblok]

12 minutes ago, stephen tracy said:

"heybruce" is absolutely correct. I think you miss the bigger picture because of your fixation with the Shins. The military and the Amart they serve own Thailand. They see it as their personal possession and their right and they absolutely cannot tolerate someone like Thaksin or anyone else challenging them. This is why there is no such thing as corruption amongst them in their eyes. After all, how can one steal from what one views as their own personal possession? The situation is exactly the same in Egypt. Exactly the same. No different in that respect. The never ending coups in Thailand are not a coincidence. They have always been staged for one reason and one reason alone, and that is to prevent - at all costs - democracy taking root in Thailand and the sharing of power.  

If you say heybruce is right back it  up with facts.. 

 

Show me corruption cases of the army that amount to more as 33 billion baht... 

Show me coups lasting longer then 1-2 years in recent memory (so far since the 1990's i havent found any lasting as long as the current one).

 

I am NOT saying the army is not corrupt.. I am saying the Shins so far hold the medal for being the most corrupt as there is no case that I remember (please show me if im wrong) that goes over the 33 billion that was proven in court recently.

 

You guys can say .. we THINK the army is more corrupt.. but have no real proof to back it up.  How can you hold a debate when the one your debating with makes statements without any back up while I back my statements up.

 

The army is bad for sure and I don't want them in power, they are sure to be corrupt.. but I haven't seen anything comes close to the 33 billion.The current corruption scandals in schools, welfare and so on only amount to hundreds of millions, the corruption in the rice program was at least 30 times bigger. (given the numbers available)

[JAG]

18 minutes ago, robblok said:

You have absolutely NO proof about the corruption of the army or how large it is while I on the other hand have figures on Thaksin. The 33 billion is for sure the largest corruption case in the last 10-15 years (that is uncovered). If you can give me any proof of your claims, because they are based on hot air without any facts to back them up I will consider them. 

1

Have you considered that the "figures" on Thaksin are available precisely because they are the figures which the regime wish to be in the public domain, and which the regime has released?

 

Conversely, have you considered that there is no proof of the armies corruption precisely because the regime has steadfastly prevented such proof (figures) becoming available, either directly when it or its' precursors were in power, or by the open threat of a coup when an elected government was in power?

 

Allegations or claims of corruption within the military " are based on hot air without any facts to back them up" takes several packing cases of biscuits as possibly the most dogmatic and naive assertion ever posted on this forum!

 

 

[robblok]

Just now, JAG said:

Have you considered that the "figures" on Thaksin are available precisely because they are the figures which the regime wish to be in the public domain, and which the regime has released?

 

Conversely, have you considered that there is no proof of the armies corruption precisely because the regime has steadfastly prevented such proof (figures) becoming available, either directly when it or its' precursors were in power, or by the open threat of a coup when an elected government was in power?

 

Allegations or claims of corruption within the military " are based on hot air without any facts to back them up" takes several packing cases of biscuits as possibly the most dogmatic and naive assertion ever posted on this forum!

 

 

JAG,

 

Have you considered that I am only taking about the corruption of the PTP that became available not what hey have hidden (think of the tablet projects and others). Just like with the army not all corruption is discovered and prosecuted. It works two ways and so far I havent seen anything from the army coming close. 

 

You seem to think that the PTP has not hidden its corruption.. if this is what has surfaced imagine how much has stayed hidden (road constructions ect). The same goes to the army maybe more stays hidden but still there is no proof. So you can claim all you want but you just back it up. How can you debate when you can't backup your claims. You just cant.

 

What if i were to state without any proof i suspect the Shins of having 1000x time corruption as the army without any proof you would laugh at me and call me crazy.. (and rightly so as I could not back it up). Now that is exactly what your doing stating something without any proof and then stating it all stayed hidden. 

 

The only reason this corruption was so accurately proven is because it was easy to prove with the fake G2G deals.. so nothing secret about it hard facts. 

 

 

 

 

[Eric Loh]

It is laughable to think that we can hold the Thai military accountable for all the corruptions and crimes. How much corruptions, we don't know but we can assume that it is hell of a lot as they held governments longer than elected governments and have their dirty paws in the tilt longer and thwarted any attempts to expose them with intimidation and death in the cells. 

 

The longest period military governments held office was from 1976 to 1986 with a mixed of counter coups and pseudo elections. The Shins were corrupted but putting that into perspective of 86 years since 1932, their participation was but a fraction compare to the military continuous seizing of power and corruptions.  

[JAG]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

JAG,

 

Have you considered that I am only taking about the corruption of the PTP that became available not what hey have hidden (think of the tablet projects and others). Just like with the army not all corruption is discovered and prosecuted. It works two ways and so far I havent seen anything from the army coming close. 

 

You seem to think that the PTP has not hidden its corruption.. if this is what has surfaced imagine how much has stayed hidden (road constructions ect). The same goes to the army maybe more stays hidden but still there is no proof. So you can claim all you want but you just back it up. How can you debate when you can't backup your claims. You just cant.

 

What if i were to state without any proof i suspect the Shins of having 1000x time corruption as the army without any proof you would laugh at me and call me crazy.. (and rightly so as I could not back it up). Now that is exactly what your doing stating something without any proof and then stating it all stayed hidden. 

 

The only reason this corruption was so accurately proven is because it was easy to prove with the fake G2G deals.. so nothing secret about it hard facts. 

 

 

 

 

Oh dear, read my post again won't you. Nowhere, absolutely nowhere, did I suggest that Tha Shinawatras hid corruption. What I did suggest that the military did...

 

As for"how can I debate", well that is rich, coming from someone who seizes upon one point,( in this case it seems the G2G rice deal), and then bangs on about it endlessly, ignoring or dismissing anything anyone should say on the wider subject. That is not debate- rather it is just shouting at us until, as I often do, and it seems many others do, we just get fed up to the back teeth with your dogged attempts to monopolize discussion, and give up and go and do something else.

[manchega]

i guess this means it will be one of those undemocratic votes , ones that don't invovle citizens voting...

 

I still have in my mind that photo of mussolini and mitress

[robblok]

Just now, JAG said:

Oh dear, read my post again won't you. Nowhere, absolutely nowhere, did I suggest that Tha Shinawatras hid corruption. What I did suggest that the military did...

 

As for"how can I debate", well that is rich, coming from someone who seizes upon one point,( in this case it seems the G2G rice deal), and then bangs on about it endlessly, ignoring or dismissing anything anyone should say on the wider subject. That is not debate- rather it is just shouting at us until, as I often do, and it seems many others do, we just get fed up to the back teeth with your dogged attempts to monopolize discussion, and give up and go and do something else.

JAG,

 

You should read better or understand better.. you claim the military is hiding their corruption. I am saying Thaksin is doing the same and only part of it got out so the 33 billion that I got proof of is only part of the Shin corruption the real amount is probably much higher. But just like you (and the military corruption) I can't prove it.

 

Why do I bang on about the 33 billion, because its something that is a fact, i like using facts when i discuss. When we do as you do say something without proof (military corruption is much higher according to you with no backup), then you can't have a discussion because there is no proof. 

 

I did not seize on one point someone said, i was wrong about the fact that the military only kept power shortly in recent history i went back to the 1990's to prove that point and nobody argued about that anymore. You guys seem to never really use facts in the discussion. 

 

Discussing things without backing it up by facts is like discussing food useless because everyone has different tastes (bias).

 

You can give up whenever you want JAG i just have more time and more will to discuss such things, I could of course let you guys have a circle jerk and going on about how bad the military is and how good Thaksin is without any discussion at all. If that is what you want so be it because I get a bit bored about this too. 

 

You guys have your views and I have my views.. I have changed my views considerable.. to anti junta but you guys keep defending Thaksin as much as before refusing to accept the PTP and military are both bad.

 

Constantly saying... elections are there to sort things out.. while elections are just a popularity contest and not used to judge corruption. We got courts for that. YL did her best to hide the rice program its corruption did her own investigation.. tried to scare the democrats away intimidate them (just like the junta does) and the only reason they could really investigate it because she was disposed and the PTP had no longer power to stop the investigation. I don't believe (yes speculation on my side) that a good investigation could be done as long as the PTP was in power. I seen it before only when those in power are gone can investigations be done. 

 

In this topic i pointed out that before the crooks that now support the junta first supported the PTP.. if that is not a sign that both sides are evil I don't know what is. But instead of accepting that the PTP used this crooks too deflection after deflection. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[robblok]

29 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

It is laughable to think that we can hold the Thai military accountable for all the corruptions and crimes. How much corruptions, we don't know but we can assume that it is hell of a lot as they held governments longer than elected governments and have their dirty paws in the tilt longer and thwarted any attempts to expose them with intimidation and death in the cells. 

 

The longest period military governments held office was from 1976 to 1986 with a mixed of counter coups and pseudo elections. The Shins were corrupted but putting that into perspective of 86 years since 1932, their participation was but a fraction compare to the military continuous seizing of power and corruptions.  

No unfortunately we can't hold the military accountable... would be nice as I want everyone who is corrupt to be punished. Like you said we don't know we can only assume and assumptions don't hold up against real facts. You have your bias against the army.. rightly so but you can't state anything just assume.

 

The longest periode of military government is ancient history not recent history. Since that time coups have been far shorter lived and I had no reason to suspect otherwise.  IMHO a year of junta rule would have been worth it to get to the bottom of the rice program. 33 billion highest corruption amount in recent history that is not something to go over lightly ( i have looked but havent fount anything that comes close) . Do I think now that 4 years of junta are worth it.... I am not so sure anymore this is far too long and the junta is corrupt too, arrogant too. 

 

I just hope the new parties can do something because PTP has failed and is utterly corrupt, Junta is the same, democrats can't get enough votes and are corrupt too.

[manchega]

16 minutes ago, robblok said:

JAG,

 

You should read better or understand better.. you claim the military is hiding their corruption. I am saying Thaksin is doing the same and only part of it got out so the 33 billion that I got proof of is only part of the Shin corruption the real amount is probably much higher. But just like you (and the military corruption) I can't prove it.

 

Why do I bang on about the 33 billion, because its something that is a fact, i like using facts when i discuss. When we do as you do say something without proof (military corruption is much higher according to you with no backup), then you can't have a discussion because there is no proof. 

 

I did not seize on one point someone said, i was wrong about the fact that the military only kept power shortly in recent history i went back to the 1990's to prove that point and nobody argued about that anymore. You guys seem to never really use facts in the discussion. 

 

Discussing things without backing it up by facts is like discussing food useless because everyone has different tastes (bias).

 

You can give up whenever you want JAG i just have more time and more will to discuss such things, I could of course let you guys have a circle jerk and going on about how bad the military is and how good Thaksin is without any discussion at all. If that is what you want so be it because I get a bit bored about this too. 

 

You guys have your views and I have my views.. I have changed my views considerable.. to anti junta but you guys keep defending Thaksin as much as before refusing to accept the PTP and military are both bad.

 

Constantly saying... elections are there to sort things out.. while elections are just a popularity contest and not used to judge corruption. We got courts for that. YL did her best to hide the rice program its corruption did her own investigation.. tried to scare the democrats away intimidate them (just like the junta does) and the only reason they could really investigate it because she was disposed and the PTP had no longer power to stop the investigation. I don't believe (yes speculation on my side) that a good investigation could be done as long as the PTP was in power. I seen it before only when those in power are gone can investigations be done. 

 

In this topic i pointed out that before the crooks that now support the junta first supported the PTP.. if that is not a sign that both sides are evil I don't know what is. But instead of accepting that the PTP used this crooks too deflection after deflection. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have to agree with Jag here,  Shinawatra was just corrupt and not too worried about covering up.  Probably correct that just the tip of the iceburg.  but shinawatras done good for the people.

the military pretend to do good for people wouild speculate that many a former man in green is now very well off.   

 

difference is military are activly trying to hide it and covering up, against public demonstrations etc.  

[Eric Loh]

Rob, don't want to dwell on this subject too long as it is off topic and the moderator has rules on that. Want to end this subject by saying coups in any part of the world never have solved any political problems and mostly are carried out for self serving agenda. No different here especially coup government with tainted corruption, nepotism and cronyism and connection to the rightest elites. The power of empowered citizens to decide and rid corrupt government through election has universal acceptance; not coup. As for Thailand, politics with new or old parties will continue to be obstructed by the evil twins of the military and rightest elites for a long time. 

[robblok]

11 minutes ago, manchega said:

I have to agree with Jag here,  Shinawatra was just corrupt and not too worried about covering up.  Probably correct that just the tip of the iceburg.  but shinawatras done good for the people.

the military pretend to do good for people wouild speculate that many a former man in green is now very well off.   

 

difference is military are activly trying to hide it and covering up, against public demonstrations etc.  

Your naive if you think Thaksin did not cover his corruption up. He did / does that just like the army does. More is uncovered as its more public as the armies spending.

 

The military is corrupt too.. I would not deny that but you can't say without any backup that the army is more corrupt. 

 

I am not sure if you missed the rice scam, but its a prime example of how the PTP used the same things the army uses now. They threatened the Democrats that came with rotting rice with jail, they threatened and tried to fire the government offical that came out saying there was corruption. Then YL held a secret investigation (about as credible as the watch investigation of the NACC) of the rice program and when done claimed no corruption in the rice program. Guess what one of the biggest (monetary value) corruption got uncovered by fake G2G deals. So the Shins and the army both do the same things, only difference is the army has a bit more power but if the Shins had more power they would do the same as demonstrated by this example that has been proven in court.

 

My point is that I think both army and Shins are equally bad while people here keep defending the Shins.

 

People are here commenting on how bad it is that these crooks now support the army.. while they were first supporting the Shins.. Why condemn the one and not the other for being in bed with criminals ?

 

Not saying the democrats are much better.. whole of Thai politics is one big bad corrupt mess. I just hope out for the new parties.. hopefully something changes.