SURVEY: Cryptocurrency--would you invest?

[denby45]

On 4/22/2018 at 11:44 AM, baansgr said:

Gold is an asset......any crypto is nothing, it has no nett worth, it dosnt exist....thats the difference. 

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but sorry you are wrong. An asset becomes an asset when someone is prepared to pay money for it. Just like gold, fine wine and paintings etc. It's worth what someone will pay. Is it a God given gift just for you to decide that everyone should pay zip for bitcoin. I don't think so. Bitcoin is not going away, live with it.

 

Den

[Craig krup]

To anyone commenting on this: "You're wasting your time"!!!!

 

Read Charles Mackay's "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds". There's nothing you can say. I threw away a lot of time 2000-2007 trying to talk sense into people apropos house prices. Let me tell you, if you take the time to explain the economist's notion of "substitute goods", and its relevance to house prices, you're peeing in the wind. Try to get a cryptocurrency bozo to understand the idea of legal tender, and the importance of central banks' commitment to price stability, and their eyes glaze over. They'll tell you about "fiat currency", with little bits of foam in the corner of their mouth. 

 

The other great read is Saul Bellow's "Seize the day". The world is awash with people like Wilkie. 

[ukrules]

27 minutes ago, Craig krup said:

To anyone commenting on this: "You're wasting your time"!!!!

 

Read Charles Mackay's "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds".

 

I wouldn't say that, I've downloaded the above book due to your post and I will read it in due course.

 

There are 'fanatical believers' in this whole crypto technology, they're the ones who will be left holding any bag if / when the whole thing finally collapses for the last time.

 

Until then there's a lot of money to be made by trading it.

 

Edited April 23, 2018 by ukrules

[Craig krup]

37 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

I wouldn't say that, I've downloaded the above book due to your post and I will read it in due course.

 

There are 'fanatical believers' in this whole crypto technology, they're the ones who will be left holding any bag if / when the whole thing finally collapses for the last time.

 

Until then there's a lot of money to be made by trading it.

 

That's called "The greater fool theory". If something climbs from zero to a million, falls to zero, and you can't know when it'll fall - which you can't - then your net gain is zero minus the house "vig" - the difference between buying and selling price, dealing charges, whatever.

 

Buy at $1,000 and say that it will probably go to $20,000, and definitely go to $13,000, and you won't be greedy, you'll get out at $10,000, and you're delusional. You don't know that it'll get to $1001, but you feel that it will!

 

Look at me breaking my own rules. To reiterate, there's nothing to be said. I received £1390 last Friday from Securities trust of Scotland. A bog standard investment paying me 3.7% a year in dividends, with lots of volatility. I must be a real moron, eh, giving up all those Bitcoin gains that I could have?

[alwaysrainsinUK]

Its like anything else investment related you need to buy whole sale not retail .........

 

Ive not bought stocks on the open market this yrs instead i buy thru certain corporate brokers who offer discounted placings usually 15-50% below mkt price or pre-ipos that come with risk of not listing for whatever reason but you are getting it at a very reduced rate, all ive ever taken have all listed ,you have to do your dd on them some have been not that great but some have returned 10 times  or indeed ICO (crypto)  last i took was K1 that 22 bagged .

         presently waiting on ARGO (crypto mining platform) to list on AIM in Uk i took it pre- ipo few mths back , i know they are raising Ipo money now at a significant premium thats many times over subscribed, this will be my last one. 

         Ive sold out of everything else and wont be returning to the Mkt until all the signs are there that good times are returning , infact i might just get more active in shorting from here valuations are to high and the world looks upside down.

 

 

 

 

[Craig krup]

The Barclay's Equity-Gilt Study: 150 years of reality. 

 

Cash - 0.8% return.

Bonds - 1.2% return.

Listed shares - 5.1% return.

 

To believe that the angle of your dangle coupled with a split-capital forward looking put option structure, predicated on a zero-dividend reconciliation at par blah blah blah blah is to believe that i) clever people (like Buffett) can't understand what you understand, and that ii) those giving you whatever it is for money are prepared to give away gains. Think about it. How likely is either of these things? 

 

"INVEST TODAY FOR A GUARANTEED 12% A YEAR FOR FIVE YEARS!!!!"

 

Mmmmmm. But money's cheap. Why don't you borrow at 3% and keep the difference? Why do you need me? 

 

Er, well, er, those stupid people at the investment banks and finance houses can't understand the unique benefits....

 

Okay. Neither can I. 

[Monomial]

6 hours ago, Craig krup said:

To anyone commenting on this: "You're wasting your time"!!!!

 

Read Charles Mackay's "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds". There's nothing you can say. I threw away a lot of time 2000-2007 trying to talk sense into people apropos house prices. Let me tell you, if you take the time to explain the economist's notion of "substitute goods", and its relevance to house prices, you're peeing in the wind. Try to get a cryptocurrency bozo to understand the idea of legal tender, and the importance of central banks' commitment to price stability, and their eyes glaze over. They'll tell you about "fiat currency", with little bits of foam in the corner of their mouth. 

 

The other great read is Saul Bellow's "Seize the day". The world is awash with people like Wilkie. 

 

Anyone can frame a problem tightly constrained inside an existing myth, and then use that carefully constructed myth to denounce the problem.   You need to give up your notions of what currency needs to be in order to understand what is happening.

 

Cryptocurrency has the potential to add a new dimension to currency beyond simply being legal tender. Your argument is very akin to Henry Ford, who thought everyone could choose any color as long as it was black. Imminently logical, but completely ignorant of the realities of human psychology.

 

Unless you are willing to look beyond the aspects of a currency simply as legal tender, you will never understand the mindset of those who are embracing it. But you will eventually, because it will be forced on you. At some point when cryptocurrencies can be used as easily as today's fiat currencies, the human need for self expression will outweigh the economic ideologies of central banks and price stability. Just as the Model-T gave you basic transportation at an economic price point but failed anyway when confronted with abundant choice, traditional, central fiat currencies will be discarded in favor of the greater social aspects afforded by cryptos.

 

You don't have to take my word for it. You just need to wait 20 years and watch.

 

 

[bearpolar]

9 hours ago, baansgr said:

I have yet to find one single positive report on Cryptos apart from those that are involved and gain by charges etc, or from those that invested at the peak last year and invariably believe that talking something up makes it happen and of course lightens the feeling of loss. More bad news to come and the current crash of 60% is going to increase.....the poster enquiring about ripple should read todays news, thats skyfalling...again.

 

stay poor and uneducated then, why spread bullshit? Are you trying to make yourself feel better?

 

look at this from today:

https://modum.io/modum-announces-its-cooperation-with-swiss-post/

 

Swiss post is scamming everyone, they are using a crypto!!! you guys are hilarious.  I've probably made more  than you have in all your investments and bank account from that single company over the last few months, and i've cashed out tons and still own a lot. It's a dividend token, explain to me wheres the scam/ponzi?

Edited April 23, 2018 by bearpolar

[Jerico1]

I have and still will. It's risky but...

Sent from my LG-H845 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[denby45]

8 hours ago, Craig krup said:

To anyone commenting on this: "You're wasting your time"!!!!

 

Read Charles Mackay's "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds". There's nothing you can say. I threw away a lot of time 2000-2007 trying to talk sense into people apropos house prices. Let me tell you, if you take the time to explain the economist's notion of "substitute goods", and its relevance to house prices, you're peeing in the wind. Try to get a cryptocurrency bozo to understand the idea of legal tender, and the importance of central banks' commitment to price stability, and their eyes glaze over. They'll tell you about "fiat currency", with little bits of foam in the corner of their mouth. 

 

The other great read is Saul Bellow's "Seize the day". The world is awash with people like Wilkie. 

I do believe Charles Makay's book has been largely questioned by modern scholars. He appears to have exaggerated somewhat his findings which were mostly copied from pamphlets of the time which were produced with an anti-speculative agenda. Also the hysteria was rather limited to merchants and skilled craftsmen who were wealthy, but not members of the nobility and certainly not very smart. Today we have crypto's which appear to be endorsed by people who are either extremely smart or very very lucky. The Rothschilds, The Rockefellers, George Soros, Bill Gates Sir Richard Branson to name but a few. There are many many more who I consider to be much smarter than I. 

 

Just saying.

 

Den

 

 

 

[Craig krup]

2 hours ago, Monomial said:

 

"You need to give up your notions of what currency needs to be...Cryptocurrency has the potential to add a new dimension to currency beyond simply being legal tender....Unless you are willing to look beyond the aspects of a currency simply as legal tender, you will never understand the mindset of those who are embracing it...[T]he human need for self expression will outweigh the economic ideologies of central banks and price stability...W]hen confronted with abundant choice, traditional, central fiat currencies will be discarded in favor of the greater social aspects afforded by cryptos...

 

 

I have no idea what any of that means, but it has a fine ring about it. 

[bartender100]

When BTC gets to $100,000 people will still be saying "its a ponzi" or just sad they never got in early

 

Fact is crypts are here to stay, in 2/3 years your debit/credit cards will be run on the blockchain of one crypto or another, your Amazon, Apple and Google purchases will be using the same system

 

 http://bitcoinist.com/amazon-web-services-introduces-ethereum-and-hyperledger-blockchain-templates/

 

Ethereum is probably the coin to invest in, but at the moment all coins follow BTC up or down

 

 

"financial revolution"

 

https://www.koinalert.com/jp-morgan-banker/

 

 

 

[Craig krup]

23 minutes ago, denby45 said:

Today we have crypto's which appear to be endorsed by [t]he Rothschilds, The Rockefellers, George Soros, Bill Gates Sir Richard Branson to name but a few. There are many many more who I consider to be much smarter than I. 

I see little evidence for this, and little reason - if they're right - why they would be encouraging you to buy what (presumably) they wish to keep for themselves at the lowest possible entry price. 

 

Money is loaned into existence. The fundamental source is secured mortgage lending. Actual paper and coin is close to meaningless; certainly trivial. People would rather consume than produce. So borrowing has a price. You enter the real economy and produce goods and services, earning the interest rate and handing it over to the bank. If non-inflationary growth looks possible the price of money falls, and - should inflation increase - it rises. So-called "fiat" currencies are, therefore, secured on the productive capacity of the economies where they are legal tender, and they trade freely around the world, meaning that "purchasing power parity" considerations prevent shenanigans. 

 

But....whatever. Do as you please. 

[Craig krup]

2 minutes ago, bartender100 said:

When BTC gets to $100,000 people will still be saying "its a ponzi" or just sad they never got in early

 

If none but a fool would think otherwise why the f*** would anyone sell it to you for 9k today? I mean, really? Someone has enough faith to own it at all - they belong to that group - and they'd still take the 9k today than the $100,000? 

[seancbk]

2 hours ago, Monomial said:

You don't have to take my word for it. You just need to wait 20 years and watch.

 

And therein lies the problem for most of the members here.   

I have a 5 year investment plan, a 10 year plan and a 20 year plan.   

[Hummin]

7 hours ago, seancbk said:

 

And therein lies the problem for most of the members here.   

I have a 5 year investment plan, a 10 year plan and a 20 year plan.   

and who know what kind of block chain would be legal, and growing? Somone have to loose and some few will win yes, so I hold my cash close to my chest, and wait and see. I have enough for my life + safety, and do not need more than I have. So why would I gamble my retirement in a bubble? 

[seancbk]

2 hours ago, Hummin said:

and who know what kind of block chain would be legal, and growing? Somone have to loose and some few will win yes, so I hold my cash close to my chest, and wait and see. I have enough for my life + safety, and do not need more than I have. So why would I gamble my retirement in a bubble? 

 

Who says you have to gamble your retirement? 

Do you know who Tim Draper is?   He's arguably a lot smarter than you or I, so perhaps read what he thinks - https://cointelegraph.com/news/tim-draper-says-bitcoin-is-bigger-than-the-industrial-revolution-in-debate-with-skeptics     Of course there are also very smart people who disagree, you just have to read as many opinions, do research into which cryptos you like and make a decision that you are comfortable with.   

But you definitely don't need to gamble your entire retirement.

[Hummin]

17 minutes ago, seancbk said:

 

Who says you have to gamble your retirement? 

Do you know who Tim Draper is?   He's arguably a lot smarter than you or I, so perhaps read what he thinks - https://cointelegraph.com/news/tim-draper-says-bitcoin-is-bigger-than-the-industrial-revolution-in-debate-with-skeptics     Of course there are also very smart people who disagree, you just have to read as many opinions, do research into which cryptos you like and make a decision that you are comfortable with.   

But you definitely don't need to gamble your entire retirement.

Why are you using terms like alot smarter than you? What is your problem? 

[seancbk]

15 minutes ago, Hummin said:

32 minutes ago, seancbk said:

 

Who says you have to gamble your retirement? 

Do you know who Tim Draper is?   He's arguably a lot smarter than you or I, so perhaps read what he thinks - https://cointelegraph.com/news/tim-draper-says-bitcoin-is-bigger-than-the-industrial-revolution-in-debate-with-skeptics     Of course there are also very smart people who disagree, you just have to read as many opinions, do research into which cryptos you like and make a decision that you are comfortable with.   

But you definitely don't need to gamble your entire retirement.

Why are you using terms like alot smarter than you? What is your problem? 

Nothing wrong with me.  I know I'm smarter than many people, but I can admit that Tim Draper is probably smarter than I am.   

 

[Hummin]

11 minutes ago, seancbk said:

Nothing wrong with me.  I know I'm smarter than many people, but I can admit that Tim Draper is probably smarter than I am.   

 

I have never met a man who claim he is smarter than most or others, being actually smart ;-) 

 

Here is a balanced article, and I guess bitcoins trading isnt for me. As I said, I have enough and do not need more! 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/haroldstark/2017/12/02/heres-why-you-should-invest-in-bitcoins-this-holiday-season/#46b9d5107e87

Edited April 24, 2018 by Hummin

[seancbk]

3 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I have never met a man who claim he is smarter than most or others, being actually smart ;-) 

 

Here is a balanced article, and I guess bitcoins trading isnt for me. As I said, I have enough and do not need more! 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/haroldstark/2017/12/02/heres-why-you-should-invest-in-bitcoins-this-holiday-season/#46b9d5107e87

I get your point except being modest about one's intelligence is like being modest about any skill, it's all nice and polite but it's pretty daft.   If a concert violinist were to say "I'm probably better at the violin than most", would you question his statement?     

That article is very out of date, poorly researched, talks about platforms that I wouldn't go near with a barge-pole and gives almost no useful info.  

Question is why bother to respond to a thread about crypto investing if you have no interest in the subject?     

[baansgr]

12 hours ago, bearpolar said:

 

stay poor and uneducated then, why spread bullshit? Are you trying to make yourself feel better?

 

look at this from today:

https://modum.io/modum-announces-its-cooperation-with-swiss-post/

 

Swiss post is scamming everyone, they are using a crypto!!! you guys are hilarious.  I've probably made more  than you have in all your investments and bank account from that single company over the last few months, and i've cashed out tons and still own a lot. It's a dividend token, explain to me wheres the scam/ponzi?

I just have a more passive view to investing which has stood me in good stead all my live. Ive already seen first hand the suffering that crpytos have brought to close friends even though against my advice. The hype is more than ever as those that have lost 60% of their "investments" are talking of nothing else to try and quell the pain of loss. Few have made money, millions have lost and that will continue Im afraid. 

[Hummin]

1 hour ago, seancbk said:

I get your point except being modest about one's intelligence is like being modest about any skill, it's all nice and polite but it's pretty daft.   If a concert violinist were to say "I'm probably better at the violin than most", would you question his statement?     

That article is very out of date, poorly researched, talks about platforms that I wouldn't go near with a barge-pole and gives almost no useful info.  

Question is why bother to respond to a thread about crypto investing if you have no interest in the subject?     

I do have interest, but based on the information I gathered, I have decided it is not for me at the moment. Future will tell, and I have time to wait. I also feel Im not missing out if the new «religious» are right and get rich, and still look down on people who is sceptic. 

 

My investments and placements is based on long term and low risk. So we will see who is the smartest ass afterall. Anyway I do not care if you loose or make a trillion dollars, I do it my way and feel good about it. 

 

Please read the treadstarters opening post, and then thell me if Im raight to post here or not!

 

 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Hummin

[seancbk]

26 minutes ago, Hummin said:

1 hour ago, seancbk said:

I get your point except being modest about one's intelligence is like being modest about any skill, it's all nice and polite but it's pretty daft.   If a concert violinist were to say "I'm probably better at the violin than most", would you question his statement?     

That article is very out of date, poorly researched, talks about platforms that I wouldn't go near with a barge-pole and gives almost no useful info.  

Question is why bother to respond to a thread about crypto investing if you have no interest in the subject?     

I do have interest, but based on the information I gathered, I have decided it is not for me at the moment. Future will tell, and I have time to wait. I also feel Im not missing out if the new «religious» are right and get rich, and still look down on people who is sceptic. 

 

My investments and placements is based on long term and low risk. So we will see who is the smartest ass afterall. Anyway I do not care if you loose or make a trillion dollars, I do it my way and feel good about it. 

 

Please read the treadstarters opening post, and then thell me if Im raight to post here or not!

Of course you can post anywhere you like.  I only post in threads I'm actually interested in, I had the sense you posted as someone not interested.

 

[Monomial]

13 hours ago, Craig krup said:

I see little evidence for this, and little reason - if they're right - why they would be encouraging you to buy what (presumably) they wish to keep for themselves at the lowest possible entry price. 

 

Money is loaned into existence. The fundamental source is secured mortgage lending. Actual paper and coin is close to meaningless; certainly trivial. People would rather consume than produce. So borrowing has a price. You enter the real economy and produce goods and services, earning the interest rate and handing it over to the bank. If non-inflationary growth looks possible the price of money falls, and - should inflation increase - it rises. So-called "fiat" currencies are, therefore, secured on the productive capacity of the economies where they are legal tender, and they trade freely around the world, meaning that "purchasing power parity" considerations prevent shenanigans. 

 

But....whatever. Do as you please. 

 

And this continues to work to some degree as long as you accept the value judgement that economic growth is good and that greed and materialism are the best defining motivators for human societies. Discard value judgements such as these though, and you arrive at a system that is totally unsustainable, with money flowing inexorably to the banks who are charging interest to supply and mange the currency at the expense of the real, productive class who are doing all the work. The mechanics of the system today demand that the banks are unfairly rewarded for providing this "service" to society. It is a value judgement whether this service is really a service at all, and during periods of non growth or decline it becomes horrifically unstable.

 

Cryptocurrencies offer a completely new way to frame what a currency should be and how we should organize society, and bring in a human dimension beyond simple economics. Imagine a gift economy being reborn on top of a cryptocurrency for example. While it is hard to imagine that today, as it would require replacing the greed ethos with one of status for generosity,  the millennials and others who reject today's financial system are looking at historical examples of economies and doing exactly this. They are replacing the value systems that current economic theories take as axiomatic. If you laugh at this and say it can never work, then I encourage you to expand your horizons and reconsider the possibility that your value systems are not shared by those who are much younger and unimpressed by the bankers who have engineered the world we have today.

 

Societies go through large, century long cycles in perception, and to believe that the philosophies of the last 2 centuries are the only and/or best way to frame social constructs is naive. It is going to be hard for retirees and those strongly invested in the current narratives to accept these changes, but ultimately there will be no choice. History shows over and over that the one thing you can count on is change.

 

[Craig krup]

32 minutes ago, Monomial said:

 

Imagine a gift economy being reborn on top of a cryptocurrency for example.

 

To take just one example. What the hell does that even mean. You don't define your terms. What is a "gift economy"? Whatever it is how could it be "reborn on top" of a cryptocurrency? 

 

This kind of talk sounds like academic speech to anyone who hasn't been near the academy. 

[seancbk]

This was just released and makes for interesting reading.

https://www.ccn.com/us-federal-reserve-bitcoin-study/

Source of the above article:   https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/review/2018/02/13/the-case-for-central-bank-electronic-money-and-the-non-case-for-central-bank-cryptocurrencies

 

[Craig krup]

57 minutes ago, seancbk said:

This was just released and makes for interesting reading.

https://www.ccn.com/us-federal-reserve-bitcoin-study/

Source of the above article:   https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/review/2018/02/13/the-case-for-central-bank-electronic-money-and-the-non-case-for-central-bank-cryptocurrencies

 

 

Quite interesting. So - in essence - if you wished to create anonymous electronic payment options banks could do it, and do it efficiently, thus removing the (supposed) unique selling point of cryptos. These "official" cryptos would also be denominated as the currency of the issuer, so you'd have legal tender status. The bank would be in a territory, the government could only ask for its taxes in the currency, courts could order the settlement of debts in that currency (regardless of the currency they were incurred in), and citizens would need the currency to pay their taxes. Given that government would only be able to spend what it raises in that currency - or what it can borrow without causing a currency crisis - you'd be able to reasonably expext some stability and ongoing purchasing power. 

 

Folk aren't really interested in Bitcoin, or in the nature of money. They're interested in money for nothing! Try to interest them in the invention of the Bully Mark in prisoner of war camps and they couldn't care less. Bitcoin may go up!!! I'll be rich, I tell you, rich beyond the dreams of avarice!!!!

 

http://icm.clsbe.lisboa.ucp.pt/docentes/url/jcn/ie2/0POWCamp.pdf

 

 

[bearpolar]

 

Hey guys, look! One of the largest power companies in the world is about to scam everyone with a ponzi!

[Hummin]

9 minutes ago, bearpolar said:

 

Hey guys, look! One of the largest power companies in the world is about to scam everyone with a ponzi!

Power companies is Mafia