Considering "Big Joke's" Actions, will agencies continue the way?

[smotherb]

25 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

No, I am not blaming the Thai students, nor defending all NES teachers.  In fact, I am not blaming anyone; I do think it is one giant pile-up however.  Tellingly, most of the problems discussed also apply to other subjects.  Regarding English in particular, I do think it is a mistake to treat it as a mandatory/core subject, and contend that the majority of students simply don't want to learn it; why should they?  Besides languages are one of those things you have an aptitude for or not.

 

IMHO, English should only be offered to students after the age of 14, say, if they display genuine ability or desire; that goes for many subjects after all.  What is the point of teaching a subject to someone who is simply not interested?....arguably that is the worst system of all.

 

 

I think the younger you teach children the better. My grandson is 3 and speaks three languages--English, Thai and Filipino--albeit in simple sentences with limited vocabulary. Last weekend we were in Ao Nanag with some German friends; he asked, "Grandpa, what are they speaking?" He now says a few words in German he learned that afternoon.

[mommysboy]

17 minutes ago, smotherb said:

What practice; an hour or two a week in a class? I have seen Western children enter a language class intent on not uttering a word either. I have also seen Thai children without foreign parents, who speak English quite well and seen half-Thai children who have one English-speaking parent who do not speak English well. I maintain that better English comes from social interaction. especially when classroom exposure is slight and fraught with social pressures.  My neighborhood Thai kids who speak English well have actually taught other Thai children in the neighborhood some English; they play games and use English phrases.  

 

I have met many fluent Thai speakers here in Thailand. Are you sure you didn't mean you haven't met a Thai fluent in English?

 

Well, I have met Thais fluent in English. My wife has several Thai women friends who speak excellent English. Our son was here for six years; his first girlfriend has a PhD in Political Science and American Studies and teaches in English at a Thai university. He married his second girlfriend who is an industrial engineer in a multinational O&G firm. She is fluent in English and is often asked to translate at meeting with Thai business people. 

 

Have you ever been in a Thai state school as a TEFL teacher? 

 

What you appear to be saying is that actually the children don't need formal lessons at all, but only to interact with English speakers, and to a large extent I would agree with that. I also maintain that a large cohort of language learners simply have a talent that will out one way or another, and vice versa with the less talented at languages.

 

Yes, I meant fluent Thai speakers of the English language.  What else could I have possibly meant given the subject matter we are discussing?  From what you have written from your background and experiences, is it fair to say that you are somewhat removed from the ordinary Thai experience as lived by most TEFL teachers?... having taught in completely different circumstances, and socializing with what might be described as middle-class people or higher.  The people you describe are rare exceptions; I have honestly never met anyone like them.

 

 

[mommysboy]

30 minutes ago, smotherb said:

I think the younger you teach children the better. My grandson is 3 and speaks three languages--English, Thai and Filipino--albeit in simple sentences with limited vocabulary. Last weekend we were in Ao Nanag with some German friends; he asked, "Grandpa, what are they speaking?" He now says a few words in German he learned that afternoon.

Same with my daughter who is just 3 years old.  She already speaks better English than most Thais. I try to speak only English with her (I can speak some Thai), and encourage my wife to only speak Thai.  Obviously, this is not a typical case, as most Thais do not have a British father.

[smotherb]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

Same with my daughter who is just 3 years old.  She already speaks better English than most Thais. I try to speak only English with her (I can speak some Thai), and encourage my wife to only speak Thai.  Obviously, this is not a typical case, as most Thais do not have a British father.

But your daughter and my grandson learned through socialization rather than schools didn't they?

[mommysboy]

3 minutes ago, smotherb said:

But your daughter and my grandson learned through socialization rather than schools didn't they?

Yes.  Absolutely, I'd say.  

[smotherb]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

 

Have you ever been in a Thai state school as a TEFL teacher? 

 

What you appear to be saying is that actually the children don't need formal lessons at all, but only to interact with English speakers, and to a large extent I would agree with that. I also maintain that a large cohort of language learners simply have a talent that will out one way or another, and vice versa with the less talented at languages.

 

Yes, I meant fluent Thai speakers of the English language.  What else could I have possibly meant given the subject matter we are discussing?  From what you have written from your background and experiences, is it fair to say that you are somewhat removed from the ordinary Thai experience as lived by most TEFL teachers?... having taught in completely different circumstances, and socializing with what might be described as middle-class people or higher.  The people you describe are rare exceptions; I have honestly never met anyone like them.

 

 

No, I am not saying children do not need formal lessons; I am saying the conversational aspects of a language are better learned through socialization. Even grammar can be learned socially; then reinforced with formal lessons or vice versa.

 

Although I have never been a TEFL teacher, I am a tenured academician who has considerable experience working with Thais and other foreigners who were taught English in their home-country schools. Additionally, both my wife and our son are university and TEFL graduates who have been NES teachers here. I have discussed English teaching in Thailand with them and dozens of their colleagues, both NES and Filipino teachers, as well as with many Thai and foreign language school officials. So, I am not just off the farm. Perhaps it is your own lack of exposure which limits your knowledge of English-speaking Thais. 

[mommysboy]

11 hours ago, smotherb said:

No, I am not saying children do not need formal lessons; I am saying the conversational aspects of a language are better learned through socialization. Even grammar can be learned socially; then reinforced with formal lessons or vice versa.

 

Although I have never been a TEFL teacher, I am a tenured academician who has considerable experience working with Thais and other foreigners who were taught English in their home-country schools. Additionally, both my wife and our son are university and TEFL graduates who have been NES teachers here. I have discussed English teaching in Thailand with them and dozens of their colleagues, both NES and Filipino teachers, as well as with many Thai and foreign language school officials. So, I am not just off the farm. Perhaps it is your own lack of exposure which limits your knowledge of English-speaking Thais. 

 

 

Well, we can only swim in the waters we're in- I am basically working class made good, but you can only go so high.  Crucially, you don't have any direct experience.  The further you move away from the chalk face, the more abstracted one becomes, and it can happen amazingly quickly.

 

The stark reality, and this applies to nearly all subjects, is that Thai state schools are probably the worst place to learn anything!  And yes, you are right, formal education may not be that important at a tertiary level for basic subjects.  Kids are smart- school can make them dumb.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2018 by mommysboy

[smotherb]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

 

Well, we can only swim in the waters we're in- I am basically working class made good, but you can only go so high.  Crucially, you don't have any direct experience.  The further you move away from the chalk face, the more abstracted one becomes, and it can happen amazingly quickly.

 

The stark reality, and this applies to nearly all subjects, is that Thai state schools are probably the worst place to learn anything!  And yes, you are right, formal education may not be that important at a tertiary level for basic subjects.  Kids are smart- school can make them dumb.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, since your opinion is so limited and can only go so high; you’ll have to try to understand me if I do not subscribe to your opinion that only TEFL teachers understand the issues of teaching English to foreigners.

[Rc2702]

On 30/04/2018 at 7:28 AM, mommysboy said:

You should have pointed that out.

 

But.. yes it could be considered a success, because at present the standards are terribly low, so even speaking some broken English is better than the present situation.

 

I see your point though- the students will still be left unable to relate to a native speaker, who is, after all, a definitive speaker of the language.  Really, though, he is just putting on a brave face in adversity: there is a dearth of native TEFL teachers, and the school coffers are empty.

 

Seen from another angle, it's just the typical Thai way of avoiding the problem, and dumbing down the system to effect a (paper) result.

You should have realised this before responding. It can only be considered a success. the differential between thai and phillipines grasp of the English language is massive.

[mommysboy]

4 hours ago, Rc2702 said:

You should have realised this before responding. It can only be considered a success. the differential between thai and phillipines grasp of the English language is massive.

I'd respond if I had much of an inkling about what you are talking about.

[Rc2702]

6 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I'd respond if I had much of an inkling about what you are talking about.

You just did respond. What I think you mean is you would try to retort. 

[humbug]

On 30 เมษายน 2561 at 12:21 PM, smotherb said:

My neighbor is a school administrator and insists he is employing as many Filipino teachers as possible. He says three reasons are well known--they work for less, they complain less, and most are degreed, many as teachers; which better satisfies the powers that be on expenses, retention, and qualification.  The more prevalent reason is because they are Asians too. He says he works with his parents association and has convinced them that having Asians teach English to their children will help assure the students that they too can learn. To improve the English programs he is using English-language entertainment venues--music, movies, TV, even sports in English--to supplement the traditional grammar and conversation aspects of the curriculum.

the thai couple on the same floor had their son go ekkamai international school from an early age. What they didnt expect was that their son over the years would pick up the phillipino accent which has become such a strain that they enrolled him at Harrow and are paying for extra lessons at an academy so he will lose the accent.

Its become a stigma for the kid the first time i met him i couldnt believe he was thai i thought he was phillipino.

I havent got any kids if i did i would make sure there wasnt one phillipino anywhere near the school after what its done to the neighbours kid

[Norrad]

They are definitely stepping up the raids. Apparently a well known EP school in central Bangkok had a visit and all documents were very carefully checked. I would recommend all those teachers without degrees or paperwork should pack up and get out now or face getting arrested.

[smotherb]

5 hours ago, humbug said:

the thai couple on the same floor had their son go ekkamai international school from an early age. What they didnt expect was that their son over the years would pick up the phillipino accent which has become such a strain that they enrolled him at Harrow and are paying for extra lessons at an academy so he will lose the accent.

Its become a stigma for the kid the first time i met him i couldnt believe he was thai i thought he was phillipino.

I havent got any kids if i did i would make sure there wasnt one phillipino anywhere near the school after what its done to the neighbours kid

Ah, but he learned English. Can you imagine the embarrassment learning English with a Brummie, Scouse, or Mancurian accent? 

[mommysboy]

51 minutes ago, Norrad said:

They are definitely stepping up the raids. Apparently a well known EP school in central Bangkok had a visit and all documents were very carefully checked. I would recommend all those teachers without degrees or paperwork should pack up and get out now or face getting arrested.

That's very much the way I see things panning out.  

[mommysboy]

5 hours ago, humbug said:

the thai couple on the same floor had their son go ekkamai international school from an early age. What they didnt expect was that their son over the years would pick up the phillipino accent which has become such a strain that they enrolled him at Harrow and are paying for extra lessons at an academy so he will lose the accent.

Its become a stigma for the kid the first time i met him i couldnt believe he was thai i thought he was phillipino.

I havent got any kids if i did i would make sure there wasnt one phillipino anywhere near the school after what its done to the neighbours kid

Yes, but he is speaking English.  It could be that the accent suits Thais in the early stages. What they also get from a Filipino is a teacher who tends to hang around, and many are career teachers. One thing is for sure, not many Thais can handle any NES accent.  Perhaps later on when they have a grasp of English, then correction can take place, and that's when tuition from a native English speaker becomes useful.

 

 

[greenchair]

On 4/30/2018 at 12:21 PM, smotherb said:

My neighbor is a school administrator and insists he is employing as many Filipino teachers as possible. He says three reasons are well known--they work for less, they complain less, and most are degreed, many as teachers; which better satisfies the powers that be on expenses, retention, and qualification.  The more prevalent reason is because they are Asians too. He says he works with his parents association and has convinced them that having Asians teach English to their children will help assure the students that they too can learn. To improve the English programs he is using English-language entertainment venues--music, movies, TV, even sports in English--to supplement the traditional grammar and conversation aspects of the curriculum.

And for example sarasas schools used to always hire non degreed backpacker native speakers. Funnily enough, all the children were speaking really good English with a few foul words to boot. Since the stricter laws, they hire highly qualified philipinoes that speak really good English. Funnily enough, it's hard to get an english conversation out of a sarasas student these days. 

[greenchair]

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Yes, but he is speaking English.  It could be that the accent suits Thais in the early stages. What they also get from a Filipino is a teacher who tends to hang around, and many are career teachers. One thing is for sure, not many Thais can handle any NES accent.  Perhaps later on when they have a grasp of English, then correction can take place, and that's when tuition from a native English speaker becomes useful.

 

 

Once they have learned those bad habits, it takes months and months of speech therapy to correct it. And they always revert back to the original accent. 

[greenchair]

9 hours ago, humbug said:

the thai couple on the same floor had their son go ekkamai international school from an early age. What they didnt expect was that their son over the years would pick up the phillipino accent which has become such a strain that they enrolled him at Harrow and are paying for extra lessons at an academy so he will lose the accent.

Its become a stigma for the kid the first time i met him i couldnt believe he was thai i thought he was phillipino.

I havent got any kids if i did i would make sure there wasnt one phillipino anywhere near the school after what its done to the neighbours kid

My son is fluent in English with no accent of thai at all. 

I would rather he learned with a Thai English teacher than a philipinoe. He went to international school speaking perfectly and came home with philish. After I put him in a Thai school, his English went back to normal. 

The philipinoes are good for math, art, music, sport, physics and chemi. 

Even with all the trouble the nes get a better result. 

Sad to see them all go. 

[ozmeldo]

That's pretty sad because Filipinos do not speak English well. The dialect is atrocious, the syntax full of slangy Filipino and they have a total inability to speak formal English (being polite is not necessarily formal English).

 

It's fine for a big standard school but the top twenty public schools in Bangkok and the top thirty in the rest of the country - the kids that are going places should have an NES.

 

There is also a huge part of teaching English Filipinos are clueless on. They don't read not were they ever exposed to western literature.

 

The schools are far worse than Thai universities.

 

I'm not at all impressed with their work ethic.

 

Many Ed degrees are said to be fraudulent as well. Given the shenanigans I've witnessed, I don't doubt it.

 

Pay peanuts get monkeys

[humbug]

4 hours ago, smotherb said:

Ah, but he learned English. Can you imagine the embarrassment learning English with a Brummie, Scouse, or Mancurian accent? 

its not from one staff member that the kid was picking up the phillipino accent over the years it was many staff, i speak to this kid, let me tell you he has the phillipino twang he must give the kid an inferiority complex. They lets see if Harrow boarding can take away the twang

[ozmeldo]

12 minutes ago, greenchair said:

My son is fluent in English with no accent of thai at all. 

I would rather he learned with a Thai English teacher than a philipinoe. He went to international school speaking perfectly and came home with philish. After I put him in a Thai school, his English went back to normal. 

The philipinoes are good for math, art, music, sport, physics and chemi. 

Even with all the trouble the nes get a better result. 

Sad to see them all go. 

They are not good for those subjects, they know nothing about them. I've only known one teacher (Math) who actually had a degree in Math. The rest are substandard degrees from dodgy provincial colleges and even more sketchy schools.

 

I stopped teaching in EP because of the poor education the kids were getting in subjects. Serious. Thais are far, far better off with Thai teachers. With rare exception, EP kids never do well on onets. Intensive or regular program kids smoke em!

 

One issue I had at the fairly decent school I was at was the Filipinos giving the kids 'free time'. Not just five mins because the lesson was short, half the class! I'd come into class and the work ethic was in the toilet. I'd worked very hard to discipline those kids, they were smart and they had potential.

[ozmeldo]

Just for the record the I find the Thai English accent far more palatable, even pleasant-ish.

 

Filipino and Indian accents are imo the most grating in the world. The sing song nature, cadance and the Filipino vowels. It's torture.

[humbug]

4 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Yes, but he is speaking English.  It could be that the accent suits Thais in the early stages. What they also get from a Filipino is a teacher who tends to hang around, and many are career teachers. One thing is for sure, not many Thais can handle any NES accent.  Perhaps later on when they have a grasp of English, then correction can take place, and that's when tuition from a native English speaker becomes useful.

 

 

that sounds promising for him that he could grow out of it speech-wise. They enrolled him at harrow boarding and an academy at weekends. The kid doesnt have too much negative reviews on the phillipino staff. He speaks fondly of his time at ekkamai int school but boy his accent, he has all the nueances and twangs. Its could be an accent that when you are young and around many staff with the same speech just easy to immitate

[ozmeldo]

On 5/2/2018 at 5:37 PM, Rc2702 said:

You should have realised this before responding. It can only be considered a success. the differential between thai and phillipines grasp of the English language is massive.

Filipinos don't have the command of the language, what they have is fluency and it impresses the hell out of those who just don't have a clue.

 

1500 of the most common English words, high fluency. Truly one trick pony.

[humbug]

44 minutes ago, greenchair said:

My son is fluent in English with no accent of thai at all. 

I would rather he learned with a Thai English teacher than a philipinoe. He went to international school speaking perfectly and came home with philish. After I put him in a Thai school, his English went back to normal. 

The philipinoes are good for math, art, music, sport, physics and chemi. 

Even with all the trouble the nes get a better result. 

Sad to see them all go. 

thats good for your kid. Seems he was able to lose the other accent from joining a different school with different staff and methods. 

So the Nes is the foreign section of a school. Maybe thats the ones they are searching.

Last week on my way into town i went past a large school called nonsi or nonsi withayu. It was 7,30 am and opposite the school were 3 tourist police and one woman in non unform pointing at the school. 

[smotherb]

1 hour ago, greenchair said:

And for example sarasas schools used to always hire non degreed backpacker native speakers. Funnily enough, all the children were speaking really good English with a few foul words to boot. Since the stricter laws, they hire highly qualified philipinoes that speak really good English. Funnily enough, it's hard to get an english conversation out of a sarasas student these days. 

Well, that may be one case, but I am sure it is not representative of all cases. However, if that is the outcome of his experiment using Filipino teachers, I am sure he will change methods. As I said, he is convinced the Filipinos will do a better job--as I said in a later post, he already conducted an experiment with Filipino teachers vs. NES teachers.

[smotherb]

1 hour ago, humbug said:

its not from one staff member that the kid was picking up the phillipino accent over the years it was many staff, i speak to this kid, let me tell you he has the phillipino twang he must give the kid an inferiority complex. They lets see if Harrow boarding can take away the twang

He has been accepted to Harrow has he; this kid who has such a lousy Filipino accent?  Those damned Filipino teachers; how could he ever learn to read, write or speak English?

 

Are you aware Harrow requires each perspective student to pass an entrance exam? The ISEB Common Pre-Test is a standardized scholarly acceptance exam " . . . consisting of multiple-choice questions in verbal reasoning, non-verbal reasoning, English and Mathematics . . . We deselect a small number of applicants who do not perform well in the test . . ."

https://www.harrowschool.org.uk/Year-9-Entry

 

[greenchair]

15 hours ago, ozmeldo said:

They are not good for those subjects, they know nothing about them. I've only known one teacher (Math) who actually had a degree in Math. The rest are substandard degrees from dodgy provincial colleges and even more sketchy schools.

 

I stopped teaching in EP because of the poor education the kids were getting in subjects. Serious. Thais are far, far better off with Thai teachers. With rare exception, EP kids never do well on onets. Intensive or regular program kids smoke em!

 

One issue I had at the fairly decent school I was at was the Filipinos giving the kids 'free time'. Not just five mins because the lesson was short, half the class! I'd come into class and the work ethic was in the toilet. I'd worked very hard to discipline those kids, they were smart and they had potential.

You are correct. 

I was trying to be kind. 

I have seen kids crying because they don't want to colour anymore. 

10 minutes of English and 40 minutes to color. And you are also right, the children are best in a Thai programme with a native speaker twice a week, with a Thai teacher for grammar. 

[greenchair]

14 hours ago, smotherb said:

He has been accepted to Harrow has he; this kid who has such a lousy Filipino accent?  Those damned Filipino teachers; how could he ever learn to read, write or speak English?

 

Are you aware Harrow requires each perspective student to pass an entrance exam? The ISEB Common Pre-Test is a standardized scholarly acceptance exam " . . . consisting of multiple-choice questions in verbal reasoning, non-verbal reasoning, English and Mathematics . . . We deselect a small number of applicants who do not perform well in the test . . ."

https://www.harrowschool.org.uk/Year-9-Entry

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but that test is for grade 9 students applying for a scholarship. 

The standard entrance with no scholarship does not require the test.

That's how I read it anyway. 

And also that is for harrow school in the UK, nothing to do with harrow in Thailand. 

And I may also be extremely wrong, but many years ago when harrow applied for accreditation from the UK, they were turned down. though that may not be the case now. 

Edited May 4, 2018 by greenchair