Stuck with Stick Welding

[UniqueWord]

Hello.

I don't post a lot, but read TVF News on most days.  I need some advice on Stick Welding and thought I would
see if the Forum has any members who can help.
I'm no stranger to eng workshops, been around them since 16 yo, first as a sprog engineer in engine rooms of
ocean-going merchant ships.  But I've never fooled around with arc welding until very recently when I found that
it was now within the capabilities of a small DIY home workshop.
So I did some reading and got some gear, and started to practice.  I should mention that I'm working with 2mm
thick square section tubular steel.  Did well enough to start, and after a few weeks practicing, managed to
fabricate a 80cm x 60cm rectangular frame that stood up to reasonable tests of true rectilineal properties,
including the fishing line test.  But the quality of the welds I made were poor, with quite a few inclusions and
insufficient strength, in my opinion.
I felt that the included angle of the four right angle joints was the most promising place the strength could be
increased, so I started practicing making strong welds of this particular joint.  To do this I made a jig to hold the
two sections of steel to be joined so that the included angle of the joint is pointing down wth the jig held in a
vertical manner.  See the attached photo.
Here is where I'm stuck.  So far I've been able to make only one halfway decent weld using this set-up, and that
was not repeatable under the same conditions.  I've been doing this for nearly 2 weeks using a number of
different conditions.
My reading tells me that for 2mm steel I should be using a rod less than 2mm dia.  I've asked around my area
but the major stores e.g. HomePro, ThaiWatsadu have only 2.6mm.  I found one Mom & Pop h/w store in Surin
that sold me some no-name brand 2mm rods by weight!  I went to eBay and found some 1.6mm E6013 rods
from UK, which I've also used.
My reading also tells me the rule-of-thumb for the current is 1 Amp for each .001" rod dia, so that gives me a
range of 60 to 100 amps.  Also the choice of polarity for the rod has some effect on the weld; it's
recommended for thin welds that the rod be connected to the negative terminal, the so-called DCEN setting.
The one almost decent result was obtained with a 2mm rod at 80 amps in a DCEN setting which is where I get
the most favourable results.  If I change to DCEP then I easily burn through the sides and create huge holes.  If
I use 1.6mm rods at 60 amps then I get thin welds that don't survive removal from the jig.
Of the welds that I'm able to inspect, I find that they appear to have succeeded, but after chipping away the
slag there is weld material on both sides of the joint but the weld has not fused across the joint.  Instead there's
a thin layer of slag between the two sides.  I'm reminded of soldering where there's been insufficient flux used.  
The internet pundits say this can happen where there's not enough heat in the weld puddle and suggest
increasing the current.  When I do this I run into burn-thru problems.
So, in conclusion I've got 3 variables to juggle: rod dia (1.6,2,2.6), current (50-100), polarity (EN,EP).  Of these,
my best results are with 2mm rods at 80 Amps in DCEN mode, but these welds still exhibit quite striking
defects.
My feeling is that things are almost there, but there is some fundamental flaw in what I'm doing that I've
overlooked.
Are there any members who have had similar experiences, or hopefully, can tell me what my error(s) is/are?
Cheers, UW.

[VocalNeal]

How good is your eyesight? You need good eyes for welding. I need an extra magnifier in my helmet 

 

Practice on something thicker. Say two 3/8 or 1/2 plates and do some T joints to get the hang of it. Then work down to thin stuff. Back in the day I used to be able to weld with the flux curling away as I worked my way down the joint. Like much of one's formative education, never used it again You'll been doing it for two weeks? I think I spent 6 weeks, welding everyday. 

 

Thin is very difficult using stick welding as you have found out. Unless you do the Thai style dab and melt, dab and melt technique.  

 

How much welding do you want to do? MIG with the machine fed wire is probably easier but the equipment is a bit more expensive. I'm more comfortable with gas.. More formative years practice, I used to weld very thin stuff. 

 

Ex Blue Star (no welding. Guys in white overalls don't do that) 

Edited April 29, 2018 by VocalNeal

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, VocalNeal said:

How much welding do you want to do? MIG with the machine fed wire is probably easier but the equipment is a bit more expensive. I'm more comfortable with gas.. More formative years practice, I used to weld very thin stuff. 

I completely agree on the MIG with gas being very much easier, the problems are that there are few if any small or medium sized machines available the only one I have seen is about 27,000 Baht and CO2 Gas isn't easy to find either. I've had a little practice on stick machines and am completely capable of burning through. Recently I had a chance to have a go with MIG, while I'm still not very good (to say the least) my welds will do the job

those are after about 5 minutes of being introduced to the machine, so if I can get a reasonably priced unit and find where I can buy gas I will be selling my stick unit. 

 

Here is an example of my stick welding 

again not very pretty but usable 

Edited April 29, 2018 by sometimewoodworker

[VocalNeal]

21 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

again not very pretty but usable 

You can't see it from above.  As my mother would say about imperfections. "A blind man would be glad to see it" 

[phetphet]

Could also be the quality of rods you are using, and correct ones for the purpose and material you are welding.

If you have poor quality or, inadvertently got the wrong rods, you will never make a clean weld.

 

Probably some general purpose rods would be easiest to use. If you have managed to get hold of low hydrogen rods, you will never get a clean weld. They require prior heating in an oven to dry them out, and are difficult to use unless experienced.

[Pogust]

I'm welding 1,2 and 1,8mm steel profiles with between 38 and 45 amp setting. Use 1,6 and 2mm ESAB OK48 (E7018) that I took here myself. For 1,8 materiel it also works well with 2,6 electrodes in most cases.

 

I can't see the weld puddle through the slag with Kobe 30 (E6013)electrodes, the most common thai electrode that seem to work best with thai style dab and melt at high amps. That mean I have no control over the result.

 

Some welds are almost impossible to get right with 2,6mm rods on thin material. There is a rod I found useful, Kobe LB-52 (E7016). They are more difficult to start but I see the weld puddle as I go and that is the main thing. I made most of my roof trusses with that.

 

Try reducing amp setting as low as possible to allow you to run a continuous weld without burning through material. And still being able to start electrode. Focus on the molten material and keep an even weld puddle as you go. It takes time but you will get experience if you keep on trying. Good eyesight and a bright enough welding helmet is necessary to allow you see what you are doing.

 

Done plenty welding on the roofs.....

[Crossy]

If you don't already have one an "automatic" welding helmet is the best thing since sliced bread. 1-2k Baht.

 

[canuckamuck]

Interesting thread, thanks for starting it.

I seem to be able to make welds work with 2mm steel here and the bog standard rods. But it is hit and miss, occasionally I am Micheal Angelo, usually I am Jackson Pollack.

[Crossy]

For those considering MIG, CO₂ "should" be readily available from the bar supplies places (it makes your draft beer fizzy), in decent sized bottles too.

 

[sipi]

Keep your rods dry, especially in the humid weather. 

[CGW]

15 hours ago, sipi said:

Keep your rods dry, especially in the humid weather. 

That was my thoughts if the rods are "damp" the flux just falls off.

[cornishcarlos]

Clean the area well before starting... 

Clean the weld up when finished (flapper wheel or carefully with a grinding disk)

[Fruit Trader]

Was going to offer a few basic checks but seems the OP has done the classic runner. From the photo, looks like he is on a mission to burn down his workshop.

[UniqueWord]

Many thanks for all the constructive answers.  I'm rather encouraged that not even one was of the 'you're trying to do that with that?, ha ha' type.
Frankly, I surprised myself by being able to even make 2 pieces of metal stick together with just a few weeks of practice, so I do understand your comments on the need for practice, and on thicker material.  I went around Surin town yesterday trying to find tubular steel thicker than 2mm, and was told repeatedly that 2mm is the thickest available.  Is that something peculiar to Surin or is it throughout the country?
The comment from Pogust on the Kobe LB-52 rod is much appreciated.  May I ask where to get some of these?  But even without that rod, I shall try to follow the suggested technique.  The Thai dab & melt style was demo'd to me by my bro-in-law early in my journey.  Something I've not tried to emulate.  I assume a bright helmet is a self-darkening type to which Crossy refers as automatic.  I do have one of those, with adjustable  brightness and sensitivity.
Here's a story - I saw a Youtube review of a good one offered by Northern Tool Co with magnfier inserts available for under US$40, plus $5 per mag.  So I tried to get one on eBay but no shipping to Thailand.  Contacted the Co, and they said could not ship international because it contains an integrated Li-ion battery.  I have a buddy in US who ships stuff to me, and I intend to ask him to get one and ship to me as a spare for the Chinese one that I bought here.
Finally thanks for the humour, intended or not, from sipi regarding the importance of keeping your rod dry.
I've found that's always been decided on a case by case basis.

PS  Just saw more comments.  I shall take the 'dry rod' advice more seriously.  Been using flapper wheel and grinding disk to inspect welds when needed.
Au contraire - have not done a runner, it's just that I have a life beyond the keyboard.  And Fire Ext is standing by.

[Pogust]

I found Kobe LB-52 in Global, however do remember they are more difficult to use. I have seen them in other shops too but not in small shops as Thai handyman can't weld with them.

 

Best if you can find thinner rods than 2,6 for the 2mm material as they are burning much better on low amps and easier to use.

[mogandave]

First, if you don’t have one, buy a good grinder.

Someone mentioned heavier material, I agree. Get some heavier material cut short pieces and practice horizontal fillets. These are the easiest to master, and there is no point in moving ahead until you can run a nice one.

Someone mentioned using a blinker helmet. These are great, but be careful of the cheap ones as parts are typically not available. We use all Speedglass, which are pricy, but replacement parts are cheap. You will probably be better off with a decent #10 fixed shade than a cheap blinker,

[sipi]

It is mostly in the preparation. 

Take time to fit the pieces carefully before welding. 

A half millimeter gap will soon become a four millimetre hole on steel that thin. 

[fakename]

First off, someone learning to weld, does not start building things! You start off doing horizontal welds, then work up to vertical, and then you can try more complicated. Your welds look like Thai welds, which is shit! If welding was so easy, no one would have to go to trade school. 

[mogandave]

First off, someone learning to weld, does not start building things! You start off doing horizontal welds, then work up to vertical, and then you can try more complicated. Your welds look like Thai welds, which is shit! If welding was so easy, no one would have to go to trade school. 

We train people and can have them MIG welding product by the end of a day if they’re going to get it. If they don’t get it in a couple days we move them to another department.

[Damrongsak]

Here's a good discussion of a 6013 slag problem and suggestions.  See the pics of bad and good weld after following sugestions.  http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?52028-6013-stick-problems

 

6013 has heavy slag. Don't let the slag puddle get ahead of you and watch the rod angle.   Keep a short arc - drag if necessary.  My kid did this when taking welding classes.  Probably a 1/8" rod.  AC current is in between DC+ and DC- as far as melt off and penetration.  This sample was done vertical down at 135 Amps, though it is a bit thicker metal.   He said he just sort of stuffed the rod in there and dragged down quickly like pulling down a zipper.  Concave bead and oh-so-smooth. 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Damrongsak

[superal]

On 5/3/2018 at 10:58 PM, mogandave said:

 

We train people and can have them MIG welding product by the end of a day if they’re going to get it. If they don’t get it in a couple days we move them to another department.

 

MIG welding is good in  skilled hands as I am sure you know but in the amateur hands a weld can be made that is visually good but structurally defective due to lack of fusion . L.O.F is a common defect with MIG , even with coded welders but with stick , MMA , less of a problem if welding spec is followed . Can be Googled .

I have found that the material  is commonly thin gauge , for house construction ,  from the Thai suppliers so a set up that has been cleaned of paint and rust , plus a tight fit will help .  

Unless I missed it the op does not detail the welding set , which can have some effect on the quality and mode of application .

[Khun Jean]

Went through the same stages.

I have a small machine that can plasma cut/stick weld and TIG weld.

After stick welding a large amount of square tubing i keep having the same problems. Corners welds in particular are difficult and i blew to many holes in the thin tubing. Too much inclusions also.

After a while i thought, i go buy some argon gas and try TIG welding.

This doesn't use any kind of 'flux' and is super clean. There is no slack covering the puddle, nothing, Just a puddle of molten metal in plain sight. A dramatic difference as now i was able to clearly see the puddle.

After about 5-6 hours i had better welds then weeks of stick welding.

As i am not interested in heavy duty and very thick or dirty materials i find TIG the best.

MIG is just to uncommon in Thailand otherwise i would have started with that.

Never saw a machine and never saw supplies.

 

[superal]

3 minutes ago, Khun Jean said:

Went through the same stages.

I have a small machine that can plasma cut/stick weld and TIG weld.

After stick welding a large amount of square tubing i keep having the same problems. Corners welds in particular are difficult and i blew to many holes in the thin tubing. Too much inclusions also.

After a while i thought, i go buy some argon gas and try TIG welding.

This doesn't use any kind of 'flux' and is super clean. There is no slack covering the puddle, nothing, Just a puddle of molten metal in plain sight. A dramatic difference as now i was able to clearly see the puddle.

After about 5-6 hours i had better welds then weeks of stick welding.

As i am not interested in heavy duty and very thick or dirty materials i find TIG the best.

MIG is just to uncommon in Thailand otherwise i would have started with that.

Never saw a machine and never saw supplies.

 

TIG welding is a skill that is not easily attained especially in a coded mode . Can suffer from the same LOF defects as MIG and also porosity . However in  a non critical application a pleasing finish can be produced that may be suitable for the job especially with thin gauge metals as the heat input is easier to control . Once mastered TIG welding can be enjoyable , to stand back and admire your work is rewarding .