The New Thai Landlord-Tenant Code

[pookiki]

Effective today (1 May), the new Thai Landlord-Tenant Code becomes effective. After reading numerous articles on the provisions of the new law, it is my understanding that the law forbids landlords from charging tenants more for electricity or water than the actual charges for such services from the relevant government water and electric authorities - in Bangkok the MEA is the relevant electrical authority and the MWA is the relevant water authority.

 

Yesterday, my landlord issued a notice that electric rates and water rates would be lowered one baht per 'unit' which results in a charge of 5 baht per unit for electricity + VAT and 19 baht per unit for water + VAT.

 

The following link is for the MEA which contains the method for determining the appropriate charge for electricity for various types of establishments. However, it is not clear to me which rate is applicable to apartment buildings.

http://www.mea.or.th/en/aboutelectric/116/280/form/11

 

The following link is for the MWA and it would appear that all rates for water are uniform irrespective of the type of establishment.

https://www.mwa.co.th/ewtadmin/ewt/mwa_internet_eng/ewt_news.php?nid=309

 

Are other members on this forum being advised of new rates electric and water rates applicable to their apartment and are landlords providing information on how the new rates were established?  If anyone has specific information on the applicable electric and water rates for apartments, it would be very useful in discussing this with my building owner.

 

 

[jackdd]

There was some extension to the law which allows the landlord to charge up to a maximum of 20% more than the government rate for maintenance.

But as far as i understand it these have to be real costs. So you can just ask your landlord to present you the bills for last month or year to prove that he really paid this.

So let us know what your landlord said after you asked him about this.

[InMyShadow]

5 condos to qualify. NOT every landlord

[jackdd]

1 minute ago, InMyShadow said:

5 condos to qualify. NOT every landlord

I've never seen a condo yet where you not pay directly to the government

 

OP said apartment and not condo, so he is obviously talking about an apartment, which for sure has 5 or more units. And if the landlord would not have had to abide to the law he would not have changed anything.

[InMyShadow]

Hey was talking apartments. I'm talking condos. I've seen plenty of over charge on condos.

I've never seen a condo yet where you not pay directly to the government
 
OP said apartment and not condo, so he is obviously talking about an apartment, which for sure has 5 or more units. And if the landlord would not have had to abide to the law he would not have changed anything.

[pookiki]

43 minutes ago, jackdd said:

There was some extension to the law which allows the landlord to charge up to a maximum of 20% more than the government rate for maintenance.

But as far as i understand it these have to be real costs. So you can just ask your landlord to present you the bills for last month or year to prove that he really paid this.

So let us know what your landlord said after you asked him about this.

In an email to my landlord, I did ask to see the MEA bill the apartment building receives and this was greeted with the response 'just trust me'.

 

In all the articles that I have read in English about the new law, there was no mention of the 20% for maintenance costs for electricity or water.  But, I still don't know for sure what rate the MEA or MWA charges apartment owners.   Do you have that information?

[jackdd]

8 minutes ago, pookiki said:

In an email to my landlord, I did ask to see the MEA bill the apartment building receives and this was greeted with the response 'just trust me'.

 

In all the articles that I have read in English about the new law, there was no mention of the 20% for maintenance costs for electricity or water.  But, I still don't know for sure what rate the MEA or MWA charges apartment owners.   Do you have that information?

 

I also don't know yet what apartment owners really get charged, i rent a house and pay directly to the government, let's see what your landlord says

Here the news regarding the 20% https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1035593-ocpb-vows-to-deal-with-unscrupulous-property-owners/

[pookiki]

14 minutes ago, jackdd said:

 

I also don't know yet what apartment owners really get charged, i rent a house and pay directly to the government, let's see what your landlord says

Here the news regarding the 20% https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1035593-ocpb-vows-to-deal-with-unscrupulous-property-owners/

Thanks for the link to the other thread. As with some poster there, I feel to see how the OCPB can amend a law 'by announcement' that has already been gazetted. But TIT. I'm sure stranger things have happened.

 

I don't understand why landlords are so prone to make utilities a profit center.  At my apartment building the charges for parking spaces are unreasonably low and rents could be adjusted modestly to offset any losses by the new law.  I just resent being 'nickeled and dimed' over what should be a 'pass-through' utility fee.  Of course, it gets more complicated for the owner if the MEA and MWA rates are actually based on usage or time of usage rates as opposed to a flat rate.  And the landlord is charging VAT on the entire fee as well.  

[jackdd]

The problem as an apartment owner is that everybody was doing it.

Iet's say i would have an apartment which is equal to somebody else's apartment. The other apartment charges 10k per month and 8THB for electricity. I charge 11k per month and 4THB for electricity. For people who use their Aircon my apartment would be cheaper. But a new tenant sees just the higher base rent and would pay more attention to the other apartment (Does apply especially to Thais even more than to foreigners), and in the end the other apartment would have more tenants.

[pookiki]

11 hours ago, jackdd said:

The problem as an apartment owner is that everybody was doing it.

Iet's say i would have an apartment which is equal to somebody else's apartment. The other apartment charges 10k per month and 8THB for electricity. I charge 11k per month and 4THB for electricity. For people who use their Aircon my apartment would be cheaper. But a new tenant sees just the higher base rent and would pay more attention to the other apartment (Does apply especially to Thais even more than to foreigners), and in the end the other apartment would have more tenants.

The basic problem is whether my landlord will be willing to disclose the water and electricity rates as billed to her.  Without that information it is impossible to determine whether the 'new' rates are in conformance with the law or not.  In addition, if the rates as billed to my landlord are inclusive of VAT, I think it would be improper to charge VAT, again.  I will keep trying to see if I can obtain the MEA and MWA rates in other ways.

[tigermoth]

My apartment owner has informed the tenents of the following -

rent increased by 200 baht for those with two people. It is increased to 250 bht for 3 people and 300 bht for 4 or more persons.

 

Note that it was recently increased by 500 bht a month brfore the new law was announced.

 

The electricity charge was 7 bht per unit. The new charge is 4 bht per unit plus 2 bht per unit to cover outside lighting, security cameras and water pump electricity use.

Water use charge was 150 bht per month total standard charge. This has been done away with.

 

It is quite clear that the owner is still overcharging in a round about way and I am sure that the vast majority of apartment owners will.

 

 

[pookiki]

11 minutes ago, tigermoth said:

My apartment owner has informed the tenents of the following -

rent increased by 200 baht for those with two people. It is increased to 250 bht for 3 people and 300 bht for 4 or more persons.

 

Note that it was recently increased by 500 bht a month brfore the new law was announced.

 

The electricity charge was 7 bht per unit. The new charge is 4 bht per unit plus 2 bht per unit to cover outside lighting, security cameras and water pump electricity use.

Water use charge was 150 bht per month total standard charge. This has been done away with.

 

It is quite clear that the owner is still overcharging in a round about way and I am sure that the vast majority of apartment owners will.

 

 

Interesting!  It might me interpolated that the 4 baht per unit charge for electricity, excluding the common use charges of 2 baht, would be the MWA charge to apartment owners with VAT. This would mean under the OCPB announcement would allow only a maximum of 4.8 baht charge per unit of electricity.  I certainly hope that there are some Thai tenants that are concerned enough about this situation to file complaints with the OCPB over utility charges. Apartment owners must learn that they must be transparent about the manner in which they pass on utility charges to their tenants.  I know - I'm dreaming! Thanks for this info.

[jackdd]

13 minutes ago, tigermoth said:

plus 2 bht per unit to cover outside lighting, security cameras and water pump electricity use

This doesn't make sense and is also not allowed

[HampiK]

5 minutes ago, pookiki said:

Interesting!  It might me interpolated that the 4 baht per unit charge for electricity, excluding the common use charges of 2 baht, would be the MWA charge to apartment owners with VAT. This would mean under the OCPB announcement would allow only a maximum of 4.8 baht charge per unit of electricity.  I certainly hope that there are some Thai tenants that are concerned enough about this situation to file complaints with the OCPB over utility charges. Apartment owners must learn that they must be transparent about the manner in which they pass on utility charges to their tenants.  I know - I'm dreaming! Thanks for this info.

I guess nothing will change. Because if you not happy, that your landlord ask for too much you can move out and look for another place to rent. And this is what many thai-landlord thinking. If you not happy with them move out.

 

At the end you have to think if you want pay this amount or not. When you not happy with the price choose another room instead of trying to argue with the landlord. As if he loose profit because of this, I am sure he will find another way to compensate.

[pookiki]

1 minute ago, HampiK said:

I guess nothing will change. Because if you not happy, that your landlord ask for too much you can move out and look for another place to rent. And this is what many thai-landlord thinking. If you not happy with them move out.

 

At the end you have to think if you want pay this amount or not. When you not happy with the price choose another room instead of trying to argue with the landlord. As if he loose profit because of this, I am sure he will find another way to compensate.

I don't mind paying an increase in rent if it is an legal increase. Just follow the law.  I realize consumer rights in an emerging issue in Thailand but landlords must accept that tenants have rights, too.

 

[jackdd]

1 minute ago, pookiki said:

I don't mind paying an increase in rent if it is an legal increase. Just follow the law.  I realize consumer rights in an emerging issue in Thailand but landlords must accept that tenants have rights, too.

 

A legal increase in rent is not possible in any way while you have a valid contract, unless a rent increase is stated in your contract. So if you signed a 12 months contract 2 months ago he can't increase your rent for the next 10 months

But after the 6 or 12 months of the initial contract is over most contracts are extended on a month by month basis. Of course then the landlord can increase the rent in the next month and you have the option to move out.

[HampiK]

1 minute ago, pookiki said:

I don't mind paying an increase in rent if it is an legal increase. Just follow the law.  I realize consumer rights in an emerging issue in Thailand but landlords must accept that tenants have rights, too.

 

I agree with you, but Thailand still need a long way till situations like this changed completely.

And who knows. Maybe your bill is correct. 

For my condo I pay between 3.5 and 4 baht per kWh. But this is directly to the Electric company.

[pookiki]

2 minutes ago, jackdd said:

A legal increase in rent is not possible in any way while you have a valid contract, unless a rent increase is stated in your contract. So if you signed a 12 months contract 2 months ago he can't increase your rent for the next 10 months

But after the 6 or 12 months of the initial contract is over most contracts are extended on a month by month basis. Of course then the landlord can increase the rent in the next month and you have the option to move out.

Good point.  Then the way for the landlord to recoup losses is to charge new renters a higher rate.  Under the new landlord tenant law, landlords are to issue new contracts to all tenants that incorporate the new provisions of the law. I don't see that happening any time soon. I have had the same contract in place since December, 2011.  I also paid two months' deposit and I should get a refund under the new law as well.

[robblok]

4 minutes ago, jackdd said:

A legal increase in rent is not possible in any way while you have a valid contract, unless a rent increase is stated in your contract. So if you signed a 12 months contract 2 months ago he can't increase your rent for the next 10 months

But after the 6 or 12 months of the initial contract is over most contracts are extended on a month by month basis. Of course then the landlord can increase the rent in the next month and you have the option to move out.

To be honest i find the law change unfair to people renting out units (I don't) They made their price (lower rent higher utilities) based on an amount they wanted to get from their place. Then all of a sudden the government outlaws it and they are not allowed to make up for the difference.

 

I don't agree with the pricing structure but those who are in those condo's did agree to it. Now all of a sudden the landlord has to take the hit. Had he known this before he would have used an other pricing structure (higher rent)

[nickmondo]

45 minutes ago, tigermoth said:

My apartment owner has informed the tenents of the following -

rent increased by 200 baht for those with two people. It is increased to 250 bht for 3 people and 300 bht for 4 or more persons.

 

Note that it was recently increased by 500 bht a month brfore the new law was announced.

 

The electricity charge was 7 bht per unit. The new charge is 4 bht per unit plus 2 bht per unit to cover outside lighting, security cameras and water pump electricity use.

Water use charge was 150 bht per month total standard charge. This has been done away with.

 

It is quite clear that the owner is still overcharging in a round about way and I am sure that the vast majority of apartment owners will.

 

 

your landlord is in breach of the contract if he puts your rent up during the term of the contract.  Or at least he will be if you have a properly written contract

 

[jackdd]

18 minutes ago, robblok said:

To be honest i find the law change unfair to people renting out units (I don't) They made their price (lower rent higher utilities) based on an amount they wanted to get from their place. Then all of a sudden the government outlaws it and they are not allowed to make up for the difference.

 

I don't agree with the pricing structure but those who are in those condo's did agree to it. Now all of a sudden the landlord has to take the hit. Had he known this before he would have used an other pricing structure (higher rent)

Things are unfair in Thailand... so mean...

The law was finalized and published in February, that's nearly 3 months ago, every new contract since then should respect the new laws already.

And i'm quite sure that also in Thailand a law is not set up in a month or two. As a responsible (haha, good joke?) apartment owner they should of course keep them self updated about changes in laws regarding their business, i'm quite sure that it was very well possible to see where this new law is headed and make changes to contracts well in advance since last year already.

Obviously the apartment owners waited until the last day, but that's really their problem then

 

For anybody who inquires his landlord regarding the cost of the fees and if the landlord doesn't want to provide the requested information:

From the original law: http://www.ratchakitcha.soc.go.th/DATA/PDF/2561/E/035/12.PDF

ผู้ประกอบธุรกิจต้องส่งใบแจ้งหนี้ตามรายการ (๑) ฉ. ถึง ฌ. ให้ผู้เช่าทราบล่วงหน้า ไม่น้อยกว่าเจ็ดวันก่อนถึงกําหนดวันชําระค่าเช่าอาคาร โดยผู้เช่ามีสิทธิตรวจสอบข้อมูลเกี่ยวกับค่าใช้จ่าย ดังกล่าวซึ่งปรากฏตามรายการในใบแจ้งหนี้ที่ผู้ประกอบธุรกิจเรียกเก็บ

This says something like: The tenant has the right to examine the data regarding his electricity / water bill

So the landlord has to give you this information.

[edwardandtubs]

The most interesting thing is that they can only ask for one month's deposit. The only thing is I always rent condos and the new law doesn't apply to them unless the landlord has more than 5. Perhaps it will have a knock-on effect though and all landlords will choose to only ask for one month.

[lamyai3]

18 hours ago, edwardandtubs said:

The most interesting thing is that they can only ask for one month's deposit. The only thing is I always rent condos and the new law doesn't apply to them unless the landlord has more than 5. Perhaps it will have a knock-on effect though and all landlords will choose to only ask for one month.

Any experiences on here of tenants successfully reducing the usual two months deposit to one, or offsetting a previously paid two month deposit against a month rent? 

[natway09]

This thread is getting bigger than Ben Hur.

Always remember that if the Landlord does not want you in his premises, he or she will find a way to get you out

[pookiki]

I talked with a landlord who is a personal acquaintance and who I have known for a number of years. He is fairly up and up with his tenants.  I asked him what he is billed from MEA and MWA for electricity and water.  He told me that his electric charge was about 4.0 baht per unit for electricity and varies a bit because of the gas tariff (ft) and his water charge was about 16.75 baht per unit.  He said that the water charges are based on usage and that smaller buildings would pay less than the rate for his building which is fairly large.  So, the bottom line is that unless you know what MEA and MWA are billing your landlord, there is no way to know if the charges being imposed on tenants is correct with the allowable 20% add on for maintenance.

[pookiki]

On 5/2/2018 at 9:42 AM, jackdd said:

A legal increase in rent is not possible in any way while you have a valid contract, unless a rent increase is stated in your contract. So if you signed a 12 months contract 2 months ago he can't increase your rent for the next 10 months

But after the 6 or 12 months of the initial contract is over most contracts are extended on a month by month basis. Of course then the landlord can increase the rent in the next month and you have the option to move out.

Jackdd,

 

I have a Thai friend who sent me this link to a page on the OCPB website.  She told me that it says landlords cannot charge more than 3.9 baht per unit for electricity and not more than 7 baht per unit for water.  My Thai is not good enough to verify the content of the content.  Can you verify this?

 

http://www.ocpb.go.th/news_view.php?nid=8874

 

I used the 3.9 figure for electricity, added VAT (7%) and the service charge (20%) and it comes out to 5.0 baht -- the price noted by my landlord except my landlord wants to add another 7% VAT. I haven't dealt with the water, yet.

[jackdd]

I only understand parts of it, but i'm quite sure that there is no mentioning of specific numbers (like 3.9 or 7). The bold text in the second paragraph says something like: The landlord may only charge his real costs and these costs have to be reasonable

7 THB for water would probably also be too low, here in Udon i pay something like 14 or 15 THB for water.

 

[edwardandtubs]

33 minutes ago, pookiki said:

 

 

I used the 3.9 figure for electricity, added VAT (7%) and the service charge (20%) and it comes out to 5.0 baht -- the price noted by my landlord except my landlord wants to add another 7% VAT. I haven't dealt with the water, yet.

 

Clearly the 20% service charge is against the new rules. A lot of Thais think they can evade the law just by giving things their own labels. For example, I once had a landlady who thought she could evade tax by having two contracts, one for the room and another for the furniture. Your so-called service charge is a nonsense because there's no reason you should be paying more based on how much electricity you use.

[pookiki]

10 minutes ago, edwardandtubs said:

 

Clearly the 20% service charge is against the new rules. A lot of Thais think they can evade the law just by giving things their own labels. For example, I once had a landlady who thought she could evade tax by having two contracts, one for the room and another for the furniture. Your so-called service charge is a nonsense because there's no reason you should be paying more based on how much electricity you use.

I'm sorry, I may have used the wrong terminology.  If you notice earlier in the thread, the  OCPB Chairman issued an announcement that landlords could add 20% maintenance fees to the water and electric charges. There is a link to that announcement on another thread.

[pookiki]

24 minutes ago, jackdd said:

I only understand parts of it, but i'm quite sure that there is no mentioning of specific numbers (like 3.9 or 7). The bold text in the second paragraph says something like: The landlord may only charge his real costs and these costs have to be reasonable

7 THB for water would probably also be too low, here in Udon i pay something like 14 or 15 THB for water.

 

I'm thinking my friend may have made a typo and it should be 17 baht per unit. But adding VAT and the maintenance fee would bring the figure to 21.8 baht for water -- well above the 19 baht quoted by my landlord.