Marx's German birthplace unveils controversial statue of him

[rooster59]

Marx's German birthplace unveils controversial statue of him

 

The 4.4 metres (14 feet) high bronze statue of Karl Marx, created by Chinese artist Wu Weishan and donated by China to mark the 200th birth anniversary of the German philosopher, is seen in his hometown Trier, Germany May 5, 2018. REUTERS/Wolfgang Rattay

 

TRIER, Germany (Reuters) - Protesters held banners reading "Down with capitalism" and "Father of all dictators" at Saturday's unveiling of a statue of Karl Marx in the German city of Trier, reflecting the polarising legacy of the philosopher in his birthplace and beyond.

 

The bronze sculpture, which towers over 5 metres (16 feet) high including the plinth, is a gift from China to mark Saturday's 200th birthday of the founder of Communism.

 

Marx spent the first 17 years of his life in Trier, a small town on the Moselle River in Germany's far west.

 

Many see the post-World War Two division of Germany and the erection of the Berlin Wall to divide the Communist east from the capitalist West as a result of his ideas, but Trier mayor Wolfram Leibe said historical controversies should be acknowledged.

 

"In Germany, we have this situation again and again with difficult, complex personalities of history - we want to hide them in the woods," he said. "So it was a conscious act to bring Karl Marx into the city ... We don't have to hide him."

 

The city council voted to accept the gift from the Chinese government by 42 members to seven in March 2017.

 

While some see it as recognition of Trier's most famous son, others argue that accepting the gift from China is not compatible with criticising human rights abuses there.

 

Since 2015, China's President Xi Jinping has presided over a widespread crackdown on human rights activists.

 

The statue depicts a thoughtful Marx, holding a book in one hand.

 

"Yes, we stand by the child of our city. And we deal with Karl Marx in a constructive and active way," said Malu Dreyer, premier of the state of Rhineland-Palatinate, to which Trier belongs. "We are glad to receive this present, this gesture of friendship."

 

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-05-05

[canuckamuck]

Marx's legacy includes way more deaths that Hitler, unless you want to pin all of the WW2 deaths on him. 

It is fascinating that his popularity is rising once again. Have a look at all the regimes that chased after Marx's utopia through theft. It is nothing but gravestones, oppression and, a much larger gulf between the ruling class and the poor (European states are not true socialist economies).

Marxism is the opiate of the intellectual and the lazy.

Edited May 5, 2018 by canuckamuck

[faraday]

What's next?

 

A statue of Pol Pot?

 

Ridiculous.

[tifino]

A Statue! Of him!  Of them... 

 

I would have thought a Bust? 

 

No wait!  On 3rd thoughts erect a Posterior!

  - as that is where it all came back and bit him....

A bit like all the pretenders of his ilke that followed on after him 

Edited May 6, 2018 by tifino

[alocacoc]

When people are surprised about this statue, they just didn't do their homework.

Sent from a so called Smartphone using an App.

[canuckamuck]

1 minute ago, alocacoc said:

When people are surprised about this statue, they just didn't do their homework.

Sent from a so called Smartphone using an App.
 

You going to share your notes?

[underlordcthulhu]

Pure evil. 

[JingerBen]

Another hideous monument to an ideology that took the place of a religion.

[DoctorG]

Marxism is alive and well throughout Western colleges.

[stevenl]

36 minutes ago, DoctorG said:

Marxism is alive and well throughout Western colleges.

As it should be.

 

So far the posters here have no clue about Marx's ideas.

[sukhumvitneon]

6 minutes ago, stevenl said:

As it should be.

 

So far the posters here have no clue about Marx's ideas.

Let me guess.

 

Real communism was never tried, right?

[canuckamuck]

27 minutes ago, stevenl said:

As it should be.

 

So far the posters here have no clue about Marx's ideas.

How's this: Despite the fact that the capitalists were instrumental in transitioning the world from feudalism, They have now become too powerful and control the means of production without giving a fair share to the workers. Therefore we should take the means of production away from them and give everyone equal shares (except the capitalists because we will kill them and throw their families in slave labor camps). Because when we all have the same stuff it will all be unicorns and rainbows, and no way anyone will try to gain control of it and act in anyway unfairly to the other happy humans. What could go wrong?

[RuamRudy]

26 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

How's this: Despite the fact that the capitalists were instrumental in transitioning the world from feudalism, They have now become too powerful and control the means of production without giving a fair share to the workers. Therefore we should take the means of production away from them and give everyone equal shares (except the capitalists because we will kill them and throw their families in slave labor camps). Because when we all have the same stuff it will all be unicorns and rainbows, and no way anyone will try to gain control of it and act in anyway unfairly to the other happy humans. What could go wrong?

You seem to suggest that there is only an extreme left or what we have now in the west - varying flavours right. Clearly what we have now is failing the majority (I don't consider basic sustenance shrouding a creeping, covert reduction of liberties anything other than failure, I am afraid). It seems obvious that many will lurch to the opposite end of the spectrum when they wake up to the inequality that our current systems create. The hard left may be bad, but what we have now is a disaster for so many. Things must change for everybody or more and more will turn to extremism.

Edited May 6, 2018 by RuamRudy

[faraday]

22 minutes ago, sukhumvitneon said:

Let me guess.

 

Real communism was never tried, right?

And nobody died, it was all peace & love.

 

 

[canuckamuck]

19 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You seem to suggest that there is only an extreme left or what we have now in the west - varying flavours right. Clearly what we have now is failing the majority (I don't consider basic sustenance shrouding a creeping, covert reduction of liberties anything other than failure, I am afraid). It seems obvious that many will lurch to the opposite end of the spectrum when the wake up to the inequality that our current systems create. The hard left may be bad, but what we have now is a disaster for so many. Things must change for everybody or more and more will turn to extremism.

Your straw man is not even in the playing field. I was describing Marx ideas not my own

 And the quality of life is massively better the world over, than it was in Marx's time, thanks to capitalism and the free market. So I can't see how you can imagine that things aren't working. And they would working even better if the left would quit pushing the red herring of victimization and oppression. The same thing that Marx used to base his genocidal ideology.

[puck2]

Again and again stupidity and prejudice prevail in most comments (until #15) when they hear or read the derivations of „communism“. For those who like to read more than the headlines, pleas look here about the life of Karl Marx →

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx

 

Marx's life is like a coin with two sides. Let me relate to the positive one. He was aware of the new industrialization with its abusive capitalistic results.

 

Quote

...

Marx actively pressed for its (=classless communist society) implementation, arguing that the working class should carry out organised revolutionary action to topple capitalism and bring about socio-economic emancipation.

 

 

That his ideas have bee abused by many leaders (Lenin, Stalin, Mao … the list goes on) for dictatorships isn't Marx's fault. If you think yes, than you should make Jesus Christ responsible for all the incredible cruelties made in his name and his new religion re. philosophy since the year zero. It's recognized worldwide that Marx's ideas developed as a wakening call against the negative, abusive consequences of extreme capitalism/money.

 

You may have pro, anti or mixed feelings and ideas about Marx. You cannot deny that he gave useful ideas against the inhuman results of capitalism.

 

Therefore I agree with the people of Trier allowing the Chinese to donate a statue of Marx in the town of his birthplace. Many late world leaders have had an inconsistent character, but are remembered by statues. Lincoln, not a „negro“ lover, is one example out of many.

 

Edited May 6, 2018 by puck2

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, canuckamuck said:

Your straw man is not even in the playing field. I was describing Marx ideas not my own

 And the quality of life is massively better the world over, than it was in Marx's time, thanks to capitalism and the free market. So I can't see how you can imagine that things aren't working. And they would working even better if the left would quit pushing the red herring of victimization and oppression. The same thing that Marx used to base his genocidal ideology.

And that, indeed, sums up the thinking of so many - levels of TB, polio, hunger etc are dropping so the masses should shut up and be grateful.

 

Nobody is denying that huge improvements in living standards are being enjoyed by most of the world, but this wasn't achieved through our current version of capitalism. Do you really think that how we operate our economies today is how Adam Smith described the free market? As the world has transitioned from feudalism, true capitalism has been slowly subsumed; replaced with oligarchical, self serving organisations that seek only to embelish themselves and their small coterie of leaders.

 

And again, you blame the left - and you are correct to a point. The left is still paying the price for the grotesque excesses of trade unionism in the 70s, but nobody holds the extreme right to account. Think how much better we would be if those owners of the means of production didn't horde all their money in Panamanian bank accounts or use it to buy gold plated yachts. What if a little of it was spent improving the lives of the many?

 

[KhunBENQ]

"Beware of Greeks Chinese bearing gifts"

 

[canuckamuck]

9 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

And that, indeed, sums up the thinking of so many - levels of TB, polio, hunger etc are dropping so the masses should shut up and be grateful.

 

Nobody is denying that huge improvements in living standards are being enjoyed by most of the world, but this wasn't achieved through our current version of capitalism. Do you really think that how we operate our economies today is how Adam Smith described the free market? As the world has transitioned from feudalism, true capitalism has been slowly subsumed; replaced with oligarchical, self serving organisations that seek only to embelish themselves and their small coterie of leaders.

 

And again, you blame the left - and you are correct to a point. The left is still paying the price for the grotesque excesses of trade unionism in the 70s, but nobody holds the extreme right to account. Think how much better we would be if those owners of the means of production didn't horde all their money in Panamanian bank accounts or use it to buy gold plated yachts. What if a little of it was spent improving the lives of the many?

 

The system that created the high standards of living is the free market system. All attempts to punish the rich for their success have resulted in massive suffering, failed nations, and dictatorships. 

Is the world unfair? Of course it is, but it is less unfair than it was in Marx day. There will always be people who have it all and are unwilling to share (is that wrong, do you want to share with me?). But it is better to cleanse the system by exposing conspiracy and unfair practice, than it is to inspire revolution. To do this the laws must apply to all and must still respect property rights and the right to wealth. The pursuit of wealth is the key to progress. Not that wealth is progress in itself, but that the pursuit of wealth inspires technology and better ideas.

Better ideas is true progressivism, What passes as progressive today is the destruction of foundations that got us where we are.

 

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

The system that created the high standards of living is the free market system. All attempts to punish the rich for their success have resulted in massive suffering, failed nations, and dictatorships. 

Is the world unfair? Of course it is, but it is less unfair than it was in Marx day. There will always be people who have it all and are unwilling to share (is that wrong, do you want to share with me?). But it is better to cleanse the system by exposing conspiracy and unfair practice, than it is to inspire revolution. To do this the laws must apply to all and must still respect property rights and the right to wealth. The pursuit of wealth is the key to progress. Not that wealth is progress in itself, but that the pursuit of wealth inspires technology and better ideas.

Better ideas is true progressivism, What passes as progressive today is the destruction of foundations that got us where we are.

 

I am certainly not talking about punishing success. I agree with you that the fruits of success are goals that fuel ambition and creativity. But the free market system you mention is not free. It is a game that has been rigged to benefit those at the top - the laws do not apply to all.

 

Why do small businesses, for example, have to pay corporation tax whereas the multinationals like Google, Starbucks, etc have special arrangements to offshore their profits to tax advantageous locations and import their costs thus reducing or even negating entirely their tax obligations on their actual profits? That is one single example of the corruption of the system, which has a negative impact upon progress and inovation.

 

 

[canuckamuck]

25 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I am certainly not talking about punishing success. I agree with you that the fruits of success are goals that fuel ambition and creativity. But the free market system you mention is not free. It is a game that has been rigged to benefit those at the top - the laws do not apply to all.

 

Why do small businesses, for example, have to pay corporation tax whereas the multinationals like Google, Starbucks, etc have special arrangements to offshore their profits to tax advantageous locations and import their costs thus reducing or even negating entirely their tax obligations on their actual profits? That is one single example of the corruption of the system, which has a negative impact upon progress and inovation.

 

 

I agree the system is rigged. It doesn't make Marx's ideology any less destructive. Socialism will not cure corruption at high levels, it will only change the players.

[CharlesSwann]

My perspective on Marx's legacy: The freedom of the system is always limited by the sophistication of the people. Free markets are not possible with sufficient regulation to prevent the inevitable corruption. It took a long sweep of history for societies to reach that stage. Marxism had its moment along the way, but the moment quickly passed. The theory in itself was well-meaning but utopian. Marx had no grasp of human nature and communism was such a colossal failure in practice that he has no right to anything now but contempt.

[Expatthailover]

6 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

Marx's legacy includes way more deaths that Hitler, unless you want to pin all of the WW2 deaths on him. 

It is fascinating that his popularity is rising once again. Have a look at all the regimes that chased after Marx's utopia through theft. It is nothing but gravestones, oppression and, a much larger gulf between the ruling class and the poor (European states are not true socialist economies).

Marxism is the opiate of the intellectual and the lazy.

Well on that impeccable logic one could lambast henry ford as motor vehicles have caused the death of more us citizens than war.

Oh how about 90% of people who have been killed in air craft crashes have eaten carrots.

Lets ban carrots eh

[stevenl]

2 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

How's this: Despite the fact that the capitalists were instrumental in transitioning the world from feudalism, They have now become too powerful and control the means of production without giving a fair share to the workers. Therefore we should take the means of production away from them and give everyone equal shares (except the capitalists because we will kill them and throw their families in slave labor camps). Because when we all have the same stuff it will all be unicorns and rainbows, and no way anyone will try to gain control of it and act in anyway unfairly to the other happy humans. What could go wrong?

As I said " So far the posters here have no clue about Marx's ideas. ".

 

His accumulation and concentration theory is very much what is happening at the moment: big companies are getting bigger and bigger by taking over smaller companies, thereby concentrating capital. The 80 richest people in the world owe the same as 3,5 billion others, in the USA 1% of the population has 20% of the national income. The victory of capitalism in 1989 has lead to an ever increasing amount of flex workers, independent workers and an underclass without any chances. Marx predicted this, except for the way in which we would get here.

 

And even more fundamental was his criticism of the capitalist spirit and yearn for money and more and more: personal freedom has been lost. It is all about money and power.

Edited May 6, 2018 by stevenl

[RuamRudy]

13 minutes ago, CharlesSwann said:

My perspective on Marx's legacy: The freedom of the system is always limited by the sophistication of the people. Free markets are not possible with sufficient regulation to prevent the inevitable corruption. It took a long sweep of history for societies to reach that stage. Marxism had its moment along the way, but the moment quickly passed. The theory in itself was well-meaning but utopian. Marx had no grasp of human nature and communism was such a colossal failure in practice that he has no right to anything now but contempt.

When I studied economics, the Tragedy of the Commons was presented as a case against collectivism, however I think the underlying principles can be applied to many human endeavours. Ultimately, greed and self-interest will despoil the purest of notions. It seems to me that Phillip Larkin said it best: Man hands on misery to man, It deepens like a coastal shelf...

[Jingthing]

One of the most important intellectuals in the history of the world. His ideas are still very relevant today. People that compare him to Stalin are total ignoramuses.

 

People that demonize him -- have you even read and studied any of his important original texts? I seriously doubt it. 

Edited May 6, 2018 by Jingthing

[canuckamuck]

24 minutes ago, stevenl said:

As I said " So far the posters here have no clue about Marx's ideas. ".

 

His accumulation and concentration theory is very much what is happening at the moment: big companies are getting bigger and bigger by taking over smaller companies, thereby concentrating capital. The 80 richest people in the world owe the same as 3,5 billion others, in the USA 1% of the population has 20% of the national income. The victory of capitalism in 1989 has lead to an ever increasing amount of flex workers, independent workers and an underclass without any chances. Marx predicted this, except for the way in which we would get here.

 

And even more fundamental was his criticism of the capitalist spirit and yearn for money and more and more: personal freedom has been lost. It is all about money and power.

So are you making a trip to Venezuela soon to experience the latest rendition of Marx in action.

[canuckamuck]

13 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

One of the most important intellectuals in the history of the world. His ideas are still very relevant today. People that compare him to Stalin are total ignoramuses.

 

People that demonize him -- have you even read and studied any of his important original texts? I seriously doubt it. 

The Communist manifesto is a pretty simple read. I have read it twice and can see that it is based primarily on a misunderstanding of human nature and unrealistic idealism, with a healthy dose of jealousy and ingratitude.

[blazes]

2 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

Your straw man is not even in the playing field. I was describing Marx ideas not my own

 And the quality of life is massively better the world over, than it was in Marx's time, thanks to capitalism and the free market. So I can't see how you can imagine that things aren't working. And they would working even better if the left would quit pushing the red herring of victimization and oppression. The same thing that Marx used to base his genocidal ideology.

 

Ironic that this particular edition of ThaiVisa headlined the massive toxic plastic waste that afflicts the Gulf of Thailand (and the world's oceans generally), and yet here you are smugly congratulating the capitalist world on being so incredibly superior to the Victorian world of Marx and Engels.  

  Look around you, whether in Thailand or, if you are a Canuck, have a look at Trudeau and his soft-in-the-head liberalism, and tell us all that these countries are "working" well.  Take a look at the murderous foreign policy of the USA in the last 50 years, especially in the Middle East, and take a look at the war criminal, Blair, who assured us all that Iraq had 'weapons of mass destruction' (as if nuclear weapons had never been invented.)

To blame Marx for how others have used his analysis of history is like blaming Henry Vlll for the pedophilia of thousands of Catholic priests ...absurd.

[canuckamuck]

29 minutes ago, Expatthailover said:

Well on that impeccable logic one could lambast henry ford as motor vehicles have caused the death of more us citizens than war.

Oh how about 90% of people who have been killed in air craft crashes have eaten carrots.

Lets ban carrots eh

Perhaps one of the most disconnected and illogical replies I have read. 

BTW Henry Ford was awarded the Nazis highest medal for a non German.

Only 2.5 million people have been killed in automobile crashes so far.

Henry Ford didn't invent the motor car.

Nearly 100% (not 90%) of people who have died in airplane crashes have eaten carrots. But this is also true of people who have never been in an air crash. It could be surmised that carrots will not save you from an aviation disaster, but the odds are in favor of not being in a crash if you have eaten carrots.