me leasing the wife's house

[Russell17au]

My wife and I are in the process of buying a house and I know that a farang cannot own land in Thailand. My question is that naturally the property is in my wifes name is it legal for me as a farang to lease the property from my wife for say a period of 25 years

[bankruatsteve]

Now why would you want to do that?

[Esso49]

4 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

Now why would you want to do that?

"Why" was not the question the OP was asking ! Something you misread perhaps to divert from the original posters intent ?

 

The question was could he lease the house from his wife ?   The answer is yes but he would need to ensure that the leasing contract was translated correctly into English to avoid any future issues should they arise regarding the terms and conditions of the lease.

[cornishcarlos]

9 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

Now why would you want to do that?

 

I'm with this fella, why would you want to lease it ??

Does leasing it give you any more protection/rights in the future ??

 

Usufruct on the property would be the way to go...

[Russell17au]

Thank you bankruatsteve for your unintelligent answer and lack of help in this matter, you should really learn to read and have a bit more decency towards people who are asking legitimate questions and seeking help from others who may have the information needed that are willing to give the help and an intelligent useful answer.

cornishcarlos, At the moment we have a lease on the property where we are living and I used that lease document for my address change on the TM30 for immigration. I am not sure whether the usufruct will be acceptable by immigration for the change of address.

 

 

 

[bankruatsteve]

15 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Thank you bankruatsteve for your unintelligent answer and lack of help in this matter, you should really learn to read and have a bit more decency towards people who are asking legitimate questions and seeking help from others who may have the information needed that are willing to give the help and an intelligent useful answer.

 

I'm sorry you found my response confrontational as I actually was trying to help find the best answer for you.  In your OP, you say you (your wife) are buying property (assuming) where you will plan to live.  Then you say you want to lease it.  I think most people reading that would think it doesn't make sense and which is why I thought an explanation would help.  Now, you say you are concerned about the address change for immigration.  ??  There is no requirement that you have a lease for immigration.  It is simply the address that you actually reside and can be verified by a Thai national.

[MaeJoMTB]

5 hours ago, Esso49 said:

The question was could he lease the house from his wife ?   The answer is yes but he would need to ensure that the leasing contract was translated correctly into English to avoid any future issues should they arise regarding the terms and conditions of the lease.

Any legal contract between husband and wife may be cancelled unilaterally at any time by either party.

So the answer is, yes you can legally lease from your wife, but legally that lease is worthless as she can cancel it.

 

"Usufruct on the property would be the way to go."

Also may be cancelled at any time, so equally worthless.

 

I'm assuming this is a 'real' Amphur wife, and not a Village 'pretend' wife, as many foreigners seem to confuse the two.

Edited May 9, 2018 by MaeJoMTB

[Fruit Trader]

38 minutes ago, MaeJoMTB said:

"Usufruct on the property would be the way to go."

Also may be cancelled at any time, so equally worthless.

Usufruct

Does a wife require holders consent or some kind of court order to cancel?

[MaeJoMTB]

6 minutes ago, Fruit Trader said:

Usufruct

Does a wife require holders consent or some kind of court order to cancel?

Unilateral, she just needs to inform the land office, it's not even required she tells the husband.

(Some Land offices would require, a bribe, copy of marriage cert, request in writing, up to them, Thai rak Thai)

Edited May 9, 2018 by MaeJoMTB

[Fruit Trader]

11 minutes ago, MaeJoMTB said:

Unilateral, she just needs to inform the land office, it's not even required she tells the husband.

(Some Land offices would require, a bribe, copy of marriage cert, request in writing, up to them, Thai rak Thai)

So if the system were not corrupt (allow bribe at land office) and letter of the law followed the wife is not able to walk into a land office and simply cancel the husbands right.

 

Sorry if I sound confused, just trying to get a clear picture without bringing in corruption and bribes.

[jackdd]

If you buy a house consider it a present to your wife, as MaeJoMTB said already, you can lease it from your wife, but this contract is not worth anything.

But there is something else that you can do: Your wife buys the house on finance over 20 years, everything on her name, and you just pay the monthly rates. If you break up after 2 years you just paid the rates until then (theoretically you are also liable for this finance, but if you don't have any assets in Thailand they can't take it from you. So if she doesn't pay the rates the bank would repossess the house), if you stay together for 20 years it's hers, but that's probably ok then

(Theoretically after a divorce you are of course entitled to 50%, but if she has no money and the house is difficult to sell, what do you want to do....)

Edited May 9, 2018 by jackdd

[cornishcarlos]

1 hour ago, MaeJoMTB said:

"Usufruct on the property would be the way to go."

Also may be cancelled at any time, so equally worthless.

 

Not true... Well at least not true in the sense that it is worthless..

As pointed out in various threads on this subject, a usufruct will protect you from any relatives, that come sniffing, should your better half pass before you.

[Fruit Trader]

10 minutes ago, jackdd said:

If you buy a house consider it a present to your wife, as MaeJoMTB said already, you can lease it from your wife, but this contract is not worth anything.

But there is something else that you can do: Your wife buys the house on finance over 20 years, everything on her name, and you just pay the monthly rates. If you break up after 2 years you just paid the rates until then, if you stay together for 20 years it's hers, but that's probably ok then

(Theoretically after a divorce you are of course entitled to 50%, but if she has no money and the house is difficult to sell, what do you want to do....)

I don't have any rights as my ass is parked on the wife's family land but I do find this worthless lease business fascinating.

[jackdd]

1 minute ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

Not true... Well at least not true in the sense that it is worthless..

As pointed out in various threads on this subject, a usufruct will protect you from any relatives, that come sniffing, should your better half pass before you.

But doesn't help you if your wife kicks you out

[cornishcarlos]

4 hours ago, Russell17au said:

I am not sure whether the usufruct will be acceptable by immigration for the change of address.

 

If you decide to get a Usufruct on the property, you can then apply for a yellow house book, which will satisfy immigration (in most provinces)

[cornishcarlos]

1 minute ago, jackdd said:

But doesn't help you if your wife kicks you out

 

I'm not sure that the wife can just ask the Land Dept to cancel it. It would still have to go through the court and you would stand a chance of retaining those rights.

 

[MaeJoMTB]

20 minutes ago, jackdd said:

But there is something else that you can do: Your wife buys the house on finance over 20 years, everything on her name, and you just pay the monthly rates

I did this, 10% down (gift from me), 27 years of payments (she better be nice).

Only another 23 years of banging me and the house is hers.

[ramrod711]

10 minutes ago, MaeJoMTB said:

I did this, 10% down (gift from me), 27 years of payments (she better be nice).

Only another 23 years of banging me and the house is hers.

This may be the best (most secure) way to go but I don't agree that the lease is useless if it's registered at the land office. I lease my wife's house, when we went to the land office, her, the lawyer and I, the official there lectured my wife as to the power of the document and what she was doing. It's kind of irrelevant anyway, I don't stay where I'm not wanted, never have and never will.

[BEVUP]

2 hours ago, MaeJoMTB said:

Any legal contract between husband and wife may be cancelled unilaterally at any time by either party.

So the answer is, yes you can legally lease from your wife, but legally that lease is worthless as she can cancel it.

 

"Usufruct on the property would be the way to go."

Also may be cancelled at any time, so equally worthless.

 

I'm assuming this is a 'real' Amphur wife, and not a Village 'pretend' wife, as many foreigners seem to confuse the two.

5) The owner can’t borrow money or sell its property if a Usufruct is registered.

False. Even if you register a Usufruct Agreement on a title deed, the owner can sell his property to anyone. But in reality, nobody is interested in buying a property where they will have to maintain your right and won’t be able to use this property until you die. This is why a Usufruct is a good protection for you as it allows you to live there for the rest of your life, whatever happens. If you want this right to be passed to your heirs. It can also be done by a Lease Agreement it might be a better option depending on your case.

 

6) It is possible to cancel or void a Usufruct Agreement?

If you are NOT married to the owner granting you the Usufruct, we believe it is not possible to cancel a Usufruct and you are legally protected.

If you are legally married to the owner, Thai Lawyers disagree on the application of article 1469 CCCT. This article mentions that all agreements made between spouses can be cancelled by the Court at the request of one party, unless agreements affect third parties. According to one interpretation, “publicity” or registration affect third parties and a Usufruct can’t be cancelled. According to the other interpretation, we have to search for the spirit of the law and it looks like Thai law wanted to end all relations between spouses in case of divorce, even Usufruct Agreements. A way to avoid the application of 1469 CCCT would be to have a second agreement (like a lease) affecting a third party before the Court could cancel your Usufruct Agreement.

** Addition: Following this remark, we had a lot of emails and we saw many things written on Internet. We are not saying that it's easy to void a Usufruct. Opposite, it will be very difficult, especially if your contract is well written. Any registered agreement, like a lease or Usufruct, will have to go to Court in order to be cancelled and that will take time. A good law firm should be able to find ways to protect you, and if you are worried by this possibility, do consult professionals.

[BEVUP]

8 hours ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

I'm with this fella, why would you want to lease it ??

Does leasing it give you any more protection/rights in the future ??

 

Usufruct on the property would be the way to go...

3) Usufructs are not as safe as Lease Agreements:
False. There is no legal, historical or factual grounds for this affirmation. If a Lease is safe in Thailand (section 537 and following), a Usufruct is safe. Both of them are in the CCCT, just as a gift agreement (section 453 and following) or a Loan Contract (section 640 and following). Unless the Thai law changes, Foreigners are fully allowed to make Usufruct agreements, just as they are allowed to purchase condominiums or to make a Lease Agreement. Some Law Firms prefer to register Lease Agreements as Lease Agreements are normally more expensive. There is even some legal grounds in civil law to say that a Usufruct is stronger than a Lease Agreement.

[gamini]

8 hours ago, Esso49 said:

"Why" was not the question the OP was asking ! Something you misread perhaps to divert from the original posters intent ?

 

The question was could he lease the house from his wife ?   The answer is yes but he would need to ensure that the leasing contract was translated correctly into English to avoid any future issues should they arise regarding the terms and conditions of the lease.

correct. He should also register it with the local Amphur. Then if he broke up with his wife, he would have the right to live there for the period of the lease. 

[bankruatsteve]

Very interesting discussion.  But, even though the "why" was not in the OP, he later says that he is currently leasing (and registered via TM.30) and just wants to know if a lease with his wife will be OK for a new TM.30.  Now, I'm "pretty sure" that a lease is NOT required for the TM.30 nor the TM.7.  For long term stay, I've never even heard of needing to file a TM.30, when living with the "wife", but I also know all immigration office do not follow the "rules" exactly the same.

Edited May 9, 2018 by bankruatsteve

[Russell17au]

Ok, there have been a lot of interesting comments. backrautsteve, I am living with my Thai wife but we are living in a rented house at the moment for which we have a lease on the property and I was required by immigration to meet with my landlord at the immigration office so that they could have a copy of the landlords ID, house book and lease agreement with the TM30 as proof of my address. Now we are in the process of buying our own house and I know as a farang I do not have a Thai ID card or a house book so what I was thinking was to lease the property we are buying from my wife so that when the TM30 was taken to immigration there would also be a lease agreement for my proof of address but since first posting this I have been contacted by someone who knows what I need to do and what documents I need to have for the new TM30. Yes backrautsteve, even if you are living with your Thai wife in her house a TM30 must still be lodged when you first move into that address, so if you have been living in your Thai wifes house and she has not lodged a TM30 she is in breach of the immigration laws and can be fined.

MaeJoMTB, My marriage is a legally registered marriage.

[bankruatsteve]

4 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Ok, there have been a lot of interesting comments. backrautsteve, I am living with my Thai wife but we are living in a rented house at the moment for which we have a lease on the property and I was required by immigration to meet with my landlord at the immigration office so that they could have a copy of the landlords ID, house book and lease agreement with the TM30 as proof of my address. Now we are in the process of buying our own house and I know as a farang I do not have a Thai ID card or a house book so what I was thinking was to lease the property we are buying from my wife so that when the TM30 was taken to immigration there would also be a lease agreement for my proof of address but since first posting this I have been contacted by someone who knows what I need to do and what documents I need to have for the new TM30. Yes backrautsteve, even if you are living with your Thai wife in her house a TM30 must still be lodged when you first move into that address, so if you have been living in your Thai wifes house and she has not lodged a TM30 she is in breach of the immigration laws and can be fined.

MaeJoMTB, My marriage is a legally registered marriage.

Like I said before, immigration offices differ on interpretation of the "rules".  I am quite sure that my immigration office does NOT require the TM.30 but has, at times, required my wife to verify my residence when I file TM.7.

[MaeJoMTB]

2 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

so if you have been living in your Thai wifes house and she has not lodged a TM30 she is in breach of the immigration laws and can be fined.

I'd like to see immigration try and collect a fine from my wife.

She ain't scared of corrupt government officials.

 

[Russell17au]

6 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

Like I said before, immigration offices differ on interpretation of the "rules".  I am quite sure that my immigration office does NOT require the TM.30 but has, at times, required my wife to verify my residence when I file TM.7.

If you change residence between your lodgements of your TM7 the owner of the new property that you stay at is required to lodge a TM30

[Russell17au]

4 minutes ago, MaeJoMTB said:

I'd like to see immigration try and collect a fine from my wife.

She ain't scared of corrupt government officials.

 

There is nothing corrupt about it, it is a standard fine that is in all immigration offices for failure to lodge a TM30 within 24 hours of an alein staying at the property. It's the written law no a pretend law

 

[MaeJoMTB]

9 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

There is nothing corrupt about it, it is a standard fine that is in all immigration offices for failure to lodge a TM30 within 24 hours of an alein staying at the property. It's the written law no a pretend law

 

Do immigration even have any authority over Thai nationals?

I suspect not, and my wife wouldn't care as she already pays 'protection' money.

[Lacessit]

The lease would have to be fairly ironclad, so the OP would need a good solicitor. I can understand why he would want to protect himself.

Incidentally, OP, if you are hoping for rent assistance from Centrelink, forget it. We are non-persons in that respect.

[Lacessit]

Just now, MaeJoMTB said:

Do immigration even have any authority over Thai nationals?

I suspect not, and my wife wouldn't care as she already pays 'protection' money.

The logic escapes me. If she's not scared of corrupt government officials, why is she paying protection money?