Israeli forces kill dozens in Gaza as U.S. Embassy opens in Jerusalem

[dexterm]

16 hours ago, puipuitom said:

 

First of all: riots in Europe are against the estabishment, so .. financial damage. 

see: http://www.dw.com/en/hamburg-g20-riot-damages-run-into-millions/a-39745157 

The cost of the damage caused by street battles between protesters and police at the recent G20 summit in Hamburg may come in at about 12 million euros.

In Gaza-Israel is it: KILL the jews... AND BY THE 10.000'S

 

The fence.. is on Israëli land, so.. when anyone is at that fence, he/she is IN ISRAEL, just a few hundred meters away from Israëli settlemts.

Do you think, there is ONE soldier on the world, who takes the risk a 10,000 killers will break through into his land, killing his fellow-countrymen by the hundreds ?  NEVER ! 

They were all warned months in advance, but.. HAMAS wanted MARTYRERS, even a young baby girl, Laila al-Ghandour,  of eight (8) months was brought in.  Which responsable parents will take their baby into a situation rioting might occur ? Or was it just an orphan, nobody misses... ? 

see https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/15/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-protests.html 

 

See New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/27/world/middleeast/gaza-protest-israel.html  or  https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/hamas-plans-demonstrations-on-gaza-israel-border/4322739.html  or http://www.egyptindependent.com/hamas-prepares-mass-rallies-along-gaza-israel-border/  even https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-10/gaza-barrier-can-t-withstand-an-assault-by-mob-fencemaker-says even   https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gaza-israel-violence-at-border-fence-2018-04-27/

 

Read: https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2018/03/israel-palestinians-us-hamas-mahmoud-abbas-speech-gaza-strip.html 

The movement is preparing to encourage masses of Palestinians to climb the fence, be the cost as it may. The more desperate they are, the more they are likely to head for points of friction with Israel and clash with its troops. They will have nothing to lose.

 

The sanctions Abbas announced will enter into force immediately. They will result once again in the suspension of wages to PA employees in Gaza, greater hardship for the enclave’s barely functioning hospitals and severe power cuts. In a few weeks, as the mass march nears, Gaza is expected to be under a blackout. This will give the Palestinians additional cause to rise up and set out for the border fence, with Hamas cheering them on so it can shift responsibility for its central role in their plight and Abbas using their plight for his own political means.

 

But.. why not rioting towards Egypt, as their "brother nation" also closed their borders for them....as the Egyptians do not want these terrorists in their country.

 

Come on... 2018... the information age... read... so much on Internet...  not only one side... but several sides...

>>The fence.. is on Israëli land, so.. when anyone is at that fence, he/she is IN ISRAEL, just a few hundred meters away from Israëli settlemts.

 

Of course, Israel is the only country in the world that officially recognizes this border.

 

You also fail to mention that 70% of the Palestinians themselves or their parents or grandparents once lived on the land of those Israeli settlements .. what a quaint euphemism that is that masks the violence of ethnic cleansing under which they were established. Some of those Palestinians expelled had even helped the Jewish militias against the British, only later to be cleared off their land.

 

Sderot is one such close to the fence settlement that you mention. It lies on the ruins of the Palestinian village Huj, some of whose refugee inhabitants were no doubt in the OP demonstrations who simply want to go home.

 

The suffering of Sderot: how its true inhabitants were wiped from Israel's maps and memories
The people of Huj - now almost forgotten - had helped the Jewish Haganah army escape the British. The thanks they got was to be sent into Gaza as refugees

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-suffering-of-sderot-how-its-true-inhabitants-were-wiped-from-israels-maps-and-memories-8348734.html
 

[Thorgal]

 

Your post, which I replied to asked about Hamas role with regard to the protests. I gave an account based on personal knowledge and information available on media (including those affiliated with the Hamas).

 

There was nothing in it which resembles the wholesale wide-brush and incorrect statement you quoted. If anything, quite the opposite.

 

That your reply would have little to do with my post was expected. That you dishonestly try to equate or tie my views with those of Lieberman is pathetic.

You failed to re-construct the actions of the victims into a timeline.

Moreover, you’ve put the fingerprints of the victims on a smoking gun during investigation. The smoking gun never belonged to the victims.

You’ve never mentioned the name of the killer in front of the audience...




Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

You failed to re-construct the actions of the victims into a timeline.

Moreover, you’ve put the fingerprints of the victims on a smoking gun during investigation. The smoking gun never belonged to the victims.

You’ve never mentioned the name of the killer in front of the audience...




Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

I wasn't required to "re-construct" anything. You asked a question, and I answered to the best of my knowledge. There was never a claim to know what each and every Palestinian killed or injured did at a given time. Some incidents got published with more details, other did not.

 

The rest of your crapola - "smoking gun", "investigation", "audience" - you seem to imagine that you're in some court of law or something. Let me assure you this is not the case, and that it's doubtful anyone would mistake you for a legal expert.

 

[Morch]

5 hours ago, dexterm said:

Strawman fallacy. You fantasize about reading posters' minds and create a hypothetical (notice future tense)"just to say that if tomorrow, god forbid, there will be"..."many on this forum will BE HAPPY and clap their hands in colectiv glee", then attack the phoney construct you have just created using the present tense as though your strawman is real. "this is very sad"

 

I notice no sympathy whatsover for the very real people, including children, paraplegics and press, who lost their lives because IDF snipers clinically selected them for execution. You dehumanize and blame the victims.

 

"You dehumanize and blame the victims."

 

You do that quite often when casualties are on the other side. But guess that's quite alright.

 

[notmyself]

On ‎15‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 7:09 PM, Morch said:

 

My third "fact" mentioned lack of attainable realistic goal. It was made in the context of addressing the Palestinians (in this case, Hamas) choosing violence (or "fighting"). The Palestinian leadership tends to set imaginary objectives, and this time was no different.

 

The Israeli government not being interested in peace is nothing new, and was acknowledged and discussed on many of my posts. Then again, Hamas is not interested in peace as well - so not quite sure what your point was. Seems there's some conflating between Palestinians and Hamas, there.

 

As for your conclusion - if Israel is backed by such muscle, then there are smarter, wiser ways of addressing the situation than picking a futile fight. There are other ways of resisting an occupation or a blockade, and there are better ways of to improve the lot of your people.

 

I remember the then presidential hopeful Trump saying this somewhere and at some time but no way was I going through hours of footage looking for it. It appeared on a show last night so I went looking for the debate and it does not appear NCC uploaded it to YT so I've edited the start time on this and I'm sure you can figure out when it ends.

 

 

 

[Scott]

A troll post removed.   Do not mess with quotes from other members.  Also, off-topic post and replies removed.  

 

[Morch]

 

@notmyself

 

And your point would be...what?

 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Morch

[Dumbastheycome]

On 5/15/2018 at 8:54 AM, ezzra said:

Ok than, we agree to the fact that both sides has the rights to a homeland, all that remain to be seen who will triumph and be the victor, the hapless primitive palestinians who are led by a brutal and careless leadership or the mighty Israelis that must defend its homeland at all costs....let us count the dead, shall we?...

Bizzare analysis! 

"Israel" is/was  an invention in origin.  That it has incrementally continued  to encroach on  other  territory  manipulating  empathy  for the reason  for it's  invention has  become  farcical ! No less  so than the  farce  of current political  defences  of  both  support and outrage.  If  it  continues this  farce will  result  in the  eventual destruction of Israel as it is.  Those well away who  dictate this confrontation care  nothing  for  either side!  They have long well  uprighted  the  over turned  tables in a place they  consider  safe to do  business! And  that is  not  Israel !

 

[Morch]

5 hours ago, dexterm said:

>>The fence.. is on Israëli land, so.. when anyone is at that fence, he/she is IN ISRAEL, just a few hundred meters away from Israëli settlemts.

 

Of course, Israel is the only country in the world that officially recognizes this border.

 

You also fail to mention that 70% of the Palestinians themselves or their parents or grandparents once lived on the land of those Israeli settlements .. what a quaint euphemism that is that masks the violence of ethnic cleansing under which they were established. Some of those Palestinians expelled had even helped the Jewish militias against the British, only later to be cleared off their land.

 

Sderot is one such close to the fence settlement that you mention. It lies on the ruins of the Palestinian village Huj, some of whose refugee inhabitants were no doubt in the OP demonstrations who simply want to go home.

 

The suffering of Sderot: how its true inhabitants were wiped from Israel's maps and memories
The people of Huj - now almost forgotten - had helped the Jewish Haganah army escape the British. The thanks they got was to be sent into Gaza as refugees

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-suffering-of-sderot-how-its-true-inhabitants-were-wiped-from-israels-maps-and-memories-8348734.html
 

 

You can always be counted upon to pull some not-directly related, biased, historical "account" when no worthwhile comment on the topic at hand is possible.

 

The same Fisk piece was linked by you years ago (literally) on another topic, while posting pretty much a similar rant. As back then, I'll highlight the creative license employed by Fisk in order to make a more emotionally compelling point.

 

Fisk goes on about Huj. And the story of Huj is worth telling, because even in the context of that war, the injustice was blatant, and the treatment unfair. Fisk also goes on about Sderot - which back then was quite a bit in the news, what with rockets launched from Gaza and such. Linking Huj to Sderot is all very well, only Huj wasn't really were Sderot is.

 

Sderot (and another settlement, Or Haner) was founded on the lands previously comprising the village of Najd. Najd doesn't feature as much in Fisk's story, though, because it doesn't create quite the same "equation". Relations between Najd and its Israeli (well, Jewish back then) neighbors weren't as great. But Huj does make for a much better emotional angle, so why waste that?

 

Huj was situated a bit to the South East of Najd (nowadays Sderot). The nearby Israeli settlement of Dorot (mentioned in the link) was founded in 1941 on lands bought from Huj villagers. After the war, most of Huj's lands were joined with Dorot's.

 

If Fisk wasn't busy constructing an inaccurate account, he could possibly have made a more accurate and emotional account by figuring out that the nearest site to Huj of old, is a hill, where Ariel Sharon's family graves are located.

 

[notmyself]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

@notmyself

 

And your point would be...what?

 

 

You said 'if they had such muscle' and Trump has publically stated it. The question then moves to is the muscle is being used and if so, to what end. This very subject shows that it is being used and that it is being used very poorly .... to detriment of 'others'. It's a crying shame really because such muscle could be used for far greater purposes. All this death on both sides for a piece of land with no oil under it.

 

[Dumbastheycome]

24 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You can always be counted upon to pull some not-directly related, biased, historical "account" when no worthwhile comment on the topic at hand is possible.

 

The same Fisk piece was linked by you years ago (literally) on another topic, while posting pretty much a similar rant. As back then, I'll highlight the creative license employed by Fisk in order to make a more emotionally compelling point.

 

Fisk goes on about Huj. And the story of Huj is worth telling, because even in the context of that war, the injustice was blatant, and the treatment unfair. Fisk also goes on about Sderot - which back then was quite a bit in the news, what with rockets launched from Gaza and such. Linking Huj to Sderot is all very well, only Huj wasn't really were Sderot is.

 

Sderot (and another settlement, Or Haner) was founded on the lands previously comprising the village of Najd. Najd doesn't feature as much in Fisk's story, though, because it doesn't create quite the same "equation". Relations between Najd and its Israeli (well, Jewish back then) neighbors weren't as great. But Huj does make for a much better emotional angle, so why waste that?

 

Huj was situated a bit to the South East of Najd (nowadays Sderot). The nearby Israeli settlement of Dorot (mentioned in the link) was founded in 1941 on lands bought from Huj villagers. After the war, most of Huj's lands were joined with Dorot's.

 

If Fisk wasn't busy constructing an inaccurate account, he could possibly have made a more accurate and emotional account by figuring out that the nearest site to Huj of old, is a hill, where Ariel Sharon's family graves are located.

 

And  where  is  that a  refutation of actual  basis of the  historical facts. Sharon's family  graves are the  basis  of what ?

"Israel"  did  not  exist  until   1948.

Property bought  in 1941? Not  at  that time  an "israeli"  settlement   but

Edited May 17, 2018 by Dumbastheycome

[Morch]

1 minute ago, notmyself said:

 

You said 'if they had such muscle' and Trump has publically stated it. The question then moves to is the muscle is being used and if so, to what end. This very subject shows that it is being used and that it is being used very poorly .... to detriment of 'others'. It's a crying shame really because such muscle could be used for far greater purposes. All this death on both sides for a piece of land with no oil under it.

 

 

That's not a point, but taking my words out of context. Here they are again:

 

Quote

As for your conclusion - if Israel is backed by such muscle, then there are smarter, wiser ways of addressing the situation than picking a futile fight. There are other ways of resisting an occupation or a blockade, and there are better ways of to improve the lot of your people.

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1038253-israeli-forces-kill-dozens-in gaza as-us-embassy-opens-in-jerusalem/?page=14&tab=comments#comment-12988432

 

The point made wasn't about denying US support, but highlighting that the Palestinians way of addressing things could be smarter and wiser. As for the merits of what passes for Trump's foreign policy or policy making, I don't think we are in much disagreement.

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

And  where  is  that a  refutation of actual  basis of the  historical facts. Sharon's family  graves are the  basis  of what ?

 

I'm sure you meant something, just not sure what.

 

There was no attempt to refute historical fact, but to point out that Fisk's use of connecting historical facts to present context is somewhat "creative". That's also a reoccurring feature of many posts on here, and also those of the poster replied to. The Sharon anecdote was simply to demonstrate that there's no call for that sort of thing - enough real material to work with.

[metisdead]

Troll posts have been removed. 

[Dumbastheycome]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I'm sure you meant something, just not sure what.

 

There was no attempt to refute historical fact, but to point out that Fisk's use of connecting historical facts to present context is somewhat "creative". That's also a reoccurring feature of many posts on here, and also those of the poster replied to. The Sharon anecdote was simply to demonstrate that there's no call for that sort of thing - enough real material to work with.

Hmmm.  The  present  context is as  it  is  mainly  based  on  historical facts. That being  that the shabby  denial of  Gaza inhabitants   objections are  of  material fact.

The  fact that they are  of  Muslim  faith  is key to  the denial  by  virtue of  the  fact that   anything  remotely  antisemite  is  taboo whilst  muslims are fair  game!

It  has just  been a  turn of  the   coin to a  selective advantage.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Dumbastheycome said:

Hmmm.  The  present  context is as  it  is  mainly  based  on  historical facts. That being  that the shabby  denial of  Gaza inhabitants   objections are  of  material fact.

The  fact that they are  of  Muslim  faith  is key to  the denial  by  virtue of  the  fact that   anything  remotely  antisemite  is  taboo whilst  muslims are fair  game!

It  has just  been a  turn of  the   coin to a  selective advantage.

 

Once more, having some trouble following what you're on about or how it begins to relate to my post.

 

[bristolboy]

 

8 hours ago, Morch said:

 

The ludicrous attitude is to expect the Israeli government to be unlike many other governments when it comes to managing it's priorities, spending and whatnot. There are no "overwhelming odds", other than you claiming there are. Get a clue - that's pretty much how most things are run by the Israeli government. In many of my posts, I make the point that Israel is not on par with the West when it comes to such things as democracy and human rights. The same goes for this. You seem to claim malice of some sort, I'd say it's more off-hand disregard and stupidity.

 

And now, off to MIL's place - she's warming up to the concept of having a farang "boy", I think.

Yes the gray and technocratic state of Israel where political factions play little, if any part, in the government allocation of resources. Are there any factions in the present government coalition that would support a more humane treatment of Palestinian protesters? If so, how powerful are they compared to those who would advocate for the opposite? There's a concept in law called "willful blindness". Basically it states that if you should have known, then you are responsible for knowing even if you claim otherwise. Your willful blindness is simply not believable.

[Dumbastheycome]

20 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Once more, having some trouble following what you're on about or how it begins to relate to my post.

 

lol.  I'm  sure as a  devotee to your  indoctrinated idealism  you  will  forever  have   such  troubles. 

 

[Morch]

31 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

lol.  I'm  sure as a  devotee to your  indoctrinated idealism  you  will  forever  have   such  troubles. 

 

 

Waffle aimed at covering you either don't have a clue or can't clearly articulate your views.

Not aware that I'm a devotee of anything, let alone your made up nonsense.

 

[Morch]

43 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

 

Yes the gray and technocratic state of Israel where political factions play little, if any part, in the government allocation of resources. Are there any factions in the present government coalition that would support a more humane treatment of Palestinian protesters? If so, how powerful are they compared to those who would advocate for the opposite? There's a concept in law called "willful blindness". Basically it states that if you should have known, then you are responsible for knowing even if you claim otherwise. Your willful blindness is simply not believable.

 

You insist on implying things which weren't present in my posts, as you often do. The "technocratic" bit is particularly inane, guess you skipped that bit by the late Rabin. And obviously, there was nothing said about political factions not playing their part.

 

You seem to postulate that the investing more in non-lethal means would  constitute "a more humane treatment of Palestinian protestors", and that supposedly the main motivator in that investment not materializing is decidedly political (and correct me if I'm wrong, perhaps even sinister?).

 

IMO, there could be some of that, certainly. At least from some of the more extreme politicians. But that it played a major, active role is somewhat far-fetched if all its based upon is your own interpretation. Many a times, the attitude exhibited by the current coalition members regarding such reports amounts to deflection, obfuscations and off-hand assurances things will be addressed. This often doesn't happen, unless a crisis ensues. It seems to run deeper than politics, but more to do with culture of governance (or rather, lack of).

 

Not interested much in your petty insults or judgements, thanks.

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

You insist on implying things which weren't present in my posts, as you often do. The "technocratic" bit is particularly inane, guess you skipped that bit by the late Rabin. And obviously, there was nothing said about political factions not playing their part.

 

You seem to postulate that the investing more in non-lethal means would  constitute "a more humane treatment of Palestinian protestors", and that supposedly the main motivator in that investment not materializing is decidedly political (and correct me if I'm wrong, perhaps even sinister?).

 

IMO, there could be some of that, certainly. At least from some of the more extreme politicians. But that it played a major, active role is somewhat far-fetched if all its based upon is your own interpretation. Many a times, the attitude exhibited by the current coalition members regarding such reports amounts to deflection, obfuscations and off-hand assurances things will be addressed. This often doesn't happen, unless a crisis ensues. It seems to run deeper than politics, but more to do with culture of governance (or rather, lack of).

 

Not interested much in your petty insults or judgements, thanks.

Yes there was nothing said about political factions not playing a part. And there was nothing said about political factions and public opinion playing a part. It's the elephant in the room you somehow failed to mention. I think willful blindness is an accurate depiction of your approach. The alternative would be to say that you know little of the situation in Israel. Which is clearly not the case.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

Yes there was nothing said about political factions not playing a part. And there was nothing said about political factions and public opinion playing a part. It's the elephant in the room you somehow failed to mention. I think willful blindness is an accurate depiction of your approach. The alternative would be to say that you know little of the situation in Israel. Which is clearly not the case.

 

I didn't fail to mention or address it, stop making things up. I simply don't accept your interpretation, which makes your notion into the deciding factor in this. Not when it relies on your asserting things as fact on the force of nothing much.

 

That you misleadingly try to frame it as an either/or thing, of accepting your point of view or the recent pet term employed is just one of them ways you "debate" (if it can be called that).

 

Quote

The alternative would be to say that you know little of the situation in Israel. Which is clearly not the case.

 

Applying your "logic", it would seem that since I am supposedly well informed, I should accept the point of view of someone obviously not as informed.

[Jingthing]

Now for a little BALANCE --

 

Quote

 

NEW YORK TIMES 

Gaza’s Miseries Have Palestinian Authors

...

Why is nothing expected of Palestinians, and everything forgiven, while everything is expected of Israelis, and nothing forgiven?

For the third time in two weeks, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have set fire to the Kerem Shalom border crossing, through which they get medicine, fuel and other humanitarian essentials from Israel. Soon we’ll surely hear a great deal about the misery of Gaza. Try not to forget that the authors of that misery are also the presumptive victims.

 

 

http://www.paywallnews.com/life/Opinion-|-Gaza’s-Miseries-Have-Palestinian-Authors.ryvhJzcCf.html

[bristolboy]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I didn't fail to mention or address it, stop making things up. I simply don't accept your interpretation, which makes your notion into the deciding factor in this. Not when it relies on your asserting things as fact on the force of nothing much.

 

That you misleadingly try to frame it as an either/or thing, of accepting your point of view or the recent pet term employed is just one of them ways you "debate" (if it can be called that).

 

 

Applying your "logic", it would seem that since I am supposedly well informed, I should accept the point of view of someone obviously not as informed.

You familiar with the phrase "Not seeing the forest for the trees?" You're like a botanist who knows the names of all the trees and is busily identifying them but never noticing that Burnham wood is marching to Dunsinane.

[farcanell]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-hamas-gaza-israel-20180516-story.html

 

so.... 376 posts on, debating the toss about isreal massacring protesters.... and hamas has come out and are admitting that most casualties are Hamas affiliated.

 

This justifies Israel’s point of view in maintaining its defenses. Sure, there may have been a better way to prevent the attacks.... a trench with spikes at the bottom, or sowing the ground with caltrops, maybe.... but they decided to use snipers and gave fair warning of this, and then acted on the warning

 

it beggars belief that some posters maintain that isreal is fully culpable.... I mean, if your told not jump into a crocodile infested river, because you’ll get eaten by a crocodile, would you jump in the river?

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2018 by farcanell

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

You familiar with the phrase "Not seeing the forest for the trees?" You're like a botanist who knows the names of all the trees and is busily identifying them but never noticing that Burnham wood is marching to Dunsinane.

 

I doubt you're an authority on either forests or trees, when it comes to the topic's subject matter and related issues.

 

Not interested much in your petty insults or judgements, thanks.

 

 

[bristolboy]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I doubt you're an authority on either forests or trees, when it comes to the topic's subject matter and related issues.

 

Not interested much in your petty insults or judgements, thanks.

 

 

.Pot calling the porcelain black.

Edited May 17, 2018 by bristolboy

[notmyself]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

The point made wasn't about denying US support, but highlighting that the Palestinians way of addressing things could be smarter and wiser. As for the merits of what passes for Trump's foreign policy or policy making, I don't think we are in much disagreement.

 

Yes, we spoke about this before, are largely in agreement and my post was just clearing a loose end. Had I not come across the footage then I wouldn't have mentioned it. I just don't like the 'if' because it could read to others that there is doubt.

 

And yes again regarding Trump where I believe we have interacted with each other in the past. But while historical accuracy stretching back 1000s of years is on topic, U.S. foreign policy in a general sense wouldn't be.

 

 

[Kiwiken]

Of course Israel is within its rights to shoot dead people hurling rocks and things at the wall . Palestinians for what ever reason protesting their rights.

If you support this I guess you justify Kent State University shootings. Or that it would be acceptable for the USA to put miniguns on its border with Mexico. or that European nations should openly sink refugee boats?

Hamas may not be the best voice for the palestinian.

Of course Israel should not be recognised as a Jewish state anymore than i recognise any self proclaimed religious states. All faiths have the right to coexist.

Therefore Israel should declare itself a Secular state and cease discrimination against other faiths

[Kieran00001]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

That's too easy. The source may be suspect to you, that doesn't invalidate the opinion.

 

And yes, IMO we expect more from Israel than from the Palestinians, rightfully so. But also Israel is never held accountable.

 

No, the source doesn't, but that sources extreme bias and their twisting of events to suit their agenda does invalidate their opinion.