Israeli forces kill dozens in Gaza as U.S. Embassy opens in Jerusalem

[dexterm]

37 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

What Veto? This is about the UNHRC.

 

I doubt the investigation in question can be called "independent" - judging from the composition of the forum, and the mandate specified. Seems like the conclusion was reached anyway. The investigation will not deal with the Hamas actions and responsibility. It focuses solely on Israel. Hence the nonsense about "tell their side of the story" - as if this was some balanced inquiry, is just another intentionally misleading statement.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong - countries do not routinely submit to such investigations (if and when related bodies bother or manage to decide on such). That you expect Israel to act or be treated differently is just another indication of your standing bias.

 

Funny you should talk about "propagandists", given the thousands of one-sided, repetitive, vehement rants posted focusing on a single issue.  

>>What Veto? This is about the UNHRC.

U.S. Blocks Security Council Statement Calling for Investigation Into Gaza Violence
Kuwaiti statement called for 'independent and transparent investigation' into deaths in Gaza, which saw the bloodiest day in the enclave since 2014 war
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/u-s-blocks-security-council-statement-calling-for-gaza-investigation-1.6091919

 

Correct me if I'm wrong - countries do not routinely submit to such investigations (if and when related bodies bother or manage to decide on such). That you expect Israel to act or be treated differently is just another indication of your standing bias.
..you're wrong! Although I have noted the usual Morchspeak muddy the waters language "routinely". The only routine Israel has is never to take part in independent investigations...something to hide?

So how about the UK?

"Grieve added that, although the allegations were already being "comprehensively investigated" in Britain, "the UK government has been, and remains, a strong supporter of the ICC and I will provide the office of the prosecutor with whatever is necessary to demonstrate that British justice is following its proper course"."
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/may/13/icc-to-investigate-alleged-british-war-crimes-iraq

 

or the ICC,
To date, the Prosecutor has opened investigations in 11 situations: Burundi; two in the Central African Republic; Côte d'Ivoire; Darfur, Sudan; the Democratic Republic of the Congo; Georgia, Kenya; Libya; Mali; and Uganda. Additionally, the Office of the Prosecutor is conducting preliminary examinations in eleven situations in Afghanistan; Colombia; Gabon; Guinea; Iraq / the United Kingdom; Nigeria; Palestine; the Philippines, registered vessels of Comoros, Greece, and Cambodia; Ukraine and Venezuela

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court#Trial_history_to_date

>>Funny you should talk about "propagandists", given the thousands of one-sided, repetitive, vehement rants posted focusing on a single issue. 
..pot kettle black. 

[farcanell]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

If you are not capable of understanding the background to the OP conflict, you do know it's not obligatory to respond. Your inane inflammatory troll does nothing to contribute to the discussion.

Yep... right... I have now posted the background, that you and a few others are in denial about... or are incapable of understanding

 

hopefully this contributes to the discussion....  and hopefully it forces you to inject a little balance and fairness, which has been markedly absent, into your antsemetic posts.

 

as an atheist, it’s the hypocrisy that I find disturbing.

[carmine]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

And yet, your posts repeatedly assert incorrect, one-sided versions regarding the causes for the blockade, humanitarian crisis and death toll. Same goes for using other tropes (like the white phosphorus bit). I never claimed anything implying Israel is whiter than white. As for hard done by - Israel's misdeeds ought to be addressed, the issue taken is that relative to other instances worldwide, it gets disproportional attention.

What is incorrect about my posts?

[dexterm]

17 minutes ago, farcanell said:

Ah... here it is..... ( for those that know a bit about history, skip the blah blah, as everything between here and the last three paragraph is justification for my point)

 

majdal, today called ashkelon... let’s look at that for a second

ashkelon, or Ascalon, established more than 3000 years ago, was a center of the cannonites world, but the cannonites were conquered by the Jews, under Joshua and king David, making it a part of isreal, but again conquered and reconquered until it was destroyed by the Muslims in 1270 CE

 

redeveloped under the ottermans perhaps, it had a population of about 10,000, when it was reaquired by isreal, and renamed Ashkelon

 

so.... an Israelite town, but never mind, although you do seem to be obsessing over the last seventy years and banging on about Jewish invaders from Europe... so let’s look at that now...

 

or rather, let’s look at the elephant in the room, that anti semetics are ignoring, whilst painting Muslims as whiter than white

 

Yemen.....an Arab country, with Jewish migration and occupation dating back to 900 BCE. IN 1882, Jews started leaving Yemen... 1922, old laws were enforced, enforcing Islamist conversions on some Jews... in 1947, anti Semitic riots killed scores of Jews, destroyed four synagogues and hundreds of Jewish homes, paraysing the community, who fled their homes of 3000 years, heading for the new state of isreal... in 1949 thru 1950, operation magic carpet airlifted almost the entire Yemen Jewish population outta there, but in 1962, Jewish immigration was banned... current population of Jews... 200 odd... where are the tears?

 

Syria... the ancient city of Aleppo “ he milked” (translation) named so, according to historical sources, because Abraham milked a goat, whilst traveling thru... it doesn’t get much more Jewish than that, but that was 3000 years ago

 

in 1375, Ben Judah brought the Aleppo codex to Aleppo for 600 years of safekeeping, but in 1947, that, along with other religious manuscripts, artifacts, homes, businesses and religious sites were destroyed by Muslims. The exodus started circa 1850, by 1943, about 30,000 remained... these suffered many and various persecutions, expulsion from government employment, freezing of assets etc, causing more to flee, prior to finally being granted exit visas in 1992... current population... about 22 ( 2012 number)... where are their homes now

 

Libya.... Jews date back 2500 years.... at one point during the 1900s, 25% of Tripoli’s pop was Jewish, with 44 synagoges during that time, during the second WW , at least 2000 were deported to European concentration camps. Between 1945 and 1950, hundreds and hundreds of Jewish homes and businesses were destroyed, in more anti Semitic violence, forcing 30,000 plus Jews to flee for isreal.

in 1961, new citizenship laws made Jews non citizens, facing more anti Semitic violence, until the Italians airlifted 6000 to Rome... today zero Jews remain.... and their homes and businesses... gone, but what of your tears for them

 

Iraq... well hell, what can you say about that.... the Jews were exiled there, 2700 years ago...and in 1948, the population was about 130,000 Jews... why nitpick, 10 remain, if your lucky... hiding in a very deep hole.

guaranteed those Jews had a cave they called a home, and a mans home is his castles, right?... and the tears?

 

Egypt... an upswing in Jewish population began about 600 years before the birth of the Christ god, with 80,000 Jews in Egypt in 1948. In 1970, they were declared enemies of the state, most fled, some remained to be captured, tortured and killed ... current population... less than ten, best guesses.... again, homes, businesses, happiness etc etc all gone bye bye.... do we care about those 80,000 Jews.

 

Algeria..... Jews lived there for two and a half millennia, but in 1962 Algeria gained independence and granted citizenship to Muslims only, forcing about 170,000 Jews to flee... current population... approx zero...

Jewish homes, businesses etc. etc... all gone bye byes... and yet, we’re is your indignation

 

Morocco.... not so bad... 225000 Jews in 1930.... 3500 now... but still, 221500 Jews and their homes... all gone after 2600 years of homes and hearths.. care factor?

 

Tunisia... not so bad, apart from deportations to concentration camps and general worsening anti Semitism... 1500 Jews still remain, after 2600 years of calling it home... go Tunisia!

 

Lebanon.... established by tribes of David... it’s impossible to get more Jewish than that!......a few still remain, apparently, post 1948

 

but my favorite... the terrorist state of Iran... 25000 Jews are actually protected, within that terrorist state... go Iran, best Arab state out there.

 

the point... this is mostly immigration from Arab countries, in the last seventy years, whereby anti semitism violence or anti Semitic laws have forced hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Jews to forever give up there homes, in Muslim lands, to which they can never return, but all the anti Semitic posters here want to acknowledge is the expulsion of a few thousand Muslims, under arguably less harsh terms.

 

So... be fair... be equally indignant... and to be equally indignant, simple math suggests you should be about 100 times more outraged at the treatment of the Jewish people, by Muslims....  but I doubt your future posts, or those of others in denial, will fairly acknowledge this overwhelming disparity

 

So if this holds true, at least stop injecting history into the argument, and focus instead on 2018, as historical references will not win your argument, as I have demonstrated.

 

 

 

Are you making a claim for an even bigger land grab by Zionists over the entire Middle  East. I believe you are drifting off topic...another thread another time maybe.
The Bible is not a real estate title deed.

>>when it was reaquired by isreal, and renamed Ashkelon [sic]
... reacquired is a very nice euphemism for the resident Palestinian population being terrorized by Zionist militias and herded into Gaza, simply to prevent Jews being outnumbered in the land they had colonized. Maybe OK in ancient times, but you can't behave like that in the 21st century. Most folks now live in more enlightened times under international law.

Why does Israel not want the OP demonstrators to return to their homes?

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, Kiwiken said:

I always take note of your points Morch though don't always agree. To me the IDF is the glue that holds Israel together. most of the time they show remarkable restraint . Sometimes certain members do not.

However Hamas was empowered by Israels continuing crackdown allowing them to radicalise more Palestinians.

This feeds the radical Hamas agenda. Arafat had a different vision for Palestinian Independence but was killed to silence him.

The blockade now keeps Hamas in power and the growing Isil threat in the Sinai may well spread to the Gaza giving Israel a bigger threat than Hamas

 

Fatah (or effectively, PA) corruption and ineptness were two main factors in the Hamas's popular appeal. This was somewhat diminished following years of failed rule in the Gaza Strip. I think that overall, Hamas may still be marginally more popular than the Fatah (or, the PA), but this is hard to accurately assess and tends to change with ongoing events.

 

If your point was about there being a vicious cycle of violence making things worse - it's a routine observation. To spin it as Israel's sole doing or responsibility is not necessarily correct, helpful or reasonable. It also ignores that there are other such "cycles" (although political, for the most part) at work, more relevantly between the Palestinian factions, but also within Israel and regionally. 

 

The nature of Arafat's "vision" regarding Palestinian independence could be argued. While it wasn't a predominantly religious one, it had no issues exploiting religion when it suited. As for it being a "vision" based on peaceful co-existence, or fully accepting the state of things - guess we'll have to disagree. The conspiracy theory nonsense bit wasn't really required in order to make your "point", but eh...

 

The blockade does not keep the Hamas in power. If the blockade was lifted tomorrow, it would be seen as victory for the Hamas and popular support would rise. Lifting the blockade would allow the Hamas to replenish it's arms, funds and clout, thus improving its position. The blockade also bars (pretty effectively) previous cooperation between the Hamas and ISIL. ISIL's possibly moving in to fill a vacuum if Hamas was removed is one major reason neither Egypt nor Israel are keen to go down this road.

[Kiwiken]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Fatah (or effectively, PA) corruption and ineptness were two main factors in the Hamas's popular appeal. This was somewhat diminished following years of failed rule in the Gaza Strip. I think that overall, Hamas may still be marginally more popular than the Fatah (or, the PA), but this is hard to accurately assess and tends to change with ongoing events.

 

If your point was about there being a vicious cycle of violence making things worse - it's a routine observation. To spin it as Israel's sole doing or responsibility is not necessarily correct, helpful or reasonable. It also ignores that there are other such "cycles" (although political, for the most part) at work, more relevantly between the Palestinian factions, but also within Israel and regionally. 

 

The nature of Arafat's "vision" regarding Palestinian independence could be argued. While it wasn't a predominantly religious one, it had no issues exploiting religion when it suited. As for it being a "vision" based on peaceful co-existence, or fully accepting the state of things - guess we'll have to disagree. The conspiracy theory nonsense bit wasn't really required in order to make your "point", but eh...

 

The blockade does not keep the Hamas in power. If the blockade was lifted tomorrow, it would be seen as victory for the Hamas and popular support would rise. Lifting the blockade would allow the Hamas to replenish it's arms, funds and clout, thus improving its position. The blockade also bars (pretty effectively) previous cooperation between the Hamas and ISIL. ISIL's possibly moving in to fill a vacuum if Hamas was removed is one major reason neither Egypt nor Israel are keen to go down this road.

Once again on some points we must agree to disagree.

[Morch]

32 minutes ago, Hummin said:

For real? Other side? 

 

If I was born in Israel, who do you think I would side with? If I was born in Lebanon? Who do you think I would side with? Im born i a free country with all the necessery tools to educate myselves, and make up an opinion based on the information I have, and are willing to read. Even my eyes is coloured by friends who served there in the 80íes, and who was pro Israel when they arrived, and left as pro palestinian.  Even today, they have problems with accepting Israel and whats going on there. They where part of the Unifil battalion there, and as I say, they where pro Israel when they arrived. I will never side with Hamas, but I can understand why it is like it is!

 

Anyway, what can be done to the situation today? That is the question. There is no willingnes to stop violence and attacks at Israel, or is it? There is an impossible situation for both parts, and it is completely locked. They can not give more freedom, since they will for sure atttack, and they can not kill them all. As I say, it is like mosquito, if you do not kill them all, they will always find you and bugg you. 

 

The underlying assumption is that people born in a country would automatically and unconditionally side with it (or perhaps, with its government/leadership). As the opposite is often exhibited on this forum (and even on related topics) that's one odd comment.

 

Going on about "dehumanizing", then comparing Palestinians to mosquitoes doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. And yet, that was the content of your post. And yes - dehumanizing, wide-brush comments are applied to Israel and Israelis regularly on these topics. While some may see it as warranted and legit, pretending it doesn't happen is dishonest.

 

IMO, there is no handy overall solution for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. With regard to instances of this conflict (like the situation in the Gaza Strip) - there are possible ways to address some issues, but its improbable most will actually materialize.

 

The key factor here is Hamas. So long as it insists on remaining both a terrorist (or military, whatever) organizations and a political party, there is little chance that the positions of other parties (Israel, the PA, Egypt, Western and donor countries) will fundamentally change.

 

Barring that, significantly easing the blockade would necessitate re-introducing controls and oversight on funds, goods and materials imported to the Gaza Strip. To date, Hamas been less than cooperative or trustworthy in this regard. While that's a more workable proposition, there are serious doubts it would hold, given past experience.

 

Some posters are advocates of strong international pressure being applied on Israel. I'd suggest that whether one sees it as fair or not, such pressure would be more effective directed at a less formidable party. Perhaps not "just" or even "nice", but if the issue at hand is promptly addressing environmental and humanitarian conditions in the Gaza maybe niceties and point scoring are of lesser importance.

[Jai Dee]

Several off-topic troll and argumentative posts have been removed from this thread.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Hummin said:

Why would they want peace? Their living situation will not change! 

 

So, by your informed view, the situation and living conditions of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are similar to those residing in the West Bank? Or perhaps you imagine that the blockade was always in place, rather than being directly related to the Hamas agenda, policies and actions? You do know, I hope, that prior to this, Gazans were able to trade with and work in Israel (similar to those Palestinian living in the West Bank)?

 

To avoid expected spins - there is no claim that the situation of the Palestinians in the West Bank is great. But it is a ways better than that of their brethren in the Gaza Strip.

[Hummin]

14 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

So, by your informed view, the situation and living conditions of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are similar to those residing in the West Bank? Or perhaps you imagine that the blockade was always in place, rather than being directly related to the Hamas agenda, policies and actions? You do know, I hope, that prior to this, Gazans were able to trade with and work in Israel (similar to those Palestinian living in the West Bank)?

 

To avoid expected spins - there is no claim that the situation of the Palestinians in the West Bank is great. But it is a ways better than that of their brethren in the Gaza Strip.

People want freedom, and even when they have freedom, they want more! 

 

Middle east is an endless loop, and nobody can stop it. 

[Hummin]

I still feel mosquito is a good symbol for the parts in the conflict, even the mosquito is nr one killer in the world, it is almost only the poor people who suffer by mosquitos 

[dexterm]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

The big picture view of how I see this latest flareup.

Gaza is a total mess.

Hamas is a terrorist organization. 

Neither Israel or Egypt really wants to deal with Gaza. Why would they?

It's a total mess run by Hamas.

Hamas (again) decided to bait Israel to create lots of casualties of their own people. These were not peaceful protests. They were violent riots, extreme provocations at the border. Hamas encouraged this and they knew full well what the result would be.

Israel played along and took the bait. Definitely overdid the reaction, but only in the matter of the degree. There were definitely going to be casualties, it was only a matter of how many.

Now Hamas has gained another propaganda victory in their endless game to demonize Israel. 

Netanyahu doesn't seem to really care about that at all anymore (not that he ever really did), especially with "trump" now in power who never pressures him about anything. 

Hamas might feel they "won" this though. Look at the tone of many of the posts here. Totally vile inflammatory hate speech. Blatantly suggesting the modern Israel is as bad (or in the case of the dictator from Turkey, worse) than Hitler's Nazis.

It's arguable that over the top hate speech demonizing Israel will now be at least a little bit more socially cool in the wake of this latest.

So Hamas got that. Predictably. That was all they ever were going to get with these baiting riots anyway. 

Is that a real "win" though?

Does it change anything at all on the ground for the people in Gaza, who of course deserve so much better?

I think not at all! 

 

Not a single rocket has been fired at Israel for the past two months. In response couldn't Israel have been more proactive in easing tensions with the carrot of incrementally lifting the siege of Gaza effectively "caged in a toxic slum" as the UN human rights chief called it. Instead it's the usual Israeli stick; It seems Israel is goading a people who already have nothing to lose.

 

If, as you falsely claim the deaths were all Hamas's fault by baiting Israel to create lots of casualties, why did Israel so willingly oblige to become a recruiting sergeant for Hamas and others in the world then? No-one made Israel fire live ammunition to create the very casualties they warned about. Israel has a vast arsenal of non lethal weapons they use to control crowds in the West Bank... tear gas, pepper spray, rubber/sponge bullets, stun grenades, tasers, skunk, dye, water cannons, sonic devices....heck, Israel should know..they've made an export industry out of it. Why not deploy them on the Gaza fence? 

 

Why was Israel not smarter in the PR war? By needlessly killing 106 including 15 children and injuring 12,000, Israel has created enormous negative PR for itself. My answer is that Israel really does not care. It's done it before. They can shrug it off with impunity knowing they have friends in high places....for now!

 

But in the meantime 1000s more people globally are now more aware of how Israel behaves badly. And these people vote and some become activists. EU and US governments change. The only way that Israel will change is when external pressure is brought to bear on it.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

>>What Veto? This is about the UNHRC.

U.S. Blocks Security Council Statement Calling for Investigation Into Gaza Violence
Kuwaiti statement called for 'independent and transparent investigation' into deaths in Gaza, which saw the bloodiest day in the enclave since 2014 war
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/u-s-blocks-security-council-statement-calling-for-gaza-investigation-1.6091919

 

Correct me if I'm wrong - countries do not routinely submit to such investigations (if and when related bodies bother or manage to decide on such). That you expect Israel to act or be treated differently is just another indication of your standing bias.
..you're wrong! Although I have noted the usual Morchspeak muddy the waters language "routinely". The only routine Israel has is never to take part in independent investigations...something to hide?

So how about the UK?

"Grieve added that, although the allegations were already being "comprehensively investigated" in Britain, "the UK government has been, and remains, a strong supporter of the ICC and I will provide the office of the prosecutor with whatever is necessary to demonstrate that British justice is following its proper course"."
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/may/13/icc-to-investigate-alleged-british-war-crimes-iraq

 

or the ICC,
To date, the Prosecutor has opened investigations in 11 situations: Burundi; two in the Central African Republic; Côte d'Ivoire; Darfur, Sudan; the Democratic Republic of the Congo; Georgia, Kenya; Libya; Mali; and Uganda. Additionally, the Office of the Prosecutor is conducting preliminary examinations in eleven situations in Afghanistan; Colombia; Gabon; Guinea; Iraq / the United Kingdom; Nigeria; Palestine; the Philippines, registered vessels of Comoros, Greece, and Cambodia; Ukraine and Venezuela

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court#Trial_history_to_date

>>Funny you should talk about "propagandists", given the thousands of one-sided, repetitive, vehement rants posted focusing on a single issue. 
..pot kettle black. 

 

Your original comment mentioning "veto" was - "...Israel will not co-operate, and will get friends in high places overseas to veto any such investigation's establishment." (https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1038253-israeli-forces-kill-dozens-in gaza as-us-embassy-opens-in-jerusalem/?page=29&tab=comments#comment-12999253). It was pointed out that this about the UNHRC, in which there is no such veto right. That you try to muddy the waters citing related issues doesn't change facts. The UNHRC is not the same as the UNSC.

 

And no, I do not believe I am wrong regarding countries' cooperation with such investigations, rather you crying "muddy the waters" while splashing around. Your post conflates between the UNHRC and the ICC - a factual distinction which I'm quite certain will be labeled as "nitpicking" or "pedantic". But however you spin it, these two are not same same.

 

With regard to the link provided and the ICC obfuscation bit - the UK agreed to cooperate with a "preliminary examination", expressing confidence things would not progress to a "formal investigation". Now, you may (and probably will) announce this to be "nitpicking" and "pedantry", but in fact, these terms represent different phases of ICC work, and carry very different legal implications.

 

Despite the ICC not being directly involved (yet?) in the current instance, an ICC official already opined that available information may indicate infractions from both sides.

 

Israel, by the way, is not a state party with regard to the ICC. Before you make a big deal out of it, or wave it as "proof" for this or that, the same goes for other countries - the US, Russia, India and China, to name a few others.

 

As for the pot, kettle, black thing - not really. My posts are hardly as one-sided, nor vehement as yours. They often acknowledge negatives on both sides. Additionally, I do not limit myself to a single issue.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Morch

[Hummin]

And the issue here is moving the embassy to Jerusalem? Was that the correct decission by USA? 

 

Did the protesters have the right to protest? 

 

Did Israel use unessery violence to stop the protesters? 

 

3 simple questions. Not the whole world problem in Middle east, created by time and people who is no longer with us! 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, carmine said:

What is incorrect about my posts?

 

Already addressed several times, most recently here:

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1038253-israeli-forces-kill-dozens-in gaza as-us-embassy-opens-in-jerusalem/?page=30&tab=comments#comment-12999619

 

Not seeing the point of intentionally playing obtuse, especially as you've already replied to that post (and similar, previous ones).

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

Are you making a claim for an even bigger land grab by Zionists over the entire Middle  East. I believe you are drifting off topic...another thread another time maybe.
The Bible is not a real estate title deed.

>>when it was reaquired by isreal, and renamed Ashkelon [sic]
... reacquired is a very nice euphemism for the resident Palestinian population being terrorized by Zionist militias and herded into Gaza, simply to prevent Jews being outnumbered in the land they had colonized. Maybe OK in ancient times, but you can't behave like that in the 21st century. Most folks now live in more enlightened times under international law.

Why does Israel not want the OP demonstrators to return to their homes?

 

"Why does Israel not want the OP demonstrators to return to their homes?"

 

Why do you keep pretending "return to their homes" is a neutral proposition?

 

[notmyself]

4 hours ago, Hummin said:

Another ting is and my point if it didnt come trough as a point, is dehumanizing the enemy to be exactly like a mosquito! That makes the whole thing easier for them to axept status que and still progress with their plan to take over all land they want and need to still grow. 

 

....... It's disheartening to me [Bibi] to see so many western countries in Europe and elsewhere lacking the spine to be irrationally terrified of brown people when we tell them to be... such anti-Semitism... shameful.

 

60 lines lost and nothing will happen about it. All very sad really.

 

 

 

[Morch]

25 minutes ago, Hummin said:

People want freedom, and even when they have freedom, they want more! 

 

Middle east is an endless loop, and nobody can stop it. 

 

That still does not explain the incorrect nonsense you posted, regarding Gazans' living conditions not set to improve even if there was peace.

[carmine]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Already addressed several times, most recently here:

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1038253-israeli-forces-kill-dozens-in gaza as-us-embassy-opens-in-jerusalem/?page=30&tab=comments#comment-12999619

 

Not seeing the point of intentionally playing obtuse, especially as you've already replied to that post (and similar, previous ones).

 

Theres nothing wrong at all about my posts.  The only difference i can see in what you are saying is that certain aspects do not lie solely at the feet of the Israelis.  You seem to be a little out of touch with whats legal and whats not.

[dexterm]

17 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Your original comment mentioning "veto" was - "...Israel will not co-operate, and will get friends in high places overseas to veto any such investigation's establishment." (https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1038253-israeli-forces-kill-dozens-in gaza as-us-embassy-opens-in-jerusalem/?page=29&tab=comments#comment-12999253). It was pointed out that this about the UNHRC, in which there is no such veto right. That you try to muddy the waters citing related issues doesn't change facts. The UNHRC is not the same as the UNSC.

 

And no, I do not believe I am wrong regarding countries' cooperation with such investigations, rather you crying "muddy the waters" while splashing around. Your post conflates between the UNHRC and the ICC - a factual distinction which I'm quite certain will be labeled as "nitpicking" or "pedantic". But however you spin it, these two are not same same.

 

With regard to the link provided and the ICC obfuscation bit - the UK agreed to cooperate with a "preliminary examination", expressing confidence things would not progress to a "formal investigation". Now, you may (and probably will) announce this to be "nitpicking" and "pedantry", but in fact, these terms represent different phases of ICC work, and carry very different legal implications.

 

Despite the ICC not being directly involved (yet?) in the current instance, an ICC official already opined that available information may indicate infractions from both sides.

 

Israel, by the way, is not a state party with regard to the ICC. Before you make a big deal out of it, or wave it as "proof" for this or that, the same goes for other countries - the US, Russia, India and China, to name a few others.

 

As for the pot, kettle, black thing - not really. My posts are hardly as one-sided, nor vehement as yours. They often acknowledge negatives on both sides. Additionally, I do not limit myself to a single issue.

"veto" is a generic term meaning: Refuse to accept or allow. That you choose to spin my words by choosing a specific UN usage is your problem not mine.

I referred to "such investigations". You are the one spinning that, creating a strawman, by restricting "investigations" to UNHCR and UNSC, not me.

 

You asked me what countries co-operate with international investigations...I gave you a list. Unlike Israel that never does.

 

The ICC can indict countries whether they are members or not.

[farcanell]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

Are you making a claim for an even bigger land grab by Zionists over the entire Middle  East. I believe you are drifting off topic...another thread another time maybe.
The Bible is not a real estate title deed.

>>when it was reaquired by isreal, and renamed Ashkelon [sic]
... reacquired is a very nice euphemism for the resident Palestinian population being terrorized by Zionist militias and herded into Gaza, simply to prevent Jews being outnumbered in the land they had colonized. Maybe OK in ancient times, but you can't behave like that in the 21st century. Most folks now live in more enlightened times under international law.

Why does Israel not want the OP demonstrators to return to their homes?

No... I’m making the point that anti Semitic posters are referencing the forcible removal of thousands of Muslims, from the cradle of Israel’s homeland, over the last 70 years, but are ignoring the far harsher removal of hundreds of thousands of Jews, from places that they and there ancestors have lived, for thousands of years, during the same time period

 

and... land grab? All they want is security of their historical homeland, (which isn’t really very big) which is all that is left to these Arab folk ( yes... Jews are as Arab as you can get) , following their forcible expulsion from other Arab lands, which again, has happened during the same time frame ( post WW2)

 

But if you want to go biblical, verses historical.... Noah landed on the slopes of mount Arafat.... and his heirs inherited the Middle East etc etc ( yer, right... let’s not talk biblical)

 

“reaquired”, I think came from wiki (or it was a similar word)... but anyhow, it matters not, when your talking about zionists terrorizing Muslims, but ignoring the 100 fold terrorism of Jews by Muslims, from murder to tortured to simple relocation from their home within our lifetime (unless your under twenty years old... perhaps... probably younger if researching is needed to prove a point)

 

the point... yes... poor disenfranchised 10,000 Muslims ( you pick a number)... but also... poor disenfranchised millions Jews, during the same timeframe.

 

and... whilst references to ancient times were made by me, to underscore the extent of disenfranchisement, to Jewish people who had 3000 years of connection to a home, in some cases ( verses Islam’s 1500 years max... because it’s only a 1500 year old religion), I have quite clearly explained that the real Jewish dispossession tragedy, is but 70 years old, which is your selected timeframe.

 

so... again.... you insist on only looking at one very small side of the story... and yes... a very small side, if you compare the numbers you provided (12000 was it?) vs the numbers I provided, and I can only assume it’s because you have a religious or racial bias, as nothing else makes sense

 

re why don’t they want the “Palestinians” back... well... with a government (hamas) that has as a charter resolution to obliterate the Jewish people, I’m surprised that you need to ask the question.

 

wow... if my family took a hate to my neighbors family, and vowed to kill them all...  then starting throwing bombs over the fence, would that be ok with you? Because that’s what hamas has done... is doing

 

again... 1970 made enemies of the state in egypt

again 1961... refused citizenship in libya

my references to forced removal, which is on topic, are all recent history events... rooted in antiquity, as demonstrated, (which doesn’t really apply to Islam), just as is the removal of Muslims from a tiny wee area of the Middle East, but no where near as atrocious, and by not acknowledging this, you are complicit in these horrendous acts by Muslim regimes against Jews.

 

there is absolutely nothing enlightened in ignoring or denying what happened to the Jews post WW2, whilst complaining about what has happened to a very small proportional amount of Muslims.... nothing at all.

Edited May 19, 2018 by farcanell

[Hummin]

32 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

That still does not explain the incorrect nonsense you posted, regarding Gazans' living conditions not set to improve even if there was peace.

Well, I think that makes my day in this tread! Enough is enough and know when it is time to just let the tread wonder off to another closure without ending. 

[Morch]

18 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Not a single rocket has been fired at Israel for the past two months. In response couldn't Israel have been more proactive in easing tensions with the carrot of incrementally lifting the siege of Gaza effectively "caged in a toxic slum" as the UN human rights chief called it. Instead it's the usual Israeli stick; It seems Israel is goading a people who already have nothing to lose.

 

If, as you falsely claim the deaths were all Hamas's fault by baiting Israel to create lots of casualties, why did Israel so willingly oblige to become a recruiting sergeant for Hamas and others in the world then? No-one made Israel fire live ammunition to create the very casualties they warned about. Israel has a vast arsenal of non lethal weapons they use to control crowds in the West Bank... tear gas, pepper spray, rubber/sponge bullets, stun grenades, tasers, skunk, dye, water cannons, sonic devices....heck, Israel should know..they've made an export industry out of it. Why not deploy them on the Gaza fence? 

 

Why was Israel not smarter in the PR war? By needlessly killing 106 including 15 children and injuring 12,000, Israel has created enormous negative PR for itself. My answer is that Israel really does not care. It's done it before. They can shrug it off with impunity knowing they have friends in high places....for now!

 

But in the meantime 1000s more people globally are now more aware of how Israel behaves badly. And these people vote and some become activists. EU and US governments change. The only way that Israel will change is when external pressure is brought to bear on it.

 

There were numerous other attacks, though. Both before the protests commenced and during. You seem to imagine these are legit or ought to be ignored. The same way your refuse to acknowledge that a lot of the issues have to do with the failed Palestinian reconciliation process and pressure applied by the PA. Or the blockade being maintained by Egypt as well.

 

Israel's current government is not suspected of being particularly wise nor capable. Pretty much as the neighbors' leaderships. Somehow you manage to alternate between disparaging it, and raising faux expectations it would act differently. At the same time - not a word on the Palestinian leadership's failures, specifically those of the Hamas.

 

Israel's failures on the PR front are nothing new. Been that way for years. Not that easy considering the optics and obvious faults. Given your agenda is decidedly anti-Israeli, not quite sure what's your complaint here. Your "answer" is the usual simplistic fare - I doubt the Israeli government was not aware of the expected PR hit, but given that it would suffer a PR loss anyway, and adding the realistic danger of masses breaching the fence, made the decision what it was. Somehow, no criticism offered on the Hamas egging people on under these circumstances.

 

Israel does not have a "vast arsenal of of non-lethal weapons". In fact, there was at least one state comptroller report touching on this very subject (linked several times on this topic and others). The means used in the West Bank do not necessarily apply to conditions in the Gaza Strip. From comments made by IDF officers, seemed like their effectiveness there is/was limited.

 

As for your global political forecast, even if that was so (and you've been going on about such upcoming changes for years - literately), waiting until they materialize and take effect, never mind relying on them fundamentally changing the Palestinians' lot, seems like a strategy designed to prolong the conflict.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, carmine said:

Theres nothing wrong at all about my posts.  The only difference i can see in what you are saying is that certain aspects do not lie solely at the feet of the Israelis.  You seem to be a little out of touch with whats legal and whats not.

 

If you refuse to acknowledge the central  part played by the both Palestinian leaderships and Egypt, while spinning it as being all about Israel - then yes, your posts are incorrect. With regard to the white phosphorous comment - addressed and link before, you are mistaken.

 

If you want to talk about legalities - then once more, these would apply all around, and not only to Israel.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

"veto" is a generic term meaning: Refuse to accept or allow. That you choose to spin my words by choosing a specific UN usage is your problem not mine.

I referred to "such investigations". You are the one spinning that, creating a strawman, by restricting "investigations" to UNHCR and UNSC, not me.

 

You asked me what countries co-operate with international investigations...I gave you a list. Unlike Israel that never does.

 

The ICC can indict countries whether they are members or not.

 

Veto, in the context of UN related votes, is a specific construct. Previous instances of such investigation were carried out despite objections by Israel and others. The spin is all yours.

 

You were replying to my post, which referred to an actual, specific investigation, by a specific UN body. There's a history specific to such. So the one spinning things, is again, yourself. If you wish to go on about something I didn't comment about, do not twist my words or whine when you are caught out. That you wish to imply my post referred to anything other than the specific upcoming investigation and the body in question is incorrect and dishonest.

[dexterm]

1 hour ago, farcanell said:

No... I’m making the point that anti Semitic posters are referencing the forcible removal of thousands of Muslims, from the cradle of Israel’s homeland, over the last 70 years, but are ignoring the far harsher removal of hundreds of thousands of Jews, from places that they and there ancestors have lived, for thousands of years, during the same time period

 

and... land grab? All they want is security of their historical homeland, (which isn’t really very big) which is all that is left to these Arab folk ( yes... Jews are as Arab as you can get) , following their forcible expulsion from other Arab lands, which again, has happened during the same time frame ( post WW2)

 

But if you want to go biblical, verses historical.... Noah landed on the slopes of mount Arafat.... and his heirs inherited the Middle East etc etc ( yer, right... let’s not talk biblical)

 

“reaquired”, I think came from wiki (or it was a similar word)... but anyhow, it matters not, when your talking about zionists terrorizing Muslims, but ignoring the 100 fold terrorism of Jews by Muslims, from murder to tortured to simple relocation from their home within our lifetime (unless your under twenty years old... perhaps... probably younger if researching is needed to prove a point)

 

the point... yes... poor disenfranchised 10,000 Muslims ( you pick a number)... but also... poor disenfranchised millions Jews, during the same timeframe.

 

and... whilst references to ancient times were made by me, to underscore the extent of disenfranchisement, to Jewish people who had 3000 years of connection to a home, in some cases ( verses Islam’s 1500 years max... because it’s only a 1500 year old religion), I have quite clearly explained that the real Jewish dispossession tragedy, is but 70 years old, which is your selected timeframe.

 

so... again.... you insist on only looking at one very small side of the story... and yes... a very small side, if you compare the numbers you provided (12000 was it?) vs the numbers I provided, and I can only assume it’s because you have a religious or racial bias, as nothing else makes sense

 

re why don’t they want the “Palestinians” back... well... with a government (hamas) that has as a charter resolution to obliterate the Jewish people, I’m surprised that you need to ask the question.

 

wow... if my family took a hate to my neighbors family, and vowed to kill them all...  then starting throwing bombs over the fence, would that be ok with you? Because that’s what hamas has done... is doing

 

again... 1970 made enemies of the state in egypt

again 1961... refused citizenship in libya

my references to forced removal, which is on topic, are all recent history events... rooted in antiquity, as demonstrated, (which doesn’t really apply to Islam), just as is the removal of Muslims from a tiny wee area of the Middle East, but no where near as atrocious, and by not acknowledging this, you are complicit in these horrendous acts by Muslim regimes against Jews.

 

there is absolutely nothing enlightened in ignoring or denying what happened to the Jews post WW2, whilst complaining about what has happened to a very small proportional amount of Muslims.... nothing at all.

I am not anti Semitic. Find a single instance of Jew hatred in my posts. Put up or shut up.

 

Why should Palestinians pay the price for other countries' and religions' persecution of Jews?

 

As I have said many times, I support compensation/repatriation (if they want it) for all genuinely ethnically cleansed peoples as part of a peace settlement in this conflict..Jews, Christians and Muslims.

 

I have no problem with Israel being a haven for any Jew in the world who is genuinely persecuted, but not to have supremacist rights over all other peoples in Palestine based purely on religion, and refuse them the right to return to their homes simply because it would upset the demographics.

 

This argument that it's OK for Zionists to dispossess and basically do what they like to Palestinians because people who shared the same religion lived there some thousands of years ago, as have many other peoples and religions!, has got to be one of the most farcical in the Zionist playbook...debunked many times before. Jerusalem has been Palestinian longer than London has been English.

[Morch]

 

@dexterm

 

It would seem that you are against the notions of two wrong don't make a right in one instance, and advocate for the exact opposite on the other. Not expecting a whole lot of consistency in your rants, but still...

 

Edited May 19, 2018 by Morch

[farcanell]

1 hour ago, Hummin said:

And the issue here is moving the embassy to Jerusalem? Was that the correct decission by USA? 

 

Did the protesters have the right to protest? 

 

Did Israel use unessery violence to stop the protesters? 

 

3 simple questions. Not the whole world problem in Middle east, created by time and people who is no longer with us! 

Lol.... jerk everyone back from the brink, why don’t you??

 

1/ Donald chump showed naive and immature statesmanship in moving the embassy, as it was a provocative anti Palestinian act, during an existing violent riot by Palestinians aggressively attacking Israel’s border with Gaza. ( for giggles, imagine what would happen if North Koreans started similar violent rioting at the 38th)

 

that said, isreal has deemed Jerusalem as its capital for many decades, but this is not recognized by the rest of the world, largely because of the 1948 partition (intention), and so chump is in a stand alone position, in recognizing Jerusalem as the capital... but in recognizing this, moving the embassy is in line with the practice of having embassies in capitals ( even if he’s the only one who recognizes this) 

 

in doing this, he has gone against the rest of the world, and therefore is acting as a rogue nation, so very arguably, the embassy move was wrong, or at least, very ill advised, and resulted in substantial increased violent protests, doubling the death rate of the protestors, and he (and the US) has to own that increased death toll, along with the rioters, who are attacking Israel’s borders.

 

2/ I think everybody has the right to protest, but there are limitations on how to protest. Violent protests are resisted everywhere, by those being protested against, as is happening on Israel’s border.

 

so... yes to the right to protest... but also yes to Israel’s right to defend itself from the threat posed by the protestors (which is the other unasked half of that question)

 

3/ excessive force? probably.... but then, in accordance with the Geneva convention and accepted international law, isreal did give ample and adequate warning of how it would react to protesters who went beyond protesting, and entered into what they deem to be  violence against the state of isreal (an attack on its border)

 

the why of this arguably excessive response, might be rooted in previous actions taken against it by an organization intent on its destruction... which is a great motivator, and Israel’s justification

 

seemingly everybody is horrified by the results of these violent protests, and want them, and the defense means, halted... except the protestors... those self same protestors that are getting themselves killed.

 

lol... if there were cut and dried easy answers, the Palestinians wouldn’t have needed to riot in the first place... but hey, what can one expect from a terrorist organization in government.

 

 

[dexterm]

47 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

There were numerous other attacks, though. Both before the protests commenced and during. You seem to imagine these are legit or ought to be ignored. The same way your refuse to acknowledge that a lot of the issues have to do with the failed Palestinian reconciliation process and pressure applied by the PA. Or the blockade being maintained by Egypt as well.

 

Israel's current government is not suspected of being particularly wise nor capable. Pretty much as the neighbors' leaderships. Somehow you manage to alternate between disparaging it, and raising faux expectations it would act differently. At the same time - not a word on the Palestinian leadership's failures, specifically those of the Hamas.

 

Israel's failures on the PR front are nothing new. Been that way for years. Not that easy considering the optics and obvious faults. Given your agenda is decidedly anti-Israeli, not quite sure what's your complaint here. Your "answer" is the usual simplistic fare - I doubt the Israeli government was not aware of the expected PR hit, but given that it would suffer a PR loss anyway, and adding the realistic danger of masses breaching the fence, made the decision what it was. Somehow, no criticism offered on the Hamas egging people on under these circumstances.

 

Israel does not have a "vast arsenal of of non-lethal weapons". In fact, there was at least one state comptroller report touching on this very subject (linked several times on this topic and others). The means used in the West Bank do not necessarily apply to conditions in the Gaza Strip. From comments made by IDF officers, seemed like their effectiveness there is/was limited.

 

As for your global political forecast, even if that was so (and you've been going on about such upcoming changes for years - literately), waiting until they materialize and take effect, never mind relying on them fundamentally changing the Palestinians' lot, seems like a strategy designed to prolong the conflict.

Nothing against Israel. My agenda is decidedly anti the hateful religionist supremacist ideology of Zionism, as I have stated many times before. No doubt this will not help and you will regurgitate the troll again.

 

Well, if Israel does not have a vast arsenal of non lethal weapons (if that's true? ..link), perhaps it should stop exporting them and stockpile them more. Israel would have done itself more PR favors if it had used more non lethal force at the fence or in many cases none at all hundreds of yards from the fence against demonstrators running away.

 

An independent investigation might ascertain who was egging on whom...the Israeli high command/politicians with its shoot to kill policy or Hamas. 

Edited May 19, 2018 by dexterm

[dexterm]

17 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@dexterm

 

It would seem that you are against the notions of two wrong don't make a right in one instance, and advocate for the exact opposite on the other. Not expecting a whole lot of consistency in your rants, but still...

 

Oh I see...I think so anyway..your post was confusing. Is it the right of return thing you are on about?

 

Israel could continue to be a safe refugee haven for any Jew in the world who is genuinely persecuted, with a whole host of other resident visa categories..family reunion, marriage, retirement, religious studies, startup entrepreneurs, skilled etc just like any other true modern democracy.

 

But not just to be able to step off the plane from New York and on the basis of religion alone claim instant citizenship and a housing package on land confiscated from Palestinians, now languishing in refugee camps who still hold the title deeds to their homes. That's the supremacist bit I object to.