Israeli forces kill dozens in Gaza as U.S. Embassy opens in Jerusalem

[Morch]

5 hours ago, dexterm said:

The international laws and 4th Geneva Convention that apply to the OP Palestinian refugees who want to go home were framed as a direct result of the traumas your family faced, so that they would not happen again. We live in more enlightened times than the dark days of Nazism.

 

The basic formula for peace (and unimaginable prosperity for both sides) has been on the table for the last 16 years..return to 67 borders including land swaps, shared capitals in Jerusalem, compensation/recognition for all refugees. Israel at the moment refuses to accept any of those simple conditions, the latter two demonstrated  by today's events.

 

 

Them international laws do not stipulate that a violent mob can cross the fence, and take what it feels to be theirs at will. Funny that you should bring up Nazis, considering the flags some protestors were carrying. That certainly didn't help their cause much. Resettlement of refugees, Rights of Return and all the rest are matters handled via compromise and negotiations. Hamas is not into that, and the protests aren't about that.

 

As usual, your rendering of the "offer on the table" fails to mention that Hamas rejected that very same initiative, and that Hamas is not supportive of the terms stipulated. Making it a solely Israel issue is either lying or being misinformed. Pick one.

[Morch]

4 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Or they could do what Israel did, fight and win.

 

70 years of fighting led them nowhere. Each time the pick a fight with Israel, their situation gets worse. And no, nothing seen on this protest was aimed at an actual, or meaningful "win". What's the most that could be achieved? Rushing the fence, killing a few soldiers, perhaps capturing one? Making it to one of the nearby Israeli settlements and going through the same with civilians? They'd be killed or pushed back, and the retaliation would be harsher.

 

The only real point of the deaths, from the Hamas leadership's point of view, is working the international PR angle, and diverting local public attention from its own failures.

[Morch]

4 hours ago, midas said:

So  which country (or countries) can possibly act as a credible intermediary in any future potential peace talks now that the credibility of the USA in that role has been totally shot to pieces.?

Paddy Ashdown was interviewed on sky News earlier and mentioned the Secretary-General of the United Nations was calling for an independent enquiry into the killing of so many Palestinians. But of course as one expects now such independent enquiry immediately denied by Israel. So what possible hope is there for Israel to accept another country other than its closest ally to act as a true independent mediator?

 

"So  which country (or countries) can possibly act as a credible intermediary in any future potential peace talks now that the credibility of the USA in that role has been totally shot to pieces.?"

 

Notably, you do not actually answer your own faux question. Ashdown, apparently, already decided what's what - but unless I missed it, the last UNSG statement addressed Hamas responsibility as well.

 

https://news.un.org/en/story/2018/05/1009662

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, fanjita said:

I understand, Steve.  Just let them invade and kill Jews with their knives.  Is that better? 

 

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

There was no threat at all, hence the UN and many other countries' condemnation.

They were just there for a picnic.

[notmyself]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I've read every thread on this conflict that has been posted since this recent mass killing. 

 70 years!

[Morch]

4 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Low/zero Israeli casualties wrt to dozens of Palestinians killed and injured is not a ‘demonization’.

 

It’s evidence of overwhelming force, force that is beyond reasonable.

 

 By example: Police forces in Europe have frequently faced large scale riots in which rioters have used petrol bombs, and in some cases small arms. They have very rarely needed to resort to live arms fire and have never in modern history killed dozens of protesters or rioters.

 

I’ll remind you, non of these protestors entered Israel. 

 

Israeli forces killed these Palestinians in Gaza.

 

 

 

And you somehow assume that conditions are similar, and other situations are directly applicable...because?

[Morch]

4 hours ago, midas said:

I can't believe the international system can remain so flawed. How can there possibly be any justice under these circumstances? While people are being killed mercilessly.

 

Don't recall you having such issues when Russia blocked one UNSC resolution after the other dealing with the situation in Syria (and while being directly involved).

[notmyself]

22 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

70 years of fighting led them nowhere. Each time the pick a fight with Israel, their situation gets worse. And no, nothing seen on this protest was aimed at an actual, or meaningful "win". What's the most that could be achieved? Rushing the fence, killing a few soldiers, perhaps capturing one? Making it to one of the nearby Israeli settlements and going through the same with civilians? They'd be killed or pushed back, and the retaliation would be harsher.

 

The only real point of the deaths, from the Hamas leadership's point of view, is working the international PR angle, and diverting local public attention from its own failures.

 

It's a good thing you're not biased lol

 

These matters should be dealt with in court but for some reason they are not.... hmmm.... I wonder who's stopping it and why.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2018 by notmyself

[Morch]

4 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Your argument that the victims of systematic oppression brought it on themselves is not new, look it up.

 

I guess you are right though, the Palestinians could have sat quietly as they were systematically stripped of their homeland. 

 

The Palestinians could have done many things, in much smarter and wiser ways. It is not about ceasing to resist, but how they go about it. Most of the choices they made at relevant historical intersections, were the worst possible ones. Most of their leadership, past and present, failed them.

 

By the way, a sit-down protest would have made a great effect, without the casualties. Wouldn't help Hamas cling on to power though.

[farcanell]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

The Isrealis were and still are the Invaders.

Indeed.... about 3500 years ago, the Israelites (Jews) invaded and conquered the cannonites lands (now an extinct people, for all practical purposes), and a couple of hundred years later, king David unified the kingdoms of isreal and Judea

 

this land was referred to by the ancients as Palestine, by various spellings, amongst other things, and referenced the lands between Asia Minor and Egypt, which is actually isreal, by yet another name

 

the romans, after crushing the last Jewish rebellion, according to many scholars and historians, then reintroduced the Name Palestine, to reference the former kingdom of isreal, to sever the connections of the rebellious Jews from their historical homelands

 

from that time on, the Jewish states were variously occupied by different conquerors, with the British being the last foreign occupier.... the British then partitioned these lands, giving them over to the Jewish people, by and large, under the stupidest partition of lands imaginable, which had no chance of succeeding, as has been proven ( look at a 1947 partition map... whoever came up with that was on serious drugs!)

 

so... yes the Israelites invaded 3500 years ago.... but that was then, not now... now they are not invaders, but in receipt of the land as a gift, if you like, by the UN, to which they belong as a recognized nation since 1947, unlike the “state of Palestine” which is not a UN nation.

 

since 1947, they have protected themselves from other aggressive sovereign states, very effectively, annexing territory that if left in the hands of self declared enemies, would be national suicide

 

meanwhile, back to the present, if isreal declares it will fire on people who enter an exclusion zone which protects its borders, and then does so, those entering are stupid beyond belief ( esp after the very first shooting).... these people were warned... these people refused to heed the warning... these people suffered the consequence.... a consequence that most of us here, truth be told, knew would happen.

 

so... the land is now isreal, and only a middle eastern Armageddon will change that

[Morch]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

You are absolutely correct.

 

The Isrealis were and still are the Invaders.

 

It will also be vetoed at the UN by the USA.

 

For an independent and trustworthy mediator try Switzerland or perhaps Sweden.

 

Israel is not invading the Gaza Strip. If "invaders" was a reflection on your stance regarding Israel's existence itself, then you're quite out there. Before recommending countries as "independent and trustworthy mediators" one might at least get informed on their current governments' foreign policy and stance regarding matters. I somehow doubt Sweden, for example, qualifies.

 

And while going on about mediators - you do realize that these have to be accepted by the Palestinians as well, right? The same Palestinians who are having trouble achieving "reconciliation" between themselves for the past decade or so. That, and the Hamas not even into the whole peace process thing.

[observer90210]

Nobody is that stupid today.....take an action that creates riots and trouble in the area,  then call for boycotts or sanctions against many others, create inflation in oil supply, prices will  hike (and perhaps a few more arms deals). Everybody is happy ultimately and the whole thing is good for business.

[Morch]

57 minutes ago, notmyself said:

 

It's a good thing you're not biased lol

 

These matters should be dealt with in court but for some reason they are not.... hmmm.... I wonder who's stopping it and why.

 

 

 

Let's see - I was responding to a post opining that the Palestinian could emulate Israel, as in "fight and win".

 

My comment was about Palestinian efforts to do so being an ongoing failure (fact), their circumstances worsening after each instance (fact), and lack of attainable realistic goals (fact). It was further pointed out how this applies to the current situation. Followed by my take on who's benefiting and how from the death toll.

 

Your "insightful" and "related" response - I'm biased, and things should have been dealt with in court.

 

 

 

[Thorgal]

13 hours ago, Harveyg said:

"If Zionists"....     yes the name calling....   Zionism made to look like a bad word.  Perhaps some questionable things done, but the basic foundation, a homeland for Jews, I have no problem with.  Do you?

Yes.

Since when do religions own countries, capitals, etc...

Edited May 15, 2018 by Thorgal

[notmyself]

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Let's see - I was responding to a post opining that the Palestinian could emulate Israel, as in "fight and win".

 

My comment was about Palestinian efforts to do so being an ongoing failure (fact), their circumstances worsening after each instance (fact), and lack of attainable realistic goals (fact). It was further pointed out how this applies to the current situation. Followed by my take on who's benefiting and how from the death toll.

 

 

I agree with your first fact and also agree with your second but the third assumes as a fact that the Israeli government is interested in peace and that is patently obviously not the case.  Bibi has previously stated that he will never give the occupied lands back is one example as is calling it the seventieth anniversary of independence rather than creation of Israel. I do however agree with you that the Palestinians are wasting their time but not because they don't have a justifiable claim but because they have more muscle behind them (U.S.) 

 

 

 

[riclag]

 

What kind of people bring their children to face danger and violence at these protests

Edited May 15, 2018 by riclag

[smokie36]

18 hours ago, JimmyTheMook said:

Palestine rioting. No it can't be. Religion of peace.

 

How many Israelis died from slingshot wounds?

[dexterm]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

70 years of fighting led them nowhere. Each time the pick a fight with Israel, their situation gets worse. And no, nothing seen on this protest was aimed at an actual, or meaningful "win". What's the most that could be achieved? Rushing the fence, killing a few soldiers, perhaps capturing one? Making it to one of the nearby Israeli settlements and going through the same with civilians? They'd be killed or pushed back, and the retaliation would be harsher.

 

The only real point of the deaths, from the Hamas leadership's point of view, is working the international PR angle, and diverting local public attention from its own failures.

If this was all a plot initiated by Hamas to create bad PR for Israel well, the psychopathic IDF with 107 kills so far including 11 children, 2 paraplegics, and 2 journalists and 2,700 injured many by live ammunition, sure fell into that Hamas ambush. 

 

The truth is Israel did not know how to handle peaceful demonstrations, so resorted to murder and brutal repression to initiate chaos. Then in the fog of conflict blame the victims to maintain the perfect Zionist narrative. The usual MO.

 

I notice not a single word of sympathy from you about the death of innocents.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, notmyself said:

 

I agree with your first fact and also agree with your second but the third assumes as a fact that the Israeli government is interested in peace and that is patently obviously not the case.  Bibi has previously stated that he will never give the occupied lands back is one example as is calling it the seventieth anniversary of independence rather than creation of Israel. I do however agree with you that the Palestinians are wasting their time but not because they don't have a justifiable claim but because they have more muscle behind them (U.S.) 

 

 

 

 

My third "fact" mentioned lack of attainable realistic goal. It was made in the context of addressing the Palestinians (in this case, Hamas) choosing violence (or "fighting"). The Palestinian leadership tends to set imaginary objectives, and this time was no different.

 

The Israeli government not being interested in peace is nothing new, and was acknowledged and discussed on many of my posts. Then again, Hamas is not interested in peace as well - so not quite sure what your point was. Seems there's some conflating between Palestinians and Hamas, there.

 

As for your conclusion - if Israel is backed by such muscle, then there are smarter, wiser ways of addressing the situation than picking a futile fight. There are other ways of resisting an occupation or a blockade, and there are better ways of to improve the lot of your people.

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, RonniePickering22 said:

 

How many Israelis died from slingshot wounds?

 

Relevance?

[Scott]

Off-topic post removed.  

[smokie36]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Relevance?

 

OK How many Israelis died in this demonstration in total.

[dexterm]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I would say that their own leadership bears at least some responsibility for the deaths. Inciting people to confront a vastly superior force, with no tangible attainable goal attached is, at best, reckless. At worst, cynical.

 

Whether you like to accept it or not, the population of the Gaza Strip is almost entirely Muslim. It is also ruled by an Islamic organization. And, yes - the concept of martyrdom is very present in Islam, perhaps more so in the ME. Certainly within Palestinian society and especially with the Hamas. "Martyrs" are honored, their families taken care of and it does, sometimes, serve as a way out.

 

It doesn't mean all those killed were looking to be killed. It doesn't mean all were seeking martyrdom.

The usual fence sitting language intended to obfuscate.

>>It doesn't mean all those killed were looking to be killed. It doesn't mean all were seeking martyrdom.

Why don't you add: actually my words don't mean anything either because I dont know what I'm talking about since I cant see into the minds of the those killed.

 

...but that doesn't prevent you from muddying the waters with your besmirching innuendos. And you accuse Hamas of being cynical.

 

No compassion I notice so far for the innocent children killed or criticism of the psychopathic IDF who singled them out for execution as a lesson to others.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, dexterm said:

If this was all a plot initiated by Hamas to create bad PR for Israel well, the psychopathic IDF with 107 kills so far including 11 children, 2 paraplegics, and 2 journalists and 2,700 injured many by live ammunition, sure fell into that Hamas ambush. 

 

The truth is Israel did not know how to handle peaceful demonstrations, so resorted to murder and brutal repression to initiate chaos. Then in the fog of conflict blame the victims to maintain the perfect Zionist narrative. The usual MO.

 

I notice not a single word of sympathy from you about the death of innocents.

 

The Hamas had two objectives here. You conveniently referenced only one of them. The other one was diverting local public negative sentiment from its ongoing failure to address conditions in the Gaza Strip. If you wish to deny any such considerations on the part of Hamas leadership, go right ahead - not that it would do the remnants of your credibility much service.

 

I'll ask this again - who in his right mind brings children and disabled to a violent protest? What responsible leadership incites its own people to a futile charge against a vastly superior armed force? What attainable, realistic purpose would any of it serve anyway?

 

I never said anything about Israel not being aware of the Hamas leadership motivations, so the whole "ambush" angle is just something you injected to the topic out of nowhere. Sometimes there are no perfect, or even good choices.

 

What you decree as the "truth" is only partly so - the protests were not "peaceful", unless you have an idiosyncratic definition of the term. The IDF is indeed not set up to deal with mass protests such as this. Armies rarely excel in police work, and Israel's police force is not set up to deal with a situation of this scope. All this was known well in advance, both in Israel and the Gaza Strip. Doubt anyone on either leaderships is much surprised by how things panned out.

 

And no, I'm not a gusher, (not even a fake one) like some posters.

[Morch]

14 minutes ago, RonniePickering22 said:

 

OK How many Israelis died in this demonstration in total.

 

None. Relevance?

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, dexterm said:

The usual fence sitting language intended to obfuscate.

>>It doesn't mean all those killed were looking to be killed. It doesn't mean all were seeking martyrdom.

Why don't you add: actually my words don't mean anything either because I dont know what I'm talking about since I cant see into the minds of the those killed.

 

...but that doesn't prevent you from muddying the waters with your besmirching innuendos. And you accuse Hamas of being cynical.

 

No compassion I notice so far for the innocent children killed or criticism of the psychopathic IDF who singled them out for execution as a lesson to others.

 

Would have been better if you'd bother grasping the context related to the post. Or perhaps you did and ignored it in favor of making another pointless emotional rant. Obviously addressing the actual point is something that's not going to happen, as it might shed a less than positive light on the Hamas, and by extension, the Palestinians.

 

I won't add the nonsense you posted because it doesn't have anything to do with my words, which you freely twist.

 

There was no "besmirching", "innuendo", or "muddying of the waters"  -- other than in your personal references/attacks.

 

If you wish to hold that Hamas leadership is not cynical, go right ahead - despite the obvious fact that almost all political leaders are so, at least to a degree.

 

As said numerous times in the past, we can't all be drama queens, emo gushers, fire and brimstone peddlers, or soap box speakers. I leave these parts to other, who seem to need this forum as an emotional outlet.

 

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, Thorgal said:

Yes.

Since when do religions own countries, capitals, etc...

You might ask The Islamic Republic of Iran which bankrolls Hamas.

[Morch]

There may be some sort of unofficial understanding reached between Israel and the Hamas, mediated by Egypt. Which is how most such instances are addressed and resolved. There were rumors about such for a few days now. Perhaps something came out of it.

 

The gist of it seems to be Hamas winding down the protests and their intensity, Israel and Egypt will open border passes to allow transfers of supplies and of those needing medical attention.

 

By evening, there were but a few thousand protestors left in the border (some reports suggest by Hamas orders, others say many went to pay condolences to families of dead and injured). Remains to be seen how things will develop after funerals, though.

 

The border pass with Israel (the one burned a few times by the Palestinians in recent days) will open (I think in the morning) mainly for humanitarian aid and medical supplies, while  and the border pass with Egypt will remain open as well - with injured Palestinians transferred to hospitals in Egypt.

 

Provided it comes through, it's another indication that all leaderships involved are not interested in pushing things too far, and that a whole lot of the bloodshed is the result of political power plays. In all probability, each will try to market this as an achievement to the people.

[Thorgal]

43 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

You might ask The Islamic Republic of Iran which bankrolls Hamas.

 

There were no Iranians involved. So that's off topic.

Even so, the demonstration is a civil Gaza demonstration.

Hamas has little or nothing to do with it. The military wing of Hamas are actually the Qassam brigades, which didn't fire any round since IDF incursion of summer 2014.

 

The shoot-to-cripple policy of the Israeli "army at Gaza border is aimed at Palestinian "civilians".

 

Try harder.

[notmyself]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

My third "fact" mentioned lack of attainable realistic goal. It was made in the context of addressing the Palestinians (in this case, Hamas) choosing violence (or "fighting"). The Palestinian leadership tends to set imaginary objectives, and this time was no different.

 

The Israeli government not being interested in peace is nothing new, and was acknowledged and discussed on many of my posts. Then again, Hamas is not interested in peace as well - so not quite sure what your point was. Seems there's some conflating between Palestinians and Hamas, there.

 

As for your conclusion - if Israel is backed by such muscle, then there are smarter, wiser ways of addressing the situation than picking a futile fight. There are other ways of resisting an occupation or a blockade, and there are better ways of to improve the lot of your people.

 

Forget the UN as previously mentioned but there is always the ICC where you will find an upstanding body of fair minded people. As I remember this route was tried or err, suggested, as a possibility during the Obama administration and were told that it would never be allowed to come to pass and even if it were it would just be ignored.

 

The situation we see now and as far back as to the formation of Israel is not exactly unexpected and [spoiler alert] it doesn't turn out well for the Palestinians who end up as little more than serfs at the very best. Quite ironic that the Israelites supposedly escaped slavery and wandered around the desert for a generation. Whilst most Jews now accept this as pure myth, many forget that included in this myth are the title deeds to their claim of ownership. The state of Israel has known for a long time that they needed the title deeds and have spent vast sums of money on archaeology only to come up empty handed though as before, it will be ignored.

 

I don't know if you remember but then U.S. Presidential candidate Trump said he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and not lose support and it's the same with Israel evidently. Not that I don't blame the Palestinians too, both are children who should be left alone, unarmed, to fight it out themselves.