Court decides: AirBnB illegal in Thailand for daily and weekly rental

[newnative]

4 hours ago, JAZZDOG said:

Just one more reason to rent, not buy a condo. Buying a condo one accepts the fact he will be living just inches from  strangers he doesn't know, sometimes 1200 units on one acre. One is also dependent on an association to enforce the bylaws  When you pluck the money down your eyes are wide open to the fact you may have problems with both so when it comes to pass deal with it. You OWN all the problems. Add the perceived problem an Airbnb business model presents along with the above coupled with being saddled with a flawed investment likely to lose money over alternative investments, one should have rented, All this moaning and bickering is going to accomplish is make a bad situation worse pitting owner against owner making life more stressful while at the same time depressing values further due to negative PR.

Rent, enjoy for less, leave funds where they can actually make money. If life with condo dwellers and/or evil renters gets on your nerves just move on to a brand new condo with better views, amenities and neighbors. After all condos are really the "Taxis" of housing, like many things are better rented than owned.

     Except, except....my partner and I love owning our own space; a space that is ours alone, and not some landlords.   We love picking out a condo with a killer view to start with and  a good floorplan and then rocketing from there.  We love selecting and enjoying our own very nice furniture and not the crap that you usually find in rentals.  We love having our own special-to-us artwork on the walls, some of which we have been carefully moving with us from place to place for years.  We love being able to wallpaper rooms to our liking, add or remove walls, re-do kitchens, which often aren't that good even in so-called high-end condos,  re-do lighting, add custom bath vanities and bedroom armoires, which also are often poorly designed.   We like watching a big 55 inch smart tv with a sound bar rather than the sometimes  32 or 40s in a rental.  We always end up making our space uniquely ours.

     I'm sixtysomething and hoping reincarnation is real but, if not, this may be my only go around in life.  Am I going to spend each increasingly more precious year living in someone else's blah decorated-on-a-budget rental?   I think not.  But, that's just what floats my boat.  I'll be the first to say that if renting makes and keeps you happy, that's good, too.

[newnative]

4 hours ago, mokwit said:

There is the security issue. A hotel with as many rooms as a large condo almost certainly has in house security with knowledge of the type and MoU of criminals who check in to steal from other guests. All most condos have is a uniformed security guard who invariably sleeps on duty.

   Yes!  Hotels are dealing with vacationers and tourists and small groups in town celebrating something and business people in town for meetings and lots of guests with special needs and lots of other types, including some of the shady kind--and they're equipped, staffed, and trained for all of that.  Hotels are where short-term guests should be.  Hotels have an entirely different function from condos; that's why there are, rightly, separate rules and regulations for hotels and condos.

[newnative]

3 hours ago, JAZZDOG said:

Actually the right to rent daily/weekly would be a major positive incentive for me to purchase. Renting out your 3.5M condo for 15K , not that great unless there is appreciation involved. Renting for 1.4K per night makes more sense. Since it has become more common to do ST sale prices have gone up, it is looked on as a better investment by most. It would appear the occupancy rates are quite high, 75% would return nearly 10% annual return, ST maybe 3% and that would be 100% rented yearly.

    Are you factoring in paying someone to check in and  check out the illegal short-term renters?  Paying someone to clean the room each time the illegal renters move out?  Ditto paying someone to wash the linens and towels each time?  Have you factored in the monthly maintenance fee, and the electric and water charges?  Theft and breakage?  Paying whatever service that finds the illegal short-term renters?  It seems that to make a lot of profit on something like this you need to be handling a lot more than one rental or end up doing all those not-so-pleasant jobs yourself.  No thanks.  

[newnative]

2 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

It all sounds great on paper but at the end of the day ST rental is running a business. you need employees to meet and greet, check in/out, be available 24 hours a day. You need to employ cleaners after every visit, Linen needs to be laundered and changed, inventory checked etc. Guests can run up huge internet, water, electricity bills, running the airconn 24 hours a day with the doors open etc. Not to mention liability insurance, ongoing maintenance and repairs etc and Airbnb commission.

 

Conservative figres

Insurance and commission 100b per day

Cleaning 300 b per day

Laundry 200b per day

24 hour staff 200b per day

Electricity, internet, cable TV 200b per day

 

I know a guy that was doing it in Phuket and gave it up because after costs he was making nothing.

There are some pretty good net returns just doing LT rentals.

 

 

 

Just sorta posted the same thing--but not as well!

[newnative]

1 hour ago, utalkin2me said:

I can sympethize with all sides here, but if you bought a condo in pattaya or nana i think it is a bit dubious to complain about a party atmosphere in your building. 

 

Personally, i love using airbnb when i travel in thailand. Think three bedrooms with a private pool and full kitchen for 40 bucks a night. Hotels do not even get close. 

 

The actual decisions on these matters are always political, ie the people with money are the ones deciding. No politician cares that a condo on the beach is turning into a frat house unless he lives there. Point: there are no noble intentions, unfortunately. 

 

I think if we all stood back and objectively thought about this a while, we would decide you habe to let people rent their own properties. It is their property afterall.

 

The consequences of short stay occupants is simply life. You can either moan about it, or so something anout it like not live in nana. 

   I have no idea about Nana but I have lived in a number of nice, fairly upscale condo projects in Pattaya and none had what I would call a "party atmosphere"; although, this may have changed at some of them if they got invaded by illegal short-term renters.  But, your argument really has no relevance, anyway.  

   Yes, the condo owner owns his/her condo.  Along with that comes abiding by both Thai law and the condo by-laws.  If this doesn't appeal to you--you want to be able to raise pigs in your condo that YOU OWN, gosh gollly--then maybe a condo isn't for you.  

[newnative]

4 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

I recently stayed in a short term condominium unit for a week in Pattaya which was advertised on the net, it was part of a medium rise with a hotel within it, don't exactly know what the set up is there, but it was 20,000 baht cheaper for the week Vs a family of 6 staying in a hotel.

 

I cannot see how that would impact on anyone ?

 "I cannot see how that would impact on anyone ?"   Yes, that's the problem.

[JAZZDOG]

41 minutes ago, newnative said:

Just sorta posted the same thing--but not as well!

And then there is the problem with having a work permit which would be the best way to end the practice as far as farang owners. Even if a farang could qualify the WP would entail at least 4 employees and declaring 90K payroll per month. Without work permit the owner couldn't lift a finger, manage, reservations, even talk to guests. I know this is the deal in the hotel/guesthouse business. To make it profitable like you say one would need to own a block of say 5-10 that were purchased at a steal.

[cryo]

2 hours ago, JAZZDOG said:

And then there is the problem with having a work permit which would be the best way to end the practice as far as farang owners. Even if a farang could qualify the WP would entail at least 4 employees and declaring 90K payroll per month. Without work permit the owner couldn't lift a finger, manage, reservations, even talk to guests. I know this is the deal in the hotel/guesthouse business. To make it profitable like you say one would need to own a block of say 5-10 that were purchased at a steal.

10 hotels shut down by the local Hua Hin authorities yesterday for not having a Hotel licence. It's only a matter of time before this becomes the norm as I believe a number of these premises were quite large and well established.

 

Ken.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2018 by cryo

[crazygreg44]

so what's the problem?  Landlords could rent out their condo for two weeks, but actually  write a one-month-contract for the renter.  All they need to do is adjust the price. If the rent would be 1500 THB per day for 14 days, just write in the contract 750 THB per day for 30 days.

[Richard Pumpaloaf]

2 hours ago, crazygreg44 said:

so what's the problem?  Landlords could rent out their condo for two weeks, but actually  write a one-month-contract for the renter.  All they need to do is adjust the price. If the rent would be 1500 THB per day for 14 days, just write in the contract 750 THB per day for 30 days.

I see a lot of people thinking this is a solution to bypass the laws. In theory it works but in reality that's not how air bnb works. 

Airbnb does not allow you to conspire with your guest to create a fake contract. When you book Airbnb you book for a set period of time there is no monthly BS contract option.

This might work on Craigslist or via word of mouth but definitely not on a company that would be aggressively marketing your condo for rent like Airbnb.

 

[Richard Pumpaloaf]

11 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

It all sounds great on paper but at the end of the day ST rental is running a business. you need employees to meet and greet, check in/out, be available 24 hours a day. You need to employ cleaners after every visit, Linen needs to be laundered and changed, inventory checked etc. Guests can run up huge internet, water, electricity bills, running the airconn 24 hours a day with the doors open etc. Not to mention liability insurance, ongoing maintenance and repairs etc and Airbnb commission.

 

Conservative figres

Insurance and commission 100b per day

Cleaning 300 b per day

Laundry 200b per day

24 hour staff 200b per day

Electricity, internet, cable TV 200b per day

 

I know a guy that was doing it in Phuket and gave it up because after costs he was making nothing.

There are some pretty good net returns just doing LT rentals.

 

 

 

You are right, running an Airbnb is absolutely running a business but if managed correctly can be a semi profitable business. Your figures are not too far off but they can be a bit lower considering most airbnbs run as family businesses and there is no need to hire anyone and most houses do washing daily.

 

I've successfully ran multiple Airbnb locations in Phuket, BKK and the US over the last 3 years and I have had minimal issues with guests, but I make my house rules very clear from the beginning.

That being said I have not quit my day job and I am definitely not going to be able to retire on my Airbnb fortune but it definitely helps out a lot.

I always use Airbnb when traveling as I don't want to get sucked into the typical tourist traps. I personally feel that Airbnb is the absolute best way to travel. 

Anyways I hope they find a way to continue doing business.

[balo]

Nothing will change , dont worry they can't fine 100000 people . Just like they can't fine 25 million riding bikes without helmets. 

[sjaak327]

On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 10:00 AM, Dukeleto said:

Ahhh yes that would be the logical solution but the real drive behind this is the rich Thai elite families who own or have major shares in the big hotels and don’t want the competition. It’s really that simple.

 

What they are not understanding is that platforms such as Airbnb are significantly adding to the influx of tourists into the kingdom and the associated spend from those additional tourists. I would actually love to see them bar these platforms and watch the severe drop in tourist numbers they keep boasting about are getting bigger and bigger. They would be killing a massive sector of the tourist industry and the economic boost to other business supply these units not to mention the number of Thai people directly employed in the service or indirectly ancillary services which supply it.

Its all about keeping the elites happy which is why there is Junta in power in the first place. Thailand is for the Thais...my foot! Thailand is for the elite Thais...is really what they mean.

Drinking the cool aid ? If a platform like Airbnb would disappear, it would do absolutely zero to the tourist numbers. There is ample competition already and ample avenues for visitors to find accommodation. And despite all the bull, often the cheapest way to get a room is deal with the renter directly, without any third party like Airbnb, booking,com or agoda. Cut out the middle man, as money always sticks there, logic at work. 

[smx1313]

10 hours ago, newnative said:

   Yes!  Hotels are dealing with vacationers and tourists and small groups in town celebrating something and business people in town for meetings and lots of guests with special needs and lots of other types, including some of the shady kind--and they're equipped, staffed, and trained for all of that.  Hotels are where short-term guests should be.  Hotels have an entirely different function from condos; that's why there are, rightly, separate rules and regulations for hotels and condos.

A decade long building, renovating and/or flipping boom has created a modern nightmare that is part of daily life to many in NYC.

 In my Brooklyn neighborhood entire blocks of old shoddy row houses had been torn down and replaced with new shoddy row houses.

 

Building owners implement an illegal but hard to enforce scheme. 1/2 the units rented long term. 1/2 the units AirBnB. Essentially turning a residential building into a hotel.

The long terms, people with jobs, families, lives, find themselves living in a hostel/college dorm/party house.

There is a constant flow of AirBnBers, checking in/out at 2:00am, celebrating their stay in NYC near someone who has to wake up at 6:00am to go to work.

People will get a AirBnB apt so they can then sublet it to party promoters or even other AirBnB's.

Local newspapers love telling the story of someone retuning home to find that the AirBnB renter used their home for a sex and drug orgy

[smx1313]

3 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

Drinking the cool aid ? If a platform like Airbnb would disappear, it would do absolutely zero to the tourist numbers. There is ample competition already and ample avenues for visitors to find accommodation. And despite all the bull, often the cheapest way to get a room is deal with the renter directly, without any third party like Airbnb, booking,com or agoda. Cut out the middle man, as money always sticks there, logic at work. 

Hardly, I do know a few people who fall into the legal side of renting their space on AirBnB. It's been great for them.

I'm sure if I had the ability I'd do the same.

But even those case's, the laws are shifting against them, rental laws responding by getting tighter.

 

The truth is, those are apt's that middle class families used to live in.

Now they go to tourists paying top dollar. 

Finding an affordable place in NYC has alway been an issue. But because of AirBnB a dry spell has become a drought.

 

I've lived with neighbors who think they live in a party house. It's hell. 

If apt above me in my thin walled building became a hub of loud rotating travelers, it wouldn't end well.

But perhaps you can deal with it better than I can.

[falangUK]

On 5/16/2018 at 1:20 PM, zaphod reborn said:

Renting out condo units for less than a month without a hotel license was always a legal violation.  The court ruling was expected.  It doesn't apply to single-unit homes.  

Hey Zaphod,
What is a single-unit home? is it like a town house? Terraced house? detached? semi detached? 

Is these a place where this law is documented?
TIA

[falangUK]

On 5/17/2018 at 12:15 AM, JAZZDOG said:

You obviously don't understand the business. My guesthouse averages over 90% occupancy. If I relied only on walk-ins that number would drop to 20%. Booking fees average 15-18% and that is just added on as a fixed cost when determining rents.

If you have a better method of selling out rooms please share it with me.

Hey JazzDog,

How difficult is it for a Thai national to register 

1. For a hotel license?  or to

2. register under the Hotel Act?

will be most grateful for any advice :)

TIA

 

[metisdead]

Some inflammatory posts have been removed. 

 

A post containing a link to Bangkok Post has been removed as it was in violation of forum rules. 

[4MyEgo]

12 hours ago, newnative said:

 "I cannot see how that would impact on anyone ?"   Yes, that's the problem.

I don't buy all this crap that the purpose of wanting to get rid of Air B&B is because of owners complaining of security and too much noise issues in buildings, so step up security, and noise, well that's a world wide issue isn't it, that's why we police forces and security guards, and if the cops aren't doing their jobs well complain to the top or sell up.

 

If its that much of a "real issue" which I don't believe as opposed to big hotel companies complaining that they are loosing business because Air B&B is providing an alternative, i.e. much cheaper accommodation which is fair competition in an open market, then they should reduce their rates or not charge for extra bedding, I mean seriously, how can they justify 800-1200 baht per night for a fold up bed on rollers, do they pay their underpaid house keeping staff more for making those extra beds, I think not.

 

Fact of the matter is hotels have for far too long been ripping customers off with all the extras, and now that Air B&B is providing open and fair competition to the market they are crying foul, like I said, I saved 20,000 baht in Air B&B accommodation and loving it, our family keeps the noise level down wherever we go, its just common sense and curtousy for others residing in their properties, isn't it.

 

The consumers want it and it will be here to stay, trust me on that one.

 

The only way you can stop Air B&B in a strata condominium unit set up is to create a by-law whereby the majority of the owners have their meeting and vote on creating a by-law which states that no short term-lettings allowed in the building, and that is their call.

 

Your always going to get a clown who makes noise in any situation, hotel, motel holiday inn

 

 

 

 

[bkk6060]

9 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

The only way you can stop Air B&B in a strata condominium unit set up is to create a by-law whereby the majority of the owners have their meeting and vote on creating a by-law which states that no short term-lettings allowed in the building, and that is their call.

 

 

 

 

 

You are thinking too much like a westerner who thinks a rule or law on the books will be obeyed.

 

Two of the biggest violators in Pattaya are The Base and Centric Sea condos.

 

They have that rule on their by laws: no ST rentals.  Yet, 100's of ST renters are coming in everyday to these places congregating at the front gates waiting for their escort into the buildings.

 

Truly, it may be like most countries condo management has not much power.

Another thing about this is not just the by laws, but Thai law.  How about the law regarding ST rentals, unreported income, the non-reporting to immigration by the owner about the persons staying in their unit.  Several Thai laws being broken.  No one cares!

[mokwit]

What is clear is that AirBnB renters think it is fine and they have a right to break the law because it suits them, the fact that it doesn't suit people who actually live year 'round in the building is seemingly not something they have to concern themselves with. This is exactly the attitude that makes short term renters so unwelcome.

 

The law was made for a reason and part of that reason has nothing to do with a conspiracy of overcharging Hoteliers and everything to do with the unsuitability and possible problems of having short term stayers in a residential condo.

 

This silicon valley/millennial attitude that laws that don't suit their business don't apply has to be cracked down on. Laws must evolve as things evolve, sometimes to prevent something new that is undesirable, or alternatively not to have inappropriate barriers to something desirable e.g. e-commerce laws. The key point is that SOCIETY AS A WHOLE not money losing silicon valley companies decide. These are not yet, after many years business models that are viable without external financing, so if the external cash dries up then the UBER's and AirBNB's disappear and we are left with a vacuum they created by their "disruption" AKA selling $1 for 50c

 

Edited May 18, 2018 by mokwit

[newnative]

3 hours ago, smx1313 said:

A decade long building, renovating and/or flipping boom has created a modern nightmare that is part of daily life to many in NYC.

 In my Brooklyn neighborhood entire blocks of old shoddy row houses had been torn down and replaced with new shoddy row houses.

 

Building owners implement an illegal but hard to enforce scheme. 1/2 the units rented long term. 1/2 the units AirBnB. Essentially turning a residential building into a hotel.

The long terms, people with jobs, families, lives, find themselves living in a hostel/college dorm/party house.

There is a constant flow of AirBnBers, checking in/out at 2:00am, celebrating their stay in NYC near someone who has to wake up at 6:00am to go to work.

People will get a AirBnB apt so they can then sublet it to party promoters or even other AirBnB's.

Local newspapers love telling the story of someone retuning home to find that the AirBnB renter used their home for a sex and drug orgy

Hope some people read your post and see there is a difference between hotels and residences.

[4MyEgo]

22 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

You are thinking too much like a westerner who thinks a rule or law on the books will be obeyed.

 

Two of the biggest violators in Pattaya are The Base and Centric Sea condos.

 

They have that rule on their by laws: no ST rentals.  Yet, 100's of ST renters are coming in everyday to these places congregating at the front gates waiting for their escort into the buildings.

 

Truly, it may be like most countries condo management has not much power.

Another thing about this is not just the by laws, but Thai law.  How about the law regarding ST rentals, unreported income, the non-reporting to immigration by the owner about the persons staying in their unit.  Several Thai laws being broken.  No one cares!

I can appreciate Thailand is very very relaxed in many things, law, enforcement, etc etc

 

Unreported income is world wide, taxation department officials could be advised and act

 

Not reporting each time a tenant comes in has always been a problem, and I don't have the answer to that one

 

Condominium ownership is always going to be an issue, and one always has choices, i.e. to fight it all the way to the top to sort it, or take the easier alternative is they don't want the added stress and move, hoping that the next place isn't the same.

 

Life wasn't meant to be easy, we have to make it that way !

[bkk6060]

13 minutes ago, mokwit said:

What is clear is that AirBnB renters think it is fine and they have a right to break the law because it suits them, the fact that it doesn't suit people who actually live year 'round in the building is seemingly not something they have to concern themselves with. This is exactly the attitude that makes short term renters so unwelcome.

 

 

I do not agree.  They are not purposely breaking the law.

They are just people going online to make a reservation for holiday.

I think many they look for the best price, which in many cases is Airbnb.

Or also Agoda, Booking.com, etc, which are mostly hotel sites, have the ST rentals also.

[mokwit]

Just now, bkk6060 said:

I do not agree.  They are not purposely breaking the law.

They are just people going online to make a reservation for holiday.

I think many they look for the best price, which in many cases is Airbnb.

Or also Agoda, Booking.com, etc, which are mostly hotel sites, have the ST rentals also.

It is the letter who is actually breaking the law. If AirBnB are carrying a condo ad with a stated let of less than 1 month they are knowingly assisting a condo letter who is breaking the law, but I accept that assisting might not actually break the Thai Hotel Act as it is written

[mokwit]

Just now, bkk6060 said:

I do not agree.  They are not purposely breaking the law.

They are just people going online to make a reservation for holiday.

I think many they look for the best price, which in many cases is Airbnb.

Or also Agoda, Booking.com, etc, which are mostly hotel sites, have the ST rentals also.

It is the letter who is actually breaking the law. If AirBnB are carrying a condo ad with a stated let of less than 1 month they are knowingly assisting a condo letter who is breaking the law, but I accept that assisting might not actually break the Thai Hotel Act as it is written

[newnative]

45 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

I don't buy all this crap that the purpose of wanting to get rid of Air B&B is because of owners complaining of security and too much noise issues in buildings, so step up security, and noise, well that's a world wide issue isn't it, that's why we police forces and security guards, and if the cops aren't doing their jobs well complain to the top or sell up.

 

If its that much of a "real issue" which I don't believe as opposed to big hotel companies complaining that they are loosing business because Air B&B is providing an alternative, i.e. much cheaper accommodation which is fair competition in an open market, then they should reduce their rates or not charge for extra bedding, I mean seriously, how can they justify 800-1200 baht per night for a fold up bed on rollers, do they pay their underpaid house keeping staff more for making those extra beds, I think not.

 

Fact of the matter is hotels have for far too long been ripping customers off with all the extras, and now that Air B&B is providing open and fair competition to the market they are crying foul, like I said, I saved 20,000 baht in Air B&B accommodation and loving it, our family keeps the noise level down wherever we go, its just common sense and curtousy for others residing in their properties, isn't it.

 

The consumers want it and it will be here to stay, trust me on that one.

 

The only way you can stop Air B&B in a strata condominium unit set up is to create a by-law whereby the majority of the owners have their meeting and vote on creating a by-law which states that no short term-lettings allowed in the building, and that is their call.

 

Your always going to get a clown who makes noise in any situation, hotel, motel holiday inn

 

 

 

 

Most condos already have short-term rental prohibitions in their condo by-laws.  Plus, you have conveniently ignored the fact that short-term condo rentals are illegal in Thailand also by Thai Law.  The security and noise issues are just 2 of the many reasons why laws have been written that recognize that hotel guests are different from people living in residential units.  

[mokwit]

Or put it another way, if the Law and the condo owners association have voted not to allow AirBnB who the hell do you think you are that you have some kind of right to ST rent/let in that building.

Edited May 19, 2018 by mokwit

[zaphod reborn]

2 hours ago, falangUK said:

Hey Zaphod,
What is a single-unit home? is it like a town house? Terraced house? detached? semi detached? 

Is these a place where this law is documented?
TIA

I'm not aware of any Thai code that defines structures such as town houses, terraced houses, detached or semi-detached homes.  Companies or people who rent out rooms in buildings with 4 or more rooms for less than a month must have a hotel license.  https://pugnatorius.com/hotel-license/

[JAZZDOG]

37 minutes ago, zaphod reborn said:

I'm not aware of any Thai code that defines structures such as town houses, terraced houses, detached or semi-detached homes.  Companies or people who rent out rooms in buildings with 4 or more rooms for less than a month must have a hotel license.  https://pugnatorius.com/hotel-license/

With MORE than four rooms