Muslim leaders call for international protection force for Palestinians

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

Palestinians are some of the brightest and most avid learners in the Middle East despite all the obstacles thrown in their way. If they lack resources it is the fault of the occupying power Israel, who under the Geneva Convention has a duty of care to those it has displaced.
The poster was clearly a racist using stereotypes to denigrate Palestinians..look at the tone of the rest of his post.He was not questioning the quality of education in Gazan schools due to lack of resources. And you appear shamelessly to be supporting him.

 

I doubt you could meaningfully substantiate your opening claim. And it would still not apply anyway - we're talking about how things stand in the Gaza Strip (and to a lesser extent, the West Bank).

 

As for your usual blaming of  Israel for all things whatsoever, perhaps you'd like to reflect on the fact that education, higher education and academic achievement were not (other than Israel and several isolated cases) quite the hallmarks of ME countries. That you'd like to believe things would have been otherwise does not rely on any factual basis whatsoever. Other than in Israel, major investments in education (and specifically, higher education) is a relatively new trend in the ME (even more so when referencing quality over quantity). That you postulate the Palestinians' case would have been different "if only", is not supported by anything much.

 

I don't care for all the poster's views, nor am I responsible for his words. The comment made was with regard to thee bit you quotes. Now go on one of them faux moralizing sessions and spin away.

[Morch]

59 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Just give it time.

By their actions, the Israelis are sowing the wind and will in due course reap the whirlwind. They should take more notice of the words in their book.

 

Give it time, sure thing. Because decades of making the wrong choices aren't enough evidence that a new course ought to be set. Got to love posters pretending to support the Palestinian cause, while advocating prolonged suffering.

[Morch]

56 minutes ago, dexterm said:

I am trying to adhere to the mods' demand that posters be respectful. Some appear not to have got that message.

 

I always quote your posts in their entirety so that readers can judge for themselves who is twisting and spinning.

 

Less than nothing for the Palestinian cause is when knowledge of the injustice done to them is censored, silenced, and ofuscated, which I know is the hope and deliberate aim of most Israeli apologists.

 

You're a paragon of restraint and virtue. And yet, you deflect once more.

 

My posts (and some other posters') do not approach anything resembling the vehement, extreme, one-sided views your push. Nor do they feature the wholesale refrain from addressing issues reflecting negatively on one of the sides. As for "censored, silenced and obfuscated" - playing the victim card? I don't see you having trouble posting thousands of repetitive rants and tirades. Considering you are invested in presenting a rather limited point of view, what you "know" or claim to "know" is questionable, at best.

 

There is no equivalence between your posts and other posters'. There's no one persistently painting an extreme, one-sided opposite view, other than in your imagination.

[buick]

earlier on, i asked what 'card' the palestinians had left to play.  so far we've got:

 

the israeli's want internationally recognized borders

the israeli's want to reduce their military program and stop the mandatory military service

 

are there any more ?  i don't see those as particularly good cards to convince israel.  maybe a 2 and a 3 (and deuces aren't wild).

[buick]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

As for the second part - we'll have to disagree. Conquering territories and holding on to the land, making it "your own" isn't quite the accepted norm nowadays. And like it or not, maintaining the state of things is simply not viable. I don't think anyone imagines Israel handing back territory without proper assurances and the means to address its security concerns. So not quite the case of "land for paper". 

 

i would suggest that the conflict has been going on so long that it is grandfathered in to the past 'norms'.  not subject to today's new standards (for lack of a better word).  suffice to say, palestine would love to conquer israel and take the territory by force, if they could.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, buick said:

 

i would suggest that the conflict has been going on so long that it is grandfathered in to the past 'norms'.  not subject to today's new standards (for lack of a better word).  suffice to say, palestine would love to conquer israel and take the territory by force, if they could.

 

You could suggest whatever, but most of the world doesn't see it this way. It is also not a view alien to some in Israel. But regardless, even if someone does wish to claim it is Israel's "right" to keep territories conquered, it still fails to address the issues associated with the Palestinians being part and parcel of them territories. 

 

So much in the same way which Palestinians would be better off being realistic, Israel's interest would be better served by letting go of some dreams.

 

I don't know that there's a "Palestine" holding such a unified view, or that such fantasies as ascribed to it could be realized. But anyway, as said earlier - doubt anyone seriously expects Israel to give up anything without security concerns being addressed.

 

[candide]

1 hour ago, buick said:

earlier on, i asked what 'card' the palestinians had left to play.  so far we've got:

 

the israeli's want internationally recognized borders

the israeli's want to reduce their military program and stop the mandatory military service

 

are there any more ?  i don't see those as particularly good cards to convince israel.  maybe a 2 and a 3 (and deuces aren't wild).

You are right that Palestinians have no negotiating power. There is not even an economic argument as the Palestinians are financed by the international community, so their is not much cost of not heaving an agreement for Israel. So it's a total deadlock. Because of power imbalance, no fair agreement can be reached from direct negotiation between the two parties, and the USA will go on blocking any significant international pressure. The Palestininans will not accept it and Israel will go on using this opportunity to further expand settlements and make peace even more impossible.

 

From the Palestinian point of view, I think the only option is to dissolve the Palestinian authority, integrate a large Israel, and let Israel deal directly with the financial, social, and legal consequences of its past policy. Additionally, they may eventually become the largest demographic component of the extended state. However, this will also not happen because Palestinian politicians and bureaucrats will not give up the salaries and other benefits they get from the existence of a Palestinian authority.

[Morch]

55 minutes ago, candide said:

You are right that Palestinians have no negotiating power. There is not even an economic argument as the Palestinians are financed by the international community, so their is not much cost of not heaving an agreement for Israel. So it's a total deadlock. Because of power imbalance, no fair agreement can be reached from direct negotiation between the two parties, and the USA will go on blocking any significant international pressure. The Palestininans will not accept it and Israel will go on using this opportunity to further expand settlements and make peace even more impossible.

 

From the Palestinian point of view, I think the only option is to dissolve the Palestinian authority, integrate a large Israel, and let Israel deal directly with the financial, social, and legal consequences of its past policy. Additionally, they may eventually become the largest demographic component of the extended state. However, this will also not happen because Palestinian politicians and bureaucrats will not give up the salaries and other benefits they get from the existence of a Palestinian authority.

 

As a general comment, negotiations and their outcomes are a product of involved parties bargaining chips, skills and leverage. Assuming that scales are balances, or that that demands are treated on equal footing is not necessarily true. To be clear, this doesn't refer to the moral value of demands, but to their realistic application. Life ain't fair.

 

Wouldn't know that there's a "Palestinian point of view". Currently they support two leaderships finding it hard to re-conciliate, and that's where things stand for about a decade now.

 

Other than peacefully "integrating with Israel", and letting go of national aspirations not being the option of choice for Palestinians, there's this small issue of it not being entirely up to them. It would have to involve Israel, one way or another.

 

While the comment about Palestinian leaders not keen on throwing away their positions (or lucrative concessions going to family members), there's more to keeping the PA alive. Palestinian public opinion, while negative on most issues pertaining to the PA, is also apprehensive about alternatives.

 

Some posters chant Palestinians got "nothing to lose", but that's not entirely true. Palestinians living in the West Bank, especially in areas of lower friction with IDF and illegal settlers, are doing better than those living in the Gaza Strip. Life isn't great, to put it mildly, but it ain't as bad. And the PA is the largest employer - dissolving it would mean a whole lot of people losing their livelihood, which is a recipe for both hardship and trouble.

 

Dissolving the PA could easily see things getting worse - Israel taking back the reins, Hamas ascending to a position of power, or just plain chaos. None of these carry much promise. So, I think, barring extreme developments, people will prefer the devil they know. The situation in the Gaza Strip is different, but that's another story.

 

Also, dissolving the PA in no way implies anything about Israel going along with the above scenario. It may either re-introduce the full version of the occupation, or even let things spiral out of control. The prospects of moderate voices being dominant under such circumstances are slim.

 

[metisdead]

Some off topic posts and the replies have been removed. 

[JemJem]

Bunch of hypocrites !

 

For example, aren't the heavy majority of Kurds Muslims  (Don't get me wrong. For me, it doesn't/shouldn't matter what religion they are. But, I just want to show the hypocrisy of these leaders) ? Where is the protection force for the Kurds then ?! In recent years, Kurds have suffered a lot more than Palestinians have !

Edited May 28, 2018 by JemJem

[Scott]

20 minutes ago, JemJem said:

Bunch of hypocrites !

 

For example, aren't the heavy majority of Kurds Muslims  (Don't get me wrong. For me, it doesn't/shouldn't matter what religion they are. But, I just want to show the hypocrisy of these leaders) ? Where is the protection force for the Kurds then ?! In recent years, Kurds have suffered a lot more than Palestinians have !

As long as chemical, biological, nuclear weapons aren't used, they are pretty capable of defending themselves without too much assistance.  

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 12:27 PM, Morch said:

 

Give it time, sure thing. Because decades of making the wrong choices aren't enough evidence that a new course ought to be set. Got to love posters pretending to support the Palestinian cause, while advocating prolonged suffering.

If you are going to make comments about what I advocate, you should back it up with a quote. however I doubt you can do so as I've never "advocated" prolonged suffering. What I have said is that even if it takes 600 years, eventually the Palestinians will get their land back. 

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 2:42 PM, buick said:

earlier on, i asked what 'card' the palestinians had left to play.  so far we've got:

 

the israeli's want internationally recognized borders

the israeli's want to reduce their military program and stop the mandatory military service

 

are there any more ?  i don't see those as particularly good cards to convince israel.  maybe a 2 and a 3 (and deuces aren't wild).

Can't brutalise a nation's youth for generations and expect a "normal" society. Forcing young people to go and oppress another people has to have a very bad effect on Israeli society in the long run.

Also, it all has to be paid for, and every shekel spent on oppressing Palestinians is a shekel not spent on making a better society.

[Morch]

29 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If you are going to make comments about what I advocate, you should back it up with a quote. however I doubt you can do so as I've never "advocated" prolonged suffering. What I have said is that even if it takes 600 years, eventually the Palestinians will get their land back. 

 

I don't think anyone would argue labeling the circumstances of the Palestinians as "suffering" (without even getting into the question of causes and roots). What you seem to be advocating, or offering, is more of the same. To put it in other words, the longer the conflict remains unsolved, the more prolonged the suffering. If that's not a rather obvious consequence of your point of view - do tell.

[Morch]

27 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Can't brutalise a nation's youth for generations and expect a "normal" society. Forcing young people to go and oppress another people has to have a very bad effect on Israeli society in the long run.

Also, it all has to be paid for, and every shekel spent on oppressing Palestinians is a shekel not spent on making a better society.

 

That's not a real answer as to what "cards" the Palestinians hold, though.

 

Doubt there's much argument on the damaging effects the occupation implies for Israel and Israeli society. But the same (and worse) would apply to the Palestinian side. It's not as if their society benefited much from years of making all the wrong choices. Nor did their economy thrive.

 

Not a one-way street.

[buick]

here are a couple links that provide some commentary on some items i've noted.  one, that the palestinian leadership needs to give up and two, that the leadership itself is a largely responsible for the current state of affairs in palestine.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/palestinian-leadership-admit-failure-180121131933387.html

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/palestinian-leadership-catastrophe-180515110228635.html

 

instead of looking at the cards held by palestine, let's take a look at who has supported them in the past and/or fought israel.  in no particular order - lebanon, syria, jordan, iraq, egypt, saudi arabia, morroco.  i don't think any of those countries are interested in being a military  ally for them in the present day.  now they have iran, hamas, islamic jihad, and some palestinian organizations.

 

palestine doesn't have anything to give to/trade with israel (the 'cards') and they don't have any military power to take anything. 

 

i'd also point out many of the leaders of palestine's current miltary supporters hide in bunkers all day and all night.  when your military leaders have to hide like this, it is a telltale sign that you've lost.

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2018 by buick

[observer90210]

Have you thought of the plight of the poor global independant weapons traders ? What will they do if the war stopped ? Please some understanding here...

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, observer90210 said:

Have you thought of the plight of the poor global independant weapons traders ? What will they do if the war stopped ? Please some understanding here...

 

What "global independent weapons traders" ? Or rather, what is actually meant by that, even?