No ban on controversial toxic agriculture chemicals

[Dap]

One would hope there's a special place in hell (if it exists) for folk who condemn their children in this manner.

[bkk6060]

10 hours ago, kannot said:

From a perspective of someone who has to take care of 16 rai of  land I dont want paraquat banned. We used to weed  by hand for over 5 years no chemicals, staff were easy to find, but now staff are very hard to find and in general lazy, they do not  want to weed by hand, its leaves us  no alternative, no one will do the  work. Spraying is the only way staff will weed.

Why don't you pay them more and do the right thing?

Very selfish to use deadly chemicals to make things better for you and your 16 rai of land...........

[kannot]

9 hours ago, Lungstib said:

Am I now to believe that someone will be standing by in the hundreds of local shops selling these products and advising the buyer on how much to use and how often? Will then now add a minute label in very small print, the style of the one on alcoholic drinks, that suggests the user needs to act responsibly? 

And this I fully understand being in a similar position. Surely a safer, better alternative is the answer but if you walk into any local shop the 3 mentioned here are the common and popular brands and there are no other choices. It's easy to talk about "going organic" but if its hard to find and more expensive it wont happen. People sitting in the big city may not realize the reality of weed growth here but when a patch of garden takes only 5 weeks to go from hoed clear to 6 inch deep weeds its obvious that manual clearance is not financially possible. With agricultural products having such low prices growers are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

here its  more like  6  weeks to head height weeds sometimes!!

However I see how the locals  spray paraquat, they wait until the weeds are 3-4 foot high then spray tons of the stuff on, the way we do it is weeds never  get  bigger than 2-4 inch diameter and not more than 3-4 inches  tall. We only spot  treat them and this is done weekly, the amount used is actually  very small.

[kannot]

43 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Why don't you pay them more and do the right thing?

Very selfish to use deadly chemicals to make things better for you and your 16 rai of land...........

It does not  matter what you pay them and I have not mentioned salary here previously, for  your information 1  person gets paid 16000 baht a month, five  day week, free house, free  water, free  electric, free motorbike, free  fish, free  pineapples, work is 7-11am then 2-6pm due to heat.

Selfish, did 5  years weeding by hand, feel free to drop by and lets  see if you can do more than 15  minutes by hand I need a  good  laugh.

[kannot]

7 hours ago, Muhendis said:

Paraquat is used for many successful suicides. I would say that makes it impact on people's health.

 

Manually digging up weeds is very effective and if there is a staff shortage then there are machines available which are very effective and can be used by just one person.

Show me the machine that can walk up a 1-2 hill full of stones and out weeds between pineapples, "if" there is a staff shortage..............There has been now for a few  years, its very hard to get staff to work outside, they all want to be security guards so they can sleep all night.

People wanting to commit suicide will do it anyway they can, no paraquat, simple walk into fast moving traffic, worked for someone i knew in the UK, better still just drive in Thailand, sooner or later you'll lose the choice anyway.

[kannot]

3 hours ago, natway09 said:

Gotta maintain our rice production at ALL costs.

I thought Mr P may have taken a more sensible approach rather than ignoring the peoples health

Need more Burmese people to do the spraying

For  your information, Burmese will not do a  lot of this work anymore, they are only interested in factory jobs with overtime, once overtime is stopped they leave and move to another factory, You are  out of touch with the current situation

The new regulations also make it expensive and time consuming as they often just leave a job with no warning and the ridiculous new penalties for employing them without the crazy new permits are substantial

[Redline]

Time to get the cancer insurance that the same people sell

[canopy]

On 5/24/2018 at 5:32 PM, kannot said:

did 5  years weeding by hand, feel free to drop by and lets  see if you can do more than 15  minutes by hand I need a  good  laugh.

 

Kannot you are in denial. It is clear as day you poison because it is cheaper. Saying you can't find anyone is a feeble excuse. Hand weeding works and everyone did it before chemical farming arrived. You are a prime example why this stuff should be banned. To heck with health and the environment, you only care about cheapness. This is the way everyone is. Except maybe a few meaningless people like me that still hand pull and yes it costs more and is back breaking work and I don't expect anyone to convert as long as everyone can just reach over and misuse that horrible poison that is so cheap.

 

[rickudon]

It is all about education, education and a bit of research. Chemicals have a place in commercial systems but should be seen as a last resort. There are many alternatives which if promoted and properly taught are also effective.

 

Mechanical

1. Hand weeding as a start

2. Mechanical weeding systems

3. Heat. weed wands working on gas will wither weeds and leave no harmful chemicals.

4. Shade materials

 

Biological.

1. Use other plants to shade out/compete with weeds.

2. Biological controls - introduce insects, diseases which target weeds.

 

Environmental,

1. alter timing of planting, watering to reduce weeds competitiveness.

2. Alter the soil/drainage to also reduce weeds competitiveness,

 

Financial.

sometimes the cost of reducing weeds is greater than the crop loss.

 

Using all the above correctly is not easy.  Hence this needs to be promoted by the government by education. Also needs a bit of experimentation to get it right. Cost and effectiveness of any method needs to be assessed. The question is what price you put on the use of pesticides and herbicides to health.

 

I do not use any pesticides or herbicides in my vegetable garden, and have managed to reduce pests in some crops very effectively (not all).

Weeds are harder, but by concentrating effort on some beds to eliminate all weeds, these have stayed weed free (other than a bit of spot weeding) for 5 months. Areas weeded by Thai labour once only, need doing again after a month, they do not get all the roots.

 

Spraying is easy, but not always the best.....

[canopy]

What a great list. Good ideas. I'd like to see something like this be pinned in the organic farming forum.

 

However I am not convinced education is any sort of answer at all. You can educate people that smoking is bad for them from an early age but they start doing it anyway by the million. And you can't walk up to a smoker and simply educate him into stop smoking because it is in the best interests. Similarly, I think it is naive to believe educating farmers will somehow convert them all into a life of helping others and becoming shepherds of the earth. If you really think education is the answer, why not get the farmers in your area together and show them your ideas. See if it snowballs and becomes prevalent all over Thailand. But we all know what will happen don't we? Despite your best efforts takers will be few; most won't care one bit. And after you turn your back even your most ardent supporter will in time have gone back to the poisons. I've seen it over and over with all sorts of well intentioned people on various aspects needing attention in Thailand. Ideas can be good, but the education part never works. When it comes to protecting the environment and people's health, enforcement is the only way here I am afraid.

 

[Muhendis]

An addition to the list of preferred weed control methods is to use mulch around all those crops. I use rice straw gathered up after the rice harvest for all my young trees. It protects them from weed competition, keeps the soil cool and gives a good environment to loads of earth eating creatures which make the soil incredibly healthy. There are other farms nearby that plant rows of crops in ridged soil sheltered by hundreds of metres of black polythene. I'm not too happy about the plastic idea because it creates an environmental problem later, but that may be less of a problem than herbicides.

[kannot]

On 5/26/2018 at 10:42 AM, canopy said:

 

Kannot you are in denial. It is clear as day you poison because it is cheaper. Saying you can't find anyone is a feeble excuse. Hand weeding works and everyone did it before chemical farming arrived. You are a prime example why this stuff should be banned. To heck with health and the environment, you only care about cheapness. This is the way everyone is. Except maybe a few meaningless people like me that still hand pull and yes it costs more and is back breaking work and I don't expect anyone to convert as long as everyone can just reach over and misuse that horrible poison that is so cheap.

 

Tell u what smarty pants, you find someone by me who will do it................Ive been trying for 6  months, they stay a  few  days then leave, if you want to come and help weed 16  rai by hand feel free. 

"everyone" may well have done it years ago but NO ONE will do it here now, it  doesnt matter if you pay them 1000 a  day, none will get out of bed for less than 500 and thats for "watering trees" which is about the easiest job you can imagine. 

Ive offered up to 18000 baht for one person to work here, still no takers thats for a 5  day week.

You dont live in the real world from what I can see especially when it comes to finding staff in the current time period.

Having said  all that what would "you" pay someone to do this??? and where/how would "you" advertise. 

Ive used  facebook group and printed A3 posters and plastered them all round my area out to 10  miles.............no takers, theyd  rather have NO job than do this.

 

[kannot]

1 hour ago, Muhendis said:

An addition to the list of preferred weed control methods is to use mulch around all those crops. I use rice straw gathered up after the rice harvest for all my young trees. It protects them from weed competition, keeps the soil cool and gives a good environment to loads of earth eating creatures which make the soil incredibly healthy. There are other farms nearby that plant rows of crops in ridged soil sheltered by hundreds of metres of black polythene. I'm not too happy about the plastic idea because it creates an environmental problem later, but that may be less of a problem than herbicides.

For my garden area... 5 Rai ,I use 6  inch deep  stone, it also stops  erosion as Im on a hill, all trees  on sprinklers thats about 400 trees

[KiwiKiwi]

As I understand it, Glyphosate is benign by comparison with Paraquat. That should not be legally sold anywhere. But the manufacturers, who have seen their product banned in just about every civilised country. just reduce the price and dump it in the uncivilised countries, like Thailand, just like the cigarettes people.

 

Several examples in our little village of classic symptoms of paraquat poisoning leading to severe disability or death. Nationally it must be a tragic total - still, the people who make the decisions probably already have their commissions so that's alright then, the traditional Thai way...

[rickudon]

Education, education. Yes it seems like a futile task, so don't try. If the government was serious about it, we would see programs on TV which would push this agenda. Only ones i see about farming are usually promoted by chemical companies with loads of adverts for chemical fertilizers and pesticides. 

It needs demonstration plots to be set up locally by the government to show off ideas. An open day offering a bit of basic free food would get farmers in. Tour the plots with a spokes person, before you get the food. Eventually, it will start to click.

 

I know it's hard, been trying to educate the thai family for 7 years. Unfortunately no longer physically able to do much work myself. But they are beginning to show an interest - but i need good results first!

 

I remember when i first decided not to spray the black fly on my runner beans back in the UK. Yes, for a week it looked bad, then the black fly disappeared, no more problems rest of season. And after a couple of years the blackfly infestation would be under control within a few days. Nature at work. Weeds, yes harder to control. But experiment, try new ideas. One this year was to restrict watering to seeds or growing plants only, no more using hoses. That cut the weeds a lot, only needed to weed where i would water (dry season only). 

[canopy]

5 hours ago, kannot said:

Having said  all that what would "you" pay someone to do this??? and where/how would "you" advertise. 

 

I pay 400 baht a day to pull weeds and 450 to run weed trimmers because it's a tougher job. I have done both myself and would wish neither job on anyone. I get workers by the truckload consistently for years now, mainly opting for hilltribes these days.

 

It can be difficult to find workers for anything in Thailand; I've had my share of problems early on. I would recommend going around nearby villages asking poo yai baan's, go to the amphur and orbador offices and ask, or just if you see someone walking down the street with a weed trimmer ask, and village kids are another source looking for money with nothing to do. In all cases even if you don't find interest,, ask them if they know anyone to get more leads. I think the key is because I pay more than these people get for other things they show up and do the work. Sometimes people ask why I don't poison. It's actually difficult to answer this without feeling stupid as they know and I know how much hand weeding costs. For me it is because I am an environmentalist, but since no one else shares this trait it doesn't make sense to anyone.

 

[kannot]

12 hours ago, canopy said:

 

I pay 400 baht a day to pull weeds and 450 to run weed trimmers because it's a tougher job. I have done both myself and would wish neither job on anyone. I get workers by the truckload consistently for years now, mainly opting for hilltribes these days.

 

It can be difficult to find workers for anything in Thailand; I've had my share of problems early on. I would recommend going around nearby villages asking poo yai baan's, go to the amphur and orbador offices and ask, or just if you see someone walking down the street with a weed trimmer ask, and village kids are another source looking for money with nothing to do. In all cases even if you don't find interest,, ask them if they know anyone to get more leads. I think the key is because I pay more than these people get for other things they show up and do the work. Sometimes people ask why I don't poison. It's actually difficult to answer this without feeling stupid as they know and I know how much hand weeding costs. For me it is because I am an environmentalist, but since no one else shares this trait it doesn't make sense to anyone.

 

Im paying up to 900 a  day advertised at 18k a month 5  day week 8  hour  day, does not mean they are weed  pulling everyday, maybe once every 3-4  weeks this works out at  112 baht an HOUR and includes free house, water, electric, fish, motorbike. As ive stated none will get out of bed for less than 500.

I had  hilltribe  before in fact this one stayed the  longest 18  months, have also handed out leaflets to people  cutting weeds and and big construction projects. I dont need  weed trimmers I never  let them get bigger than a  few inches inches  tall as they are way easier to get out at this  height.

If you know of anyone who isnt workshy LET ME  KNOW by PM.

If as you say you get truckloads then maybe someone there wants a full time permanent job. The agents we used to use now no longer do this due to the new rules for immigrant workers and Hilltribes were often Burmese passport  holders.

The work is not 8  hours everyday as Im nearing the end of my 5  year plan, the work will mostly be watering trees  almost all on sprinklers, weeding pineapples maybe every 3-4 weeks and keeping the place tidy.

It really only needs  one person so advertised at 16k man 2  k woman or split however they want as womans work is only to  clean my house once a  week, my house is 50m2 so small.

I have done all this work for the last 5  years and still am, yesterday installing sprinklers = dig trench , glue  pipes etc I will pm you a  copy of  one of my flyers.

Not  only  that but we tell them start at 7am finish at 11am then have a  3  hour+ lunch break and do 2.30 till 5.30pm to keep them out of  midday heat.....if they want.

[canopy]

I use weed trimmers to trim down weeds only monthly on paths so they can be walked easily. But my goal is to completely eliminate the need for weed trimmers in the future by some combinations of building walking/driving surfaces that are impervious to weeds, planting with low ground cover like perennial peanut, and other ideas.

 

Your job offers sound generous and it's unimaginable that it doesn't draw in workers. As it's getting off topic can discuss by pm.

 

[kevc]

Yep like they wouldn't ban asbestos because it hasn't been proved its killed anyone in Thailand.

Sent from my SM-P901 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[seminomadic]

Please tell me "Oil Palm Farmer Union" is a typo

[kannot]

Time to quit, after 5  years real hard work and I mean HARD by me with often no  help Im selling up here.

Knowing what I now  know it is impossible for me to personally  continue.

From the poor  quality work done during the start of construction I took over all work myself and completed two small houses on my own, then followed 2  years of landscaping again mostly on my own.

Constant lazy, stupid, selfish staff are the last nail in the coffin, Ive invested enough of my time and energy.

It will probably take ages to sell but it goes up for sale tomorrow, so if you want 16 rai of  well sorted  land with all modern conveniences TITLE is NOR SOR SAM GOR one down from Chanote and pretty good title, 2  wells drinking quality water 80metres  deep and 50metres  depp with FRANKLIN pumps, all earthed electrics and proper trunked NYY 16mm cabling from electric  supply, all trees  on sprinklers, lake stocked full of fish some 4000 tilipia, red  bellied pacu and catfish.

There is a  well constructed concrete road all round some 800 metres and plenty of lights all LED on automatic timers etc. Concrete panelled  wall cost 650k alone, roads  cost 600k

Two small house one with double  block wall and aircon the other single block and  aircon. Electric stainless gate and a whole raft of other stuff.

Theres  more than enough room to build a much bigger  house which was my original plan but due to the crap builders and the fact we couldnt start a family I abandoned that 3  years ago its a good  plot.

All the work has been done by me every last block tile and concrete alone.

Anyone interested let me know  by pm Im 6  miles out of PRANBURI near Hua Hin. I have a mass of photos of all the construction. Looking for 8  million have spent 4  in total including the  original land  cost excluding my labour.

Given up  looking for staff, all have the same shitty attitude.

[Scott]

Troll post removed.

[observer90210]

This is a global racket from the chemical corporation giants, having the means to entertain, agressive lobbying and top level governance corruption. Nothing specific to Thailand.

 

But what the ruling idiots worldwide do not realise is that they themselves and their families are plainly, slowly and legally being poisoned.

[kannot]

The latest 4  applicants............

1 turns out to be yaba seller and all round thief, 2  years in Jail 7 years ago and  took some drug 5  days ago his admission, sacked em Id checked with Police

2 Fairly  Man says he wants the job can stay here will start tomorrow, tomorrow  comes and "his Mum is sick" cant stay here, not hired

3 Man 22 from Udon Thani, works on the land, ID  checked by Police another drug user did jail time Yaba not hired

4 Man calls today informs my Wife immediately he's Muslim?? turns out he cant start till 16th Ramadan and then wants all his religious holidays off, not hired 

Wife informs me when they work for a company they take off their religious days and ALSO the Buddhist holidays as  well...and get paid for it...Nuts to that

An endless file of dross so far we have to check all of them with the Police.