UK short stay visa for wife declined

[nigel starkey]

My wife recently applied for a short stay visa. She provided all the relevant documents, and support information required, however she was declined. 

The reason being that they found on record that she visited the UK back in 2005 and overstayed 2 years. She was totally naive at the time and couldn't speak English very well, she was totally dependent on her friend and her family. They lied to her and told her they had sorted out an extension of stay on her visa. After a while she became homesick and insisted she wanted to go back home, only then when she arrived back in Thailand she was informed she had overstayed in the UK.  

On the application form for a short stay visa it asks "have you traveled outside your country of residence excluding to the UK in the last 10 years". Her passport expired in 2007 and she hasn't renewed,   "have you been granted a UK visa in the last 10 years"  and have you been deported, removed, or otherwise required to leave any country, including the UK in the last 10 years". She marked the form as "No" because her overstay was over 10 years ago. 

The embassy gave the reason for her decline was for deceit because she failed to mention her overstay. Now she has no grounds for appeal and can not apply again for at least another 10 years. 

Tell me your thoughts is there something we've missed here? Is there a way we can appeal our case? 

Thanks

 

 

[faraday]

I'm not well versed in the UK visa laws, but there's alot of really horrible decisions being made there at the moment.

 

She answered the question correctly, so I would imagine you can argue this with them.

[BEVUP]

26 minutes ago, nigel starkey said:

After a while she became homesick and insisted she wanted to go back home, only then when she arrived back in Thailand she was informed she had overstayed in the UK.  

I find this bit intreging

To put it in relation to a Farangs episode here, we would certainly know of an overstay prior to being deported from here.

Not just to be able to leave country & find out in the home land

[RichardColeman]

14 minutes ago, nigel starkey said:

The reason being that they found on record that she visited the UK back in 2005 and overstayed 2 years. She was totally naive at the time and couldn't speak English very well, she was totally dependent on her friend and her family. They lied to her and told her they had sorted out an extension of stay on her visa.

Sorry, but I don't buy a word of it and would  not let her in either, ten years ago or not - yes I know the regs. Obviously a very untrustworthy character for visa status ! I dare say she was working illegally in a restaurant for 2 years or something to support herself as how else would she do so ? Have you honestly asked how she supported herself ? That will be the give away. Did she pay tax on her work ? No ? Can she show you her NI payments and a pay slip  ? Oh, surprise, surprise,  she was not given a wage slip. She probably got a room and a small wage to cover her time there given to her by her employer. Do you know this for a fact that the people lied to her, do you know them - or is it just the word of an overstayer ? Why was she not in control of her own passport ? Why did she not look to see the new 'right to stay longer' stamp ? Sounds like she went on a tourist visa, then started working illegally and now is rightly paying the consequences ! She;s playing you for the sucker she played immigration for ! 

 

 

 

[Mattd]

Unfortunately I think that the application form is not really clear enough, in that it does not clearly state anything regarding previous overstays.

Basically the immigration law states that any overstay whereby the person is 18 years of age or older and has previously overstayed, then this is grounds for refusal, it does not appear to state that this clears after 10 years has passed since the overstay.

I do think it is harsh for them to implement a 10 year ban on reapplying for deception, although TBH IMO she should of advised the ECO of the overstay in section 9.1 of the application form and somehow addressed the reasons why she would not overstay this time around (which would be very difficult!)

How you can address this going forward I am not sure, there are others on the forum who may have some idea if it is possible to reverse the application ban.

 

Grounds on which entry clearance or leave to enter the United Kingdom is to be refused

(7B) where the applicant has previously breached the UK’s immigration laws (and was 18 or over at the time of his most recent breach)by:

1. (a) Overstaying;

[Pat in Pattaya]

She has absolutely no chance of ever getting a visa again for the UK, it don't matter a jot if it was over 10 years ago, did you really expect that she would get a visa again? You must surely understand the decision.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Pat in Pattaya

[BobbyL]

Seems a perfectly fine decision. I am not sure how you can be shocked / surprised.

 

They are getting stricter, therefore why would they ever allow someone to return who has previously flounced the rules by TWO years! 

 

I would forget it and try and get a Schengen for a holiday. 

[Mattd]

28 minutes ago, BobbyL said:

I would forget it and try and get a Schengen for a holiday. 

Unfortunately, I think that her previous record will be detrimental to a lot of visa applications, especially Europe, USA & Australia / NZ.

[nigel starkey]

Richard Coleman - Pat - I can categorically stress she did not work and was supported and stayed with her friend (sponsor) at her family home, with her family.  She did wonder about her passport but the sponsor assured that her visa was being taken care of and she was OK to stay longer. At the time she couldn't speak or read English very well and was totally reliant on her friend, who obviously lied.  And about paying "the consequences" , what is the sentence for over staying a visa, 10 years..life. In Thailand when you overstay a visa you are black listed for a minimum of 10 years. You can get less than 10 years for man slaughter.  Also I haven't seen any visa application where you have to declare an overstay beyond 10 years, as was the case (form. VAFT1A). 

[faraday]

Nigel, how can you be sure she's remembered all the facts from 13 years ago?

Richard's post does suggest, that you might need to 'dig a little deeper'.

 

[Mattd]

22 minutes ago, nigel starkey said:

And about paying "the consequences" , what is the sentence for over staying a visa, 10 years..life. In Thailand when you overstay a visa you are black listed for a minimum of 10 years. You can get less than 10 years for man slaughter.  Also I haven't seen any visa application where you have to declare an overstay beyond 10 years, as was the case (form. VAFT1A). 

An overstay in the UK can result in a ban from 1 - 10 years, depending on the circumstances, given the circumstances you have described, then your wife was not caught on the overstay and left of her own free will and was not deported?

If this was the case, then the immigration system must have identified the overstay based on the airline record of her departure against her original leave to stay.

I cannot see where the application form specifically asks about overstay, you could say that question 6.6 vaguely asks this in a way.

As I said previously, if you take the form at its face value and if the information about your wife is correct, then there has been no intentional deception, as it was over 10 years ago, however, the fact that the information wasn't volunteered in the application has led the ECO, rightly or wrongly, to believe that there was the intention to deceive.

It will be a massive struggle to overcome this, not only the ban on reapplying, but just getting any ECO to approve a visa to the UK given the 2 year overstay and even if a visa was granted, then gaining  entry in to the UK might be hard as the border control official will have this info to hand as well.

Unless it is really critical to go to the UK together, then it might be best just to give up on the idea.

Failing that, then there must be someway of finding out if she was previously banned from entering the UK and for how long, how you go about this though, I have no idea.

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Mattd

[7by7]

5 hours ago, nigel starkey said:

The reason being that they found on record that she visited the UK back in 2005 and overstayed 2 years...……..

...............She marked the form as "No" because her overstay was over 10 years ago. 

 

From what you say it is quite possible that she left the UK less than 10 years ago. Arriving late 2005, staying for the 6 months life of her visit visa and then overstaying for 2 years would mean she left the UK some time in 2008.

 

Do you have the exact dates; at least of her first arriving in the UK with her visa?

 

How and why she left the UK is also a factor. Usually any ban is for 10 years, but can be for life if, as paragraph 320(11) of the immigration rules says,

Quote

there are other aggravating circumstances, such as absconding, not meeting temporary admission/reporting restrictions or bail conditions, using an assumed identity or multiple identities, switching nationality, making frivolous applications or not complying with the re-documentation process.

 

Of course, if she is known to have partaken in any illegal activities whilst in the UK, this will also have an effect on any future applications. You say  

5 hours ago, nigel starkey said:

They lied to her and told her they had sorted out an extension of stay on her visa

1 hour ago, nigel starkey said:

I can categorically stress she did not work and was supported and stayed with her friend (sponsor) at her family home, with her family. She did wonder about her passport but the sponsor assured that her visa was being taken care of and she was OK to stay longer.

Really?

 

Why did her friend do this; what did they have to gain by totally supporting a nonworking illegal immigrant for two years and going to such lengths to convince her she was in the UK legally?

 

Maybe she was the victim of some sort of modern slavery; maybe she was complicit and overstayed wilfully to work in some form or another. Either way, I'm sorry but I don't think she is being completely honest with you.

Edited May 24, 2018 by 7by7

[Formaleins]

You (your wife) can appeal the decision, she is free to try that route.

However, as many people have already said, a two year overstay is hardly a small mistake and if this had been the other way around here in Thailand you would face a similar situation.

The UK has been tightening up their pathetically loose immigration laws of late, mainly due to this type of abuse.

 

I would doubt that she will have much hope on getting that visa.

 

The only other thing that might be worth a try is to apply for a visa based on marriage, I have seen a few documentaries on YouTube where overstayers have returned to their home country, got their papers in order, married legally and then been granted this type of visa.

[Mattd]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

From what you say it is quite possible that she left the UK less than 10 years ago. Arriving late 2005, staying for the 6 months life of her visit visa and then overstaying for 2 years would mean she left the UK some time in 2008.

I also wondered this, however, the OP states this

7 hours ago, nigel starkey said:

Her passport expired in 2007 and she hasn't renewed,

It is possible that she traveled back to Thailand on an expired passport though, I do think there must be more to this than is being revealed.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Mattd

[RichardColeman]

3 hours ago, nigel starkey said:

I can categorically stress she did not work and was supported and stayed with her friend (sponsor) at her family home, with her family.  She did wonder about her passport but the sponsor assured that her visa was being taken care of and she was OK to stay longer.

Sorry mate still sounds like crock to me. A girl goes to the UK for a holiday and says the family said OK, just stay 2 years longer , we will feed you, house you, keep you warm, you do not have to do anything in return. Ask yourself if her story was TRUE why would the family lie to her about the visa ? What would they gain knowing that she was going to get into trouble at some time later ? No mate, she is taking you - and immigration previously - for a ride ! 

As for your application, I would say that whilst she would be free to make an application after 10 years (2018), she may NOT be given one when her circumstances are looked into by officials. Having the right to apply does not mean having the right to a visa !

 

[bobrussell]

Lots of moralising going on here from people that know the situation far less well than you do! Shakespeare wrote something along the lines that an empty vessel makes most noise! 

A two year overstay is not a minor issue and failing to declare it (however vague or unclear the questions are framed) is likely to have added to the problem. I have no idea (nor really worried) if the story you are getting is the whole one or not. You are the only one that can judge that.

If you wish to pursue the visit visa then you need to reapply and explain that the applicant was confused about the 10 years and was under the impression it did not need to be declared after so long.

A full and honest explanation of the overstay will be required and cast iron  reasons to return given. If you are both resident in Thailand and can demonstrate this then it should cover that aspect. The applicant must show that circumstances have changed completely to make a further overstay extremely unlikely. If she was not married at the time of overstay and is now then the risk of overstay will have changed significantly.

I am not saying this will work but I don't believe an overstay will necessarily lead to a lifetime ban.  I suspect the odds are stacked against you but not impossible if you provide a really sound application and catch an ECO on a good day!!!

 

An overstay and ban does not affect settlement visa applications in the same way it does for visit visas.

 

 

[theoldgit]

You (your wife) can appeal the decision, she is free to try that route

No she can’t, there’s no right of appeal against the refusal of a Standard Visit Visa.

[theoldgit]

A number of unhelpful posts removed along with a couple giving total incorrect information.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[jenny2017]

 

1 hour ago, RichardColeman said:

Sorry mate still sounds like crock to me. A girl goes to the UK for a holiday and says the family said OK, just stay 2 years longer , we will feed you, house you, keep you warm, you do not have to do anything in return. Ask yourself if her story was TRUE why would the family lie to her about the visa ? What would they gain knowing that she was going to get into trouble at some time later ? No mate, she is taking you - and immigration previously - for a ride ! 

As for your application, I would say that whilst she would be free to make an application after 10 years (2018), she may NOT be given one when her circumstances are looked into by officials. Having the right to apply does not mean having the right to a visa !

 

What were the questions? The version from the OP, or version 2? 

 

OP: "have you been granted a UK visa in the last 10 years"  and have you been deported, removed, or otherwise required to leave any country, including the UK in the last 10 years"

 

 

2: "have you been granted a UK visa in the last 10 years"  and have you been deported, removed, or otherwise required to leave any country, including the UK  before?"

 

  Why would they let somebody get in who already showed that she didn't care before?

 

   They usually want to know if people are honest and already had all on their monitor. 

 

   

Edited May 24, 2018 by jenny2017

[bobrussell]

Things change, people change and circumstances change!

Unless there is a deliberate attempt to mislead UKVI then everyone should have the chance to put their case forward.

I am not minimising the importance of someone overstaying especially for such a long time nor am I ignoring the deterrent and punishment element to a ban. A review should always be an option as lives can change  dramatically over such a long period.

Quite correct that the miscreant has to do most of the work though.

[nigel starkey]

4 hours ago, Formaleins said:

You (your wife) can appeal the decision, she is free to try that route.

However, as many people have already said, a two year overstay is hardly a small mistake and if this had been the other way around here in Thailand you would face a similar situation.

The UK has been tightening up their pathetically loose immigration laws of late, mainly due to this type of abuse.

 

I would doubt that she will have much hope on getting that visa.

 

The only other thing that might be worth a try is to apply for a visa based on marriage, I have seen a few documentaries on YouTube where overstayers have returned to their home country, got their papers in order, married legally and then been granted this type of visa.

We have been legally married for two years. And have proved that we have been together for 9 years

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by nigel starkey

[nigel starkey]

1 hour ago, bobrussell said:

Lots of moralising going on here from people that know the situation far less well than you do! Shakespeare wrote something along the lines that an empty vessel makes most noise! 

A two year overstay is not a minor issue and failing to declare it (however vague or unclear the questions are framed) is likely to have added to the problem. I have no idea (nor really worried) if the story you are getting is the whole one or not. You are the only one that can judge that.

If you wish to pursue the visit visa then you need to reapply and explain that the applicant was confused about the 10 years and was under the impression it did not need to be declared after so long.

A full and honest explanation of the overstay will be required and cast iron  reasons to return given. If you are both resident in Thailand and can demonstrate this then it should cover that aspect. The applicant must show that circumstances have changed completely to make a further overstay extremely unlikely. If she was not married at the time of overstay and is now then the risk of overstay will have changed significantly.

I am not saying this will work but I don't believe an overstay will necessarily lead to a lifetime ban.  I suspect the odds are stacked against you but not impossible if you provide a really sound application and catch an ECO on a good day!!!

 

An overstay and ban does not affect settlement visa applications in the same way it does for visit visas.

 

 

WE were only too happy tell them about the over stay if it was required. She gave a rock solid case for her application i.e. marriage, partner. house ownership, stay in the UK and extra's qualifications, photographic evidence. Many circumstances changed over the last 10 years plus since her overstay, 

[nigel starkey]

1 hour ago, jenny2017 said:

 

What were the questions? The version from the OP, or version 2? 

 

OP: "have you been granted a UK visa in the last 10 years"  and have you been deported, removed, or otherwise required to leave any country, including the UK in the last 10 years"

 

 

2: "have you been granted a UK visa in the last 10 years"  and have you been deported, removed, or otherwise required to leave any country, including the UK  before?"

21 minutes ago, bobrussell said:

Things change, people change and circumstances change!

Unless there is a deliberate attempt to mislead UKVI then everyone should have the chance to put their case forward.

I am not minimising the importance of someone overstaying especially for such a long time nor am I ignoring the deterrent and punishment element to a ban. A review should always be an option as lives can change  dramatically over such a long period.

Quite correct that the miscreant has to do most of the work though.

  Why would they let somebody get in who already showed that she didn't care before?

 

   They usually want to know if people are honest and already had all on their monitor. 

She entered on 20th March and returned to Thailand in May 2007. 

   

 

1 hour ago, jenny2017 said:

 

What were the questions? The version from the OP, or version 2? 

 

OP: "have you been granted a UK visa in the last 10 years"  and have you been deported, removed, or otherwise required to leave any country, including the UK in the last 10 years"

 

 

2: "have you been granted a UK visa in the last 10 years"  and have you been deported, removed, or otherwise required to leave any country, including the UK  before?"

 

  Why would they let somebody get in who already showed that she didn't care before?

 

   They usually want to know if people are honest and already had all on their monitor. 

 

   

 

[nigel starkey]

16 minutes ago, Puritan said:

Massage parlour comes to mind.....

You shouldn't relate the company you keep to all the women in Thailand. Saad!

Edited May 24, 2018 by nigel starkey

[johnson36]

Even if you did tell the embassy on application about the 2 year overstay they would no believe it and would still refuse a visa.

The story about her staying witha friend (not husband) that paid for everything sounds rubbish, doesn't even matter if it was true.

Most of us and on here and embassy staff think she either worked for cash in hand at a restaurant or worked in a massage parlour as many do. Several of my wifes friends have left husbands and gone to work in massage parlours so it is not unusual, they just want money.

There is zero chance of your wife getting a UK visa.

[Scott]

Troll post reported and removed.  

[Russell17au]

The question that I would like answered is how did she leave the UK on an expired passport with out the airline refusing to allow her to board the aircraft without a current passport plus how did she get through immigration on an expired passport as you must present your boarding pass and your passport when leaving the country and then claiming that she was not notified about her overstay until she arrived back in Thailand.

Sorry this story has too many things that do not add up. There is a lot more to this story that is not being told by either the OP our his wife. You cannot travel anywhere in the world with an expired passport.

[nigel starkey]

3 hours ago, johnson36 said:

Even if you did tell the embassy on application about the 2 year overstay they would no believe it and would still refuse a visa.

The story about her staying witha friend (not husband) that paid for everything sounds rubbish, doesn't even matter if it was true.

Most of us and on here and embassy staff think she either worked for cash in hand at a restaurant or worked in a massage parlour as many do. Several of my wifes friends have left husbands and gone to work in massage parlours so it is not unusual, they just want money.

There is zero chance of your wife getting a UK visa.

You can come to your own conclusions that's your opinion, However for so called experts on the matter you are completely off the mark.  She's never been been married I should know I've been with her for nine years and legally married for two years. 

 

57 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

The question that I would like answered is how did she leave the UK on an expired passport with out the airline refusing to allow her to board the aircraft without a current passport plus how did she get through immigration on an expired passport as you must present your boarding pass and your passport when leaving the country and then claiming that she was not notified about her overstay until she arrived back in Thailand.

Sorry this story has too many things that do not add up. There is a lot more to this story that is not being told by either the OP our his wife. You cannot travel anywhere in the world with an expired passport.

Her passport expired on the 12th Oct. 2009.

 

3 hours ago, johnson36 said:

Even if you did tell the embassy on application about the 2 year overstay they would no believe it and would still refuse a visa.

The story about her staying witha friend (not husband) that paid for everything sounds rubbish, doesn't even matter if it was true.

Most of us and on here and embassy staff think she either worked for cash in hand at a restaurant or worked in a massage parlour as many do. Several of my wifes friends have left husbands and gone to work in massage parlours so it is not unusual, they just want money.

There is zero chance of your wife getting a UK visa.

It's amazing how so called experts can be well off the mark.

[bobrussell]

I would advise contacting a good immigration specialist especially if the 10 year ban applies from the date of this application. The ECO (and presumably his/her manager) has to have reason to believe there was an attempt to deceive. I am taking everything said at face value but if there was a genuine reason to believe what you did was correct then it is worthwhile requesting reconsideration. 

You would need to be very specific about why you believed the overstay did not need to be disclosed. I have not seen recent application forms but the old VAF1 does clearly ask about a ten year period for previous applications and travel history. If this is the same on-line and travel and overstay was over ten years ago then I cannot see why this was refused as indeed UKVI have not asked. It would have made sense to disclose it in the other information part but I don't see where deception comes into it. 

The forum sponsors are a good place to start. They are registered specialists in the UK as well as working in Thailand.

I don't agree this is hopeless but it would require a bit of understanding from UKVI staff. 

Sorry - did a bit of rethinking and editing!

Edited May 24, 2018 by bobrussell

[Wake Up]

With so much uproar over immigration to the Uk it is no wonder they reject people who have overstayed for 2 years. You may be good people but on paper a 2 year overstay looks bad IMO. Imagine if the visa was approved and she overstayed again. Too risky IMO and sorry for your situation.