contract chicken farming

hank69 · May 28, 2018

hi, my partner is in talks about starting a chicken farm, work for the company cpf, baby chicken, grow out 40/50 day cycle, anyone do this before, knows anything worth passing on?

Speedo1968 · May 28, 2018

How much experience do either of you have either directly or via other family members of running a chicken farm ?

hank69 · May 28, 2018

1 hour ago, Speedo1968 said:

How much experience do either of you have either directly or via other family members of running a chicken farm ?

partners brother has been working abroad in a chicken farm for years, thats the main drive behind the farm idea, she works in my home country so will provide funds for the farm set up.... from what i under stand so far the land plot as been visited by the company and the local government has signed off on the proposed farm.

we will both continue to work our day jobs, brother and co will be responsible for the chickens.

Edited May 28, 2018 by hank69

grollies · May 28, 2018

Where do you live Hank?

kickstart · May 28, 2018

The letters CPF would put me off, working abroad and working in Thailand are two different things. They were a system around here the company gives you the baby chicks, you are responsible for them, use the company's feed, of course,and they buy back your chickens as you say at 45-50 days , at market price. you have no say in the pricing structure. In In this area they are 3 million chickens, now maybe more, Cargill is the biggest player, but they are some independent farms, what I hear they do ok ,but markets flutuate, feed prices go up , now fuel prices going up what that will do to prices I do not know. I would visit 1or2 CPF farms and find out who pays for what, how much feed is and final buying price is that price fixed, or variable. Now most farming enterprices in Thailand are strugling to make any money ,corn, rubber , catfish ect. I would do a lot more home work before comitting anything.

hank69 · May 29, 2018

14 hours ago, grollies said:

Where do you live Hank?

we live in europe, holiday sometimes in thailand, but not in the village.... i like the beach.. my partner comes from near nong khai, if she gets involved with the chickens the farm will be built on land they have... we will have no involvement with the farm, only financing the build to some extent.

thoongfoned · May 29, 2018

the wife contract farms, pigs though..... my take. if you can do the work to a good standard and keep the farm in good condition and make all the imporvements when and how the company say, have a good head for numbers and book keeping (loads of paper work) you/family will do ok. you need to know the basics, farm cost set up. running costs, live stock/feed/medication/bio security costs, all fixed? and of course have a good idea what it could/should return per month/cycle? good bit is company like cp will always pay on time. know afew people who have farmed/worked for them over the years, in pigs though.555

if you do go into it my advise would be put a good roof on the building, plenty of insulation, over the years you will get a lot of your money back on the cost of a good roof in energy saved, it can cost alot in electric/diesel trying to cool the inside of the barn and animals.

grollies · May 29, 2018

OK Hank. A decent-sized (2,000m2) chicken farm for 20,000 broilers is going to set you back around B3m.

Insulation isn't necessary as the shed should have tunnel ventilation. You keep the space between the tunnel roof and shed roof open using louvre vents and allow air to flow through.

Baby chicks need confining and heating for the first three days before they get the run of the shed.

Cooling as broilers grow is an issue. In the first couple of weeks you use natural ventilation keeping the shed sides down during the day.

Towards the end of the 45 day grow-out the shed will be closed up and the fans and evap pads running via temperature and humidity sensors.

Water is a big issue, evap pads can use up to 7 galls per minute (peak demand) and 20,000 chickens drink a lot. Water needs to be clean, not pond water, so a borehole is a good idea.

To save money on a build go with a shed around 15m x 150m you'll needs fewer pads and fans.

As far as suppliers go we've met with CP, Panus Poultry, Betagrow and Pongsat. CP and Panus are the two better companies however CP offered less per kilo per bird and profit looked around B15/bird with electric, rice husk, water, etc to come out of that. Their payment terms were better though at 2 weeks from collection. Panus the profit was slightly better at B18/bird but payment is 60 days from collection.

Biosecurity is a big issue for me. We'd visited around 10 farms and biosecurity is non-existent. Even the company's vet said you can be too clean??

For CP and Panus you'll need a wall 3 block high or concrete panels to keep dogs out.

I could go on forever but my main concern would be build and equipment quality, especially if you're not there and just chucking cash at it.

My ROI for our build is 3 years.

If you like the idea, go for it but it's like everything else investing here, if you can't afford to loose it.......

thoongfoned · May 29, 2018

disclaimer i know nil about chickens..... but the roof you describe will let alot of heat through. we have an evap farm with a double "tin" roof. min space between the 2 tin roofs is 70cm ish to max at 3m, second tin room is 2.5 m from ground level inside farm. pen sides, part open front/back. this time of year when the temp is 38 plus the "inside" roof still conducts alot of heat, even with the outside tin being foam backed and foiled. we need to insulate the inside roof to try and stop heat ingress...

the evap pad will not use much water if you have a big enough channel for the run off at the bottom and also a large out pipe going back to pump "tank" or hole in the ground. example lenght of evap pad 20 ish metre height 180cm, 60cm thick, run constant water through pad not more than 50 litres per hour used (you will recycle most of the water that is used throught the run off,channel) thats on a very hot day, if not that hot alot less water used. example of cost of pad type. import from sweden 180cm/30cm/60cm thick. 900/1200 baht ish cheap stuff same size china starting 300 baht ish. the cheap one will hold less water, the pad just acts like a sponge.

take time in chooseing the fan system too..... 3 blade/6 blade/diameter/dynamo ect ect...

outside temp today front farm 37/38. inside farm 5 metre from evap pad 26/27, fan end 70 metre from pad 28/29....

grollies · May 29, 2018

1 hour ago, thoongfoned said:

disclaimer i know nil about chickens..... but the roof you describe will let alot of heat through. we have an evap farm with a double "tin" roof. min space between the 2 tin roofs is 70cm ish to max at 3m, second tin room is 2.5 m from ground level inside farm. pen sides, part open front/back. this time of year when the temp is 38 plus the "inside" roof still conducts alot of heat, even with the outside tin being foam backed and foiled. we need to insulate the inside roof to try and stop heat ingress...

the evap pad will not use much water if you have a big enough channel for the run off at the bottom and also a large out pipe going back to pump "tank" or hole in the ground. example lenght of evap pad 20 ish metre height 180cm, 60cm thick, run constant water through pad not more than 50 litres per hour used (you will recycle most of the water that is used throught the run off,channel) thats on a very hot day, if not that hot alot less water used. example of cost of pad type. import from sweden 180cm/30cm/60cm thick. 900/1200 baht ish cheap stuff same size china starting 300 baht ish. the cheap one will hold less water, the pad just acts like a sponge.

take time in chooseing the fan system too..... 3 blade/6 blade/diameter/dynamo ect ect...

outside temp today front farm 37/38. inside farm 5 metre from evap pad 26/27, fan end 70 metre from pad 28/29....

Thanks for sharing. Just completing our build, 21m x 100m. Inner roof a little lower than yours at 2.1m. But the sides fully open 1.8m height along the shed length. The inner roof to outer roof apex one end is fully open, the other end has a louvre vent. Along each side there is also a vent gap of 0.5m along the shed length each side.

Re evap pads I'm hoping you are right from what I read up, max water through put can be high. We've 45m of the pads you describe.

Agree on the fans, all equipment really, worth spending money on. Fans 50" 6 blade with butterfly flap and cone vent.

I'll let you know what happens after our first batch of chickens.

Thanks for your info.

farmerjo · May 29, 2018

Hi Grollies,

Keep us informed how it goes.

I thought the key to growing them out was how you manage(control) the light in the shed.

Do the company design sheds cater for this.

grollies · May 29, 2018

12 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

Hi Grollies,

Keep us informed how it goes.

I thought the key to growing them out was how you manage(control) the light in the shed.

Do the company design sheds cater for this.

You're right. At the moment we've standard LED lighting. There's a company in the US does dimmable green spectrum systems which I'm getting next year.

The shed is our own design and build and as we're now skint the lights can wait. I've read online that the US have on-off lighting every two hours over the course of 24 hours which seems extreme.

I subscribe to Poultry Health Today and a recent article said to extend lighting to 18hrs per day to lower stress levels.

Other key to grow-out is increasing water pressure on the drippers in the last week.

Going to be a learning curve.

thoongfoned · May 29, 2018

24 minutes ago, grollies said:

You're right. At the moment we've standard LED lighting. There's a company in the US does dimmable green spectrum systems which I'm getting next year.

The shed is our own design and build and as we're now skint the lights can wait. I've read online that the US have on-off lighting every two hours over the course of 24 hours which seems extreme.

I subscribe to Poultry Health Today and a recent article said to extend lighting to 18hrs per day to lower stress levels.

Other key to grow-out is increasing water pressure on the drippers in the last week.

Going to be a learning curve.

good luck with it all! over the past 6 years the wife has been contract farming, for us its been a good investment/return. ups and downs of course but overall happy with what we did/are doing.

have you put you chicken farm in with the rubber? if so the trees will love it!

grollies · May 29, 2018

4 minutes ago, thoongfoned said:

good luck with it all! over the past 6 years the wife has been contract farming, for us its been a good investment/return. ups and downs of course but overall happy with what we did/are doing.

have you put you chicken farm in with the rubber? if so the trees will love it!

Have to get rid of the muck off-site 1km away. Stupid thing is we can import muck from friends chicken shed for the rubber as it's over a click away and he can take ours for his palm. Talk about spreading the risk.

farmerjo · May 30, 2018

An ex boss a few years ago had a chicken farm with a contract to steggles in Aus.

There was a cap on the growers/sheds to keep the price stable.

They were also rated every batch for who was performing better or if you results were poor your contract could be taken away and given to somebody else.

The actual day to day running was easy,he ran 5 sheds with one employee who did the 2nd half of the week so the boss could go to the football on weekends.

1st thing in the morning would be a walk through picking up the dead one's(not sure if he had an incinerator or just chucked them down a deep well.

Next a walk through will a round open top cage,grab 5 birds randomly and record weights.

Adjust the lighting(to much to quick resulted in 5 day old mini basket balls dead by heart attack)

Check feed and water supplies working.

Back to office in house(by 10.00am) to make more money on the stock market.

The company supplied workers,bobcats to clean sheds after batches and lay the new flooring litter,fill the silo's and collect the birds.

After doing broadacre farming for 20 years he said the chicken farming was like winning lotto every couple of months.

After 5-6 years steggles were closing down growers with old style sheds unless they upgraded as performance/results were a lot greater in the newer tunnel style.

By that time his land on which the old sheds sat had changed from rural to industrial with urban development so sold up and retired for good.

So i wish you well and hope it works out the same for you.

thoongfoned · May 30, 2018

talking of loss/death what is the expected target percent. 3% 6% ?

i find that the company the wife farms for have every little thing covered. ie basic starting pay rate per animal then loads of add on money for this or that if good, too no extra money to loosing money if not to company standards.... farm improvments every year or so, always met with a basic increase in starting money if new standards met.

Speedo1968 · May 30, 2018

On 5/28/2018 at 10:05 PM, kickstart said:

The letters CPF would put me off, working abroad and working in Thailand are two different things. They were a system around here the company gives you the baby chicks, you are responsible for them, use the company's feed, of course,and they buy back your chickens as you say at 45-50 days , at market price. you have no say in the pricing structure. In In this area they are 3 million chickens, now maybe more, Cargill is the biggest player, but they are some independent farms, what I hear they do ok ,but markets flutuate, feed prices go up , now fuel prices going up what that will do to prices I do not know. I would visit 1or2 CPF farms and find out who pays for what, how much feed is and final buying price is that price fixed, or variable. Now most farming enterprices in Thailand are strugling to make any money ,corn, rubber , catfish ect. I would do a lot more home work before comitting anything.

Agree 100%.

I have been in farming ( originally from UK ) since 1961. All kinds of farming but specialised in chicken and duck since the 1980's. Most of my work since the late 70's has been overseas and freelancing since 1983, everything from greenfield sites to rebuilding in Kuwait after the war and small / large scale farms etc. Been visiting / working in Thailand since 1996.

As an example of what companies like CP etc can do when things are bad, a company I worked with had close to 3,000 own, contract, sub contract farms etc. Things went bad and they closed almost all the contracted farms.

Yes, Hank really needs to look "outside" the box before stepping inside. Good luck to him if he decides to go ahead.

grollies · May 30, 2018

2 hours ago, thoongfoned said:

talking of loss/death what is the expected target percent. 3% 6% ?

i find that the company the wife farms for have every little thing covered. ie basic starting pay rate per animal then loads of add on money for this or that if good, too no extra money to loosing money if not to company standards.... farm improvments every year or so, always met with a basic increase in starting money if new standards met.

Expected mortality is around 1%.

Mortality in the first 7 days is down to the supplier, after that the farm.

Minimum bird weights apply at 45 days with extra rates over minimum weight.

My experience on visiting many farms, the build quality and cleanliness/biosecurity standards are woeful. It's not how we intend running our place. Can't wait for the vet's reaction when he discovers he needs to shower and don overalls before he can enter the shed.

thoongfoned · May 30, 2018

56 minutes ago, grollies said:

Expected mortality is around 1%.

Mortality in the first 7 days is down to the supplier, after that the farm.

Minimum bird weights apply at 45 days with extra rates over minimum weight.

My experience on visiting many farms, the build quality and cleanliness/biosecurity standards are woeful. It's not how we intend running our place. Can't wait for the vet's reaction when he discovers he needs to shower and don overalls before he can enter the shed.

1%, wow.

100% agree with shower in /out for farm visits (hot water shower).we have complete change of clothes, our shoes on entering the shower room, change again into our boots before first entrance door to farm building, then a spray room (people)then boot wash/dip, chemical then clean water.... hats and gloves should also be worn. hand wash/boot wash faciltilities at all doors in to farm.

another good thing to do is a farm log of all vehicles in out of farm area, plus people sign in and out with reason for visit. all above just basic company standards to meet GMP inspections. internation standards alot higher...

Edited May 30, 2018 by thoongfoned

hank69 · May 30, 2018

On 5/29/2018 at 1:06 PM, grollies said:

OK Hank. A decent-sized (2,000m2) chicken farm for 20,000 broilers is going to set you back around B3m.

Insulation isn't necessary as the shed should have tunnel ventilation. You keep the space between the tunnel roof and shed roof open using louvre vents and allow air to flow through.

Baby chicks need confining and heating for the first three days before they get the run of the shed.

Cooling as broilers grow is an issue. In the first couple of weeks you use natural ventilation keeping the shed sides down during the day.

Towards the end of the 45 day grow-out the shed will be closed up and the fans and evap pads running via temperature and humidity sensors.

Water is a big issue, evap pads can use up to 7 galls per minute (peak demand) and 20,000 chickens drink a lot. Water needs to be clean, not pond water, so a borehole is a good idea.

To save money on a build go with a shed around 15m x 150m you'll needs fewer pads and fans.

As far as suppliers go we've met with CP, Panus Poultry, Betagrow and Pongsat. CP and Panus are the two better companies however CP offered less per kilo per bird and profit looked around B15/bird with electric, rice husk, water, etc to come out of that. Their payment terms were better though at 2 weeks from collection. Panus the profit was slightly better at B18/bird but payment is 60 days from collection.

Biosecurity is a big issue for me. We'd visited around 10 farms and biosecurity is non-existent. Even the company's vet said you can be too clean??

For CP and Panus you'll need a wall 3 block high or concrete panels to keep dogs out.

I could go on forever but my main concern would be build and equipment quality, especially if you're not there and just chucking cash at it.

My ROI for our build is 3 years.

If you like the idea, go for it but it's like everything else investing here, if you can't afford to loose it.......

excellent thankyou. i will try to get them to ask about different company. 3 million was the number that i have heard before, build only. the plan is to try start the build after the rain finish, around new year. i think we will try to be in thailand before start. brother seems to think he can get the chick to 1kg+ in 40 day? also he says the space needed for 1 chick will be 10cm? does this sound right?

djayz · May 30, 2018

21 hours ago, grollies said:

Have to get rid of the muck off-site 1km away. Stupid thing is we can import muck from friends chicken shed for the rubber as it's over a click away and he can take ours for his palm. Talk about spreading the risk.

Just out of curiosity, why do you "have to" get rid of your muck yet import muck from just down the road?

Is that because of disease prevention?

Speedo1968 · May 30, 2018

On 5/28/2018 at 6:31 PM, hank69 said:

partners brother has been working abroad in a chicken farm for years, thats the main drive behind the farm idea, she works in my home country so will provide funds for the farm set up.... from what i under stand so far the land plot as been visited by the company and the local government has signed off on the proposed farm.

we will both continue to work our day jobs, brother and co will be responsible for the chickens.

Sorry for being so blunt with your initial question, but the poultry sector worldwide is renowned for making contracts difficult and closing down farms without a care. Especially true when it comes to subcontracted / sub-sub contracted farms.

As 'kickstart' says"working abroad and working in "Thailand" are very different things. It will also depend what position your partners brother held on the farm overseas. I worked as a freelance consultant in Saudi in the 1980's, it was a very big project ( Saudis first fully integrated multi million pound project and it is still in operation today ).

It employed a multinational workforce. The Thai people there worked in various positions, from engineering in the farms power station and de-sal plant to general workers. Irrespective of nationality those who have worked with parent stock have difficulty working with commercial birds. However, Thais are renowned for working in hatcheries. Remember, whoever is "looking after" the farm needs to be on call 24 hours a day, and if necessary get up and do something.

Try to visit some farms yourself but remember to respect health security requirements both ways i.e. where you visit and on return to your own land if it already has poultry. Whatever the government says bird flu and fowl cholera do exist here.

Regarding contracts, you need to find out if you are only paid for the expected feed consumption at slaughter, not what you may have to feed if everything does not go well, including management.

Housing - What will you do in the event of a total power / water failure ???

Housing. Who will design ? They need to have working experience of intensive livestock buildings. It should be well built not jerry-built. Easily operated and maintained with backup provisions for ongoing in-house repair or when there is a total systems failure.

As other posters have said, when it comes to equipment go for the best especially if you are going for a fully closed house. Munters are by far the best in the way of cooling pads ( ensure they are installed the right way round ). Depending on the bottom height from the ground of the pads it would be advisable to use two fibre water tanks one as fresh water to the pads and the other as the return water from the pads. The return water tank will allow sand particles etc. to settle and the water to the pads should be filtered. You can use removable panels inside to adjust air flow or a more basic curtain system. As Thailand has a humid climate you need good control of water flow to avoid litter problems.

Fans, you are spoilt for choice, when working with cooling pads they should be high volume / slow speed. They should be with shutters. Not sure about the real value of cones despite more than 30 years experience of them in different climates. Think about ease of maintenance in all aspects.

Controls can be basic or electronic, both work and both depend on the ability of the person looking after the livestock.

Thailand is generally humid, this makes it more difficult to control cooling pad and fans properly.

Lighting, bulb or tube ? Feather and skin quality will be affected by intensity and duration of light. Behaviour, such as aggression will be affected, however this IS also influenced by many other factors including genetics, floor, feed and watering space etc. During brooding correct lighting is vital.

Feed and drinking equipment needs to be suitable to both livestock and the worker. Easy control easy manage easy clean. Fall-back systems should be available in the event of major failures in electric or water supply if the house is fully automatic.

Brooding, how ? The biggest mistakes are often made here especially if the caretaker / s do not understand the principals, the housing systems, the climate day and night, the brooders electric or gas, correct feeding, watering etc. etc.

Bird health and bio-security. Check day olds for quality. Who will carry out the vaccinations ??? Who will look and check general bird health and understand the causes of any ill health ? Who will medicate and how and, when not to medicate ( i.e. withdrawl periods before slaughter ) ? Who will clean the building /s and how, reliability ? Turn-round times may be affected and this could be difficult if you are under contract.

Litter, as one poster said, where to dispose of it ? There has also been times when litter ( rice shell ) was not available. It will all depend on your location.

Paperwork as another post mentioned - oh yes ! It is in both parties interest, the contracting company to see what they will pay you and, for your farm to understand what is going on on the farm regarding costs. You can be sure that the recent fuel cost increase WILL add thousands of baht to each batch of birds you put through the farm.

The investments for a suitable project are high, the benefits variable depending on suppliers day-old quality / building and livestock management / re-stocking etc. and a lot of luck with external influences, disease, feed quality, weather...

Take heed, read easy to understand on-line articles, take note of people that have experienced farming and posted in Thaivisa there's a lot of good advice out there.

Good luck with your investment.

Speedo1968 · May 30, 2018

On 5/29/2018 at 1:06 PM, grollies said:

OK Hank. A decent-sized (2,000m2) chicken farm for 20,000 broilers is going to set you back around B3m.

Insulation isn't necessary as the shed should have tunnel ventilation. You keep the space between the tunnel roof and shed roof open using louvre vents and allow air to flow through.

Baby chicks need confining and heating for the first three days before they get the run of the shed.

Cooling as broilers grow is an issue. In the first couple of weeks you use natural ventilation keeping the shed sides down during the day.

Towards the end of the 45 day grow-out the shed will be closed up and the fans and evap pads running via temperature and humidity sensors.

Water is a big issue, evap pads can use up to 7 galls per minute (peak demand) and 20,000 chickens drink a lot. Water needs to be clean, not pond water, so a borehole is a good idea.

To save money on a build go with a shed around 15m x 150m you'll needs fewer pads and fans.

As far as suppliers go we've met with CP, Panus Poultry, Betagrow and Pongsat. CP and Panus are the two better companies however CP offered less per kilo per bird and profit looked around B15/bird with electric, rice husk, water, etc to come out of that. Their payment terms were better though at 2 weeks from collection. Panus the profit was slightly better at B18/bird but payment is 60 days from collection.

Biosecurity is a big issue for me. We'd visited around 10 farms and biosecurity is non-existent. Even the company's vet said you can be too clean??

For CP and Panus you'll need a wall 3 block high or concrete panels to keep dogs out.

I could go on forever but my main concern would be build and equipment quality, especially if you're not there and just chucking cash at it.

My ROI for our build is 3 years.

If you like the idea, go for it but it's like everything else investing here, if you can't afford to loose it.......

"Biosecurity is a big issue for me. We'd visited around 10 farms and biosecurity is non-existent. Even the company's vet said you can be too clean??"

Knowing poultry / duck farming well in Thailand I guess you meant by the above comment "Even the company's vet said you can be too clean??" is that government vet or company vet, "sure there is Bird Flu and Fowl Cholera here but we are not allowed to say that and unfortunately we are not allowed to visit the farms anyway to check !"

Speedo1968 · May 30, 2018

On 5/29/2018 at 3:39 PM, thoongfoned said:

disclaimer i know nil about chickens..... but the roof you describe will let alot of heat through. we have an evap farm with a double "tin" roof. min space between the 2 tin roofs is 70cm ish to max at 3m, second tin room is 2.5 m from ground level inside farm. pen sides, part open front/back. this time of year when the temp is 38 plus the "inside" roof still conducts alot of heat, even with the outside tin being foam backed and foiled. we need to insulate the inside roof to try and stop heat ingress...

the evap pad will not use much water if you have a big enough channel for the run off at the bottom and also a large out pipe going back to pump "tank" or hole in the ground. example lenght of evap pad 20 ish metre height 180cm, 60cm thick, run constant water through pad not more than 50 litres per hour used (you will recycle most of the water that is used throught the run off,channel) thats on a very hot day, if not that hot alot less water used. example of cost of pad type. import from sweden 180cm/30cm/60cm thick. 900/1200 baht ish cheap stuff same size china starting 300 baht ish. the cheap one will hold less water, the pad just acts like a sponge.

take time in chooseing the fan system too..... 3 blade/6 blade/diameter/dynamo ect ect...

outside temp today front farm 37/38. inside farm 5 metre from evap pad 26/27, fan end 70 metre from pad 28/29....

Temps seem very good, guess the very low inside ceiling helps and air space between ceiling and outer roof.

How high from the ground are the pads ? I agree 100% that Munters or good quality pads are worth paying for. Make sure they are fitted the correct way round ( a common mistake ) and properly maintained.

Ideally, if you have the height of the building below the pads 2 fibre tanks, one return flow ( allows sand etc. to settle out ) joined to supply tank with a filter for outgoing water. No risk of external pollution, easy to maintain and monitor.

Because of the general humidity in Thailand you do not use much water, however, the humidity can be a major problem in winter when trying to maintain good ventilation.

Are you using high volume or high speed fans ?

Side wall mounted fans have an advantage in that you have more control of ventilation at low levels, e.g. young birds.

Again, choose and place fans wisely for the shape of your building, buy the best that you can afford.

No need for expensive monitoring systems to control fans and pads, simple thermostats and humidistats ( if well maintained ) work well.

In another posting you mentioned lighting.

The old system 30 - 50 years ago was 23 hours light and one hours dark. In those days birds were not so genetically selected and stress was not a factor. Today everything must be suitable, feed, floor space etc. for a very highly strung bird.

Intensity, type of lighting and length of lighting ( hours on / off ) can of course affect the birds in the house. In fully closed houses birds still maintain some form of natural body clock, in more open houses this is more noticeable.

Light will also affect feather condition, skin quality and bad habits such as aggression, e.g. feather pecking, cannibalism, birds if so inclined will protect a particular drinking or feeding point for their own use.

In Saudi in the 1980's I experimented with tungsten bulbs set at high light intensity and found excellent feathering and skin quality occurred. The lighting was 23hrs per day. This was in purpose built houses and the heat from the bulbs was never an issue. You can of course use dimmer switches for the lights, birds will still move to eat and drink even in low light. You could try a lighting program that is similar to a normal day allowing for just enough light for the birds to see to eat.

A 2 on 2 off program only allows for 12 hours of feeding one reason for high stress levels with a bird that is born only to eat as much as it can. An 18 hour program is closer to a natural day length in some countries at some times of the year. It also fixes a separate time for eating and sleeping rather than being woken up every 2 hours; think how you would feel if you had to do that.

Great that you have already noticed the need to increase water pressure in the drinkers lines ( guess you are using cups or nipples ). Adjustment may be required at different ages i.e. 7, 14, 21 days etc. Check regularly for water points that are not working properly, you can often see this by birds behaviour or litter condition.

The best way to monitor birds for everything they are set to experience is to sit alongside them on chair and see what they do and where. Of course you may have a fixed program set by the contractor !

Good luck.

Speedo1968 · May 30, 2018

4 hours ago, grollies said:

Expected mortality is around 1%.

Mortality in the first 7 days is down to the supplier, after that the farm.

Minimum bird weights apply at 45 days with extra rates over minimum weight.

My experience on visiting many farms, the build quality and cleanliness/biosecurity standards are woeful. It's not how we intend running our place. Can't wait for the vet's reaction when he discovers he needs to shower and don overalls before he can enter the shed.

Some excellent observations there.

I would also check where the vet has recently visited, if he has been to a known sick farm don't even let him in the gate. Have them leave their car well away from the houses, provide boots at the gate and of course a foot dip ( why is it they never notice these ? ), a room to strip off, a separate shower room, a room that provides clean clothes. Some farms have a simple one way only system of doors. They should not bring anything with them in to the farm, all documents and pens etc should be discussed in a farm office.

Govt vets are the worst, company vets are not much better.

When I worked with a UK company covering farms in all countries except America, and returned to the UK for a few weeks, I would not be allowed anywhere near livestock for a month. When visiting Australia the companies there set me a one week break between farm visits.

Hygene in Thailand is abysmal having spent 16 years as a freelance consultant here I can think of back of beyond farms in many other countries that have excellent bio-security.

They will normally tell you that Bird Flu and Cholera does not exist here.

I did some work for a company in India that had a very high health status farm for producing eggs to be used in the manufacture of rabies vaccine. The govt vet was bared from visiting. The farm somehow experienced a bio-security breakdown which meant all birds had to be slaughtered ( actually birds cannot be slaughtered due to a disease under Indian regulations at that time. Birds must die naturally then be removed.

Good on you for implementing a shower policy.

thoongfoned · May 30, 2018

1 hour ago, Speedo1968 said:

Temps seem very good, guess the very low inside ceiling helps and air space between ceiling and outer roof.

How high from the ground are the pads ?   I agree 100% that Munters or good quality pads are worth paying for.   Make sure they are fitted the correct way round ( a common mistake ) and properly maintained.

Ideally, if you have the height of the building below the pads 2 fibre tanks, one return flow ( allows sand etc. to settle out ) joined to supply tank with a filter for outgoing water.   No risk of external pollution, easy to maintain and monitor.

Because of the general humidity in Thailand you do not use much water, however, the humidity can be a major problem in winter when trying to maintain good ventilation.

Are you using high volume or high speed fans ?

Side wall mounted fans have an advantage in that you have more control of ventilation at low levels, e.g. young birds.

Again, choose and place fans wisely for the shape of your building, buy the best that you can afford.

No need for expensive monitoring systems to control fans and pads, simple thermostats and humidistats ( if well maintained ) work well.

In another posting you mentioned lighting.

The old system 30 - 50 years ago was 23 hours light and one hours dark.   In those days birds were not so genetically selected and stress was not a factor.    Today everything must be suitable, feed, floor space etc. for a very highly strung bird.

Intensity, type of lighting and length of lighting ( hours on / off ) can of course affect the birds in the house. In fully closed houses birds still maintain some form of natural body clock, in more open houses this is more noticeable.

Light will also affect feather condition, skin quality and bad habits such as aggression, e.g. feather pecking, cannibalism, birds if so inclined will protect a particular drinking or feeding point for their own use.

In Saudi in the 1980's I experimented with tungsten bulbs set at high light intensity and found excellent feathering and skin quality occurred.    The lighting was 23hrs per day. This was in purpose built houses and the heat from the bulbs was never an issue.    You can of course use dimmer switches for the lights, birds will still move to eat and drink even in low light.    You could try a lighting program that is similar to a normal day allowing for just enough light for the birds to see to eat.

A 2 on 2 off program only allows for 12 hours of feeding one reason for high stress levels with a bird that is born only to eat as much as it can.    An 18 hour program is closer to a natural day length in some countries at some times of the year.    It also fixes a separate time for eating and sleeping rather than being woken up every 2 hours; think how you would feel if you had to do that.

Great that you have already noticed the need to increase water pressure in the drinkers lines ( guess you are using cups or nipples ).     Adjustment may be required at different ages i.e. 7, 14, 21 days etc.     Check regularly for water points that are not working properly, you can often see this by birds behaviour or litter condition.

The best way to monitor birds for everything they are set to experience is to sit alongside them on chair and see what they do and where.    Of course you may have a fixed program set by the contractor !

Good luck.

the first ceiling we had in the farm was lower, farm is on 2 main level, farrow and gestations (pigs) farrow is now about 200cm+/- this is the evap end the gestation is 250cm evap is 30/35cm off the ground level. in the past we bought the expensive (import europe) pad but now we buy the cheap china stuff, not much in it really, the import will hold water longer but for 5 months of the year the evap is always running 24h day coz the temp is set at 24/25. we keep the evap pad for 2 ish years then buy new, they get very dirty inside/blocked and also the rats can do damage even when you have a mesh protector in place. water is stored like you say in 2 tanks one in one out, cement tanks dug into the ground. we have high speed fans when running on electric but also tractor deisel power that can be as we need, fans/farm are very energy hungry so this time of the year we split electric with deisel power coz when we use 70 amp plus everything strugles to run, plus at that level of useage we can not run the submerge pump. at those temps 26/27 front 28/29 back we fail the company standard, to much heat and also the wind pull in the farm to weak, to maintain the standard they set are electric/deisel costs would be touching 25/30,000 baht a month. not going to happen, i tell them straight. when we have some spare money i will buy some more insulation for the ceiling, this will make the farm cooler, but it will not be cheap, what is?

grollies · May 30, 2018

Gents, thanks for the above comments which I'll go through and take notes.

Some good info and I'll keep you updated on how things go practically and financially.

grollies · May 30, 2018

1 hour ago, thoongfoned said:

the first ceiling we had in the farm was lower, farm is on 2 main level, farrow and gestations (pigs) farrow is now about 200cm+/- this is the evap end the gestation is 250cm evap is 30/35cm off the ground level. in the past we bought the expensive (import europe) pad but now we buy the cheap china stuff, not much in it really, the import will hold water longer but for 5 months of the year the evap is always running 24h day coz the temp is set at 24/25. we keep the evap pad for 2 ish years then buy new, they get very dirty inside/blocked and also the rats can do damage even when you have a mesh protector in place. water is stored like you say in 2 tanks one in one out, cement tanks dug into the ground. we have high speed fans when running on electric but also tractor deisel power that can be as we need, fans/farm are very energy hungry so this time of the year we split electric with deisel power coz when we use 70 amp plus everything strugles to run, plus at that level of useage we can not run the submerge pump. at those temps 26/27 front 28/29 back we fail the company standard, to much heat and also the wind pull in the farm to weak, to maintain the standard they set are electric/deisel costs would be touching 25/30,000 baht a month. not going to happen, i tell them straight. when we have some spare money i will buy some more insulation for the ceiling, this will make the farm cooler, but it will not be cheap, what is?

With you on the evap pads. Electric is budgeted at B35,000 per grow put and back up is via 50kva genny.

Same system on buried tanks for evap supply return.

Shed temp will be interesting and maybe we'll need insulation in the future.

Wind pull in the farm? I'm doing everything I can to ensure a tight shed, sealing gaps with silicone, ensuring the PVC sides and doors are secure and the only pull is through the evap pads.

thoongfoned · May 31, 2018

11 hours ago, grollies said:

With you on the evap pads. Electric is budgeted at B35,000 per grow put and back up is via 50kva genny.

Same system on buried tanks for evap supply return.

Shed temp will be interesting and maybe we'll need insulation in the future.

Wind pull in the farm? I'm doing everything I can to ensure a tight shed, sealing gaps with silicone, ensuring the PVC sides and doors are secure and the only pull is through the evap pads.

wind pull...... it is a little hand held machine that has a small fan on it, also digital themometer. turn it on hold at head hieght and it measures the pull of the fans/wind through the farm. they do three reading front, middle and near back farm, also temp at these stages, video and photos got on file for farm every month, monthly audit. its ties in with some paper work that is done daily with regard to inside/out temp, weather, fan useage, water useage, basic invronmenal stuff in/out the farm.....love paper work. have another set of paper work that goes in more depth for water in out daily.......

its not just the weather or shed with the inside heat, its also the lighting and the animals that help drive up the temp...

thoongfoned · May 31, 2018

13 hours ago, grollies said:

With you on the evap pads. Electric is budgeted at B35,000 per grow put and back up is via 50kva genny.

Same system on buried tanks for evap supply return.

Shed temp will be interesting and maybe we'll need insulation in the future.

Wind pull in the farm? I'm doing everything I can to ensure a tight shed, sealing gaps with silicone, ensuring the PVC sides and doors are secure and the only pull is through the evap pads.

talking electric, have you upgraded your meter? told the pea you have chicken farm? why i say is we get cheaper electric then say the people next door and we use loads of electric compared to them. meter we have max out at 100amp, we use 3000/4000 units every month price per unit 4.5 baht (4.47)..... price per unit goes up with usage...

along the pvc windows do you use the shade netting? alot of heat comes through the "windows", all of the wifes farm has shade netting x3 along both sides, plus at the farrow end we use the paper foil (stuff you lay under the tiles on the roof) inside to block all light heat coming in, the paper foil works well. some farms that i have seen have blocked all the windows up with block work.... but then you need more lights....

Edited May 31, 2018 by thoongfoned

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