Israeli army kills Palestinian nurse in Gaza border protest - medics

[car720]

20 hours ago, Morch said:

 

The details you present aren't verified. And yes, the same goes for nonsense implications she was carrying grenades and such. I could imagine, though, someone hit standing near or behind a person targeted.

Sorry but the collateral damage thing just doesn't work for me.  We are often told just how elite these guys are supposed to be.  A chest shot doesn't sound like collateral damage to me.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, car720 said:

Sorry but the collateral damage thing just doesn't work for me.  We are often told just how elite these guys are supposed to be.  A chest shot doesn't sound like collateral damage to me.

 

You're going on about memes, which is fine for some, I guess.

[car720]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You're going on about memes, which is fine for some, I guess.

meme

mēm/

noun

 

1. an element of a culture or system of behavior that may be considered to be passed from one individual to another by nongenetic means, especially imitation.

   • a humorous image, video, piece of text, etc., that is copied (often with slight variations) and spread rapidly by Internet users.

      

     You are totally correct in your assumption.

[geriatrickid]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

The topic is Gaza, Israel and Palestinians not Syria and Afghanistan

Unfortunately, the use of  children and the mentally disabled to  carry IEDs is common in Gaza. The use of women as combatants is also common. Therefore, if  a woman is in a  conflict zone and is intermingled with hostile combatants she will be  considered a hostile. 

 

The fact of the matter is  that only one version of events has been presented.None of it has actually been corroborated. Oh yes, it seems nice that this woman was a crusading nurse. It seems even more heroic that she was described as 21. Well, now the truth comes out;

 

WAFA the  Palestinian news agency confirms that she was 20. Awfully, young to be a nurse, or even a paramedic, but perhaps she was super brilliant, because surely any place where people launch repeated violent attacks against a defended border must be a place of great  genius.

 But wait, it gets better,  she couldn't  get into university because her grades were so poor. Instead she went to the local Nasser hospital in Khoun  ounis to work as an orderly and to learn some basic skills. Her work has since been described as having undergone paramedic training at the hospital.

How odd.

Very Odd.

Because the hospital says it  doesn't have resources to deliver basic medical care let alone train anyone. Know what else? Nasser hospital doesn't train paramedics. Only the PRCS and approved NGOs train paramedics.   The deceased was NOT a paramedic.

Know what else is odd? It is very,very, very unusual for a woman to be able to render medical assistance to a male in a patriarchal Muslim country. She couldn't just  put her hands on any guy she thought needed assistance. It is verboten.

 

This story starts with a lie and continues with additional falsehoods, all intended to mislead. The deceased was a willing participant during a violent attack against a sovereign country. The intent was to invade Israel.  She was killed  when the invasion was repelled.   That's the reality.. She was not a nurse, nor was she a paramedic.

 

 

 

[Morch]

 

@geriatrickid

 

IMO, you're overdoing it. That she wasn't very professionally trained isn't very relevant. As far as I'm aware there's no contesting claims that she did other than what was said - treating those hurt. Whether people like it or not, it's legit. The patriarchal society bit is actually addressed in the link bellow. While Arab and Palestinian societies are indeed patriarchal in nature, and do restrict women - reality does not always strictly conform to stereotypes.

 

A Woman Dedicated to Saving Lives Loses Hers in Gaza Violence

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/02/world/middleeast/gaza-paramedic-killed.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fmiddleeast

[wabothai]

15 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

 

Not brave, just stupid.

Her death achieves nothing. NOTHING. She participated in a violent attack on Israel and died. Propaganda for Hamas, but nothing else.  You will forget about her next month. Do you remember the names of the  jihadists who died last week? Last month? Last year? 5 years ago?

 

If she was that dedicated to improving the lives of the Arabs in Hamas ruled Gaza, she could have helped women with family planning so they were not denied birth control and forced to produce 10+ kids, or she could have taught sex education to the young  children so that they understand it is not appropriate for older relatives to  rape young boys and  girls aged 10 or 5.  Or she could have volunteered with one of the many NGOs working to address Gaza's obesity and smoking epidemic. More Gazans die in any given month due to heart & lung disease due to smoking and over eating than they do of  violence with Israel.

Nothing stopped this woman from having a peaceful life except her hatred for Israel and her being brainwashed by Islamic wackos.

 

You may want to rethink your last sentence

[dexterm]

2 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

LOL. You should apply for a job as a  spokesman for the Hamas dictatorship.

She was no medic? Know why? Because she was not a nurse and not a paramedic. Nor was she a physician nor even a physician's helper.

 

How do you know her hands were raised?  That's certainly new information. As you must have been present to have seen her hands raised, why would she have raised her hands if she was supposedly in the middle of helping someone. Did she  just raise her hands in joy as she  got to the rousing chorus of the beloved Hamas  ditty Death to the Jews and just could not contain her glee? Why would she raise her hands if there were no Israelis in proximity?

 

Identifiable in uniform? What  uniform? She was wearing a white coat. Butchers wear them. Stock boys wear them. Shopgirls at the cosmetics counter at Robinsons wear them. It means absolutely nothing. Wearing a white jacket doesn't  bestow magical powers and an aura of protection particularly if one is in the midst of a violent attack on someone. All that  we have here is a dead female wearing a white jacket who may have been hit by an Israeli bullet. It could just as well have been an attackers bullet since they are firing their weapons into Israel.

 

If you are so concerned for the safety of the attackers, go and tell them to stop attacking Israel. 

The Arab world certainly doesn't care. Today another bomb went off in Syria and more  little arab cherubs died than died last week  at the Gaza fence. I expect that a few more will be dead in Yemen and Iraq by the end of the day. Not a word from you though. 

 

 

Besides your far fetched fantasy of her being a terrorist disguised as a medic at the point she was cold blooded singled out and shot in the chest 100 yards from the fence, she would also have to have been a combination of Usain Bolt and Wonder Woman so that before the heavily armed and protected IDF were remotely threatened, she could sprint to and cross the double razor wire fence, leap across a defensive ditch, and mount the IDF raised entrenchment.

 

Your theory does not hold water, and does no favors for Israel, because everyone can see through it.

 

A normal army or police force's rules of engagement in a crowd control situation involve use of lethal force only as a last resort when their lives are threatened. That's why this is a war crime.

Edited June 3, 2018 by dexterm

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Besides your far fetched fantasy of her being a terrorist disguised as a medic at the point she was cold blooded singled out and shot in the chest 100 yards from the fence, she would also have to have been a combination of Usain Bolt and Wonder Woman so that before the heavily armed and protected IDF were remotely threatened, she could sprint to and cross the double razor wire fence, leap across a defensive ditch, and mount the IDF raised entrenchment.

 

Your theory does not hold water, and does no favors for Israel, because everyone can see through it.

 

A normal army or police force's rules of engagement in a crowd control situation involve use of lethal force only as a last resort when their lives are threatened. That's why this is a war crime.

 

You keep calling other poster's versions "fantasies", and yet your own "version" is hardly verified as well. Not expecting much consistency or honesty in your posts, but still...

 

And, of course, while you keep spewing "expert" opinion about "use of lethal force", "crowd control" and "rules of engagement" - you do not actually support your view with much. Not helped much by denying and ignoring every relevant fact which doesn't conform with your narrative.

 

That you announce something to be a war crime, doesn't make it so.

[ChiangMaiLightning2143]

If the Gazans give up their aggression and terror they will soon have all the safety and security they need.

No they are not getting their land back. My personal belief is “Israel” should never have been created all the Jews could have been accommodated in the USA after the war but that was not going to happen, thanks to anti Semitic attitudes, fear of communists and the failed colonial edicts of the British Empire (what everyone knew would fail).

Now here is the reality on the ground. There is one tiny little country in the whole world where a Jew can be a Jew without appologizing to anyone. Also there is a whole Arc of the Earth Island from North Africa to Indonesia where anyone can be safe and live freely as an Arab.

It is not “fair” The truth is every country in the world except for Iceland and part of Japan was stolen from the indigenous inhabitants (in recent history) and that is just the way it is. “Tough titties”.

Hamas is not helping anybody. They exist only though the futile struggle and conflict.

[dexterm]

26 minutes ago, ChiangMaiLightning2143 said:

If the Gazans give up their aggression and terror they will soon have all the safety and security they need.

No they are not getting their land back. My personal belief is “Israel” should never have been created all the Jews could have been accommodated in the USA after the war but that was not going to happen, thanks to anti Semitic attitudes, fear of communists and the failed colonial edicts of the British Empire (what everyone knew would fail).

Now here is the reality on the ground. There is one tiny little country in the whole world where a Jew can be a Jew without appologizing to anyone. Also there is a whole Arc of the Earth Island from North Africa to Indonesia where anyone can be safe and live freely as an Arab.

It is not “fair” The truth is every country in the world except for Iceland and part of Japan was stolen from the indigenous inhabitants (in recent history) and that is just the way it is. “Tough titties”.

Hamas is not helping anybody. They exist only though the futile struggle and conflict.

 

>>Also there is a whole Arc of the Earth Island from North Africa to Indonesia where anyone can be safe and live freely as an Arab.

..except of course if you are a Palestinian Arab living under occupation in Gaza and the West Bank having been ethnically cleansed from what is now Israel. Wish you could ask the young female medic in the OP whether she felt free and safe under Israeli fire preventing Palestinian refugees from returning to their homeland.

[ChiangMaiLightning2143]

It’s not fair Dexterm and Hamas or anybody else who sent her against the IDF snipers to render medical aid is not her friend.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and the replies have been removed. 

[dexterm]

45 minutes ago, ChiangMaiLightning2143 said:

It’s not fair Dexterm and Hamas or anybody else who sent her against the IDF snipers to render medical aid is not her friend.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

She bravely volunteered to help her fellow injured Palestinians. Your phrase "sent her against Israeli snipers" implies that it was some sort of foregone conclusion that she would be killed. No mention of course that the Israeli sniper had a choice to unnecessarily pull the trigger or not, even though she was absolutely no threat to him.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, dexterm said:

She bravely volunteered to help her fellow injured Palestinians. Your phrase "sent her against Israeli snipers" implies that it was some sort of foregone conclusion that she would be killed. No mention of course that the Israeli sniper had a choice to unnecessarily pull the trigger or not, even though she was absolutely no threat to him.

 

So in your opinion, the Hamas leadership is not accountable in any way for the casualties? What responsible leadership puts its own people in harm's way like that? Even if you wish to say Israel's response was OTT - what can be said about a leadership which ignores (if one is charitable) this, and eggs people on?

[dexterm]

16 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

So in your opinion, the Hamas leadership is not accountable in any way for the casualties? What responsible leadership puts its own people in harm's way like that? Even if you wish to say Israel's response was OTT - what can be said about a leadership which ignores (if one is charitable) this, and eggs people on?

Your theory is pure speculation straight out of the Israeli apologist playbook. Just because you say something often enough does not make it fact. Something that could perhaps be investigated in an independent and transparent inquiry, something that Israel has refused to co-operate with, actually doing itself a disservice, if what you continually surmise is true.

On the other hand there is no doubt at all that an IDF sniper pulled the trigger killing a defenseless non threatening female medic completely unnecessarily.

Edited June 3, 2018 by dexterm

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Your theory is pure speculation straight out of the Israeli apologist playbook. Something that could perhaps be investigated in an independent and transparent inquiry, something that Israel has refused to co-operate with, actually doing itself a disservice, if what you continually surmise is true.

On the other hand there is no doubt at all that an IDF sniper pulled the trigger killing a defenseless non threatening female medic completely unnecessarily.

 

What "theory" and what "speculation"?

 

Is it a "theory" Hamas rules the Gaza Strip? Is it "speculation" that Hamas leadership encouraged people to charge the fence? Is it a "theory" that Hamas demonstrated it can call off protests when it suits? Or is it, perhaps, a "theory" that a leadership is expected to act for the benefit of its people?

Edited June 3, 2018 by Morch

[Elfin]

8 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

 

Identifiable in uniform? What  uniform? She was wearing a white coat

Her mother has been shown on the television showing her blood stained white garment with the medical emblem on it and the hole that the bullet created.

I find your language when you type posts to be very extremist, radical and often inhuman. You need help.

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, Elfin said:

Her mother has been shown on the television showing her blood stained white garment with the medical emblem on it and the hole that the bullet created.

I find your language when you type posts to be very extremist, radical and often inhuman. You need help.

 

Yeah, be that as it may - it still doesn't provide an insight as to the circumstances or support the dramatic versions some posters dabble in. You sensitivities do not seem to include similar posts supportive of your own views.

[Elfin]

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

You sensitivities do not seem to include similar posts supportive of your own views.

Basically I hit the "like" button for those whose point of view I agree with-even you sometimes Morch:)

I don't like to type long posts so that is why I don't include POV's from other posters.

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, Elfin said:

Basically I hit the "like" button for those whose point of view I agree with-even you sometimes Morch:)

I don't like to type long posts so that is why I don't include POV's from other posters.

 

My point was that you don't seem to have much issue with extreme points of view or language when they are directed the other way. This would include both your own posts and those you click "like" to. I think the word I was looking for is "hypocrisy".

[dexterm]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

What "theory" and what "speculation"?

 

Is it a "theory" Hamas rules the Gaza Strip? Is it "speculation" that Hamas leadership encouraged people to charge the fence? Is it a "theory" that Hamas demonstrated it can call off protests when it suits? Or is it, perhaps, a "theory" that a leadership is expected to act for the benefit of its people?

A poster claimed that Hamas had sent the OP nurse "against Israeli snipers." You hijacked his post. You liked his post, and supported him at #164 "What responsible leadership puts its own people in harm's way like that?"
Pure speculation, and worse, undermines the young woman's bravery, as though she were some sort of zombie obeying someone's else's commands rather than her own conscience.

 

The only cowards are the IDF who cold bloodedly singled her out and pulled the trigger and the people who make excuses for them.

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, dexterm said:

A poster claimed that Hamas had sent the OP nurse "against Israeli snipers." You hijacked his post. You liked his post, and supported him at #164 "What responsible leadership puts its own people in harm's way like that?"
Pure speculation, and worse, undermines the young woman's bravery, as though she were some sort of zombie obeying someone's else's commands rather than her own conscience.

 

The only cowards are the IDF who cold bloodedly singled her out and pulled the trigger and the people who make excuses for them.

 

Deflect all you like. Make up whatever irrelevant nonsensical accusations. Doesn't change facts. Not even when you do your best to twist words.

 

Once more - that you keep pushing some unverified version of events, doesn't make it true. What I am talking about is not an "alternative version" but questions the responsibility of a leadership which had the power to prevent this.

 

Hamas rules the Gaza Strip. Not a theory.

Hamas leadership encouraged the people do charge the border fence, confront soldiers and whatnot. Not a theory.

Hamas leadership demonstrated it could control the protests effectively. Not a speculation.

Hamas leadership in the face of mounting casualties, egged its people on, while being aware of the consequences. No theory, no speculation.

 

If Hamas would have wished it, there would have been no protests, or no violent protests, or no futile attempts to rush the border fence, or no young medics on the field. They have already demonstrated their power to shut down the protests when they wished for it.

 

That you pretend to see no connection, and refuse to acknowledge any semblance of accountability or responsibility related to the Hamas leadership is disingenuous, at best. Particularly after posts criticizing the other side (and other posters) for such supposed denials. About as inconsistent and dishonest as can be expected.

[dexterm]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Deflect all you like. Make up whatever irrelevant nonsensical accusations. Doesn't change facts. Not even when you do your best to twist words.

 

Once more - that you keep pushing some unverified version of events, doesn't make it true. What I am talking about is not an "alternative version" but questions the responsibility of a leadership which had the power to prevent this.

 

Hamas rules the Gaza Strip. Not a theory.

Hamas leadership encouraged the people do charge the border fence, confront soldiers and whatnot. Not a theory.

Hamas leadership demonstrated it could control the protests effectively. Not a speculation.

Hamas leadership in the face of mounting casualties, egged its people on, while being aware of the consequences. No theory, no speculation.

 

If Hamas would have wished it, there would have been no protests, or no violent protests, or no futile attempts to rush the border fence, or no young medics on the field. They have already demonstrated their power to shut down the protests when they wished for it.

 

That you pretend to see no connection, and refuse to acknowledge any semblance of accountability or responsibility related to the Hamas leadership is disingenuous, at best. Particularly after posts criticizing the other side (and other posters) for such supposed denials. About as inconsistent and dishonest as can be expected.

 

How can I be twisting your words  when I quote you verbatim for forum members to judge for themselves?

 

I think it's disgusting that you attempt to vilify a brave young woman's death.

Edited June 3, 2018 by dexterm

[sanemax]

21 minutes ago, dexterm said:

 

How can I be twisting your words  when I quote you verbatim for forum members to judge for themselves?

 

I think it's disgusting that you attempt to vilify a brave young woman's death.

Its disgusting that you are using a Woman death to further your own Political agenda .

   If a life was what you cared about , you would be concerned about the 100 000's of  deaths in Syria .

  (Do spare me the *Oh, I do care about those as well*, excuse)

[geriatrickid]

9 hours ago, Morch said:

 

@geriatrickid

 

IMO, you're overdoing it. That she wasn't very professionally trained isn't very relevant. As far as I'm aware there's no contesting claims that she did other than what was said - treating those hurt. Whether people like it or not, it's legit. The patriarchal society bit is actually addressed in the link bellow. While Arab and Palestinian societies are indeed patriarchal in nature, and do restrict women - reality does not always strictly conform to stereotypes.

 

A Woman Dedicated to Saving Lives Loses Hers in Gaza Violence

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/02/world/middleeast/gaza-paramedic-killed.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fmiddleeast

It is not overdoing it to point out that this story is a propaganda piece, a construct based upon a falsehood. The very fact that the woman is described as a nurse when she was not shows what motive of the story: To create sympathy for an event by presenting the deceased in the most positive light as possible.

 

It is rather telling that so many media outlets have relied on the incorrect description. This is because they are merely repeating the same story with a few modifications for cost reasons.

 

In your rush to present yourself as morally correct and arguing  with reason you ignore the lie staring you in the face; that this story is BS. She was not a nurse, and not a paramedic. Instead, she was part of the attacking force with her role to provide support to the male attackers. This is the Hamas strategy, to position the young and the women  so that they are most likely to be injured and thereby  build support from those seeking a reason to attack Israel. Women are not allowed to co-mingle with the male fighters. It's another glaring fact of combat when muslims are involved. Ask anyone who has had boots on the ground experience in Afghanistan or Iraq. They are used as shields, as decoys as IED carriers etc. When these women are presented as valiant medical care workers by the  propaganda outlets, I laugh because it is just not true.

 

If you will notice, there have been several deceitful posts, particularly those from the resident marxist agitator, who has claimed the woman was a heroic nurse. You and others have fallen for it. His whole position is based upon the claim that she was rendering medical care. The truth is that she was in a  battle zone  and with an attacking group. In law there is a fundamental principle that holds that the fruit of the  poisoned tree is  poisoned, meaning that claims which come from a false statement cannot be accepted. All those  demanding ICC involvement overlook fundamental principles such as this.  

 

The core reality is that the woman was part of a violent, armed group laying siege to a legal  border with the sole intent to enter a sovereign nation and to wage war. When people attack like that, they usually end up dead.  The same people going on and on about the injustice, really don't care about these arabs. It is an opportunity to go after Israel, period.  You go right ahead with your  false assumption that those demanding the death of jews and the destruction of Israel can be reasoned with. They cannot. They would rather put the Israelis on a cattle car to  Dachau than to discuss legal niceties. That's the cold reality. You go back and forth with a couple of them and all you do is provide an opportunity for them to spread their hateful lies. In effect you are part of the problem.

Edited June 3, 2018 by geriatrickid

[Morch]

51 minutes ago, dexterm said:

 

How can I be twisting your words  when I quote you verbatim for forum members to judge for themselves?

 

I think it's disgusting that you attempt to vilify a brave young woman's death.

 

Yet another deflection. Yet more issues you run away from instead of addressing. Same old.

I think I've demonstrated how you twisted my words. Wouldn't be a first. It's what you do and how you post.

I did not "vilify" the young women killed. And if anything is "disgusting" it would be your habit of milking such deaths for every bit of imagined PR points they are "worth". Just like Hamas does.

 

So once more:

 

Hamas rules the Gaza Strip.

Hamas leadership exhibited control of protests.

Hamas leadership encouraged protestors to breach the border fence and clash with the IDF.

Hamas leadership chose this path, regardless of mounting casualties.

 

Do tell - how is the Hamas leadership not responsible (or if you wish to nitpick, partly responsible)?

 

[geriatrickid]

9 hours ago, dexterm said:

Besides your far fetched fantasy of her being a terrorist disguised as a medic at the point she was cold blooded singled out and shot in the chest 100 yards from the fence, she would also have to have been a combination of Usain Bolt and Wonder Woman so that before the heavily armed and protected IDF were remotely threatened, she could sprint to and cross the double razor wire fence, leap across a defensive ditch, and mount the IDF raised entrenchment.

 

Your theory does not hold water, and does no favors for Israel, because everyone can see through it.

 

A normal army or police force's rules of engagement in a crowd control situation involve use of lethal force only as a last resort when their lives are threatened. That's why this is a war crime.

You present your assumptions as fact. Your assumptions are based upon claims made by the  attacking group. Here are some facts that you cannot deny because they are the truth.

Fact: The woman was part of a group attempting to violently enter Israel.

Fact: There is no supporting information to support that she was actually shot by the IDF. NONE. There are claims that the IDF did it. No autopsy, no  photographic evidence, and my how the Pallywood  producers love their recordings. How odd that we don't have anything of this  nightingale of peace's  martyrdom. The attackers have been posting all sorts of videos to  their jihadi websites, but somehow they forgot this one.

She could have just as easily been shot by her own people as has been the case in previous deaths. She could have been hit by a ricochet, but no, you know that  an IDF  sniper targeted her, all because  it fits your narrative of demonization of Israelis.

Fact: The status of the IDF   carrying weapons or wearing some body armor means nothing. In Afghanistan, my colleagues LAV was destroyed by a woman with an explosives vest. The shrapnel left several seriously injured.  Armed IDF soldiers have been stabbed and shot by arab attackers. You expect the IDF kids to put their lives at risk to ensure that the people trying to kill them are not injured. Get real. It's a combat zone and the  Gazans are attacking.

Fact: The IDF is under no moral or legal obligation to show restraint when faced with a violent attack. They are allowed to stop a border incursion.

Fact: The woman was  part of an attacking force. That made her an attacker, no matter her intentions. The attackers were not going to enter Israel and give loving hugs and spread good cheer. their sole goal was to enter Israel and to harm Israelis.

 

 

 

[Morch]

19 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

It is not overdoing it to point out that this story is a propaganda piece, a construct based upon a falsehood. The very fact that the woman is described as a nurse when she was not shows what motive of the story: To create sympathy for an event by presenting the deceased in the most positive light as possible.

 

It is rather telling that so many media outlets have relied on the incorrect description. This is because they are merely repeating the same story with a few modifications for cost reasons.

 

In your rush to present yourself as morally correct and arguing  with reason you ignore the lie staring you in the face; that this story is BS. She was not a nurse, and not a paramedic. Instead, she was part of the attacking force with her role to provide support to the male attackers. This is the Hamas strategy, to position the young and the women  so that they are most likely to be injured and thereby  build support from those seeking a reason to attack Israel. Women are not allowed to co-mingle with the male fighters. It's another glaring fact of combat when muslims are involved. Ask anyone who has had boots on the ground experience in Afghanistan or Iraq. They are used as shields, as decoys as IED carriers etc. When these women are presented as valiant medical care workers by the  propaganda outlets, I laugh because it is just not true.

 

If you will notice, there have been several deceitful posts, particularly those from the resident marxist agitator, who has claimed the woman was a heroic nurse. You and others have fallen for it. His whole position is based upon the claim that she was rendering medical care. The truth is that she was in a  battle zone  and with an attacking group. In law there is a fundamental principle that holds that the fruit of the  poisoned tree is  poisoned, meaning that claims which come from a false statement cannot be accepted. All those  demanding ICC involvement overlook fundamental principles such as this.  

 

The core reality is that the woman was part of a violent, armed group laying siege to a legal  border with the sole intent to enter a sovereign nation and to wage war. When people attack like that, they usually end up dead.  The same people going on and on about the injustice, really don't care about these arabs. It is an opportunity to go after Israel, period.  You go right ahead with your  false assumption that those demanding the death of jews and the destruction of Israel can be reasoned with. They cannot. They would rather put the Israelis on a cattle car to  Dachau than to discuss legal niceties. That's the cold reality. You go back and forth with a couple of them and all you do is provide an opportunity for them to spread their hateful lies. In effect you are part of the problem.

 

The death of this young woman is used for propaganda purposes. This is to be expected, and is rather obvious even in some of the posts on this topic. I haven't "fallen" for any nonsense posts, and I'm not blind to Hamas (or posters) attempts of exploiting things for propaganda purposes. I'm not rushing into anything, and I don't care what posters think about me. So might as well save your personal level "analysis" for someone who gives two figs.

 

The "falsehood" bit, is where I think you're overdoing it.

 

Whether she was a "nurse", a "medic", a "paramedic" or a "volunteer" isn't germane. That many a media sources aren't too accurate about such details doesn't change the fact that she was supposed to be considered, under ROE, as emergency medical staff. Hence the white coat and tags. I know it doesn't look too "pro", but still. I think IDF soldiers ought to have been able to recognize her as such. If you think the IDF is infallible, I'll have a good laugh, and disagree.

 

You have nothing whatsoever to support the notion that she was "part of the attacking force". You have nothing to support that "her role was to provide support for male attackers". That you claim this to be the "truth" - doesn't make it so, not anymore than the versions others spew. And allow me to doubt your are in possession of in-depth knowledge of Hamas strategy and tactics (reminds me of a similar conversation we had in the past, about Sinai Peninsula Bedouins...that was a good laugh too).

 

Instead of going on on about Iraq and Afghanistan, have a closer look at protest footage, and try to accept that this is the Gaza Strip. Things are somewhat different - in part due to unique local circumstances, and in part due to the nature of the current protests. I'll have to point out that she was not armed, hence the whole "mingling in combat" angle is pretty much irrelevant.

 

If by claiming she was "part of a violent, armed group" you imply she was a member of Hamas etc., I'm pretty sure you're wrong - or that it would be hard to substantiate (quite possibly co-opted after she died, though). There is no evidence she directly partook in the violence, or attempted to breach the fence. Quite a ways from it when she was shot.

 

No issues with your assessment of how some posters exploit these deaths (and for sure, Hamas leadership does the same, as do Arab and Muslim leaders). As one of my standing points is exactly about Hamas leadership bearing responsibility for such and that it ought to be held accountable, the criticism direct my way isn't very compelling. Not seeking, nor need your approval.

 

As for your hyperbole nonsense about the impossibility of reasoning with the Palestinians (and bringing up the Holocaust for good measure, no less), again - try and pay attention to what I actually post, not what you imagine my posts are about.

 

[Morch]

39 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

You present your assumptions as fact. Your assumptions are based upon claims made by the  attacking group. Here are some facts that you cannot deny because they are the truth.

Fact: The woman was part of a group attempting to violently enter Israel.

Fact: There is no supporting information to support that she was actually shot by the IDF. NONE. There are claims that the IDF did it. No autopsy, no  photographic evidence, and my how the Pallywood  producers love their recordings. How odd that we don't have anything of this  nightingale of peace's  martyrdom. The attackers have been posting all sorts of videos to  their jihadi websites, but somehow they forgot this one.

She could have just as easily been shot by her own people as has been the case in previous deaths. She could have been hit by a ricochet, but no, you know that  an IDF  sniper targeted her, all because  it fits your narrative of demonization of Israelis.

Fact: The status of the IDF   carrying weapons or wearing some body armor means nothing. In Afghanistan, my colleagues LAV was destroyed by a woman with an explosives vest. The shrapnel left several seriously injured.  Armed IDF soldiers have been stabbed and shot by arab attackers. You expect the IDF kids to put their lives at risk to ensure that the people trying to kill them are not injured. Get real. It's a combat zone and the  Gazans are attacking.

Fact: The IDF is under no moral or legal obligation to show restraint when faced with a violent attack. They are allowed to stop a border incursion.

Fact: The woman was  part of an attacking force. That made her an attacker, no matter her intentions. The attackers were not going to enter Israel and give loving hugs and spread good cheer. their sole goal was to enter Israel and to harm Israelis.

 

 

 

 

While agreeing with your criticism of the usual suspect's presentation, it ought to be pointed out that you dabble in the same. A whole lot of assumptions based on very little substance.

 

I also think you have a rather foggy concept of ROE, and what's allowed or legitimate to do under relevant  circumstances. If it's a clue, there are already IDF investigations conducted into the details of some deaths, including the one in the OP.

 

No idea if her death was intended or accidental, but somehow doubt that it was a crucial part of the effort to avoid a mass breaching of the border fence.

 

Not too clear as to why you imagine IDF soldiers never make mistakes, or never act wrongly. They are human. Accepting that in no way implies all the IDF does is wrong, or that anything the Palestinians do is right.

[dexterm]

8 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

You present your assumptions as fact. Your assumptions are based upon claims made by the  attacking group. Here are some facts that you cannot deny because they are the truth.

Fact: The woman was part of a group attempting to violently enter Israel.

Fact: There is no supporting information to support that she was actually shot by the IDF. NONE. There are claims that the IDF did it. No autopsy, no  photographic evidence, and my how the Pallywood  producers love their recordings. How odd that we don't have anything of this  nightingale of peace's  martyrdom. The attackers have been posting all sorts of videos to  their jihadi websites, but somehow they forgot this one.

She could have just as easily been shot by her own people as has been the case in previous deaths. She could have been hit by a ricochet, but no, you know that  an IDF  sniper targeted her, all because  it fits your narrative of demonization of Israelis.

Fact: The status of the IDF   carrying weapons or wearing some body armor means nothing. In Afghanistan, my colleagues LAV was destroyed by a woman with an explosives vest. The shrapnel left several seriously injured.  Armed IDF soldiers have been stabbed and shot by arab attackers. You expect the IDF kids to put their lives at risk to ensure that the people trying to kill them are not injured. Get real. It's a combat zone and the  Gazans are attacking.

Fact: The IDF is under no moral or legal obligation to show restraint when faced with a violent attack. They are allowed to stop a border incursion.

Fact: The woman was  part of an attacking force. That made her an attacker, no matter her intentions. The attackers were not going to enter Israel and give loving hugs and spread good cheer. their sole goal was to enter Israel and to harm Israelis.

 

 

 

Your post shows a complete callous  dehumanizing of the Palestinian victims with a total lack of empathy for people's suffering. It also demonstrates how Israeli apologists think, and why Israel is losing friends and any sympathy it ever had in the world.