Denied entry Immigration Act 2, 12 (2)

[JBBKK]

I was recently denied entry at Don Muang on arrival due to too many in/outs (can't argue with that, I have a lot). However, I was prepared with all the necessary documents, bookings and funds (30,000 baht). I was entering on a 30 day visa waiver, UK passport. 

I asked what law was going to be used to used to justify the denial and it seemed to upset them. They persisted in telling me that it was because I was abusing the tourist visas and spending too long in the country. When I admitted that was true that I was spending a long time in Thailand but pointed out that I had never overstayed, wasn't working and had all necessary documents, they persisted that there was no way I would be allowed to enter.

I realised it was unlikely I could persuade them so focussed on asking what law would be used to deport me,. The officer seemed to want me to agree to being denied under Act 2, 12 (2): Having no appropriate means of living following entrance into the Kingdom ("it's better for you, this is the soft way...na...na...na..."). I felt uncomfortable with that because I had showed her my cash and felt things should be done in an appropriate manner. She got upset and threatened me with a "worse" way, then passed me higher up the chain. 

I spent a tense period in a more senior immigration room, filled with officers, and going around in circles with them about what law would be used to deny my entry. They kept saying "too many entries" and I kept saying "yes, but what reason will be stamped on my passport?". Long story short, I was deported with Act 2, 12 (2): "Having no appropriate means of living following entrance into the Kingdom" stamped on my passport (in Thai). 

Although I wasn't exactly their favourite person (they complained I was stubborn, mai narak and at times got quite angry with me), they said I should apply for another visa outside, preferably an Non-imm 'O' or maybe even a 60 day tourist visa (anything except the 30 day visa waiver, they really seem to dislike that). 

I just wanted to share this story in case it's a new precedent. I'm also wondering if I should try for:

1) a marriage visa (would need to get married first, but an planning on doing so anyway)
2) a student visa (I'm happy to genuinely study Thai full time in the mornings, my Thai is already fairly decent and I'm serious about learning)
3) chance my luck with a 60 day tourist visa
4) take a break from Thailand completely for a few months before trying 1), 2) or 3) 
5) start panicking because I might have some kind of red mark against my name 

I know it's hard to say, but any advice or opinions would be welcome. 

Thanks guys! 

[BritTim]

This confirms what has been clear for a while. If you are entering visa exempt, using this as a means to stay extended periods in the country, some immigration officials will object. Pursuant to instructions they were given around the middle of 2014, they have a lot of discretion in whether or not to admit you.

 

By the way, with an official denial under section 12 (2) (which they might have allowed you to avoid by leaving voluntarily without forcing an official denial) you should be armed with more than just the 20,000 baht cash (which satisfies Section 12 (9)) to show you have adequate resources for your extended stay. Bank statements showing transfers into Thailand would be a good example. This applies when entering with the tourist visa which you should invariably use when entering by air in the future.

[JBBKK]

Thanks Tim.

I wasn't aware that you might be asked for anything more than the 20,000 cash on entry. I knew that some visa types ask for bank statements, etc (as usual, this seems rather arbitrarily enforced at the various consulates). 

 

Would it have been possible to leave voluntarily? How would that even work? You would need to get a flight and then wait for that flight's departure time...where would you wait? I saw on an older thread that at land borders you might just be able to simply turn around and go back again, but at the airports it all seems so rigid that I can't see how it could be done other than putting you in a  holding cell until your flight is due. 

I kept hearing NLP (no landing permission, I think) being uttered. I'm wondering if this is something other than a 'denial of entry' or if it's the same thing. It was certainly an awful experience because I was sent back to where I came from (not a place I particularly wanted to go), then once I was there, that country's immigration apologised and said they were obligated to send me back to my home country). All the while, I was kept under supervision and escorted by security, which made me feel like a criminal. I'm just wondering if this is standard or if it was my "punishment" (she said 'easy way' versus 'hard way') for being somewhat awkward with the Thai officers. Or perhaps I would have ended up with that same ordeal no matter what? 

 

[JBBKK]

I suppose if such a thing as a blacklist exists, then they use Section 16? 

With anything under Section 12 then you might not easily get a Visa or be allowed to enter but aren't banned in any way...that's what I'm hoping at least ? 

[observer90210]

Report the issue to the media once back home and make sure they make an uproar all over. Thailand does not like loosing face.

[sanemax]

28 minutes ago, observer90210 said:

Report the issue to the media once back home and make sure they make an uproar all over. Thailand does not like loosing face.

The media back home will not be interested .

Getting denied entry into a Country is not a news story

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, JBBKK said:

I wasn't aware that you might be asked for anything more than the 20,000 cash on entry

You are not alone. Even those who read Section 12 of the Immigration Act can easily miss the fact that Section 12 (2) and Section 12 (9) are distinct reasons why you can be denied entry. While the criteria used for Section 12 (9) are clear cut, Section 12 (2) is up to the judgment of the immigration official.

 

1 hour ago, JBBKK said:

Would it have been possible to leave voluntarily? How would that even work?

A few years ago, it was always true that denied entry at airports was done officially. At that time, they were not as common. There have been recent reports where, partly as a favor to travelers and partly to save themselves work, they will sometimes just tell the airline to return you on the next flight without formal processing. I have never been through this personally, so I am not clear on all the exact details.

 

2 hours ago, JBBKK said:

I kept hearing NLP (no landing permission, I think) being uttered.

I am not familiar with NLP, but it sounds similar to DNB (do not board) an instruction sent to the airline by immigration to deny check in to passengers who would be denied entry (usually because you are on a blacklist). It is part of the Advance Passenger Information System which transmits passenger information to (among others) Thai immigration before a flight.

[JBBKK]

Thanks again, Tim. Very interesting. 

 

[Maestro]

Removed a troll post and the reply to it.

[darrendsd]

9 hours ago, JBBKK said:

Would it have been possible to leave voluntarily? How would that even work? You would need to get a flight and then wait for that flight's departure time...where would you wait?

Yes you could have left voluntarily, they keep you in a detention room until your flight is ready

 

A friend of mine was denied around 2 years ago on a Visa Exempt, he flew to Vientiane, got a Tourist Visa and returned 3 days later via the same Airport with no issues, his was not a official denial, he did not get a stamp in his PP

 

I really don't blame you for asking them what law you were being denied under etc however by doing this you have created problems for yourself, Thai Officials don't like being questioned as you have just found out

 

As you now have the official denial stamp get ready for more questioning next time you enter, do not under any circumstances try to enter on a Visa Exempt

 

 

 

 

[JackThompson]

By using Section 12 (2), they would not have to consider any financial proof you might provide - so no one should think having bank-statements would work.  They might work - but when entering Visa Exempt, you don't have much leverage.

 

17 hours ago, JBBKK said:

4) take a break from Thailand completely for a few months before trying 1), 2) or 3) 

Some have been questioned and/or denied-entry even after having been gone for months, when attempting entry at Thai airports.  When entering as a Tourist, Immigration looks at your history, and if they see you stayed for extended periods a year ago, they may deny entry.  Sometimes they make up rules about "so many days in a year" - but when that won't work, they may just make up something else.   But, generally, your odds are much better with a TR-Visa than entering Visa-Exempt, in part due to a ministerial order which specifically applies to Visa-Exempt entries.

 

I stayed in Thailand as a Tourist for longer-periods for awhile, and stopped using airports to enter at all - even with a Tourist Visa - due to it being, essentially, a lottery whether you are allowed in or not, if they see a longer history / longer stays in your past.  

There is never a problem entering with a Tourist Visa at a Land Border - with the exception of Poipet/Aranyaprathet - if you have 20K Baht or more.  If coming from afar, flying to Penang, entering by land at Pedang Besar, then flying out of Hat Yai domestic (no Immigration involved in the flight), is a good option. 

[lkv]

OP. I had a quick look and I have noticed 10 posts is your whole contribution on ThaiVisa.

 

They all relate to two threads. This one and another one from August 2017.

 

You were telling us that you have many tourist visas extended etc at that time.

 

You were asking us the exact same questions, whether you should get ED visas etc. Exactly the same story we heard in August 2017, that you got stopped at Don Mueang and encountered problems. With the difference that now you tell us you got denied entry.

 

Back then you told us:

 

"I was given the normal 30 day stamp but the officer made it clear that the information they had on the computer wasn't looking good for me and I shouldn't try to get in again as a tourist. She advised we get married so that I could get a marriage visa, which is easy for her to say but not quite the right time for us to take that step. The student visa seemed a better option, at least for the time being."

 

Now I don't know what to make of this.

 

Maybe you can clarify it for us.

[jackdd]

25 minutes ago, lkv said:

...

Obviously he didn't listen to the warning and just continued with tourist visas / exempts and now got denied while trying to come into Thailand on a Visa exempt, what does he have to clarify?

[lkv]

 

6 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Obviously he didn't listen to the warning and just continued with tourist visas / exempts and now got denied while trying to come into Thailand on a Visa exempt, what does he have to clarify?

Aha.

 

So he "exceeded" his visa exempt "limit" last year -more than 6-, been warned, and now he is trying it again, if we were to try to make sense of the story.

 

Sorry man, there is something really dodgy in my opinion, I'll just leave it at that.

 

 

[jackdd]

3 minutes ago, lkv said:

 

Aha.

 

So he exceeded his visa exempt limit last year, been warned, and now he is trying it again, if we were to try to make sense of the story.

 

 

Yes, this is what most likely happened

But there is no Visa exempt limit (except the limit of 2 exempts at land borders), so probably just an IO who wanted to demonstrate his power

[lkv]

Just now, jackdd said:

Yes, this is what most likely happened

But there is no Visa exempt limit (except the limit of 2 exempts at land borders), so probably just an IO who wanted to demonstrate his power

I know, I edited the previous post, I was referring to the 6 VE warning.

[mvdf]

Mind-boggling to see threads like this where foreigners struggle to understand and accept that admission to a country other than their own is not a right. It is a privilege. Immigration officers of this country have every RIGHT to exercise their discretion in matters pertaining to admissibility of foreigners. 

 

And the audacity to question them on the law governing the denial of aliens deemed inadmissible. 

 

Assuming an idealist viewpoint here, if you prefer to be admitted sans questions and issues, urge your governments to reciprocate the issue. Thais should therefore be admitted to the US, Australia, Canada, UK, Schengen states etc without encountering any barriers and difficulties. 

 

A bona fide tourist will not have many ins/outs passport entries. Granted some westerners might have sufficient financial resources to survive a lifetime in Thailand without ever working, tourists do not have a right to misuse or abuse the visa on arrival privilege. If you have the money, apply for the appropriate visa for long term residence. Stop denigrating this country's immigration frontline officers. They are doing their job and they are doing it within the prerogative granted them by Thailand's laws!

 

[JBBKK]

Yes, Jackdd is pretty much right. I did take the warning seriously at that time but when I left again, I tried my luck applying for a 60 day tourist visa and was given it with no questions asked. After 60 days, I went to Chaeng Wattana and was given a 30 day extension, again with no questions asked. I was aware I was pushing my luck but thought that as long as I wasn't overstaying and was carrying the correct documents (outbound flight, proof of accommodation, funds), then I wouldn't have any problem on re-entry. As Jackdd said, there is no specified limit, but I've now found out that  "too many in/outs" is open to the interpretation of the Immigration Officer. 

 

I don't use thaivisa frequently but have received good advice from some members on the two occasions that I've reached out for information about visas, which I'm very grateful for. I also thought sharing my experiences might help other members. 

So, nothing dodgy going on I'm afraid. I'd just like to use Thailand as a base for a while due to my partner being there and am trying to figure out a legal way of doing so that best suits my circumstances.   

[lkv]

8 minutes ago, JBBKK said:

So, nothing dodgy going on I'm afraid. I'd just like to use Thailand as a base for a while due to my partner being there and am trying to figure out a legal way of doing so that best suits my circumstances.   

All right, thanks for sharing your story. The moral is, next time when one is being warned by an Immigration officer that he had too many visa exempt entries, that person should use tourist visas and don't push his luck.

 

Until then, people are advised to carry on as usual, mixing VE entries with SETVs or METVs.

[phoetriu2]

Tread very careful with DMK. They will say you have overstayed with 180 days and you need to respect Thai law. If this fails, then they bring up Return flight, or money, or time to go home. There must be some sort of Denials per day especially based on in/out with certain foreigners. Seems even without overstaying or having any record and having proper docs, can still land you with a denial actually. 

[JBBKK]

8 minutes ago, lkv said:

All right, thanks for sharing your story. The moral is, next time when one is being warned by an Immigration officer that he had too many visa exempt entries, that person should use tourist visas and don't push his luck.

 

Until then, people are advised to carry on as usual, mixing VE entries with SETVs or METVs.

I actually had way more SETV stamps than VE stamps. I was aware that they didn't like the VE stamps and was trying hard to keep them happy by doing things in as correct a way as possible. 

If there is a moral to the story, then I'd say it's simply that they want a tourist to be a tourist. No matter what mix of VE, SETV or METV stamps you have, if you are spending more time in the country than you are outside it, then you're risking a denial of entry at some point. You'll get away with it for longer in Thailand than possibly any other country in the world, but at some point you'll get the wrong Immigration Officer on the wrong day and get yourself in trouble. 

I'd advise people to not to try to game the system, which is what I guess I was doing. 

[JBBKK]

4 minutes ago, phoetriu2 said:

Tread very careful with DMK. They will say you have overstayed with 180 days and you need to respect Thai law. If this fails, then they bring up Return flight, or money, or time to go home. There must be some sort of Denials per day especially based on in/out with certain foreigners. Seems even without overstaying or having any record and having proper docs, can still land you with a denial actually. 

Yes, I've only had issues twice and each time has been at DMK. 

 

[lkv]

1 minute ago, JBBKK said:

I'd advise people to not to try to game the system, which is what I guess I was doing. 

That's one interpretation. Other reports suggest IO's are telling people: "no more free for you, you pay next time for visa". 

[JBBKK]

1 minute ago, lkv said:

That's one interpretation. Other reports suggest IO's are telling people: "no more free for you, you pay next time for visa". 

Yes, you could be right about that. One officer kept saying I was trying to get "free visa", which annoyed me because it wasn't about the money at all. I've only ever entered on a VE when I plan to stay for a shorter period (I often have things to take care of outside Thailand). The piece of mind of having the SETV is well worth the money. 

However, other officers seem more concerned about the fact that I was staying for a long time and clearly not a tourist in the normal sense. 

[lkv]

Man, I spent 270 days last year in Thailand on SETVs.

 

And 4 out of 5 months this year.

 

When I get deported, I will let you know.

 

Have a great evening!

[PoorSucker]

They can always use this one. 

[JBBKK]

34 minutes ago, PoorSucker said:

They can always use this one. 

Haha! Is that a sign currently in use somewhere? 

 

[flyingtlger]

It seems like the majority of immigration officers (as well as police officers) have big egos and are on power trips and if you stroke them the wrong way they can make life very difficult for you.  Just smile, be polite and cooperative...more often than not you won't have problems.

 

[PoorSucker]

29 minutes ago, JBBKK said:

Haha! Is that a sign currently in use somewhere? 

 

Not seen the sign for long time, but the ministerial order is still not revoked.  so get a hair cut before next entry. 

[MiWV]

On 6/2/2018 at 1:29 PM, observer90210 said:

Report the issue to the media once back home and make sure they make an uproar all over. Thailand does not like loosing face.

Why do people think it's their right to do whatever they want regardless of laws in foreign countries? You well know thigs like this are significantly more strict "back home"