Guesthouse Crackdown

[bkk6060]

4 minutes ago, BestB said:

20 out of 800?

You have no clue.

Not every condo in Pattaya was on Airbnb...

But all the Airbnb condos are in fact on these sites.

Same same.

20, 50, 100's maybe I just did a one minute check of the site.

Enforcing anything against Airbnb does nothing.

Waste of time.

But, believe what you want.

[BestB]

15 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

You have no clue.

Not every condo in Pattaya was on Airbnb...

But all the Airbnb condos are in fact on these sites.

Same same.

20, 50, 100's maybe I just did a one minute check of the site.

Enforcing anything against Airbnb does nothing.

Waste of time.

But, believe what you want.

Of course I do not and you do, after all you found 20 condo’s on booking out of 800 listings so your theory is proven , sealed and delivered. ?

[DrTuner]

59 minutes ago, BestB said:

I can not help but wonder what your feelings would have been of you were financially  affected by a decline or lack of “ invasion “?

I'd be screaming bloody murder, but luckily I went with the age old wisdom of not investing more in Thailand than you're willing to loose. It's a playground, not a target for long term investment. I have zero symphathy for flippers or illegal hotel runners. Hang 'em high!

[BestB]

3 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

I'd be screaming bloody murder, but luckily I went with the age old wisdom of not investing more in Thailand than you're willing to loose. It's a playground, not a target for long term investment. I have zero symphathy for flippers or illegal hotel runners. Hang 'em high!

So since you have so little to say about Thailand , why are you here? Was there no other cheaper destination? 

[DrTuner]

2 minutes ago, BestB said:

So since you have so little to say about Thailand , why are you here? Was there no other cheaper destination? 

Check the usual 'go home if you don't like it' threads here. That bone has been gnawed to the last bit.

[BestB]

19 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

Check the usual 'go home if you don't like it' threads here. That bone has been gnawed to the last bit.

I did not say go home, I asked why you were here when you had such a low opinion. Simple question requiring simple answer, after all you felt you are in position to hang them high crowd 

[DrTuner]

4 minutes ago, BestB said:

I did not say go home, I asked why you were here when you had such a low opinion. Simple question requiring simple answer, after all you felt you are in position to hang them high crowd 

Well if you'd formulated your question as why I don't like flippers or illegal hotel owners (many if not most of which are not Thai but Chinese and other assorted foreigners), you might have gotten an answer.

 

I don't like opportunistic hustlers vying for a quick profit at the expense of sabai sabai for the residents. But as I'm a softie, I'll accept guilliotine instead of the noose. Just get rid of them.

[BestB]

9 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

Well if you'd formulated your question as why I don't like flippers or illegal hotel owners (many if not most of which are not Thai but Chinese and other assorted foreigners), you might have gotten an answer.

 

I don't like opportunistic hustlers vying for a quick profit at the expense of sabai sabai for the residents. But as I'm a softie, I'll accept guilliotine instead of the noose. Just get rid of them.

You see it’s funny, but hotel owners I have met in court and jail were Thai . 

 

So I guess there goes your theory straight out the window 

[DrTuner]

5 minutes ago, BestB said:

You see it’s funny, but hotel owners I have met in court and jail were Thai . 

 

So I guess there goes your theory straight out the window 

Interesting company you keep. Now, it might be a tad difficult to meet the others, as their Hong Kong shell companies aren't that likely to give a toss about Thai BiB, especially as long as the brown letters keep flowing.

 

Farangs as usual might get the short end of the stick - good riddance. Did they really think a "guaranteed ROI" on a crappy condo in Pattaya was legit?

[BestB]

6 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

Interesting company you keep. Now, it might be a tad difficult to meet the others, as their Hong Kong shell companies aren't that likely to give a toss about Thai BiB, especially as long as the brown letters keep flowing.

 

Farangs as usual might get the short end of the stick - good riddance. Did they really think a "guaranteed ROI" on a crappy condo in Pattaya was legit?

And once again your theories just do not add up when most owners are Thai and foreigner myself got fined the least amount .

 

now I realize it’s self assuring to post rubbish lie who the owners are, but I have met a large number in person and despite your armchAir knowledge all were Thai 

 

do you think it time to rethink your theories ?

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎6‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 5:45 PM, BestB said:

You right no they will not , only it’s 33 million not 20 million and  vast majority arrive in high season , hotels are full.

 

now remove 50% of the hotels and where do you think tourists will be staying ?

If they can't get an hotel on line they probably won't arrive in LOS looking for a place. They'll go to another country. LOS isn't the only country with beaches and hotels. Mainly young people arrive without a place booked, and they'll get the message on social media if there are no places to stay. Burma is probably looking to cash in on this.

[sam neuts]

I don't know if I am allowed to post any links but here is one that may clear up the AirBnB part.

 

Please feel free to remove it if it is not allowed and readers will have to message me.

 

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/featured/2018/06/24/thai-law-case-closed-on-airbnb-heres-why-it-wont-matter/

[swissie]

5 hours ago, sam neuts said:

I don't know if I am allowed to post any links but here is one that may clear up the AirBnB part.

 

Please feel free to remove it if it is not allowed and readers will have to message me.

 

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/featured/2018/06/24/thai-law-case-closed-on-airbnb-heres-why-it-wont-matter/

Taking up the subjet of what is allowed to post:

- Would it violate Forum-rules, if Guest Houses/Hotels that ACTUALLY have been closed down, would be NAMED on TVF?
Not the ones that only have a sighn in front (closed), but the ones that actually have turned down potential guests.

If allowed, this would be practical/hands-on advice. Comments, claiming that "many" establishements have closed down is of no help when it comes to concrete "holiday planning".
Cheers.

[BestB]

1 minute ago, swissie said:

Taking up the subjet of what is allowed to post:

- Would it violate Forum-rules, if Guest Houses/Hotels that ACTUALLY have been closed down, would be NAMED on TVF?
Not the ones that only have a sighn in front (closed), but the ones that actually have turned down potential guests.

If allowed, this would be practical/hands-on advice. Comments, claiming that "many" establishements have closed down is of no help when it comes to concrete "holiday planning".
Cheers.

Do not know about the rules, but i do not think it would be useful at all

 

In many cases, many will be closed for few days but then reopen without the "open" sign

 

Lets put it this way, if you book through OTA and when you show up hotel is closed, OTA will relocate you to another, but naturally some hassle involved

 

But in the current situation, choices are very limited as ones that have been raided, may have closed but reopened as i mentioned and some that have not been raided, may still get raided in the future.

 

If you want to be 100% certain, then 5 star, international chains is your only option.

[sam neuts]

Do not know about the rules, but i do not think it would be useful at all
 
In many cases, many will be closed for few days but then reopen without the "open" sign
 
Lets put it this way, if you book through OTA and when you show up hotel is closed, OTA will relocate you to another, but naturally some hassle involved
 
But in the current situation, choices are very limited as ones that have been raided, may have closed but reopened as i mentioned and some that have not been raided, may still get raided in the future.
 
If you want to be 100% certain, then 5 star, international chains is your only option.

I think many will think twice before re-opening if they have been closed after an inspection.

If you re-open they can apply for a court order after 20 days and you would then be subject to very very high fines. Especially if you had already appeared in court for the same offence.

Many hosts will continue providing illegal accommodation, and gradually those numbers will reduce over the years.

We still have over 3 years to go before the government even expects to establish full comlpiance.

Hopefully they will just look at the law and realise that different licences are required for different accommodation types.


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[BestB]

1 minute ago, sam neuts said:

I think many will think twice before re-opening if they have been closed after an inspection.

If you re-open they can apply for a court order after 20 days and you would then be subject to very very high fines. Especially if you had already appeared in court for the same offence.

Many hosts will continue providing illegal accommodation, and gradually those numbers will reduce over the years.

We still have over 3 years to go before the government even expects to establish full comlpiance.

Hopefully they will just look at the law and realise that different licences are required for different accommodation types.


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But you missing crucial point, No one is actually given an order to close down.

 

Raided places are not suppose to sell daily any longer, but can stay perfectly open providing monthly rentals.

 

Thats true, they can return, BUT consider that catching new fish is more important than the old one AND now that have been raided, it would be much harder for them to show proof of daily rentals, when most businesses took down daily rental signs and prices.

[sam neuts]

But you missing crucial point, No one is actually given an order to close down.
 
Raided places are not suppose to sell daily any longer, but can stay perfectly open providing monthly rentals.
 
Thats true, they can return, BUT consider that catching new fish is more important than the old one AND now that have been raided, it would be much harder for them to show proof of daily rentals, when most businesses took down daily rental signs and prices.

Surely that is what the amendment is about.

It tells you what you need to do if you want to continue daily rentals.

The Hotel Act itself has a list of infringements and associated penalties.

If you cant do daily rentals legally and advertise/market promote your business, its not a short term accommodation business. And how will you cope with the evidence of TM30. Or, will that be another offence?

No more advertising on OTA's. No more signs out front. Worried everytime someone books a room.

Why would you want to wake up everyday wondering if you are going to get raided again.

If you are forced into 30 day rentals as a guesthouse, how many guests will you have?

Better not to trade at all if it makes you into a criminal.

For new investors in Thailand. Would you want to rent a property advertised as a guesthouse right now, if it didnt have a Hotel Licence?

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[BestB]

2 minutes ago, sam neuts said:

Surely that is what the amendment is about.

It tells you what you need to do if you want to continue daily rentals.

The Hotel Act itself has a list of infringements and associated penalties.

If you cant do daily rentals legally and advertise/market promote your business, its not a short term accommodation business. And how will you cope with the evidence of TM30. Or, will that be another offence?

No more advertising on OTA's. No more signs out front. Worried everytime someone books a room.

Why would you want to wake up everyday wondering if you are going to get raided again.

If you are forced into 30 day rentals as a guesthouse, how many guests will you have?

Better not to trade at all if it makes you into a criminal.

For new investors in Thailand. Would you want to rent a property advertised as a guesthouse right now, if it didnt have a Hotel Licence?

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All valid points

 

In the end of the day, pretty much most of the places will not be able to comply with the act, especially the smaller places.

 

When your life depends on it, you take risks as there are no other options.

 

Yes closing down is the safest way, but for many if not most small businesses it means loss of all they owned.

 

As for TM30, hotel does not need to notify the length of stay, only arrival day and visa type and dates. How long guest stays is not asked.

 

Is it a risk? yes, but again matter of life and starvation, which one would you chose?

 

 

[sam neuts]

All valid points
 
In the end of the day, pretty much most of the places will not be able to comply with the act, especially the smaller places.
 
When your life depends on it, you take risks as there are no other options.
 
Yes closing down is the safest way, but for many if not most small businesses it means loss of all they owned.
 
As for TM30, hotel does not need to notify the length of stay, only arrival day and visa type and dates. How long guest stays is not asked.
 
Is it a risk? yes, but again matter of life and starvation, which one would you chose?
 
 

Taking those risks exposes you to very expensive fines, confiscation of property or maybe even going to prison.

A high risk to take just to earn a living and pay your taxes, staff, rent, overheads. And then they can come back anyday they want.

I guess the choice is down to the individual.





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[sam neuts]

All valid points
 
In the end of the day, pretty much most of the places will not be able to comply with the act, especially the smaller places.
 
When your life depends on it, you take risks as there are no other options.
 
Yes closing down is the safest way, but for many if not most small businesses it means loss of all they owned.
 
As for TM30, hotel does not need to notify the length of stay, only arrival day and visa type and dates. How long guest stays is not asked.
 
Is it a risk? yes, but again matter of life and starvation, which one would you chose?
 
 

Sorry i forgot to answer about the TM30.

What i was suggesting is they have great evidence for the check in date of your guests, and easy to check departure date on a computer. Easy to see how many TM30 you submit each month. If you are prosecuted for an offence it is the prosecutors job to find evidence of your guilt.

Easy to do if you are submitting TM30.

Offence if you are not.

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[BestB]

3 minutes ago, sam neuts said:

Sorry i forgot to answer about the TM30.

What i was suggesting is they have great evidence for the check in date of your guests, and easy to check departure date on a computer. Easy to see how many TM30 you submit each month. If you are prosecuted for an offence it is the prosecutors job to find evidence of your guilt.

Easy to do if you are submitting TM30.

Offence if you are not.

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I do not think TM30 could be used as evidence as departure date only shows when person left the country, it does not prove he/she did not book for a month. Just because they left prior, does not automatically become evidence they booked daily.

 

Just saying

[sam neuts]

I do not think TM30 could be used as evidence as departure date only shows when person left the country, it does not prove he/she did not book for a month. Just because they left prior, does not automatically become evidence they booked daily.
 
Just saying

Agreed.

It is all these things that concern me though.

So easy to follow a trail if they want, and with fines that can be into millions (if they want) It exposes you to all sorts of potential problems.

You would have to submit unlawful tax returns. You would have to destroy evidence of bookings.

Easier to close by choice for daily bookings rather than run a business like that.

Look into support groups so that you have a strong enough members group to have enough power to be able to suggest changes required.

Or

Look into an alternative method of operating your business and earn enough revenue from 12 bookings for each room per year. This is possible and practical but again it needs enough members to work.

Time will tell.


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[BestB]

2 minutes ago, sam neuts said:

Agreed.

It is all these things that concern me though.

So easy to follow a trail if they want, and with fines that can be into millions (if they want) It exposes you to all sorts of potential problems.

You would have to submit unlawful tax returns. You would have to destroy evidence of bookings.

Easier to close by choice for daily bookings rather than run a business like that.

Look into support groups so that you have a strong enough members group to have enough power to be able to suggest changes required.

Or

Look into an alternative method of operating your business and earn enough revenue from 12 bookings for each room per year. This is possible and practical but again it needs enough members to work.

Time will tell.


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 At the moment, there seems to be no groups at all and everyone on their own.

 

I can only attribute this to Thai way of doing things.

 

They raid, make noise and then forget

 

Happened with bars, happened with massage parlors, mini vans, taxi's etc

 

I think need time to see and tell how this will turn out.

 

International chains at the moment putting pressure, pressure means money. possibly election donations.

 

Once money runs out or elections are over or new promises made, things may or may not change.

 

In all honesty, for the life of me i can not see Thailand getting through this high season with over 2000 places closed and encountering.

[sam neuts]

 At the moment, there seems to be no groups at all and everyone on their own.
 
I can only attribute this to Thai way of doing things.
 
They raid, make noise and then forget
 
Happened with bars, happened with massage parlors, mini vans, taxi's etc
 
I think need time to see and tell how this will turn out.
 
International chains at the moment putting pressure, pressure means money. possibly election donations.
 
Once money runs out or elections are over or new promises made, things may or may not change.
 
In all honesty, for the life of me i can not see Thailand getting through this high season with over 2000 places closed and encountering.

I am trying to form a group but it takes time for people to think its worth joining, and unfortunately people dont like the fact that i post stuff i find dated back to the amendment.

They only want todays news.

The research i do, gives me info, i post it.

I am a researcher not a reporter.

I havent got time to organise it into date order before i post. Within a few months i will have dug up and posted all the related older posts, and will only need to post new stuff.

Hopefully by then people will realise as a group we may be able to do something.

61,000 listings on airbnb, who just told their hosts they were operating illegaly.

I am also not allowed to promote my website on TVF which is totally free and has lots of info.

I will continue to push forward with my project, as i do have friends that are now either stressed or closed for business, and i can see things could be different if everyone got together.

I do not live in Thailand and therefore do not have to worry about what i say.

There are a number of authorities i have already contacted. TAT, THA, Ministry of Interior, Lawyers and Private Investigators.

We will see what my research turns up.

I want to make it clear that Thailand should have laws and regulations for travellers accommodation.

I am in full agreement with taxes and registration and licences.

Just make it realistic and stop treating paperwork infringement cases, like the offenders are criminals.

Give them a summons.

Fines if failure to comply.

Forced closure if required.

But at least provide them a suitable licence framework and the chance to stay in business legally.

And provide them with INFORMATION.

I have offered cash for photos, videos, stories, hotel licence lists and eventually will compile enough info to be of use to both travelers and hosts.

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[BestB]

1 hour ago, sam neuts said:

I am trying to form a group but it takes time for people to think its worth joining, and unfortunately people dont like the fact that i post stuff i find dated back to the amendment.

They only want todays news.

The research i do, gives me info, i post it.

I am a researcher not a reporter.

I havent got time to organise it into date order before i post. Within a few months i will have dug up and posted all the related older posts, and will only need to post new stuff.

Hopefully by then people will realise as a group we may be able to do something.

61,000 listings on airbnb, who just told their hosts they were operating illegaly.

I am also not allowed to promote my website on TVF which is totally free and has lots of info.

I will continue to push forward with my project, as i do have friends that are now either stressed or closed for business, and i can see things could be different if everyone got together.

I do not live in Thailand and therefore do not have to worry about what i say.

There are a number of authorities i have already contacted. TAT, THA, Ministry of Interior, Lawyers and Private Investigators.

We will see what my research turns up.

I want to make it clear that Thailand should have laws and regulations for travellers accommodation.

I am in full agreement with taxes and registration and licences.

Just make it realistic and stop treating paperwork infringement cases, like the offenders are criminals.

Give them a summons.

Fines if failure to comply.

Forced closure if required.

But at least provide them a suitable licence framework and the chance to stay in business legally.

And provide them with INFORMATION.

I have offered cash for photos, videos, stories, hotel licence lists and eventually will compile enough info to be of use to both travelers and hosts.

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All good, i only see one little problem with it, Wrong audience.

 

Thai government never cared and never will what foreigners have to say, unless it was a huge international company and even then it would require millions of dollar to make any kind of change.

 

Thai owners are the ones who should be the target and organised if any change was to ever happen.

 

If all those 3000-4000 hotels that have been raided were to organise, get all their staff to sign a petition, only then someone at the top may take a notice of it.

[blackcab]

3 hours ago, swissie said:

Taking up the subjet of what is allowed to post:

- Would it violate Forum-rules, if Guest Houses/Hotels that ACTUALLY have been closed down, would be NAMED on TVF?
Not the ones that only have a sighn in front (closed), but the ones that actually have turned down potential guests.

If allowed, this would be practical/hands-on advice. Comments, claiming that "many" establishements have closed down is of no help when it comes to concrete "holiday planning".
Cheers.

 

Just because a guest house or hotel has turned down a potential guest, it does not prove they have been closed down by government order.

 

Clearly, we cannot allow unsubstantiated and unverifiable reports of this nature. If a business was to be wrongly named and the business suffered as a result then they might understandably seek legal redress by claiming they have been defamed.

 

If you believe you have absolute proof that a business has been closed down by government order then feel free to send me the proof by PM for my consideration before you post any details. Be aware that I will expect the standard of your proof to be very high indeed.

 

The rules that could be broken are:

 

2. You will not use ThaiVisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, inaccurate, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law.

 

6. You will not post comments that could be reasonably construed as defamation or libel.

Defamation is the issuance of a statement about another person or business which causes that person to suffer harm. It does not have to be false to be defamatory. Libel is when the defamatory statement is published either in a drawing, painting, cinematography, film, picture or letters made visible by any means, or any other recording instruments, recording picture or letters, or by broadcasting or spreading picture, or by propagation by any other means. Defamation is both a civil and criminal charge in Thailand.

[cmsally]

From what I have seen in Chiang Mai it would be difficult to get lists of closures etc. Many guesthouses have a sign up saying closed but are in fact open. I know people who have been served with closure orders and just ignored them , no sign up/ nothing, but then others more cautious hence the signs. There are definitely a few who are closed and waiting it out.

It is a bizarre situation in that a lot of businesses have been forced to in effect defame themselves, by putting up a closed sign at their front entrance. If someone goes away saying that place is closed it is hardly defamation, it is what they read on the sign at the front  (put up by the owner) !! This is an illustration of how bizarre the situation is!

 

The only way that any solution in favour of the small owners will come about , is for them to all get together in a pressure group. There would need to be a lot of them and very focused. I just don't see that happening.

[Pattaya46]

Just for information: I made a long walk yesterday in many random Sois of the South Pattaya area. What I noticed is that many (maybe most) guesthouses and apartments-for-rent buildings have removed (or at least hidden) all references to rent by day or week; they only show monthly rate. 

 

Looks to me just like some "camouflage" to not attract the Police, as for the main ones you can still book for a few days using Booking or Agoda, and I am pretty sure that in many of these guesthouses, if you arrive at the reception with your bag it will be no problem to book just for one week 

 

BTW, I didn't see any guesthouse closed with a police order at the front. I understand that places that have been checked and fined are allow to continue their business, but with 30-days minimum stays.

[sam neuts]

That is correct.

Many will continue like this or they will have no business.

30 day rentals is not very profitable for most.

The OTA's will eventually be forced to comply with Thai law, and hosts will have to submit licence copies for their listings.

It will become more difficult to market/advertise your business and the risk of inspections will increase.

Not a comfortable way to operate a business if you feel under threat of inspection each day.

The amendment of 2016 to the Hotel Act is the big change which will affect many.

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