Guesthouse Crackdown

[sandyf]

On 6/4/2018 at 4:12 PM, VBF said:

That's interesting because I thought it was just booking a condo for less than 30 days that was illegal. 

 

So I ask "Is AirBNB legal as long as the booking is for 30 days or more, and, in the case of a hotel, the premises are licensed?"

Airbnb is not illegal in Thailand or anywhere else. Airbnb has 2 types of client, customers and what they refer to as "hosts", each has their own contract with airbnb. As far as customers are concerned airbnb is not obliged to provide anything other than a refund.

The arrangement between the "host" and airbnb is a different matter altogether and the court ruling was that it was the people that had rented via airbnb that had acted illegally. I am fairly certain that somewhere in the contract that "hosts" would have declared to airbnb that they had conformed with all local laws and regulations. It is almost certain that some owners have used ambiguity to their advantage and it probably needed a court ruling to clarify.

The airbnb setup incorporates a facility for minimum stay and many use it, I have just been in one in Scotland that had a 5 night minimum, many use length of stay to determine the refund conditions. 

[VBF]

3 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Airbnb is not illegal in Thailand or anywhere else. Airbnb has 2 types of client, customers and what they refer to as "hosts", each has their own contract with airbnb. As far as customers are concerned airbnb is not obliged to provide anything other than a refund.

The arrangement between the "host" and airbnb is a different matter altogether and the court ruling was that it was the people that had rented via airbnb that had acted illegally. I am fairly certain that somewhere in the contract that "hosts" would have declared to airbnb that they had conformed with all local laws and regulations. It is almost certain that some owners have used ambiguity to their advantage and it probably needed a court ruling to clarify.

The airbnb setup incorporates a facility for minimum stay and many use it, I have just been in one in Scotland that had a 5 night minimum, many use length of stay to determine the refund conditions. 

Thank you.

Obviously the law in Scotland differs from Thailand, with minimum periods up to the host. 

So if i understand you correctly, if i see a condo for rent in Thailand with minimum rental offered less than 30 days, i can be fairly sure that the host has basically been "economical with the truth"  and should probably avoid it, but any other sort of dwelling would be OK?

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, VBF said:

Thank you.

Obviously the law in Scotland differs from Thailand, with minimum periods up to the host. 

So if i understand you correctly, if i see a condo for rent in Thailand with minimum rental offered less than 30 days, i can be fairly sure that the host has basically been "economical with the truth"  and should probably avoid it, but any other sort of dwelling would be OK?

Scottish law doesn't come into it. Airbnb contracts are determined by the country of residence of the account and they only operate under 3 jurisdictions, USA, Ireland and China.

No, you do not understand me correctly and maybe you can point out where I mentioned condo.

[striderman]

On 6/4/2018 at 11:55 AM, sam neuts said:

You would be surprised at how much of a problem the 2016 amendment to the Hotel Act is going to cause.

Effectively the amendment affects all short term rentals.

Condominiums are also illegal to rent for less than 30 days.

I have just started a FB page as I have had people I know getting raided in South Pattaya a couple of days ago. Thailand Hotel Act Information and My Illegal Hotel.

You can see the 2016 Hotel Act amendment covers ALL buildings. My friends checked with Banglamung District Office and they confirmed.

couple of places i spotted closed with official notices on buakaow the other day...........

 

notice on wall to left of shutter

notice on window to right of NRL

 

below the notice for the translators out there...........

[Peterw42]

21 minutes ago, striderman said:

couple of places i spotted closed with official notices on buakaow the other day...........

notice on wall to left of shutter

Below the notice for the translators out there...........

Quick translation from GF and she said its about the bar being closed because of no bar license, noise, gambling etc. Maybe more related to a bar crackdown.

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, KittenKong said:

People who cant afford the common fees should not have bought a condo in the first place.

Condos are for living in, not for running as a business. I have no sympathy whatsoever for people who dont understand that simple fact.

Anyone who wants to invest in the short-term rental business should buy a hotel or guest-house or apartment building.

Almost all the people that post positively on TVF about BUYING property in LOS seem to be looking at the profit they can make, and not because they want to live in the place. Many boast about how they bought multiple properties.

 

I too have no sympathy for any that sought to profit by other people's discomfort from short term rentals in the buildings they live in, if the current enforcement of existing rules causes them financial disappointment.

 

However, they have to come to an arrangement to allow guesthouses not to have parking spaces when they cater to tourists without vehicles. If they do not, vast numbers of Thais will lose their livelihoods, with all the social disruption that will cause.

[DrTuner]

On 6/4/2018 at 1:52 PM, gandhi said:

What about all these pool villas?

Are they legal to rent out short term?

Hopefully not. Take f.ex. "Pattaya Beverly Hills", ie. Siam Royal View, where Villas going in the 15-25M baht range are being rented out to Chinese. Nothing like dropping over 500k$ on a villa to find out our neighbors are one day mainland Chinese tourists about to have a buffet, rinse and repeat. Peekaboo!

 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Rimmer
video removed

[VBF]

9 hours ago, sandyf said:

Scottish law doesn't come into it. Airbnb contracts are determined by the country of residence of the account and they only operate under 3 jurisdictions, USA, Ireland and China.

No, you do not understand me correctly and maybe you can point out where I mentioned condo.

You do actually say "I am fairly certain that somewhere in the contract that "hosts" would have declared to airbnb that they had conformed with all local laws and regulations. "

So surely if a dwelling is let out in Scotland via Air BnB, Scottish law determines the rules? You didn't mention condo but I thought that condos were treated differently from licenced guesthouses?

 

But this thread talks about what happens when,  if a dwelling is let out in Thailand via Air BnB, Thai law determines the rules - one of those rules is that no condo may be let for short periods of less than 30 days - understandable that Thai law should determine what happens in Thailand.

Regardless, my question (as a customer NOT an owner) concerns whether it is just condos that may not be rented for short terms, whereas other dwellings may. To be honest, I'm none the wiser!

 

Edited June 6, 2018 by VBF

[bkk6060]

3 minutes ago, VBF said:

But this thread talks about what happens when,  if a dwelling is let out in Thailand via Air BnB, Thai law determines the rules - one of those rules is that no condo may be let for short periods of less than 30 days - understandable that Thai law should determine what happens in Thailand.

 

You do actually say "I am fairly certain that somewhere in the contract that "hosts" would have declared to airbnb that they had conformed with all local laws and regulations. "

 

Regardless, my question (as a customer NOT an owner) concerns whether it is just condos that may not be rented for short terms, whereas other dwellings may. To be honest, I'm none the wiser!

 

It is a mute question as condos are in fact being rented ST to 1000's of people ever day.  At least currently the case in Pattaya.

[sam neuts]

On 6/4/2018 at 1:52 PM, gandhi said:

 

What about all these pool villas?

Are they legal to rent out short term?

Yes.

Manyvillas are still operating illegally, and a number have closed or changed to 30 day bookings.

 

There is only one exemption option available to villas if they want to continue offering daily rentals.

 

Most villas that are rented on a daily basis will unfortunately not want to use this option.

 

They are still required to report the property as operational and display the exemption certificate at the villa for inspection.

[digbeth]

The Hotel Act does allow for unlicenced 'homestay' short term rentals for house with no more than 4 rooms, taking less than 20 guests, so the villas might get by under this exception.

 

I've seen some townhouses that converted to backpacker hostels that might also be able to operate under the 4 rooms too.

 

Condo co-owners that rent out short term could argue that if they only had the one unit, that counts as less than 4 room, but recent rulings might seem that they count the whole building

[sam neuts]

1 hour ago, digbeth said:

The Hotel Act does allow for unlicenced 'homestay' short term rentals for house with no more than 4 rooms, taking less than 20 guests, so the villas might get by under this exception.

 

I've seen some townhouses that converted to backpacker hostels that might also be able to operate under the 4 rooms too.

 

Condo co-owners that rent out short term could argue that if they only had the one unit, that counts as less than 4 room, but recent rulings might seem that they count the whole building

Unfortunately that changed with the 2016 amendment.

Now Type: 1 building

 

2 floors maximum and under 10 rooms applies to ALL buildings.

[sam neuts]

16 hours ago, VBF said:

Thank you.

Obviously the law in Scotland differs from Thailand, with minimum periods up to the host. 

So if i understand you correctly, if i see a condo for rent in Thailand with minimum rental offered less than 30 days, i can be fairly sure that the host has basically been "economical with the truth"  and should probably avoid it, but any other sort of dwelling would be OK?

Only Hotels with a licence, or properties exempt are allowed to rent rooms daily or weekly.

 

A licence or certificate of exemption must be clearly displayed at the entrance or reception of the building.

 

Unfortunately with only around 300 hotels in Pattaya with a licence and 7 million visitors it will be difficult.

 

Hua Hin has tourist numbers of 3.5 million and less than 200 hotels with a licence.

[sandyf]

12 hours ago, VBF said:

You do actually say "I am fairly certain that somewhere in the contract that "hosts" would have declared to airbnb that they had conformed with all local laws and regulations. "

So surely if a dwelling is let out in Scotland via Air BnB, Scottish law determines the rules? You didn't mention condo but I thought that condos were treated differently from licenced guesthouses?

 

But this thread talks about what happens when,  if a dwelling is let out in Thailand via Air BnB, Thai law determines the rules - one of those rules is that no condo may be let for short periods of less than 30 days - understandable that Thai law should determine what happens in Thailand.

Regardless, my question (as a customer NOT an owner) concerns whether it is just condos that may not be rented for short terms, whereas other dwellings may. To be honest, I'm none the wiser!

 

My comment was in response to a question regarding airbnb which you decided to take in a different direction.

Many fail to realise that airbnb as far as Thailand is concerned is a foreign company operating out of Dublin under Irish law. The only legal issue is people contravening Thai law, nothing to do with airbnb as they have no operation in Thailand.

[poanoi]

18 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

However, they have to come to an arrangement to allow guesthouses not to have parking spaces when they cater to tourists without vehicles. If they do not, vast numbers of Thais will lose their livelihoods, with all the social disruption that will cause.

disagree, pattaya is too smacked with cars,

theres no room to drive and theres no room to park,

they can rent out parking slots if they temporarily got one to spare

[sam neuts]

6 hours ago, sandyf said:

My comment was in response to a question regarding airbnb which you decided to take in a different direction.

Many fail to realise that airbnb as far as Thailand is concerned is a foreign company operating out of Dublin under Irish law. The only legal issue is people contravening Thai law, nothing to do with airbnb as they have no operation in Thailand.

Correct. Airbnb are in negotiations with the Thai government as the Thai government thinks that Airbnb should be paying some tax here. As do a number of other multinational internet based companies.

The issue with the Hosts and Travellers is a separate issue.

Many hosts are listing on Airbnb and similar companies.

Unfortunately many of the properties come under the Hotel Act and without a licence are operating illegally.

Many rental properties are also not submitting visitors TM30 to immigrationand not paying income tax.

[champers]

25 minutes ago, sam neuts said:

Correct. Airbnb are in negotiations with the Thai government as the Thai government thinks that Airbnb should be paying some tax here. As do a number of other multinational internet based companies.

The issue with the Hosts and Travellers is a separate issue.

Many hosts are listing on Airbnb and similar companies.

Unfortunately many of the properties come under the Hotel Act and without a licence are operating illegally.

Many rental properties are also not submitting visitors TM30 to immigrationand not paying income tax.

So if the government collects tax from Airbnb are they colluding and benefiting with and from an illegal activity?

[sam neuts]

1 hour ago, champers said:

So if the government collects tax from Airbnb are they colluding and benefiting with and from an illegal activity?

Unfortunately very few people believe the situation even exists.

 

You can pick any OTA and find lots of listings that are illegal under the current legal framework.

 

Everyone can think that this is not happening.

 

Or, it is happening and they aren't going to do anything about it.

 

This is about Billions of Dollars.

 

They will be enforcing the Hotel Act.

 

YES. the government have got themselves into a difficult situation because there are not enough hotels with a licence to accommodate Thailand"s tourist number"s

 

I have LOTS more information and legal facts, documents, research, links and with the connections I have, there are Hundreds of years of experience between us of living and working in Thailand. Both Thai and Foreign friends that help ensure information is as correct as possible in a constantly changing environment.

 

[sandyf]

On 6/7/2018 at 9:50 AM, sam neuts said:

Correct. Airbnb are in negotiations with the Thai government as the Thai government thinks that Airbnb should be paying some tax here. As do a number of other multinational internet based companies.

The issue with the Hosts and Travellers is a separate issue.

Many hosts are listing on Airbnb and similar companies.

Unfortunately many of the properties come under the Hotel Act and without a licence are operating illegally.

Many rental properties are also not submitting visitors TM30 to immigrationand not paying income tax.

I think that any attempt to collect tax would be a non starter. There is no paperwork or accounts that would come under Thai law. The only jurisdiction the Thai government has is over the properties in Thailand.

 

You only have to look at the facebook saga to see how difficult it is to get internet companies to change their ways.

[sandyf]

On 6/6/2018 at 2:08 PM, VBF said:

Regardless, my question (as a customer NOT an owner) concerns whether it is just condos that may not be rented for short terms, whereas other dwellings may. To be honest, I'm none the wiser!

 

I came across this.

 

Step 1: What is a hotel? An application is only needed if the venture qualifies as a hotel under the regulatory framework. A hotel business is defined under the law as

• the offering of accommodation to the public for a duration below a month
• in exchange for payment,
• either with the capacity of more than four rooms in total or more than twenty guests.

In case of  AirBnB‘d condo units, recent court decisions indicate that the whole condo development it relevant for the fulfillment of the last prerequisite, not just the unit that is rented. 

Under a ministerial regulation, hotels are classified as follows:

• Type 1: hotels providing accommodation only, the number of rooms does not exceed fifty, the size of each room is not less than eight square meters,
• Type 2: hotels providing accommodation and catering or restaurant services, the size of each room is not less than eight square meters,
• Type 3: hotels giving accommodation, catering or restaurant services, the size of each room is not less than 14 square meters, and which has either conference rooms or entertainment venues which under the Place of Service Act could be a place for dancing, bars, and nightclubs or spa,
• Type 4: hotels providing accommodation, catering or restaurant services, conference rooms, and entertainment venues, the size of each room is not less than 14 square meters.

For Type 3 and 4 hotels, no entertainment venues will be allowed unless these hotels have more than 80 rooms, are located in entertainment areas, or serve food, alcohol or entertainment only, and have opening hours after midnight.

https://pugnatorius.com/hotel-license/

[BestB]

On 6/7/2018 at 12:14 PM, sam neuts said:

Unfortunately very few people believe the situation even exists.

 

You can pick any OTA and find lots of listings that are illegal under the current legal framework.

 

Everyone can think that this is not happening.

 

Or, it is happening and they aren't going to do anything about it.

 

This is about Billions of Dollars.

 

They will be enforcing the Hotel Act.

 

YES. the government have got themselves into a difficult situation because there are not enough hotels with a licence to accommodate Thailand"s tourist number"s

 

I have LOTS more information and legal facts, documents, research, links and with the connections I have, there are Hundreds of years of experience between us of living and working in Thailand. Both Thai and Foreign friends that help ensure information is as correct as possible in a constantly changing environment.

 

 

Very correct, Being one of the big criminals with incorrect license, i found all local authorities did not really want to enforce it and really not only did not know what to say but do not know what to say for the future.

 

Orders came from BKK, so must be followed, So what is going to happen in 3 months when high season hits and 20 or so million tourists arrive, where will they all be staying?

 

Would appear , did not think things through and the domino effect it will create.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 3:37 AM, poanoi said:

disagree, pattaya is too smacked with cars,

theres no room to drive and theres no room to park,

they can rent out parking slots if they temporarily got one to spare

I'm guessing, but you didn't understand what I wrote.

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, BestB said:

So what is going to happen in 3 months when high season hits and 20 or so million tourists arrive, where will they all be staying?

20 million tourists will not all arrive at the same time, and the majority will be on package tours, or with prebookings at hotels that are open. Not many will be just turning up and looking on arrival. Those may be having a problem.

[BestB]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

20 million tourists will not all arrive at the same time, and the majority will be on package tours, or with prebookings at hotels that are open. Not many will be just turning up and looking on arrival. Those may be having a problem.

You right no they will not , only it’s 33 million not 20 million and  vast majority arrive in high season , hotels are full.

 

now remove 50% of the hotels and where do you think tourists will be staying ?

[DrTuner]

4 minutes ago, BestB said:

 

now remove 50% of the hotels and where do you think tourists will be staying ?

I live in hope they'd stay at home. Thailand is equipped to handle maybe 1/8th of the current invasion force.

[BestB]

1 minute ago, DrTuner said:

I live in hope they'd stay at home. Thailand is equipped to handle maybe 1/8th of the current invasion force.

I can not help but wonder what your feelings would have been of you were financially  affected by a decline or lack of “ invasion “?

[bkk6060]

All this talk about Airbnb is ridiculous and stupid really.

They are one site.  All the others: Booking.com, Agoda, hotels.com, etc, etc. are still advertising, getting bookings and proceeding as normal.

Any "crack down" on Airbnb does absolutely nothing.

Edited June 17, 2018 by bkk6060

[BestB]

6 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

All this talk about Airbnb is ridiculous and stupid really.

They are one site.  All the others: Booking.com, Agoda, hotels.com, etc, etc. are still advertising, getting bookings and proceeding as normal.

Any "crack down" on Airbnb does absolutely nothing.

2 different markets 

air bnb is private condo’s

ota’s is hotels and guesthouses

[bkk6060]

4 minutes ago, BestB said:

2 different markets 

air bnb is private condo’s

ota’s is hotels and guesthouses

100% wrong.

This is what people are not getting.

I checked today there are 20 plus condos on Booking.com in Pattaya for ST rental.

Same on other sites....

[BestB]

2 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

100% wrong.

This is what people are not getting.

I checked today there are 20 plus condos on Booking.com in Pattaya for ST rental.

Same on other sites....

20 out of 800?