Internet Nomad

[Happy Grumpy]

No problem.

 

 

Go to the Thai Revenue Department and get your TIN (Thai Tax Number). There's no need for a Work Permit or anything like that, as many incomes in Thailand don't come under the Thai Worker's Act - Stock Trading, Property rental, remote online teaching etc etc.

 

Enjoy your time here. ?  

[impulse]

9 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

No problem.

 

Go to the Thai Revenue Department and get your TIN (Thai Tax Number). There's no need for a Work Permit or anything like that, as many incomes in Thailand don't come under the Thai Worker's Act - Stock Trading, Property rental, remote online teaching etc etc.

 

Enjoy your time here. 

 

Did anyone else feel the disturbance in the Force when someone suggested doing the right thing because it's the right thing, and not just to get a visa or extension?

 

[timendres]

18 hours ago, impulse said:

I'm gobsmacked by that rule.  Or rather, the current interpretation of that rule.  Basically, as long as someone can show enough in the bank last year to cover this year's incoming money, they NEVER have to pay taxes on the money they make in ANY year.  Forever.   That just doesn't pass the sniff test. 

I believe the thinking is that, if the money was from a previous year, you have already paid tax on it in the country in which it was earned.

[impulse]

6 minutes ago, timendres said:

I believe the thinking is that, if the money was from a previous year, you have already paid tax on it in the country in which it was earned.

  

That's a great point.  And I think that's probably one of the intentions of the law, in addition to coaxing Thai's to repatriate their money after doing a stint overseas.

 

But the discussion we're having here is about digital nomads living and working from Thailand, being paid in another country (where their non-resident and below the radar status often means means they don't pay any taxes), then bringing the money into Thailand to support their lifestyle.  They're working in Thailand, using resources in Thailand, breathing Thailand's air, yet not paying income taxes if they can prove they had more money last year than they're bringing in this year.  That just doesn't pass the sniff test. 

 

I think they're inadvertent beneficiaries of the rule, and likely to be called to account sooner or later.  Like the guys who lived on visa runs and overstays for decades, until the rules were interpreted and enforced differently.  Lots of them were real sad when it no longer worked.  I'm forecasting more of that in the future.  Not hoping for it, mind you.  But forecasting it.

[jossthaifarang]

The short version:

 

Thai Income Tax Law

---

Under section 41 of the Revenue Code an individual Thai citizen or foreigner who lives in Thailand for one or more periods totaling at least 180 days in any tax (calendar) year is, for tax purposes, deemed a resident of Thailand and subject to tax on all assessable income derived from sources within the country, whether paid within or outside Thailand, and on assessable income derived from foreign sources to the extent that it is brought into Thailand in a year in which income is received. A non-resident individual is subject to tax only on assessable income from Thai sources, regardless of payment location.

 

The long version:

 

https://www.thailandlawonline.com/revenue-code/income-tax-law-in-the-revenue-code#ii

 

[BritTim]

44 minutes ago, impulse said:

They're working in Thailand, using resources in Thailand, breathing Thailand's air, yet not paying income taxes ...

I have mixed feelings about this. Taxation ought to be mostly to fund services the government provides on our behalf.

 

At a minimum, foreigners ought to pay in taxes a fair share based on government services they benefit from. Ethically, it might be enough if what you pay in indirect taxes like VAT compensates for the benefits you receive. Foreigners are not generally the beneficiaries of that many government provided services. They use the roads, are protected more than harassed by law enforcement, and benefit from street cleaning. What else? Mostly, they pay for everything else. The government does not need to spend any money to provide the air we breathe while here, and I do not think it reasonable to tax for the use of it.

 

There are certain entitlements that digital nomads do not receive, compared with those with proper work permits and work extensions of stay (admittedly not many). Does that mean digital nomads are not morally obligated to pay any income tax here?

 

There is the point that those most able to pay should help to contribute towards the cost of providing government services to the less fortunate. That inclines me towards the view that high earners ought to contribute through direct taxes (like income tax) as well as indirect taxes (such as VAT). 

[Bastos60]

20 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

It would be a win for Thailand if you paid any tax.

taxes are eventually paid since he spends a small part of the money in Thailand. Anything better than nothing.

[impulse]

37 minutes ago, BritTim said:

I have mixed feelings about this. Taxation ought to be mostly to fund services the government provides on our behalf.

 

At a minimum, foreigners ought to pay in taxes a fair share based on government services they benefit from. Ethically, it might be enough if what you pay in indirect taxes like VAT compensates for the benefits you receive. Foreigners are not generally the beneficiaries of that many government provided services. They use the roads, are protected more than harassed by law enforcement, and benefit from street cleaning. What else? Mostly, they pay for everything else. The government does not need to spend any money to provide the air we breathe while here, and I do not think it reasonable to tax for the use of it.

 

There are certain entitlements that digital nomads do not receive, compared with those with proper work permits and work extensions of stay (admittedly not many). Does that mean digital nomads are not morally obligated to pay any income tax here?

 

There is the point that those most able to pay should help to contribute towards the cost of providing government services to the less fortunate. That inclines me towards the view that high earners ought to contribute through direct taxes (like income tax) as well as indirect taxes (such as VAT). 

 

I'm trying to avoid the moralities, and focus on the practical, but probably doing a poor job of it. 

 

My point about living in Thailand, using Thai resources.... was meant more along the lines that a taxing authority would use to justify a crackdown, but it did come out sounding judgmental.  I'm not as eloquent after spending 18 years in Asia focusing on being understood by ESL friends and co-workers.

 

Thailand already has a pretty good progressive income tax so low wage earners don't pay much, if any.  And there will always be some that pay more than they benefit. 

 

Personally, I'd like to see a system based on consumption and wealth hoarding, but the second part ain't gonna happen...

 

Edit:  Getting back to my long lost original point, when you want to work legally in Thailand, you have to satisfy three agencies.  Immigration, Labor and Taxation.  Getting permission from any one of them doesn't mean you won't have problems with another.  And getting a verbal nod from one person in an agency, doesn't even mean the agency is all good with it.

 

 

[Bastos60]

I guess you work as an independent contractor, do you have your own company? 

Thai government does not actively track money transfers so it is very unlikely that will cause a problem.  It is only when you become the focus of
an investigation for some reason that they will also check your bank activity. Only then it could become a second problem to deal with.

 

But another thing comes to mind, tax evasion, if you are not paying taxes anywhere on the income you generate, you are committing tax evasion, and you are 
liable in both your home country AND Thailand. 

 

As long as you don't get caught, no problems.
 

[rwdrwdrwd]

20 hours ago, impulse said:

 

I'm gobsmacked by that rule.  Or rather, the current interpretation of that rule.  Basically, as long as someone can show enough in the bank last year to cover this year's incoming money, they NEVER have to pay taxes on the money they make in ANY year.  Forever.   That just doesn't pass the sniff test. 

 

And, a good law firm will help their clients optimize their wealth under today's enforcement regime.  That doesn't mean it's legal,  Just that there won't be negative consequences exceeding the benefits.  And it certainly doesn't mean the interpretation won't change tomorrow.  I know a lot of guys praying it won't be retroactive (with penalties because they should have known better) if the Tax Department decides they've been doing it wrong all along.

 

Thing is this applies to Thai nationals as well, you reckon they will change the law and let it affect the uber wealthy Thais with international interests? I don't.
 

[impulse]

8 minutes ago, rwdrwdrwd said:

Thing is this applies to Thai nationals as well, you reckon they will change the law and let it affect the uber wealthy Thais with international interests? I don't.

 

You willing to bet your Thai future on it? 

 

I don't think so, either.  But monthly visa runs, ED visas for non-students and $600 overstay fines and back by tomorrow at lunch benefited a lot of the Elite immensely, so most of us didn't expect those changes.  Those who were prepared for the crackdown, are still enjoying Thailand.  Those that didn't prepare, not so much.

 

Besides, who's not afraid to investigate the HiSo's breaking the rules, versus who's not afraid to investigate foreigners?  The 2nd list is a lot bigger...

 

[Bastos60]

3 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Actually Thai tax code specifically says pensions are taxable income. 

 

Lets also be honest, many pensions are specifically set up to either not pay tax at time of contribution, pay reduced rates of tax, or to defer taxation until claimed when incomes are lower. So dependant on the pension scheme and country, no taxes are frequently not already paid on pensions. 

Thai tax code only mentions that pensions paid in Thailand are taxable income. for foreigners those pensions have been taxed already. 
Usually, countries have bilateral agreements on income taxation, meaning Thai people working abroad get taxed abroad and not in Thailand.

 

In Europe for instance, countries like Romania, Bulgary and Poland don't have such agreements with other European countries, forcing their citizens to work as independent contractors in other 
countries or work for local companies that send them out to other countries to work just to avoid dual taxation. 

[rwdrwdrwd]

31 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

You willing to bet your Thai future on it? 

 

I don't think so, either.  But monthly visa runs, ED visas for non-students and $600 overstay fines and back by tomorrow at lunch benefited a lot of the Elite immensely, so most of us didn't expect those changes.  Those who were prepared for the crackdown, are still enjoying Thailand.  Those that didn't, not so much.

  

The tax regime is about the only reason I'm still here TBH, I'd probably be offski ? - still zero foreign income tax options in Uruguay (at least for the first 5 years), Costa Rica, Seychelles, Caymans, Bahamas, BVI, Nicaragua perhaps, or one can just travel a lot and never end up tax resident in a single jurisdiction.

If someone really, really wanted to stay here they could just incorporate offshore and live most of their lives on expenses.

I genuinely don't think it'll happen in the near future though.

[rwdrwdrwd]

32 minutes ago, Bastos60 said:

I guess you work as an independent contractor, do you have your own company? 

Thai government does not actively track money transfers so it is very unlikely that will cause a problem.  It is only when you become the focus of
an investigation for some reason that they will also check your bank activity. Only then it could become a second problem to deal with.

 

But another thing comes to mind, tax evasion, if you are not paying taxes anywhere on the income you generate, you are committing tax evasion, and you are 
liable in both your home country AND Thailand. 

 

As long as you don't get caught, no problems.
 

Untrue. There are scenarios where income can perfectly legally not be taxable.

Resident of a country that taxes foreign income on a remittance basis, citizen of a country that does not tax foreign income of non resident citizens,  entirely non [Country of citizenship]/[Country of residence] sourced income, personal banking in a third jurisdiction which doesn't levy tax on foreign income, for example - so long as they can wait until the next tax year before sending to country of residence.

[Paul944]

By working as an internet nomad you already breaking the Thai law. Paying tax over the earnings will not legalize it. Instead of subsidizing the purchase of submarines and watches donate your money to some useful community projects, if this makes you feel good. Plenty of projects to choose from.

 

If you want to pay tax just buy a foreign car with a very big engine :)

 

Working in Thailand requires a Thai work permit. Yes working as an internet nomad being in Thailand is working in Thailand. It is impossible to get a Thai work permit for working as an internet nomad with only customers outside Thailand. Even if you get a work permit while working for a Thai customer this will not legalize the work you do for other customers. Enjoy that the law is not enforced on you. A privilege not many people have living under a military junta/

[FritsSikkink]

2 hours ago, Bastos60 said:

taxes are eventually paid since he spends a small part of the money in Thailand. Anything better than nothing.

Sure, what a load of nonsense.

[khunPer]

On 6/11/2018 at 11:19 AM, suave said:

I have a Thai bank account and was wondering if there is any problem getting a foreign company to make deposits directly to my account?  Would it raise any flags or problems for me?

Might be a problem, as foreign income is taxable in Thailand, if brought into the country same year as earned.

 

The threads about "digital normads" and official Thailand response seem to conclude, that if you work for someone abroad while staying in the Kingdom, and all transactions takes place abroad (including online work), you won't need a Thai Work Permit, or get into any problems Thai authorities. You can find some recent threads with links to official answers, using the ThaiVisa search-function – however I book-marked one of them...

If I was you, I would use a/my foreign bank account, eventually have a foreign company in operation for invoicing and payment of online work. When money is moved into Thailand from my private foreign account it's tax-free savings.

?

[arithai12]

5 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Did you ever consider they might be saying that to get money for preparing your tax returns.

Wow.

Maybe I wasn't clear: your initial question was about whether pensions are taxable, and I believe so - following the rule as other foreign-generated income, that is you only pay tax on what you transfer in the same solar year. As a result, I do not need to pay tax if I choose so. I believe many here are following this approach, fully within the law. I wrote that my lawyer confirmed this.

 

I do want to pay tax for other reasons, and on other sources of income. For this I use the lawyer, who I assure you is not getting rich doing my paperwork :-)

[jenny2017]

On 6/11/2018 at 5:40 PM, FritsSikkink said:

It would be a win for Thailand if you paid any tax.

  We just pay a bit more then, no problem. 

[timendres]

1 hour ago, khunPer said:

The threads about "digital normads" and official Thailand response seem to conclude, that if you work for someone abroad while staying in the Kingdom, and all transactions takes place abroad (including online work), you won't need a Thai Work Permit, or get into any problems Thai authorities. You can find some recent threads with links to official answers, using the ThaiVisa search-function – however I book-marked one of them...

I put this right up there with playing Bridge in Pattaya. Absolutely no problem... until it is.

The Thai government should make the rules clear, and make it possible to pay taxes when appropriate.

People really want to abide by the law, and most will when given the chance.

[FritsSikkink]

15 hours ago, jenny2017 said:

  We just pay a bit more then, no problem. 

Actually , I think it is a problem they get away with not paying tax, don't get a proper visa, while others do.

Rather pay a bit less tax and let the freeloaders pay some too (if they earn enough to pass the exemption of course)

[Bastos60]

23 hours ago, rwdrwdrwd said:

Untrue. There are scenarios where income can perfectly legally not be taxable.

Resident of a country that taxes foreign income on a remittance basis, citizen of a country that does not tax foreign income of non resident citizens,  entirely non [Country of citizenship]/[Country of residence] sourced income, personal banking in a third jurisdiction which doesn't levy tax on foreign income, for example - so long as they can wait until the next tax year before sending to country of residence.

That is a complete false statement. 

 

Income is taxable in every country. But what you refer to is what is considered taxable income and where was this income generated.

If I work for my company in thailand while on holiday for a non-thai customer I don't generate an income in Thailand, I am still generating it in my country of residence where
I will have to pay taxes. I will never be taxed in Thailand since it is nolonger an income when I transfer it into a Thai bankaccount, it is just personal finances.

 

A digital nomad that recruits customers through the internet from all over the world, is generating an income in his country of residence, even if he is abroad while on holiday, yes read carefully, holiday, digital nomads are always a resident in whatever country they come from and considered holidaymakers in visiting countries. It is perfectly possible to NOT DECLARE your income since it is very difficult to track but that is just common tax evasion. 

 

Neither of your examples apply to digital nomads. Why even bother writing them down. 

 

Every country has their tax laws and they are not the same for every country, but one thing is generally considered the same, money generated from labour is considered an income.

 

 

[Bastos60]

21 hours ago, arithai12 said:

Wow.

Maybe I wasn't clear: your initial question was about whether pensions are taxable, and I believe so - following the rule as other foreign-generated income, that is you only pay tax on what you transfer in the same solar year. As a result, I do not need to pay tax if I choose so. I believe many here are following this approach, fully within the law. I wrote that my lawyer confirmed this.

 

I do want to pay tax for other reasons, and on other sources of income. For this I use the lawyer, who I assure you is not getting rich doing my paperwork ?

Tax laws differ from country to country. 
For Belgium for instance you do pay taxes in Belgium even if you are a resident in Thailand and if that pension is transferred into a Thai bankaccount you are supposed to declare the pension in thailand and pay additional taxes on it.  Up to this point, and I checked official documentation, Belgium has no bilateral agreements with Thailand to avoid double taxation. But there is a loophole, 
if you leave the pension in a Belgian bank account and take money out of it as you need it, it is not considered income but personal finances from the point of the Thai government.

[PunkRockerGuy]

On 6/12/2018 at 9:14 AM, Fairynuff said:

So the fact the money will spent in Thailand, purchases will have VAT paid on them, jobs will be kept......that’s not a win for Thailand? Think before you criticise.

I don't think that was the meaning he intended.  It is a known fact, most Thais and many foreigners here do not pay the "real" taxes they should be paying.  

[PunkRockerGuy]

18 minutes ago, Bastos60 said:

Tax laws differ from country to country. 
For Belgium for instance you do pay taxes in Belgium even if you are a resident in Thailand and if that pension is transferred into a Thai bankaccount you are supposed to declare the pension in thailand and pay additional taxes on it.  Up to this point, and I checked official documentation, Belgium has no bilateral agreements with Thailand to avoid double taxation. But there is a loophole, 
if you leave the pension in a Belgian bank account and take money out of it as you need it, it is not considered income but personal finances from the point of the Thai government.

It's the same for Americans.  The IRS hunts us around the world like dogs ....

[PunkRockerGuy]

1 hour ago, Bastos60 said:

That is a complete false statement. 

 

Income is taxable in every country. But what you refer to is what is considered taxable income and where was this income generated.

If I work for my company in thailand while on holiday for a non-thai customer I don't generate an income in Thailand, I am still generating it in my country of residence where
I will have to pay taxes. I will never be taxed in Thailand since it is nolonger an income when I transfer it into a Thai bankaccount, it is just personal finances.

 

A digital nomad that recruits customers through the internet from all over the world, is generating an income in his country of residence, even if he is abroad while on holiday, yes read carefully, holiday, digital nomads are always a resident in whatever country they come from and considered holidaymakers in visiting countries. It is perfectly possible to NOT DECLARE your income since it is very difficult to track but that is just common tax evasion. 

 

Neither of your examples apply to digital nomads. Why even bother writing them down. 

 

Every country has their tax laws and they are not the same for every country, but one thing is generally considered the same, money generated from labour is considered an income.

 

 

You are incorrect.  I'm a pretty well-known lawyer in Thailand under my real name.  Under Thai law, if you are sitting at a desk in Thailand at your computer and you are actually working while on "vacation" or as a resident here, despite your client/customer is in another country, Thailand considers that taxable income, and technically you DO NEED a work permit for that.  You are just lucky that for now, Thailand is confused on how to handle this or tax the income.  

 

Where most of you are wrong is that when you transfer money from abroad, even if that is pension or salary, to your Thai bank account, it is NOT taxable income.  I worked for the DOR, MOI, DSI, and numerous Thai Senators.  Please do not give us misleading digital nomad information. 

[PunkRockerGuy]

22 hours ago, arithai12 said:

Wow.

Maybe I wasn't clear: your initial question was about whether pensions are taxable, and I believe so - following the rule as other foreign-generated income, that is you only pay tax on what you transfer in the same solar year. As a result, I do not need to pay tax if I choose so. I believe many here are following this approach, fully within the law. I wrote that my lawyer confirmed this.

 

I do want to pay tax for other reasons, and on other sources of income. For this I use the lawyer, who I assure you is not getting rich doing my paperwork ?

That is EXACTLY correct.  I am a lawyer here in Thailand, also. 

[BritTim]

On 6/12/2018 at 2:53 PM, Bastos60 said:

But another thing comes to mind, tax evasion, if you are not paying taxes anywhere on the income you generate, you are committing tax evasion, and you are 
 liable in both your home country AND Thailand. 

 

It may be "tax evasion" (illegal) but may be (legal) "tax avoidance". It depends on your nationality, where, when and how the money is earned, and possibly other factors.

[PunkRockerGuy]

2 hours ago, BritTim said:

It may be "tax evasion" (illegal) but may be (legal) "tax avoidance". It depends on your nationality, where, when and how the money is earned, and possibly other factors.

For Americans, in my companies, if you are a US resident, we take out the Thai taxes through K-Bank payroll system and YOU, the US resident, are the one who is responsible for filing a Tax Return, if your income exceeds the maximum non-taxable income allowed for your "household".  The last time I had a long discussion with a British friend, he told me that UK residents need only file their taxes to England for the first year abroad.  He told me that if he lived overseas for more than 1 calendar year he need not report his income back home.  I have no way to know if this is true, but perhaps another Brit could let us know his/her situation.  

[grkt]

hahaha, who working online would be stupid enough to pay any tax hahaha....