Trump says expects 'signing' after 'very good' talks with Kim

[sanemax]

3 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Please read, the answer to your question was at best 'we'll work towards it'.

The only achievement is a follow up meeting.

That is  a major achievement .

Working towards  common goals  , you could not have asked for more .

[Rarebear]

Just now, bristolboy said:

Because the members of the Kim dynasty truly care about the welfare of the people over which they have reigned for the past 75 years.

At the very worst it is a giant step forward.  I am amazed anyone can let your hate for a man cloud your judgement to such extreme levels of foolishness. 

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, sanemax said:

The previous agreements were by different people at a different time .

That was during the cold war , when there were hostilities between the East & West .

  The World is a different place these days .

NK is now marginalised , no guaranteed Chinese support .

 

Really? You sure about that cold war thing?

"In 1994, faced with North Korea’s announced intent to withdraw from the nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT), which requires non-nuclear weapon states to forswear the development and acquisition of nuclear weapons, the United States and North Korea signed the Agreed Framework. "

"The second major diplomatic effort were the Six-Party Talks initiated in August of 2003 which involved China, Japan, North Korea, Russia, South Korea, and the United States. In between periods of stalemate and crisis, those talks arrived at critical breakthroughs in 2005, when North Korea pledged to abandon “all nuclear weapons and existing nuclear programs” and return to the NPT, and in 2007, when the parties agreed on a series of steps to implement that 2005 agreement."

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/dprkchron

[Jingthing]

Just now, Rarebear said:

At the very worst it is a giant step forward.  I am amazed anyone can let your hate for a man cloud your judgement to such extreme levels of foolishness. 

Like I said similar agreements were made TWO TIMES BEFORE and nothing came of them. Those turned out not to be giant steps forward.

This might be the beginning a real change, but nobody knows that YET.

 

[bristolboy]

3 minutes ago, sanemax said:

That is  a major achievement .

Working towards  common goals  , you could not have asked for more .

And what are those common goals? And you know this how exactly?

[Rarebear]

5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

That is very naive. Everything Kim wants is to hold on to total power and regime survival. He doesn't care about his people and if they get too much freedom, wealth, and exposure to information, he could easily meet the fate of his brother, who he murdered.

He wants a MacDonald's and hotels.  That is the beginning of the end.

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, Rarebear said:

At the very worst it is a giant step forward.  I am amazed anyone can let your hate for a man cloud your judgement to such extreme levels of foolishness. 

So were the other 2 arms agreement with North Korea giant steps forward, too?

[Jingthing]

Another irony is that if "trump" got something as good as the Iran deal with NK (this first step is like 1 percent of that at this point) it would indeed be a major accomplishment. But he irrationally TRASHED that.

Why? Obama's name. 

[stevenl]

4 minutes ago, sanemax said:

That is  a major achievement .

Working towards  common goals  , you could not have asked for more .

That is your interpretation. A meeting is positive, agree, the result 'a new meeting' is meaningless until something solid and positive comes from it.

Could be we're on the right track, could also be the road to nowhere.

[sanemax]

2 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

And what are those common goals? And you know this how exactly?

They were written in the agreement signed today , I know this, because I read them

[stevenl]

2 minutes ago, Rarebear said:

He wants a MacDonald's and hotels.  That is the beginning of the end.

Common goal then: a Trump tower in Pyongyang.

[stevenl]

Just now, sanemax said:

They were written in the agreement signed today , I know this, because I read them

No, they were not. Your conclusion that those are the common goals is nonsense. Stated goals, yes.

[Rarebear]

10 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

So were the other 2 arms agreement with North Korea giant steps forward, too?

No.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there was a commitment to denuclearize of the Peninsula except for the NPT quite a while ago

Edited June 12, 2018 by Rarebear

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

They were written in the agreement signed today , I know this, because I read them

And they are sincerely subscribed to by both signatories because it's spring and love is in the air.

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, Rarebear said:

No.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there was a commitment to denuclearize of the Peninsula

,No just commitments by North Korea to denuclearize.

Edited June 12, 2018 by bristolboy

[Rarebear]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Another irony is that if "trump" got something as good as the Iran deal with NK (this first step is like 1 percent of that at this point) it would indeed be a major accomplishment. But he irrationally TRASHED that.

Why? Obama's name. 

I think Israel is the expert in that part of the world and they hated the Iran deal.  Why is that?  Does some other country have better intelligence than Israel?

[sanemax]

3 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

,No just commitments by North Korea to denuclearize.

President Trump committed to provide security guarantees to the DPRK, and Chairman Kim Jong Un reaffirmed his firm and unwavering commitment to complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Rarebear said:

I think Israel is the expert in that part of the world and they hated the Iran deal.  Why is that?  Does some other country have better intelligence than Israel?

They have great intelligence but the consensus of everyone was that Iran was indeed meeting the requirements of the deal. They were keeping it. It was untrustworthy "trump" that broke it. That is inexcusable as there is nothing to replace it and should definitely disqualify "trump" from consideration for a Nobel Prize EVER. 

[sanemax]

5 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

And they are sincerely subscribed to by both signatories because it's spring and love is in the air.

What was you expecting ?

Kim to have his nuclear weapons in a carrier bag and him throw them in a bin, there and then ?

 

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, Rarebear said:

I think Israel is the expert in that part of the world and they hated the Iran deal.  Why is that?  Does some other country have better intelligence than Israel?

Not that it''s relevant but most of the Israeli intelligence community thought the Iran deal was working.. It was Netanyahu and other similar minded politicians who opposed it.

Why Israeli Nuclear Experts Disagree with Netanyahu About the Iran Deal

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/why-israeli-nuclear-experts-disagree-with-netanyahu-about-the-iran-deal

[Rarebear]

Just now, Jingthing said:

They have great intelligence but the consensus of everyone was that Iran was indeed meeting the requirements of the deal. They were keeping it. It was untrustworthy "trump" that broke it. That is inexcusable as there is nothing to replace it and should definitely disqualify "trump" from consideration for a Nobel Prize EVER. 

The consensus of everyone except the great Israel intelligence service.  Our strongest ally in the area with the best intelligence in the world agrees with Trump.  That's enough for me.  I don't understand how you can say the "consensus of everyone" but exclude the most important party Israel?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Like I said similar agreements were made TWO TIMES BEFORE and nothing came of them. Those turned out not to be giant steps forward.

This might be the beginning a real change, but nobody knows that YET.

 

 

Indeed. From what I'm reading, the U.S. caved in to China and NK's demand for the U.S. to cease it's annual, or twice a year, joint military exercises with South Korea. That's something both had been demanding for a long time, and the U.S. had refused. And Trump apparently surrendered that without even telling South Korea first.

 

Now, that may be a good or a bad concession. But, if honored, it's clearly a very specific and observable objective -- the U.S. either will or won't hold those exercises, and the whole world will know and see.

 

So what did the U.S. and Trump get in exchange that's specific and observable?  The promise to close a missile engine factory and return of U.S. serviceman remains. Beyond that, apparently nothing. Promises from North Korea, the kind the regime has repeatedly made and broken before. No specific timelines. No details on foreign/international inspections and verification. And the same on virtually every other detail, except promises for the two sides to talk more in the future.

 

From the Washington Post:

 

Quote

 

But Trump provided few specifics about what steps Kim would take to back up his promise to denuclearize his country and how the United States would verify that North Korea was keeping its pledge to get rid of its nuclear weapons, saying that would be worked out in future talks.

.....

South Korea’s presidential office seemed blindsided by the announcement on the joint exercises. “We need to try to understand what President Trump said,” a spokesman for South Korean President Moon Jae-in said.

By calling off the exercises, Trump was essentially agreeing to China’s demand for a “freeze for freeze” — the U.S. halting military exercises in return for North Korea stopping military and nuclear tests.

..............

 

But the document is an outline, with no specifics or deadlines, and it leaves the details on key issues such as how the United States would verify that North Korea had given up its nuclear program for future talks. It commits the two leaders to follow-on meetings and a new relationship between the nations, but it does not say that diplomatic relations would be opened.

 

 

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

What was you expecting ?

Kim to have his nuclear weapons in a carrier bag and him throw them in a bin, there and then ?

 

I'm not the one who believes he's a mind reader and can discern the actual intentions of the signatories.

[Rarebear]

3 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Not that it''s relevant but most of the Israeli intelligence community thought the Iran deal was working.. It was Netanyahu and other similar minded politicians who opposed it.

Why Israeli Nuclear Experts Disagree with Netanyahu About the Iran Deal

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/why-israeli-nuclear-experts-disagree-with-netanyahu-about-the-iran-deal

I didn't know that. 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Rarebear said:

The consensus of everyone except the great Israel intelligence service.  Our strongest ally in the area with the best intelligence in the world agrees with Trump.  That's enough for me.  I don't understand how you can say the "consensus of everyone" but exclude the most important party Israel?

You're wrong. Israel didn't think they weren't meeting the deal either. They just didn't like the deal. Also, Israel was not a signatory to the deal anyway. 

[Rarebear]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

You're wrong. Israel didn't think they weren't meeting the deal either. They just didn't like the deal. Also, Israel was not a signatory to the deal anyway. 

Thanks for pointing that out.

[stevenl]

7 minutes ago, Rarebear said:

The consensus of everyone except the great Israel intelligence service.  Our strongest ally in the area with the best intelligence in the world agrees with Trump.  That's enough for me.  I don't understand how you can say the "consensus of everyone" but exclude the most important party Israel?

Consensus of everyone including Israel intelligence, except for netanyahu.

But Israel was opposed to the deal anyway.

Edited June 12, 2018 by stevenl

[attrayant]

Vox: Trump just struck a shockingly weak deal with North Korea

 

 

The agreement’s language is apparently more vague and less demanding of North Korea’s denuclearization program than previous agreements the US has had with the country. Some see Trump’s decision to halt joint US-South Korean military exercises as a huge and unreciprocated giveaway to Kim.

 

At best, we’re back to where we were before Trump started breaking things.

[sanemax]

10 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

I'm not the one who believes he's a mind reader and can discern the actual intentions of the signatories.

I am not a mind reader either , although I am a reader of bits of paper with agreements written on them and the intentions are clearly written there 

[sanemax]

9 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Consensus of everyone including Israel intelligence, except for netanyahu.

But Israel was opposed to the deal anyway.

Going that far off topic, will lead to deletions for going off topic by the mods