Australia - Departure Prohibition Order

[Russell17au]

I would advise you to think twice before taking Stevemercer's advice on how to handle this. The 2 episodes that Steve mentioned are much much different to this one that you are facing. For a starter this case involves a debt that you have run up by not paying what you were supposed to pay and it also involves your children. Steve said to camp out on the front doorstep of your local members office and advise the media. For god sake don't do anything stupid like that unless you want to have your children dragged through all this rubbish that you have created, the media would love nothing better than to get their hands on your ex-wife and your children in cases like this and all CSA has to do is show the public that you have not paid your Child Support. If you want this lifted there is only 2 ways that you are going to be able to do it.

1: pay the debt

2: You are going to have to give some type of guarantee to CSA that you will return to Australia and that you will meet the agreed arranged payment scheme that you have signed on.

I am sorry but your word would not be a good enough guarantee.

Also remember that CSA is linked to the Tax Office and if you have a large tax debt you are stopped from leaving the country.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Russell17au

[BEVUP]

2 hours ago, JohnGordon said:

My three eldest kids were living with me and studying at uni. Two had part-time jobs but I was supporting them all. Because they were over 18 I got no child support. Two have finished uni now so it's easier but for a couple of years I struggled badly. Things like collecting 5 cent pieces to get milk for breakfast in the morning.

 

The CSA debt relates to my 12yo son who lives with mom. For 5 years the CSA debts were upto date but I stopped paying when she screwed me over for the car. I bought her a new Mazda for $20,000 cash when I had a good year in 2015 thinking I would be nice. She works full-time as a nurse and earns more than me now.

 

"Humanitarian" grounds for a DAC includes "compassionate" and I'm trying to say I need to visit my traditional and conservative Thai girlfriends parents so we can get engaged. I'm not going to Thailand to sit on the beach in a resort or go with bar girls in Pattaya.

 

If I can prove the cultural necessity of visiting her family in Thailand I have a chance. 

 

You guys know Australia and Thailand, how can I prove I need to meet her parents.

Unfortunately your screwed by a bunch of dickless pencil pushers & feminists that would not see the compassionate side of you providing a car for your childs travels 

Some of the people here don't realise why the Gov (or feminists ) need to calculate earnings on a Gross wage (they deduct of that figure ) not what you take home 

Personally I've never been in that situation, therefore remain outside of Auss concerning my family 

Why would I even want to put my son in that position when he can retain all by owning prior to marriage 

[JohnGordon]

I'm on a repayment plan with the CSA and upto date with that. Even so the CSA have refused a Departure Authorisation Certificate until the debt is cleared.

 

I want to visit Thailand to meet the family for a week. I'm not going to sit on a beach, and neither am I skipping the country to avoid the CSA debt.

 

I havn't told my Thai partner about the DPO. I asked about flying her parents here or doing a Skype interview but she won't go for it.

 

Getting a DAC based on compassionate grounds seems like my best option.

[Russell17au]

5 minutes ago, JohnGordon said:

I'm on a repayment plan with the CSA and upto date with that. Even so the CSA have refused a Departure Authorisation Certificate until the debt is cleared.

 

I want to visit Thailand to meet the family for a week. I'm not going to sit on a beach, and neither am I skipping the country to avoid the CSA debt.

 

I havn't told my Thai partner about the DPO. I asked about flying her parents here or doing a Skype interview but she won't go for it.

 

Getting a DAC based on compassionate grounds seems like my best option.

Like I said before you either clear the debt or you will have to supply some type of guarantee that you will return to Australia and clear the debt. They are not going to let you just clear out without that guarantee. You have tp prove that you are not skipping the country and I'm sorry but your word is not good enough.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Russell17au

[JohnGordon]

I don't think the CSA is worried about me skipping the country. My family, business and social connections are all here. Me and my family have lived here for 8 generations and I've never lived overseas.

 

The reality is that the DPO is punative to punish me.

[Russell17au]

33 minutes ago, JohnGordon said:

I don't think the CSA is worried about me skipping the country. My family, business and social connections are all here. Me and my family have lived here for 8 generations and I've never lived overseas.

 

The reality is that the DPO is punative to punish me.

BUT, you want to go to Thailand to visit with your future wife's family. You just don't get it do you? Your future wife is from Thailand and you want to leave Australia and go to Thailand to visit with her family. Your future wife does not have a Permanent Residence Visa to live permanently in Australia which means she will have to return to Thailand so what are you going to do stay here on your own our are you going to go with your wife to Thailand. Wake up man , CSA and DPO are not stupid. They are not going to let you leave until they have something concrete that you are going to honor your commitment which remember you failed to honor your commitment before or you would not be in this mess. By the way it takes around 10 months from the time you apply for your wife to have her Spousal Permanent Residents Visa approved.

No, DPO is not punitive to punish you, remember that you brought this upon yourself, You did not take your responsibility seriously about paying you child maintenance and you are still not taking your responsibility for what is happening to you now, you are blaming DPO, you better learn to accept the responsibility that this is all your own making, you are the one who made the stupid decision not to pay your child support. No one else but you

[Oxx]

43 minutes ago, JohnGordon said:

I don't think the CSA is worried about me skipping the country. My family, business and social connections are all here. Me and my family have lived here for 8 generations and I've never lived overseas.

 

The reality is that the DPO is punative to punish me.

 

Just beginning to wonder whether you're not a native English speaker and that your story is, shall we say, disingenuous.

 

"I don't think the CSA is worried about me skipping the country" should be "my skipping the country".

 

"I've been dating a Thai woman here is Melbourne" should be "in Melbourne".

 

"Her family are middle-class" should be "is middle class".

 

"a single trip to her the Thai family" should be "her Thai family".

 

"My girlfriend works and her family are very respectable.  Neither her or her family have ever asked for money" should be "is" "she" and "has".

 

My point here isn't to correct your dodgy grammar, but to question the honesty of your statements about background.

 

 

 

 

[Farma]

Qxx looks like normal Oz english to me.

[JohnGordon]

Totally genuine. My background is born and raised in Australia.

[Russell17au]

How much do you think the 820 permanent residents visa is going to cost you and where are you going to apply for it?

[JohnGordon]

We've been collecting documents for the 820 Partner Visa for six months. The application costs is $7,000 and we're both contributing to it.

[Will27]

2 hours ago, JohnGordon said:

I don't think the CSA is worried about me skipping the country. My family, business and social connections are all here. Me and my family have lived here for 8 generations and I've never lived overseas.

 

The reality is that the DPO is punative to punish me.

Another way your ex-wife and CSA may be looking at it is, why should you go on an overseas jaunt when you still owe her $45 000?

 

Also, you said in an earlier post that you "were being nice"and brought your wife a car for $25 000.

That sounds like a gift/present to me, so it's no wonder the CSA wouldn't accept it lieu of 

child support payments.

 

Not having a go at you, just letting you know an alternative opinion.

[JohnGordon]

In hindsight I would have done things differently but I've got to deal with the current situation.

[Russell17au]

9 hours ago, JohnGordon said:

We've been collecting documents for the 820 Partner Visa for six months. The application costs is $7,000 and we're both contributing to it.

John I have been through this and by the time it is finished the cost is around $10,000 that is what it cost me.

There is also something that you have said that interests me as to what your answer is. Why have you not told your future wife that you have this RDO on you and that you have this debt that you must pay before you are allowed to travel overseas. Are you afraid that she will finish the relationship with you? A good relationship starts with honesty and you are not being honest with your future wife.

[Stevemercer]

If it is not possible to lift the order, and you want to marry your girlfriend, are you able to do this in Australia? You can do the Thai marriage ceremony later, to satisfy her family, when you are able to travel to Thailand.

 

Sure, your wife will still have to return to Thailand to apply for her spouse visa (if it is intended she lives with you in Australia), and it will take some time, but at least you can start the ball rolling.

 

Once you are married, I would assume it would be easier to get one-off permission to visit Thailand on humanitarian grounds. Surely it is reasonable for you to visit your wife every so often if her work commitments in Thailand do not allow her to visit you in Australia all the time. In addition, there might be a family crisis in Thailand where she needs her husband's support from time to time.

 

Obviously your residency will remain in Australia, and you will have to continue to pay your debt, but I'm not sure the DAC is about preventing you from moving on and getting married again?

 

Maybe I'm wrong.

[dundas]

I was never a client of the Australian Child Support Agency although I was a non-custodial parent. Instead I came to an agreement with my ex, and that worked fine until my son was 18. I actually paid less than the official rate, which in my opinion is punitive. Even paying the lesser amount that I did crippled me financially for a long time. I survived it in the end but having kids an then a marriage breakup can be a road to impoverishment for many men. 

 

 I also want to say (in a very, very quiet voice before I get s**t upon by some posters here) that I once worked for CSA, and one of the problems the organisation faced was the 'deadbeat dads' -- often quite wealthy blokes who wouldn't pay to support their kids, who hid their assets and income and who often times skipped the country -- sometimes for good reason, sometimes out of vindictiveness. Regardless of the reason,  when payment wasn't made, the government would end up picking up the tab.

 

It's that kind of behaviour, repeated thousands of times, that's brought about the situation the OP is facing, call it what you like. Many have gone before, unfortunately for him. 

 

You don't need too much imagination to work out what kind of place CSA is. Think about it for a nano-second or longer and you can anticipate a lot of drama with the custodial parent (who may see themselves as a victim of the heartless bastard who won't pay any money to support their kids and 'why won't this ***** useless agency get the money off him?') and also the non-custodial parents, who may also describe themselves as victims ('she's putting my heard-earned up her arm, why don't you do something about that, you useless pack of mongrels?'). Then there's the impact on the staff who field these calls. Somebody at a party once told me about a CSA call centre operator who excused herself to answer an incoming call by saying 'Just a minute, I've got another loser on the line.' The point is, CSA is by design the frontline for broken-family drama and it's drama about money, which is why maybe CSA is so heavy handed. 

 

On the face of it, blocking the OP leaving the country seems a bit too much of a final solution --  but then again, custodial parents, CSA and the government have been long term victims of people who skip the country. 

 

Basically the rule is, if you **** **** and bring kids into this world, you will end up carrying the responsibility for that. Been there, done that.

 

Actually you might be able to avoid the consequences, you can, for example, reduce the assessable income to nothing, or get work in some parts of the far north where it's more or less accepted etiquette not to ask people questions about what they do or where they come from or what their real name is (because so many are running away from responsibilities elsewhere in Australia).  But given the amount of debt already owing, leaving the country in a legal way under your own name? Nope, not easily. 

 

Appealing the decision through bureaucratic procedures seems like a good idea to me.

Borrowing the $45K to pay off the debt? Maybe. 

Offering something as surety for your safe return? You could try it. 

Plus doing what another poster has suggested  -- telling the Thai gf what the situation is ... definitely. 

[Will27]

1 hour ago, Stevemercer said:

If it is not possible to lift the order, and you want to marry your girlfriend, are you able to do this in Australia? You can do the Thai marriage ceremony later, to satisfy her family, when you are able to travel to Thailand.

 

Sure, your wife will still have to return to Thailand to apply for her spouse visa (if it is intended she lives with you in Australia), and it will take some time, but at least you can start the ball rolling.

 

Once you are married, I would assume it would be easier to get one-off permission to visit Thailand on humanitarian grounds. Surely it is reasonable for you to visit your wife every so often if her work commitments in Thailand do not allow her to visit you in Australia all the time. In addition, there might be a family crisis in Thailand where she needs her husband's support from time to time.

 

Obviously your residency will remain in Australia, and you will have to continue to pay your debt, but I'm not sure the DAC is about preventing you from moving on and getting married again?

 

Maybe I'm wrong.

His partner is in Australia on a student visa.

 

She doesn't have to return to Thailand as they can apply onshore.

[GOLDBUGGY]

On 6/12/2018 at 3:32 PM, JohnGordon said:

The debt is $45k. If I had it I'd pay it.

 

The dispute is that I bought the ex a new car for $25k a couple of years ago on the basis it would be offset against the CSA debt. Then she turned around and refused to do this, saying she wanted both the car and the cash,  so I stopped making CSA payments and the debt has grown to $45k

It is too bad your x screwed you out of 25k, but when it comes to this line up with the rest of us.

 

I am not going to lecture you in that even with this car you are 20k in arrears, as you never paid any Child Support for years. But I will tell you this. You are dealing with the most ruthless people you will ever encounter in your life with the people who handle fathers who don't pay Child Support. Preventing you from travelling is only the first step in what they can do to make your life a living hell.

 

Long gone are the days when a man could walk away from his wife and kids and they go to welfare to be supported. Or go to a country like Thailand and hide out for a few years, hoping they will forget all about you. They will hunt you down like a Rabbid Dog! Stop you from leaving the country. Garnish you wages! Take away Tax Refunds. Take away possessions. Throw you in jail. This list goes on and on. Even if you were to go Bankrupt, this debt will never be errased. So the only way to errase this debt is to pay it off. 

 

Perhaps if you start paying again, and a little extra to help to clear up this back payments, they may be more prone to listen to you, and remove your travel ban. But like I said they are ruthless people to deal with so don't expect too much. But do beleive you have no place where you can run to or hide from.   .   

[JohnGordon]

I've been on a CSA repayment plan for a while and it's upto date.

 

My eldest 3 kids all wanted to live with me and I never got a cent of child support because they were over 18. For a couple of years I was so broke I often had to hop on a tram without money on the Myki. The eldest 2 have finished uni and are working so now it's a lot easier. The ex got $900k cash in the property settlement and I got the business which has been struggling.

 

I could have lied about my income and hidden things but I didn't. I don't drink, smoke or gamble. No flash cars, fancy lifestyle or hookers.

 

Back to the original question - how can I prove to the CSA that I need a DAC to visit Thailand to meet my gf's parents? How can I prove this is a cultural necessity?

[ELVIS123456]

15 hours ago, Will27 said:

I enjoy reading your posts on the OAP as they're usually very informative, but I don't know how you can call your highlighted sentence factual.

I will admit it is anecdotal and there has been no 'study'.  But dont bother trying to prove otherwise - you will not be able to do so.  But go right ahead if you can.

But I can say I have a lot of knowledge about Fed Govt organisations and what really goes on inside them and what the people there are really like - 25+ years experience.

There is a reason Canberra is the divorce capital of Australia, by a long way, and it aint because the people there struggle to make a living - quite the opposite.

Edited June 14, 2018 by ELVIS123456

[ELVIS123456]

18 minutes ago, JohnGordon said:

I've been on a CSA repayment plan for a while and it's upto date.

 

My eldest 3 kids all wanted to live with me and I never got a cent of child support because they were over 18. For a couple of years I was so broke I often had to hop on a tram without money on the Myki. The eldest 2 have finished uni and are working so now it's a lot easier. The ex got $900k cash in the property settlement and I got the business which has been struggling.

 

I could have lied about my income and hidden things but I didn't. I don't drink, smoke or gamble. No flash cars, fancy lifestyle or hookers.

 

Back to the original question - how can I prove to the CSA that I need a DAC to visit Thailand to meet my gf's parents? How can I prove this is a cultural necessity?

Somehow John I get the feeling you are not telling the whole story.

You earned enough to give the Ex $900K, and you owned a business, but you cant work this out - I smell dead fish.

 

Stat Dec from the propective wife - obviously.

 

Click click click click ..... finished.

 

[JohnGordon]

Might try the St Dec, good idea.
CSA dragon woman said they would need reference documents to show that visiting the parents was an essential custom.

[Surin13]

3 hours ago, JohnGordon said:

Back to the original question - how can I prove to the CSA that I need a DAC to visit Thailand to meet my gf's parents? How can I prove this is a cultural necessity?

You can't because it's not a cultural necessity in Thailand at all, also there is nothing stopping them coming to see you etc, besides the fact they don't want too, which in itself because they don't wish too works against you.

 

You have no Humanitarian grounds include compassionate grounds to visit Thailand, your only grounds that you have given is personal preference. 

 

Given your past wanton disregard for your legal obligations and the age of the child etc I don't see the DPO being lifted until several years after the paying off the debt and a few years of meeting your obligations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnGordon]

If I wanted personal attacks I would have asked the ex, I'm sure she would be happy to oblige and also do a very competent job.

 

What I'm looking for is a reference on Thai cultural norms.

[BEVUP]

19 minutes ago, JohnGordon said:

If I wanted personal attacks I would have asked the ex, I'm sure she would be happy to oblige and also do a very competent job.

 

What I'm looking for is a reference on Thai cultural norms.

I'm probably wrong, but would one say that negotiating Sinsod with parents (in person ) a traditional custom, & to actually see & judge the type of person that shall be marrying their daughter.

It has been going on for a long time in Asia, or is it just an expectation

 

& if CSA  attemps to to apply that you are able to give money, you need to show that there are different ways to give over the longer term.

Edited June 15, 2018 by BEVUP

[Will27]

39 minutes ago, JohnGordon said:

If I wanted personal attacks I would have asked the ex, I'm sure she would be happy to oblige and also do a very competent job.

 

What I'm looking for is a reference on Thai cultural norms.

I think Surin13 and a few others have already said it would be unlikely to succeed on humanitarian grounds,

so you can only try and see what happens.

 

TBH, meeting the future in-laws would be pretty much standard procedure in most countries.

Saying it's for humanitarian reasons is a stretch IMO.

[GOLDBUGGY]

47 minutes ago, JohnGordon said:

If I wanted personal attacks I would have asked the ex, I'm sure she would be happy to oblige and also do a very competent job.

 

What I'm looking for is a reference on Thai cultural norms.

I don't think that the people here want to do personal attacks on you. I think in most cases people are sympathetic towards you. Most Men who have gone through a nasty Divorce can tell you how unfare that was. How having to pay Child Support with very limited rights, especially when there are a few kids involved, can break you financially. Or how nasty the CSA can be when you don't pay. 

 

But the fact of the matter is that you are in this predicament now because you fell behind on your Child Support Payments, for whatever reason, and told your X you planned on leaving the country. Owing money to the CSA who other than owing money to a Loan Shark, are probably the worst people in the world to owe money to. You say you are keeping up with your payments now and this is all water under the bridge now, but it isn't. As if it was you would be free to travel now. 

 

The second point you don't want to grasp or understand is that your Thai Fiancee, who wishes to visit her parents with you to get there blessing first before marriage, is not an "Essential Custom". My Thai Wife has several friends who moved Overseas, and ended up getting married there, and who there parents never even met there new husbands yet.  

 

So it is not a personal attack to tell you that they feel that you don't have a case and that getting the CSA to left your Travel Ban, based on a "Essential Customs" is about as much chance as a One Legged Man winning the Ass Kicking Contest. 

 

Better to make plans to get married where you live now and have a Buddhist Wedding in Thailand at a later date. Or just wait a couple of years longer. 

[Surin13]

On 6/15/2018 at 11:06 AM, JohnGordon said:

If I wanted personal attacks I would have asked the ex, I'm sure she would be happy to oblige and also do a very competent job.

It wasn't a personal attack, a DPO is issued because you have has persistently & without reasonable grounds failed to pay child support debts and the Registrar believes that if you leave Australia you may not  wholly discharging the liability.

 

On 6/15/2018 at 11:06 AM, JohnGordon said:

 

What I'm looking for is a reference on Thai cultural norms.

The fact your asking this shows you don't even understand what humanitarian grounds are. 

 

As an example humanitarian grounds are normally something outside your control that has happen, such as parent is terminally ill, a child/partner are in a serious (life/death) medical situation or close family member has died etc,  ie life and death matters and too not let you travel would be inhumane and cruel.

 

It's not to appease cultural norms, so don't waste your time looking for these references.

 

  

 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by Surin13

[seajae]

If you paid cash for the car under your own name when you were already separated and can show this then they might  accept it, A stat dec stating that it was part of your agreement on the payments may well make them look at it. The fact you bought it after you were no longer together should be enough for them but you have to prove you bought it as part of the agreement, rare for someone to buy a car for someone they are separated from for no reason, will still leave you with a debt but not as much, if you can get anyone to back you up even better. All you should have to do is prove you bought/paid for the car to them and they should accept it

[Will27]

11 minutes ago, seajae said:

If you paid cash for the car under your own name when you were already separated and can show this then they might  accept it, A stat dec stating that it was part of your agreement on the payments may well make them look at it. The fact you bought it after you were no longer together should be enough for them but you have to prove you bought it as part of the agreement, rare for someone to buy a car for someone they are separated from for no reason, will still leave you with a debt but not as much, if you can get anyone to back you up even better. All you should have to do is prove you bought/paid for the car to them and they should accept it

That's not entirely correct.

 

The OP said he bought his ex-wife a car as he was being nice.

Sounds like a gift to me.

 

If the ex-wife didn't accept it as child support and hasn't signed documentation wanting to accept it in lieu

of child support payments, he's pretty much screwed.