Divorce and asset division - advice sought !

[AlbionBob]

I am looking for some advice regarding a situation that I find myself in and which I am sure some of the Thai Visa pundits will have encountered either themselves or with friends they have in Thailand.  I have been coming to Thailand regularly for 4 years (13 trips), and read Thai Visa all the time, although I am not a regular poster.

 

I first came to Thailand 4 years ago and fell in love with the country and in particular a lady, who, yes, I did meet in a bar (she was an accompanying dancer at a pingpong show !).  I decided fairly early on my trips that I would buy a condo in Pattaya to accommodate myself on my travels to Thailand, being retired, and having a small amount of  spare cash (inherited).  I signed to buy a condo (in June 2014) that had just been commenced in foreign name (myself only), paid deposit and some subsequent instalments.

 

By this time, I was committed to my girl friend and we subsequently married in May 2015.  Full village wedding, paid sinsod and legalised at Amphur.  Yes, I know, against all Thai Visa recommendations !  At the time of the marriage, I had paid 865,000 B out of the 3M B purchase price, and subsequently paid the balance in February 2016.  At that time, and partially thinking that she would be entitled to half  in any event, and thinking that, by doing so, it would assist in getting her a Visa to come to England (which it did !), I arranged for the condo to be in joint names.  As may have been predicted the relationship has now seemingly broken down and divorce seems inevitable. 

 

My question is:  is she entitled to half of the value of the condo, since I had contracted to buy it before we married ?   At no time, has she worked since we have been together or put any money into the relationship.  I do feel aggrieved that she should get even half, but accept that that is the law in Thailand (it would be much worse back in England of course).  I don't particularly want to sell the condo as I really like it and would like to keep it for future visits.  Should I refuse to sell and maybe offer some money to her to just go - if so, how much ?  Or maybe, I should just walk away....?   I know some people seem to recommend this ("don't invest in Thailand any more than you are prepared to lose")

 

I think that I will need a local solicitor to deal with this situation, and if anyone can recommend one, that would obviously need to speak English, I would be grateful.

I never felt that she was a money grabber and we were very happy for four years.  I think that her family are encouraging her to go for the money (maybe they see a "rich" falang disappearing from the family - I have given to various family members in the last couple of years).

 

Please only considered responses.  I know that (i) I should never have bought property in Thailand, (ii) I should never have put her name on the deeds and (iii) I should never have got married here !   Always, wise after the event !!   Thank you in anticipation.

[Kwasaki]

From my experience every case and circumstances are different in cases of couples parting it's best to be sorted out in court IMO not here,  hire a English speaking lawyer.

[CanuckThai]

Sorry to hear.  Good luck with it...

[KhaoYai]

Under Thai law, you are only required to split assets you have acquired after marriage - that's the gist of it.  You may or may not realise this but when you registered your marriage at the Amphur, you will have been given the chance to list any assets you held already.  That makes is much easier if you subsequently divorce. In your case, if the law is applied correctly, then any monies you paid for the condo prior to marriage should be subtracted from the 'pot' before splitting it up. Your wife is only entitled to 50% of the rise in value of assets acquired after marriage.

 

However, it can and will get a lot more complicated if you don't get the correct legal advice.  I don't know if I'm allowed to do this but I would recommend Sebastian Brousseau at Isaan Lawyers in Nakhon Ratchasima (Korat).  Sebastian has saved many a farang's bacon in divorce cases. He is French Canadian but speaks perfect English and there are Thai lawyers in the practice. Korat may be out of your way but he will conduct Skype interviews.

 

If I see this content has been removed, I will try to send you a PM.

[BritManToo]

2 hours ago, AlbionBob said:

My question is:  is she entitled to half of the value of the condo, since I had contracted to buy it before we married ?  

If you can prove you brought the money into Thailand to pay for the apartment, it's yours alone.

Divorce split only applies to money earned after marriage.

Money earned before marriage, and assets purchased with money earned before marriage are entirely yours.

This also applies to gifts given to wife with money earned before marriage, she has to give them back.

If you bought her a car with money earned before, it's considered a conditional gift (conditional on her remaining your wife).

Same with gifts of gold or land. If she contests any of the purchases, she would be required to provide a money trail as to how she paid.

 

Previous poster is entirely wrong, it's not when you bought any assets, but when you earned the money to buy those assets. I wouldn't be using a law firm where their shills don't know the law, they won't be on your side (Thai rak Thai). Plenty of lawyers in BKK.

Thailand is a great place to get married, no asset splits, no alimony, no child support.

[whiteman]

wow and this thing still goes on even after the world wide spread of internet info good luck to you I hope you still have funds left over here to enjoy your retirement

[AlbionBob]

Thanks for the responses - very interesting !   My other problem, of course, is getting her to leave the condo, seeing as she lives there and I will only be in Thailand for max of 5 months of the year.  If  the lawyers decided that she has no entitlement to anything (other than 50% of some contents we acquired during the marriage), how could I get her out ?  I wouldn't want any unpleasantness, which is why I might suggest giving her some money, say 100,000B.   Would this compromise me in any way, do you think ?

[KhaoYai]

5 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Previous poster is entirely wrong, it's not when you bought any assets, but when you earned the money to buy those assets. I wouldn't be using a law firm where their shills don't know the law, they won't be on your side (Thai rak Thai). Plenty of lawyers in BKK.

Thailand is a great place to get married, no asset splits, no alimony, no child support.

Entirely wrong?  I would say that what you have stated is additional information which if true is useful but it hardly makes my post 'entirely wrong'.

 

Interesting that you think that not supporting your children after a divorce is great - very nice that.

 

If you are meaning the lawyer I recommended when you state you wouldn't use a firm that doesn't know the law, please qualify that.  The firm I'm talking about have represented many foreigners in divorce cases and successfully secured their assets. My statements are not their statements.  From a personal point of view, I would prefer a firm that has a foriegn director to a totally Thai company - as you say yourself, Thai rak Thai.

[KhaoYai]

11 minutes ago, AlbionBob said:

Thanks for the responses - very interesting !   My other problem, of course, is getting her to leave the condo, seeing as she lives there and I will only be in Thailand for max of 5 months of the year.  If  the lawyers decided that she has no entitlement to anything (other than 50% of some contents we acquired during the marriage), how could I get her out ?  I wouldn't want any unpleasantness, which is why I might suggest giving her some money, say 100,000B.   Would this compromise me in any way, do you think ?

You will find that in Thailand, as much as we slag them off, the police do get involved in what would be classed as civil matters in the UK where the police won't help.  I'm pretty sure that if you do win your case and take full possesion of the condo, you will find the police will assist with her eviction.  However, if you want the condo to stay in one piece, I would make some agreement with her.

 

You really do need to contact a lawyer on this as soon as possible or you going to find that things start disappearing.

[whiteman]

I also had a mate in the same bother as you and low and behold she changed the locks and sold every thing off inside the apartment and then moved out and rented it out to a  thai.

 

The owners of the condo building did not want to hear about it and told the security guards to not let him inside the building meaning the foreigner who actually paid in the first place for the condo.

 

Happy days ahead 

[blackcab]

By placing her name on the condo Chanote you willingly gave her half of the property.

 

Your generous act completely supersedes the very good sin suan tua argument made by @BritManTooand the very good ante nuptial argument made by @KhaoYai - both if which would have merit in other cases.

 

You willingly gave her half. That's it.

 

Your real problem will be trying to sell the property with a sitting Thai tenant who does not want it sold.

[BritManToo]

46 minutes ago, blackcab said:

Your generous act completely supersedes the very good sin suan tua argument made by @BritManToo

I don't think it does, gifts within marriage are considered conditional on the marriage continuing.

He can ask for any substantial gifts to be returned on divorce.

 

Just my opinion of course, if it were me I'd just give it to here and move on.

Life's too short to worry about stuff you lost to women you slept with.

[theguyfromanotherforum]

Totally a schadenfreude thread. 

 

Subscribing!

[Rc2702]

For the pain you'd be better of giving her a million baht and the condo and slinging your hook and that is as close to a win your gonna get.

 

 

[blackcab]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

I don't think it does, gifts within marriage are considered conditional on the marriage continuing.

He can ask for any substantial gifts to be returned on divorce.

 

Kongman/sinsod yes, but a real property right such as a Chanote in joint names would be considered sin somros.

 

I appreciate your position about the destruction/reconstitution of sin suan tua, and I would agree with you in almost all other cases other than a real property right.

 

That said, I think we will all be keen for the OP to keep the thread updated with his progress. Whichever way it goes this should be a caution to others that follow.

[KhaoYai]

I'm not so sure that he has lost out by putting the property in both names (I missed that earlier). Yes, the property is jointly held but it was at least partly paid for with funds held before the marriage.  Either way, I'm not a lawyer but I have learned that a hell of a lot of foreign husbands have lost out by believing the law in Thailand is automatically against them and simply walking away.  In this case I hope the OP has now either seen a lawyer or arranged to.

 

In general, I think its a pretty fair assumption that in most cases where a Farang/Thai couple buy a property the money comes from the Farang but in many cases the house is in the Thai's name due to ownership laws.  I, like a lot of others, used to think that in such cases, if the marriage broke down, you'd had it - goodbye house. You may not be able to own land in Thailand but the law does in fact give you more protection than you think and is quite clear providing you can show a paper trail.  In a lot of respects, it is possible that in a break up you will actually lose far less than you would in similar circumstances in your home country.

 

Whilst we are on the subject of divorce and assets - I'll take this opportunity to pass some vaulable information on to others.  A great many of us will be married to a woman far younger than we are and a UK lawyer recently told me of an imortant factor that is taken into consideration in the event of a divorce.  This applies to the UK - I can't comment on other countries: 

 

When you are divorcing and the court is deciding how to spit up the assets of that marriage they take various things into consideration, length of marriage, children etc. etc. But one thing I was not aware of is that they will also place importance on the impact of the loss of assets on each party.  Clearly if you are approaching retirement but your wife is in her 30's, the impact of losing a large chunk of your assets would be greater on you than it would your wife.  A man of 55 would have 10 years of earnings to help him finacially recover from the break up before he retires whilst his wife may have over 30 years.  Apparently most UK courts can and do, place great importance on this factor when making financial orders.  So there are some benefits to being an old git ?.  Without going into detail, I know this to be true.

 

[AlbionBob]

Thanks for all your comments.  

 

I return to Thailand tomorrow, not knowing what to expect, as she has not answered my Facetime calls !!

 

It is certainly my intention to seek legal advise from solicitors on my return.

 

Obviously, I will seek a compromise with her ladyship, but I fear that she is assuming she will keep possession of the condo....

 

Watch this space !!

[KhaoYai]

Forewarned is forearmed - I'd suggest you see a lawyer before you meet up with your ex. Far better to enter negotiations when  you know the facts.

[AlbionBob]

I feel almost ashamed to admit that the expected confrontation has not happened and she has been sweetness and light since my return !   Which has just confirmed my thoughts that Men are from Mars and Women from Venus, and neither will ever fully understand each other.....   However, I am not convinced that this situation will not recur in the future, so I will be armed with the knowledge that has been offered to me on this thread.  Many thanks for your input.

[KhaoYai]

1 hour ago, AlbionBob said:

However, I am not convinced that this situation will not recur in the future.

So, why not take the opportunity to sort out your assets now, then you're prepared for the next time.  I'd take her to look at a house or 2 then say you want to buy one, get the condo on the market and get rid (if you can).

[AlbionBob]

Thanks for the suggestion - definitely worth considering, although I am sure that she would smell a rat and demand half the proceeds  !!   I would then presumably have to get legal assistance to prove that it is 100% mine.  In any event, I am going to seek local lawyers advise for confirmation of her entitlement (if any).  Will post the outcome in due course.

[somtumwrong]

On 6/27/2018 at 8:24 PM, AlbionBob said:

Thanks for the suggestion - definitely worth considering, although I am sure that she would smell a rat and demand half the proceeds  !!   I would then presumably have to get legal assistance to prove that it is 100% mine.  In any event, I am going to seek local lawyers advise for confirmation of her entitlement (if any).  Will post the outcome in due course.

Nah, just tell her that 'your friend' bought a house close to Pattaya. 'Can we hon go have a look at that area?', walk around some village, and let HER get the idea, and then you reluctantly calculate how much on top you need to invest. She sees that you will bring another 2M to Thailand, and you reluctantly agree to sell the condo.

 

'Does it really have to be in your name hon?' blah blah