Thais and English: Stop the rote learning, be brave to speak, get better jobs and be happy!

[AntDee]

2 hours ago, timkeen08 said:

In my village many say either "rohn", "hohn", or "lohn".   Wherever I am in Thailand, I always respond with "crabp, rohn maak maak" like I was taught in Thai class at our Temple in Atlanta, a very strict teacher when it comes to pronunciation and tone.  It seems to always work well.  I usually get a thumbs up and a smile or "dee maak" regardless of which way they said it to me.  It makes no difference here.  They are just happy that I'm responding in their language.  Some do say to me "hot, wery wery hot".  I never correct them and they never ask.  I always respond to them back in Thai.  However, I have developed my own transliteration method that is simple and works well for me when trying to read, remember, or sound out Thai words.  It will make no sense to anyone else because they are stuck in one of the many transliteration methods already in use that seem inadequate to me.  I hope I will eventually read and speak Thai without the need of transliteration.  Most transliteration methods are phonetically insufficient and confusing since everyone uses a different one.  I just made my own and I don't have to remember it, no confusion.

Agree, and it's obvious you've studied thoroughly. 

 

Thai does need a functioning transliteration system. And then everyone needs to use it. At present, we get 3 or 4 English spellings for Thai words sometimes. 

 

Chidlom Chitlom 

Asok Asoke

Morchit Mochit 

Saladaeng Saladang

Somtum Somtom Somtam

[helloagain]

On 6/15/2018 at 11:27 AM, stanleycoin said:

wot, r  u on about m8. 

exactly

[helloagain]

I am English & for me Thai's are taught English the totally wrong way in the first place.

 

Until you are 10 or 11 at school you should be taught how to say the word & to spell phonetically. Then when you are 11 or 12 then be taught how to write English properly. How many times do you go into Homebase, Robinson or Tescos & they can't understand you but they can read it or write it. I do understand when they go home nobody at home can can carry it on. Our Thai Nephew stays in our studio next door to my Thai Wife & I, he has food with us most days & he has his freedom. But I tell my wife on speak English to him in our home that way we are helping him.

 

2days after coming to stay with us after his Father died I found him a job. Our Nephew is 19 years old, he gets 15,000 a month & only works 42 hours a week & not 60 hours a week like normal Thai's do, that is well ok for his age until he decides what he really wants to do or the Army will stuff him up next year for 2 years. 

 

Somebody else on this posting wrote.......... wot, r  u on about m8 & I agree with them phonetically first. For the record its computer not computeeerrrrrr

[timkeen08]

36 minutes ago, AntDee said:

Agree, and it's obvious you've studied thoroughly. 

 

Thai does need a functioning transliteration system. And then everyone needs to use it. At present, we get 3 or 4 English spellings for Thai words sometimes. 

 

Chidlom Chitlom  

Asok Asoke

Morchit Mochit 

Saladaeng Saladang

Somtum Somtom Somtam

And also different spellings for the same town or temple while driving down the road.

 

In class I got tired of seeing two "oo"s together in two transliterated words written by the teacher and hearing her say two different sounding oo's.  A quick example of my method - if it sounds like eat I use an upper case "E" - if it sounds like let I use a lower case "e" and so on. I double the aa when they are longer sounding, one a if it's normal, and a: as in ja: for cut off ending vowel sounds and so on.  It looks weird in the middle of a word or in a sentence but it is quicker and more obvious to me. I use different symbols on the keyboard to indicate the direction or level of the vowel or word tone the same as a few other methods.

 

I also use Word or Excel for the special superscript and subscript fonts available.  I can print out big and stick to the walls for reinforcement until I've got it.  A couple other students adopted my transliteration method.  What's good about it is each person can choose which symbols on the keyboard reminds them of the differences in tone or direction.  When I switch to Thai on my keyboard (clear stick on Thai symbols) and have to search for the Thai characters, this helps me to retain more while I'm typing and I am getting good at knowing where the most common characters are located.

 

The last six months of class were really boring and a waste of time.  Someone stepped in for our teacher and she had us learning Thai songs and reading Thai poetry and children stories.  Our teacher said she was not coming back.  No problem, it was time to early retired and we moved to Thailand.

[KiwiKiwi]

10 hours ago, Catoni said:

There are a few variations of “Chinese” ... Mandarin and Cantonese being but two. (I learned that by “rote” learning many years ago. There are some good things to say about “rote” learning. Being able to compose a sentence that shows some decent knowledge of correct English Grammar is another.)

   Which Chinese language are you talking about? 

 

 

Mandarin, but my opinion is mere hearsay, I think I know because that's what I was told by someone who I should have learned not to trust.

 

Agree your point about rote learning. I have no probnlem with 13*12=156. because when I was a lad I had to repeat the times tables ad nauseam.

 

But I do remember them and that puts me streets ahead of a Thai, with or without a calculator.

Edited June 16, 2018 by KiwiKiwi

[payanak]

On 6/15/2018 at 11:42 AM, rkidlad said:

she basically learnt off her own back.

 

Hopefully your wife has learned that "learnt" is not a word.

[rkidlad]

7 minutes ago, payanak said:

 

Hopefully your wife has learned that "learnt" is not a word.

I'm just gonna post this comment again so other readers can enjoy your ignorance. Welcome to TV. 

[faraday]

19 minutes ago, payanak said:

 

Hopefully your wife has learned that "learnt" is not a word.

 

Bit embarrassed now are you?

 

Think you got your fingers burnt....

[KiwiKiwi]

4 hours ago, AntDee said:

Agree, and it's obvious you've studied thoroughly. 

 

Thai does need a functioning transliteration system. And then everyone needs to use it. At present, we get 3 or 4 English spellings for Thai words sometimes. 

 

Chidlom Chitlom 

Asok Asoke

Morchit Mochit 

Saladaeng Saladang

Somtum Somtom Somtam

 

The Thai language suffers from one of the same malaises that Thais suffer from, and that is to adopy whatever fashion flies within their radar range. Hence 2 years ago, I watched with interest the spread on Thai News channels. of a pronounced tendency to roll their 'r's. Sounded ridiculous, not sure if that feateutred in the past of not. Then cam the word Boriwehn, which one weather presenter repeats endlessly in his homilies.

 

I recall when learning Thai, that I asked my (then) hiso wife (please God turn her favourite cotton socks to fishhooks), why she varied the Thai greeting according to who was on the phone. I observed this at close quarters; sometimes she would say  'Sawatdee Ka' (which I understood to be the correct version), sometimes 'Jawatdee Ja', and sometimes though rarely, 'Kawatdee Ka"; also quite often (and annoyingly) 'Hawatdee Ha' with the 'H' pronounced gutteral as in the Scottish 'Loch'

 

I did ask the cow (oops, I mean lovely lady) about it once, and was treated to a fine silence on the matter, which I now recognise meant that she did not want to lose face by saying it was fashion-driven, but had no better answer rattling around in her tiny ego-driven brain.

 

Strange brew these Thais, and strangest of all is the 'hiso' Thai - as fine a species as could (and should) adorn the endangered species list if ever there was one.

 

By the way, I would go for the first option on item numbers 1 to 4 on your list, and the last option on item number 5. For what that's worth, which is the square root of sod all.

Edited June 16, 2018 by KiwiKiwi

[Jonah Tenner]

1 hour ago, payanak said:

 

Hopefully your wife has learned that "learnt" is not a word.

‘Learnt’ or ‘learned’?

These are alternative forms of the past tense and past participle of the verb learn. Both are acceptable, but learned is often used in both British English and American English, while learnt is much more common in British English than in American English.

 

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/usage/learnt-vs-learned

 

[Eligius]

11 minutes ago, Jonah Tenner said:

‘Learnt’ or ‘learned’?

These are alternative forms of the past tense and past participle of the verb learn. Both are acceptable, but learned is often used in both British English and American English, while learnt is much more common in British English than in American English.

 

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/usage/learnt-vs-learned

 

Yes. It is the same with 'dreamed' and 'dreamt'; both are correct.

 

It is surprising how few native speakers really are masters of their own language's grammar. One must be very careful when criticising others' grammatical solecisms to ensure that one's own grammar is in fine form!

[brewsterbudgen]

Yes. It is the same with 'dreamed' and 'dreamt'; both are correct.
 
It is surprising how few native speakers really are masters of their own language's grammar. One must be very careful when criticising others' grammatical solecisms to ensure that one's own grammar is in fine form!

I think some leeway can be given to Americans... [emoji1]

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[faraday]

2 hours ago, KiwiKiwi said:

 

The Thai language suffers from one of the same malaises that Thais suffer from, and that is to adopy whatever fashion flies within their radar range. Hence 2 years ago, I watched with interest the spread on Thai News channels. of a pronounced tendency to roll their 'r's. Sounded ridiculous, not sure if that feateutred in the past of not. Then cam the word Boriwehn, which one weather presenter repeats endlessly in his homilies.

 

I recall when learning Thai, that I asked my (then) hiso wife (please God turn her favourite cotton socks to fishhooks), why she varied the Thai greeting according to who was on the phone. I observed this at close quarters; sometimes she would say  'Sawatdee Ka' (which I understood to be the correct version), sometimes 'Jawatdee Ja', and sometimes though rarely, 'Kawatdee Ka"; also quite often (and annoyingly) 'Hawatdee Ha' with the 'H' pronounced gutteral as in the Scottish 'Loch'

 

I did ask the cow (oops, I mean lovely lady) about it once, and was treated to a fine silence on the matter, which I now recognise meant that she did not want to lose face by saying it was fashion-driven, but had no better answer rattling around in her tiny ego-driven brain.

 

Strange brew these Thais, and strangest of all is the 'hiso' Thai - as fine a species as could (and should) adorn the endangered species list if ever there was one.

 

By the way, I would go for the first option on item numbers 1 to 4 on your list, and the last option on item number 5. For what that's worth, which is the square root of sod all.

You really are odd.

 

You seemingly chastise Thai people for producing some words a little differently from how you think they should.

 

Of course, in Farangistan, everyone speaks perfectly, by your reasoning.

 

 

[DrTuner]

Ah, grammar. It should be studied extensively at special universities. The kind where you herd them into the basement and throw away the key. Toss them a scrabble game once in a while to keep them happy bickering  with each other. I propose such universities should be in England, the hub of grammar nazis.

[Kieran00001]

5 hours ago, payanak said:

 

Hopefully your wife has learned that "learnt" is not a word.

Quote

I had a mind once to try if he had any hankering inclination to his own country again; and having learnt him English so well, that he could answer me almost any questions, I asked him, whether the nation that he belonged to never conquered in battle? At which he smiled, and said, "Yes, yes, we always fight the better;" that is, he meant, always get the better in fight; and so we began the following discourse. "You always fight the better!" said I: "how came you to be taken prisoner then, Friday?"

1719: De Foe Crusoe

 

[KiwiKiwi]

2 hours ago, faraday said:

You really are odd.

 

You seemingly chastise Thai people for producing some words a little differently from how you think they should.

 

Of course, in Farangistan, everyone speaks perfectly, by your reasoning.

 

 

 

"You really are odd."

 

I can relate to that, I can be very strange. Doesn't make me wrong though.

 

"You seemingly chastise Thai people for producing some words a little differently from how you think they should."

 

Not at all, I merely refer to their over-zealous attention to fashion. I think that long ago, The Kinks recorded a song about someone who did that (showing my age here). An English someone as it happens. Goes to show that stupidity is ubiquitous I suppose, but I'm taking about degree here. Thais are awful slaves to fashion, which is infantile. Or are you saying they're not or it isn't?

 

The key distorting words/phrases in your criticism seem to be 'seemingly', 'some' 'little' and 'you think'. All those words/pgrases in context tend to minimise and trivialise what I actually said. It's a common deceit, but no less miserable for being common.

 

"Of course, in Farangistan, everyone speaks perfectly, by your reasoning." I doubt you can point to where I said that. Trying to put words in my mouth does not lend credibility to an argument, rather the reverse, it's called a 'straw man' argument.

 

Good try though, it might have worked. Using the synthetic word 'Farangistan' exposes the fawning nature of the post too I suspect, so I guess you'd win the quinella.

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by KiwiKiwi

[KiwiKiwi]

1 hour ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

 

Ouch. Not however to detract from the incorrectness of the word in contemporaneous use. I not the point though, English as a language continuously evolves, which must make it very hard to master if you're not a native speaker.

 

Take the use of the word 'gay' for example... New meaning entirely these days I'm sure you'll agree.

 

Not all change is progress.

Edited June 16, 2018 by KiwiKiwi

[NetJunkie]

16 hours ago, Dumbastheycome said:

Rote  learning  is suitable  for the alphabet but limited for  much more than that.

 

How do you learn vocabulary then?

[Eligius]

4 minutes ago, NetJunkie said:

 

How do you learn vocabulary then?

You are right: the use of memory in learning is tremendously important.

But 'rote learning' implies a mere copying and parroting of information without really digesting and understanding it. It is such 'rote learning' that many of us are opposed to.

[Kieran00001]

2 hours ago, NetJunkie said:

 

How do you learn vocabulary then?

 

With meaningful learning, no matter how many times you say a word without anything to relate it to there will be no understanding.  Rote learning works with the alphabet and numbers because you can relate the sounds to the graphemes so there is something meaningful being learned.

[NetJunkie]

5 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

With meaningful learning, no matter how many times you say a word without anything to relate it to there will be no understanding.  Rote learning works with the alphabet and numbers because you can relate the sounds to the graphemes so there is something meaningful being learned.

 

That works for usage, what about pronunciation and spelling?

[Kieran00001]

9 hours ago, KiwiKiwi said:

 

"You really are odd."

 

I can relate to that, I can be very strange. Doesn't make me wrong though.

 

"You seemingly chastise Thai people for producing some words a little differently from how you think they should."

 

Not at all, I merely refer to their over-zealous attention to fashion. I think that long ago, The Kinks recorded a song about someone who did that (showing my age here). An English someone as it happens. Goes to show that stupidity is ubiquitous I suppose, but I'm taking about degree here. Thais are awful slaves to fashion, which is infantile. Or are you saying they're not or it isn't?

 

The key distorting words/phrases in your criticism seem to be 'seemingly', 'some' 'little' and 'you think'. All those words/pgrases in context tend to minimise and trivialise what I actually said. It's a common deceit, but no less miserable for being common.

 

"Of course, in Farangistan, everyone speaks perfectly, by your reasoning." I doubt you can point to where I said that. Trying to put words in my mouth does not lend credibility to an argument, rather the reverse, it's called a 'straw man' argument.

 

Good try though, it might have worked. Using the synthetic word 'Farangistan' exposes the fawning nature of the post too I suspect, so I guess you'd win the quinella.

 

 

They way we alter greetings is not all about fashion, it is largely about changing our register to suit the occasion, there are times we want to sound more formal and others when we want to be informal, this is like English speakers using hello, hi and hey, it's not so much about fashion as choosing greetings that fit the person we are greeting and the situation.

 

And do you actually find Thai people anything in particular?  I find them such a varied bunch, and so many are not in the slightest bit concerned by appearances, I am struggling to see where you are coming from.

[Kieran00001]

18 minutes ago, NetJunkie said:

 

That works for usage, what about pronunciation and spelling?

 

We tend to learn spelling through decoding, but there are the words that cannot be decoded that can only be learned by rote.  As for pronouciation, we learn in several ways, we learn by rote through nursery rhymes when young, but as we get older, or if we learn a second language later in life, we tend to learn in cognitive ways, we make association with pronouciations we already know, we are demonstrated and imitate new lip movements, we slow down and mentally rehearse pronouciations, mere 'repeat after me' is something we do little of after the age of 7.

[NetJunkie]

3 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

mere 'repeat after me' is something we do little of after the age of 7.

 

Please tell me you are joking. 

[dinsdale]

On 6/15/2018 at 11:08 AM, Orton Rd said:

They need to forget the boring and unnecessary grammar lessons, even I don't know what half of it means.

You right. I teacher and me think grammar are not important.?

[Kieran00001]

3 minutes ago, NetJunkie said:

 

Please tell me you are joking. 

 

I am not joking, we continue to do it, but little after the age of 7, whereas it is all day long until that age.

[KiwiKiwi]

19 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

They way we alter greetings is not all about fashion, it is largely about changing our register to suit the occasion, there are times we want to sound more formal and others when we want to be informal, this is like English speakers using hello, hi and hey, it's not so much about fashion as choosing greetings that fit the person we are greeting and the situation.

 

And do you actually find Thai people anything in particular?  I find them such a varied bunch, and so many are not in the slightest bit concerned by appearances, I am struggling to see where you are coming from.

 

"They way we alter greetings is not all about fashion, it is largely about changing our register to suit the occasion, there are times we want to sound more formal and others when we want to be informal, this is like English speakers using hello, hi and hey, it's not so much about fashion as choosing greetings that fit the person we are greeting and the situation"

 

I don't think so. We greet people (as you rightly infer) in order to establish commonality with them, belonging - which is exactly the role of fashion in society. I recall various modes of greeting fashionable in the late 1960s/early 1970's. All gone now, but it was all about fashion and belonging then and now. Same as the 'socisl medie trends - all about belonging (fashion).

 

"And do you actually find Thai people anything in particular?  I find them such a varied bunch, and so many are not in the slightest bit concerned by appearances, I am struggling to see where you are coming from."

 

Then our experience differs, according to my observation, the Thai is supremely concerned with appearances, and this drives the Thai into most of the behaviours that are observable. If his is not your experience then good luck, because it really is a most debilitating and demeaning trait. I imagine if you took a poll here, the majority experience would be that Thais are almost exclusivle concerned with face (appearances).

 

Still, you might be right I suppose, though I don't think you are. As to where I'm coming from, well, I was responding to another person's post as I recall.  It's no secret that I do not regard Thais highly, this is a professional judgement, which some folk find distasteful. I imagine I'm on a good few 'ignore' lists for that reason.Good job I don't care really...

 

 

[KiwiKiwi]

10 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

We tend to learn spelling through decoding, but there are the words that cannot be decoded that can only be learned by rote.  As for pronouciation, we learn in several ways, we learn by rote through nursery rhymes when young, but as we get older, or if we learn a second language later in life, we tend to learn in cognitive ways, we make association with pronouciations we already know, we are demonstrated and imitate new lip movements, we slow down and mentally rehearse pronouciations, mere 'repeat after me' is something we do little of after the age of 7.

I would have put it a little later - say 10 years old - pre-pubescent. The onset of puberty brings manifold changes to the psycholofy of a kid - learning by rote fades and reasoning comes to the fore - over time of course, this is a process which can take years.

[KiwiKiwi]

8 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

You right. I teacher and me think grammar are not important.?

 

Right...

[Kieran00001]

2 minutes ago, KiwiKiwi said:

 

"They way we alter greetings is not all about fashion, it is largely about changing our register to suit the occasion, there are times we want to sound more formal and others when we want to be informal, this is like English speakers using hello, hi and hey, it's not so much about fashion as choosing greetings that fit the person we are greeting and the situation"

 

I don't think so. We greet people (as you rightly infer) in order to establish commonality with them, belonging - which is exactly the role of fashion in society. I recall various modes of greeting fashionable in the late 1960s/early 1970's. All gone now, but it was all about fashion and belonging then and now. Same as the 'socisl medie trends - all about belonging (fashion).

 

"And do you actually find Thai people anything in particular?  I find them such a varied bunch, and so many are not in the slightest bit concerned by appearances, I am struggling to see where you are coming from."

 

Then our experience differs, according to my observation, the Thai is supremely concerned with appearances, and this drives the Thai into most of the behaviours that are observable. If his is not your experience then good luck, because it really is a most debilitating and demeaning trait. I imagine if you took a poll here, the majority experience would be that Thais are almost exclusivle concerned with face (appearances).

 

Still, you might be right I suppose, though I don't think you are. As to where I'm coming from, well, I was responding to another person's post as I recall.  It's no secret that I do not regard Thais highly, this is a professional judgement, which some folk find distasteful. I imagine I'm on a good few 'ignore' lists for that reason.Good job I don't care really...

 

 

 

Consider how we moved, in the UK, from the various stipulated forms of formal address into the all encompassing good day, that was not out of fashion but out of a purposeful attempt to end the class system.  This lead to people having greater freedoms of expression in their speech, sure there are fashion driven greetings, but there are also those just intended to sound extra friendly, those intended to sound a bit funny and those intended to sound very serious, there is more to being in control of your voices register than fashion. And with regard to your generalisations in Thai's, you appear to be mixing fashion with ego.