Punishment for students

[joninisaan]

20 hours ago, stubuzz said:

If you haven't written your own classroom management plan-aka (discipline management plan) and discussed it with the students, ask the school for theirs. If they don't know what it is, or don't have one then you know things will never change.

I have a classroom management plan I drew up myself but was just looking at alternatives for when certain students break rules repeatedly and my punishments are of little concern to the student and don't want to use corporal punishment.

I know things will never change here in Thailand as to why I was looking for alternative punishments other foreign teachers use.

[joninisaan]

20 hours ago, scorecard said:

I do that at the start of every course and very quickly I get the looks on faces 'the monster has arrived'. I don't care I still state the rules.

 

A different slant. Over the years I'd had a few problem students eventually come to me and say, I used to get angry with you for telling me to be quiet and listen and (in some cases) make me sit away from my friends or sit at the front. Now I ned to thank you because after you really push I'm now getting better grades.

 

My Dad was a principal (director) at several schools in Hawaii about 60 years ago when they would use the big wooden paddle. After my Dad retired, there was an incident with a BIG Samoan guy who came up to my Dad and asked my Dad if he was a principal at ............. high school which my Dad said "yes" and asked who are you and braced himself as the BIG Samoan guy looked like he wanted to rip my dads head off. After a few seconds, a big smile grew on the Samoan guys face and he offered his hand to my Dad saying "I'd like to thank you for punishing me with the paddle back in ............high school as those punishments set me straight". I was about 7 years old at that time I can clearly remember every second of that incident and thinking to myself at first that my Dads going to get murdered right in front of me.

[joninisaan]

18 hours ago, ozmeldo said:

Change schools - problem solved.

 

I will be moving to the city where my wife is a teacher at the end of this term but I have accepted the fact that the problem on how to punish students or how difficult all teachers have it disciplining students here in Thailand no matter what school I change to.

[joninisaan]

18 hours ago, otherstuff1957 said:

When I first started teaching in Thailand, almost 15 years ago, corporal punishment was common and almost all of the Thai teachers carried a bamboo "pointer" to class.  Things have changed and I have not seen an example of corporal punishment in over 10 years.

 

IMHO using physical punishment is not effective.  It teaches the kids that they must obey when there is a stick pointed at them.  They, of course, immediately understand that the opposite is also true....  no stick means that they don't have to obey!  Hitting kids to make them behave is not only counter-productive, it also teaches them that good behavior is something that is imposed upon them from outside, rather than something that they do of their own accord.

 

Unfortunately, Thai teachers have, by and large, replaced corporal punishment to nothing at all!  Kids who misbehave usually get nothing more than a long lecture that they can just tune out until it is over.

 

Disciplining students, especially students who are old enough to realize that they live in "the land of no consequences" (as I sometimes consider Thailand to be) is a difficult and lengthy process.  Given large class sizes and the fact that many Thai teachers will unconsciously or purposely undermine your efforts, it is an almost impossible task.

 

I don't have any answers for those of you in the Government School trenches,  I gave up and moved to a private school where the students understand and speak English and the class sizes are usually less than 20 students.  Even there, discipline can be a challenge, but being consistent and firm and having a good relationship with the Thai teachers does help a lot.

The points you made are dead on correct! I didn't realized too that private schools are different in terms of classroom structure, etc. I think Ill be leaning towards changing to a private school if possible to my next school to teach at. Thanks for your response to my OP.

[scorecard]

36 minutes ago, joninisaan said:

The points you made are dead on correct! I didn't realized too that private schools are different in terms of classroom structure, etc. I think Ill be leaning towards changing to a private school if possible to my next school to teach at. Thanks for your response to my OP.

 

Good points, another item to consider, there's a range of private schools, some are genuine and good quality, some are money machines etc.

 

There's also a few private schools which are set up to deliberately attract very rich hi-so families, beautiful buildings, class rooms , libraries, all sorts of high tech equipment etc. 

 

I have a Thai relative, moved home to Chiang Mai, fully qualified teacher in both Thailand and Singapore, and experienced in both countries. Her credentials quickly got her a job at a specific private school which deliberately caters for hi-so kids, the school insists that teachers only speak English to inspress the parents, class size policy max 15 kids at all levels, but in reality only 5 or 6 kids in each class.

 

She quickly discovered that the majority of the kids (age range 5 to 18 years old), very small classes, are uncontrollable, try to punish the, insist they stop talking etc., is totally ignored often with a mouth full of abuse from the kids.

 

Attempts at discussion with and asking for action by the parents is 'tread very carefully'. My relative encountered abrupt 'orders' from parents, also parents walking in and telling the teacher to change the subject. Asking for guidance and support from the school owner also 'tread carefully'. 

 

My relative lasted about 3 weeks and finally realized  'it's not going to change' and she resigned.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2018 by scorecard

[Scott]

I taught for quite a few years and then had an administrative role for many more years, including dealing with unruly students.    We had some classes that were significantly worse than others and I usually got assigned them.    Here's how I used to handle discipline issues:

 

First try to make the punishment fit the crime, so to speak.   I was reasonably lenient on students who were not paying attention, doing their work etc, but who did not interfere with other students' learning.   You cannot make students learn, but you can provide an environment that is conducive to those that want to.

 

Second, for students who are mildly disruptive -- talking to the kid next to them etc., I would move them to the front or at least away from their partner in crime.   All they got to bring in the temporary move was their book, notebook -- nothing else to distract them.  

 

For those who were massively distracting to the other class the options I used was to have them stand at the back of the classroom with their book.   If they were too disruptive, then they stood in the doorway, where they could see the board and hear the lesson, but not interact with their peers.    When you have a group of boys who are acting up (and they do like to join in), don't put them all at the back together -- maybe one in each corner of the room.   Otherwise, it's like recess for them.

 

Once in a while there was a student who had to be completely removed -- usually there was an external source to their behavior, such as Attention Deficit Disorder or some other physical/psychological problem.   Sometimes, it's just teenage angst gone awry -- a failed relationship, an ongoing spat with another student, etc.. 

 

I also didn't approach it as discipline/punishment per se, but simply trying to structurally handle situations which were problematic.   In short, don't get angry, just let them know that they have to pay attention and this is how it will happen.  

 

Once it appears that they have settled down and focused, I have them sit down (if it is a group of misbehaving students, I do it one at a time).  

 

Generally, if there is a lot of misbehavior, then I take a closer look at what I AM DOING.  Sometimes, I am going way over their heads or way under.    Once in a while, it is something new, not particularly interesting and I let them know that I need them to pay close attention and bear with me on the subject.  

 

Keep your focus on the lesson and deal with disruptions as quickly and easily as possible.   With discipline, remember you may have to lose a few battles, but you want to win the war.  

[Rhys]

3 hours ago, Scott said:

I taught for quite a few years and then had an administrative role for many more years, including dealing with unruly students.    We had some classes that were significantly worse than others and I usually got assigned them.    Here's how I used to handle discipline issues:

 

First try to make the punishment fit the crime, so to speak.   I was reasonably lenient on students who were not paying attention, doing their work etc, but who did not interfere with other students' learning.   You cannot make students learn, but you can provide an environment that is conducive to those that want to.

 

Second, for students who are mildly disruptive -- talking to the kid next to them etc., I would move them to the front or at least away from their partner in crime.   All they got to bring in the temporary move was their book, notebook -- nothing else to distract them.  

 

For those who were massively distracting to the other class the options I used was to have them stand at the back of the classroom with their book.   If they were too disruptive, then they stood in the doorway, where they could see the board and hear the lesson, but not interact with their peers.    When you have a group of boys who are acting up (and they do like to join in), don't put them all at the back together -- maybe one in each corner of the room.   Otherwise, it's like recess for them.

 

Once in a while there was a student who had to be completely removed -- usually there was an external source to their behavior, such as Attention Deficit Disorder or some other physical/psychological problem.   Sometimes, it's just teenage angst gone awry -- a failed relationship, an ongoing spat with another student, etc.. 

 

I also didn't approach it as discipline/punishment per se, but simply trying to structurally handle situations which were problematic.   In short, don't get angry, just let them know that they have to pay attention and this is how it will happen.  

 

Once it appears that they have settled down and focused, I have them sit down (if it is a group of misbehaving students, I do it one at a time).  

 

Generally, if there is a lot of misbehavior, then I take a closer look at what I AM DOING.  Sometimes, I am going way over their heads or way under.    Once in a while, it is something new, not particularly interesting and I let them know that I need them to pay close attention and bear with me on the subject.  

 

Keep your focus on the lesson and deal with disruptions as quickly and easily as possible.   With discipline, remember you may have to lose a few battles, but you want to win the war.  

..and when they are university students, generally the procedures are in place, only to be unenforced and forgotten.

[ozmeldo]

On 6/21/2018 at 1:08 PM, joninisaan said:

I will be moving to the city where my wife is a teacher at the end of this term but I have accepted the fact that the problem on how to punish students or how difficult all teachers have it disciplining students here in Thailand no matter what school I change to.

I have worked at four schools and have had approximately 1500 students. The only kids that were a serious issue we're the M2/11, M2/13 throwaway classes I was given despite coming in as an EP teacher in that school. If I did not have four books and five classes, I could have done something with them. The book sucked which there was no excuse for that school. I feel badly I did not have the time and energy to develop lessons for their level, I'd come in that year having taught only one term before. I accept some blame here, the Thai teachers thought little of them and they were an unruly lot no doubt on quota from the local area.

 

The other 1420 students with minor exception have been great - spectacular on balance.

 

Assuming you have classroom management skills and the respect of your students, you need to find the better schools and programs and accept nothing less.

Edited June 23, 2018 by ozmeldo

[ozmeldo]

It's not about public vs private schools. The best schools, the most in demand outside IB, International (real ones) are 2-3 bilinguals ate PUBLIC schools + then a tiny few Christian, a few more Catholic schools then there are public's or what we might term public/private's eg Pathumwan Demonstration. These are the elite secondary schools. 

 

Who wants to go to a private university in Thailand? No decent student.

 

The top ten secondary schools are essentially all or nearly all public.

 

When kids take a call in class, I point them outside. Video games, one warning, I'll take their phone for 24 hours. Loud talking, I try to mitigate. Sleeping, sometimes I take them, sometimes not. Depends, I know many are up late studying and up early to get to school.

 

Ill pull them into the activity and disallow other work to be done in class.

 

Connecting personally with students goes a long way. If they respect you, that might not get you to the goal line, but it will take you far.

Edited June 23, 2018 by ozmeldo

[ozmeldo]

On 6/21/2018 at 1:08 PM, joninisaan said:

I will be moving to the city

If the city means Bangkok,  you're on track. If you are just going to a larger provincial city or even capital, it will be much the same. Good schools attract good Thai teachers as well.

 

The cream of the kids are sent to Bangkok to live with relatives and attend schools there.

 

The only people that actually want to be in the provs are the farang. Nothing good happens there, it produces nothing aside from agriculture.

 

Outside Khon Kaen and Chaing Mai Universities and perhaps half dozen at the most secondaries, there's no learning going on upcountry. None of those kids are entering top 5 universities in masse and mostly on quota.

 

Edited June 23, 2018 by ozmeldo

[jenny2017]

On 6/20/2018 at 8:10 AM, scorecard said:

It is specifically illegal in Thailand for teachers, any teachers to hit children with a hand , a stick, a cane, or whatever.

 

But do Thai teachers still use sticks etc., to hit kids? Yes.

I've seen Thai teachers doing worse things. OP, so more upset you'll get, so more troubles you'll have.

 

  Show them that you're the boss in the classroom and keep your lessons interesting. If they talk/listen to music, etc.. while you are in class, just stop and look at them. There's always a sort of a "leading student" in each class who'll help you to calm them down.

 

  A good trick is to tell them that you'll take them to the principles office if they continue to behave badly. I never did it, but it helped many times. At least for some minutes...

 

   

[jenny2017]

7 minutes ago, ozmeldo said:

If the city means Bangkok,  you're on track. If you are just going to a larger provincial city or even capital, it will be much the same. Good schools attract good Thai teachers as well.

 

The cream of the kids are sent to Bangkok to live with relatives and attend schools there.

 

The only people that actually want to be in the provs are the farang. Nothing good happens there, it produces nothing aside from agriculture.

 

Outside Khon Kaen and Chaing Mai Universities and perhaps half dozen at the most secondaries, there's no learning going on upcountry. None of those kids are entering top 5 universities in masse and mostly on quota.

 

Not really true. Many students who study in our IEP programme will study at Chula and other great universities. 

[ozmeldo]

1 minute ago, jenny2017 said:

Not really true. Many students who study in our IEP programme will study at Chula and other great universities. 

Perhaps you're teaching at one if the better schools? First, I'd love to know the school. Second I'd be interested if they were on provincial quota. Finally, I would love to know the number of 'many' in the graduating class that end up in top faculties at Chulalongkorn.

 

How many are in first round or second round? Not on provincial quota but from a special skill or ability. G12 onet 90%+ consistent over the entire grade? Intl programs and study abroad SATs 1400+? Medicine, Engineering, etc.

 

[jenny2017]

12 minutes ago, ozmeldo said:

Perhaps you're teaching at one if the better schools? First, I'd love to know the school. Second I'd be interested if they were on provincial quota. Finally, I would love to know the number of 'many' in the graduating class that end up in top faculties at Chulalongkorn.

 

How many are in first round or second round? Not on provincial quota but from a special skill or ability. G12 onet 90%+ consistent over the entire grade? Intl programs and study abroad SATs 1400+? Medicine, Engineering, etc.

 

The school is the biggest high school in a city of the lower northeast with more than 4,000 students. I can't give you exact numbers on how many finally make it to Chula and other good universities.

The school has a science section and produces quite a lot of good students compared to other high schools upcountry. 

 Not only Bangkok has good universities, I believe that Khon Kaen's Faculty of Medicine is a good and affordable university for those who'd like to work in the medical sector. 

  Not all top-tier universities in Bangkok are as good as their brochure's telling people. 

 

[joninisaan]

On 6/24/2018 at 4:06 AM, jenny2017 said:

I've seen Thai teachers doing worse things. OP, so more upset you'll get, so more troubles you'll have.

 

  Show them that you're the boss in the classroom and keep your lessons interesting. If they talk/listen to music, etc.. while you are in class, just stop and look at them. There's always a sort of a "leading student" in each class who'll help you to calm them down.

 

  A good trick is to tell them that you'll take them to the principles office if they continue to behave badly. I never did it, but it helped many times. At least for some minutes...

 

   

Thanks for the advice. Ill use especially the "stop and look at them" one. I like that one because the misbehaving student will probably not sure what you're really thinking or going to do which makes it work.

[jenny2017]

1 minute ago, joninisaan said:

Thanks for the advice. Ill use especially the "stop and look at them" one. I like that one because the misbehaving student will probably not sure what you're really thinking or going to do which makes it work.

If you've got the troublemakers on your side, you control the class. 

 

   Once they find out that you're not an idiot, they'll change their strange behavior. It's like a power play. My Karma got me and all I did to my teachers came back to me now.

Make fun of them if they misbehave that the others start laughing. That's also very helpful, but never call a student a buffalo. The worst word to call a Thai. 

   

[joninisaan]

On 6/24/2018 at 3:44 AM, ozmeldo said:

It's not about public vs private schools. The best schools, the most in demand outside IB, International (real ones) are 2-3 bilinguals ate PUBLIC schools + then a tiny few Christian, a few more Catholic schools then there are public's or what we might term public/private's eg Pathumwan Demonstration. These are the elite secondary schools. 

 

Who wants to go to a private university in Thailand? No decent student.

 

The top ten secondary schools are essentially all or nearly all public.

 

When kids take a call in class, I point them outside. Video games, one warning, I'll take their phone for 24 hours. Loud talking, I try to mitigate. Sleeping, sometimes I take them, sometimes not. Depends, I know many are up late studying and up early to get to school.

 

Ill pull them into the activity and disallow other work to be done in class.

 

Connecting personally with students goes a long way. If they respect you, that might not get you to the goal line, but it will take you far.

         Thanks for ideas that you use. I do take away their phones but give them back when class is over as my Thai wife who is also a teacher said that now some Thai teachers are starting to be discouraged from taking students phones as some parents complain that its considered stealing even though teachers give the phone back. May not be a case for me but I don't want to take chances.

         Back in my home town Hawaii where I was working in a high school, I would work with the worst students in school (drug users, in and out of detention homes, behavior disorders, etc) but I NEVER had problems with any student as I would give them some respect in which they would give me respect back by not giving me a hard time and being honest with me. But here, I here from a lot of different foreign teachers that here in Thailand, if you "give them an inch, they'll take a mile". 

[SlyAnimal]

Generally I go over the classroom rules at the start of the term, and explain the punishments at the same time.  I find that provided the students know ahead of time what the punishment will be, they will accept the punishment without complaint, and after 1 student in the class has been punished the others will realize that I was being serious.

I only have a pretty narrow spectrum of what I punish though, as I teach in the countryside so it's all about taking small steps.

Cellphone use in class (Unless it's a dictionary) - I'll confiscate their phone for a week.  I don't particularly like looking after phones though, so for the first student to get caught I'll make a song and dance about taking it for a week, then at the end of class will do a coin flip with the student, with heads (the king) returning their phone to them (And I deliberately try to manipulate the toss to ensure I lose).  I also sometimes give the students the choice of 700 lines (100 per day) to get their phone back straight away (For which they are very grateful, since they'd be social outcasts if they couldn't play RoV lol).

Copying homework - For copying homework I give all students involved 500 lines (So both the student copying, and the student who's book they borrowed).

 

Cheating/"Helping" - For students that try to cheat on tests, or who "help" their friends during speaking tests (i.e. Students not being tested saying the answer to a question, just as they do during regular questions in class) I advise the students that they'll receive a minimum of 500 lines, and will also receive 0 on their test as well.  The 0s I usually relent on, and allow a retest or similar after making them sweat for a bit, but do it on a case by case basis.

 

Skipping class - My students need to attend 80%+ of their classes.  If they're excused I don't factor that in at all, but otherwise will fail them if they don't attend at least 80% of my classes.  I usually try to calculate this well before I need to submit their grades, so that I can assign them special homework early.  I give them 500 lines for each day that they were absent, if they can complete their lines before x date (usually a date prior to when I need to submit my grades), then I will give them a 50% "discount" on their lines, and the grade that they deserved (rather than 0 or ม.ส. ).  I will also give them a second date, and if they complete their lines before then they can still have the 50% discount (But because their grade will have already been submitted as a fail, I can only change their grade back to a 1).  I also include an attendance section when calculating their grade, usually around 20%, from which I make deductions every time they are late or absent without a valid reason.

 

Failing tests - I usually don't punish students for poor performances in class.  However on tests that are a large contributor to a student's grade, I will give them the opportunity (Which is often compulsory) to test again with a similar test at lunch time.  When I do so, I will usually cap the maximum score of the re-test at 50% (And make students continue to test at lunch time each week until they can achieve 50%). 

Other - I also occasionally give lines to students that do something weird that I feel is inappropriate or rude e.g. I gave 3 girls 200 lines each because they took 20+ minutes in the toilet.

 

Incomplete lines - Students that are given special homework (lines), and don't complete them within 1 week, have the amount doubled.  When I first started doing this, some students mustn't have realized, and so had 200 lines (I wasn't as harsh then) turn into about 4000+ by the end of the term.  They didn't think it was funny anymore when I failed them and refused to change their grade until their work was completed.

But generally anything within the classroom itself I see as just general classroom management and so don't punish students for anything in class, aside from raising my voice or putting people on the spot via a question or similar.  Even when I do raise my voice etc, my goal is to keep the "approval" of the class, so only do so with fair warning (e.g. most of the class know when I'm about to yell, and enjoy seeing the shock/surprise on their friend's face when they get blasted) as I want to stop disruptive behaviour but not scare them too much.

Anywho, that's how I do things, I think that it works well but everyone has their own way of doing things, hope it's of some help.  I teach in the countryside, and it's 8 years since I first started at the school, so might have a bit more free reign than what some other teachers would e.g. I've heard some schools don't let you fail students, or even yell at students.  With limited experience elsewhere I don't know how flexible other school policies are, but I can definitely do both while still maintaining very positive reviews from the school/students, I just have to do it in the right way.

Edit:  Oh and just in hindsight, I should mention.  I do definitely feel that making it clear to students what the consequences of their actions are, BEFORE they break the rules, is really important.  I use what I feel are excessively harsh punishments for what are relatively minor infractions, this gives me a lot of leeway if I want to reduce a punishment.

Edited June 29, 2018 by SlyAnimal

[jenny2017]

12 minutes ago, SlyAnimal said:

Generally I go over the classroom rules at the start of the term, and explain the punishments at the same time.  I find that provided the students know ahead of time what the punishment will be, they will accept the punishment without complaint, and after 1 student in the class has been punished the others will realize that I was being serious.

I only have a pretty narrow spectrum of what I punish though, as I teach in the countryside so it's all about taking small steps.

Cellphone use in class (Unless it's a dictionary) - I'll confiscate their phone for a week.  I don't particularly like looking after phones though, so for the first student to get caught I'll make a song and dance about taking it for a week, then at the end of class will do a coin flip with the student, with heads (the king) returning their phone to them (And I deliberately try to manipulate the toss to ensure I lose).  I also sometimes give the students the choice of 700 lines (100 per day) to get their phone back straight away (For which they are very grateful, since they'd be social outcasts if they couldn't play RoV lol).

Copying homework - For copying homework I give all students involved 500 lines (So both the student copying, and the student who's book they borrowed).

 

Cheating/"Helping" - For students that try to cheat on tests, or who "help" their friends during speaking tests (i.e. Students not being tested saying the answer to a question, just as they do during regular questions in class) I advise the students that they'll receive a minimum of 500 lines, and will also receive 0 on their test as well.  The 0s I usually relent on, and allow a retest or similar after making them sweat for a bit, but do it on a case by case basis.

 

Skipping class - My students need to attend 80%+ of their classes.  If they're excused I don't factor that in at all, but otherwise will fail them if they don't attend at least 80% of my classes.  I usually try to calculate this well before I need to submit their grades, so that I can assign them special homework early.  I give them 500 lines for each day that they were absent, if they can complete their lines before x date (usually a date prior to when I need to submit my grades), then I will give them a 50% "discount" on their lines, and the grade that they deserved (rather than 0 or ม.ส. ).  I will also give them a second date, and if they complete their lines before then they can still have the 50% discount (But because their grade will have already been submitted as a fail, I can only change their grade back to a 1).  I also include an attendance section when calculating their grade, usually around 20%, from which I make deductions every time they are late or absent without a valid reason.

 

Failing tests - I usually don't punish students for poor performances in class.  However on tests that are a large contributor to a student's grade, I will give them the opportunity (Which is often compulsory) to test again with a similar test at lunch time.  When I do so, I will usually cap the maximum score of the re-test at 50% (And make students continue to test at lunch time each week until they can achieve 50%). 

Other - I also occasionally give lines to students that do something weird that I feel is inappropriate or rude e.g. I gave 3 girls 200 lines each because they took 20+ minutes in the toilet.

But generally anything within the classroom itself I see as just general classroom management and so don't punish students for anything in class, aside from raising my voice or putting people on the spot via a question or similar.  Even when I do raise my voice etc, my goal is to keep the "approval" of the class, so only do so with fair warning (e.g. most of the class know when I'm about to yell, and enjoy seeing the shock/surprise on their friend's face when they get blasted) as I want to stop disruptive behaviour but not scare them too much.

Anywho, that's how I do things, I think that it works well but everyone has their own way of doing things, hope it's of some help.  I teach in the countryside, and it's 8 years since I first started at the school, so might have a bit more free reign than what some other teachers would e.g. I've heard some schools don't let you fail students, or even yell at students.  With limited experience elsewhere I don't know how flexible other school policies are, but I can definitely do both while still maintaining very positive reviews from the school/students, I just have to do it in the right way.

Cellphone use in class (Unless it's a dictionary) - I'll confiscate their phone for a week

 

   My friend Lostineeesaan just told me that the rich parents of his students in the EP section would immediately grab his balls and make his voice a bit higher. But he wanted a gender change anyway, so no great loss. ?

 

  

Edited June 29, 2018 by jenny2017
Thanks for your great post!!!

[SlyAnimal]

1 minute ago, jenny2017 said:

Cellphone use in class (Unless it's a dictionary) - I'll confiscate their phone for a week

 

   My friend Lostineeesaan just told me that the rich parents of his students in the EP section would immediately grab his balls and make his voice a bit higher. But he wanted a gender change anyway, so no great loss. ?

 

  

I don't think I've ever had a parent complain.  I do let students take their sim-card out though, so that they can still call their parents etc if needed.

Thing is though, I usually don't even need to actually take it for a week.  Just saying I'll take the first one for a week, then quietly allowing a coin flip at the end of class to get it back, usually ensures that the rest of the class won't go near their phones in class.

 

If they do lose it for a week though, then they knew what the punishment was and if anything are maybe too ashamed to tell their parents (And I think a lot of parents would have little sympathy for them.  So many of the parents I've spoken to expect us, as teachers, to be making the tough calls).

But I really don't like having to look after their phones for a week.  As I know that if I were to somehow lose it, or break it, it'd cause a huge problem (Unlike when I confiscate mirrors from the ladyboys, who usually don't even bother to ask for them back lol).

[jenny2017]

22 minutes ago, SlyAnimal said:

I don't think I've ever had a parent complain.  I do let students take their sim-card out though, so that they can still call their parents etc if needed.

Thing is though, I usually don't even need to actually take it for a week.  Just saying I'll take the first one for a week, then quietly allowing a coin flip at the end of class to get it back, usually ensures that the rest of the class won't go near their phones in class.

 

If they do lose it for a week though, then they knew what the punishment was and if anything are maybe too ashamed to tell their parents (And I think a lot of parents would have little sympathy for them.  So many of the parents I've spoken to expect us, as teachers, to be making the tough calls).

But I really don't like having to look after their phones for a week.  As I know that if I were to somehow lose it, or break it, it'd cause a huge problem (Unlike when I confiscate mirrors from the ladyboys, who usually don't even bother to ask for them back lol).

 

You are an experienced teacher who knows his job and how to deal with problems that can/will occur, up and down. I was just trying to say that taking phones away would first need the PO's permission and some kids would immediately hate a newbie teacher for doing so. I think that we're all a bit different and it's all about the relationship that does or doesn't exist between the teacher and the student. 

 

If an expensive iPhone would disappear, it would be too easy to blame a foreign teacher for doing so. Enjoy your teaching, I know that you're doing a great job and your advice is always good and true. 

[White Tiger]

You could try giving them lines to write out.

 

You might also find that the other students are more than happy to give a troublemaker a clip round the back of the head. If a boy is playing up suggest to one of his classmates sitting nearby that he "dob dob" the naughty student and make a hand gesture to indicate a gentle clip round the ear. More likely than not the boys will be delighted to get permission from the teacher to give another boy a clip round the ear. The student who gets clipped round the back of the head won't be happy at this and will think twice before misbehaving again. You're not hitting any students so you're not breaking any laws; and the students are enforcing their own discipline. This deals with the bad behaviour quickly and in a way that looks like fun to most of the class - naturally the student who gets hit by his classmates won't like it.

[mentalcolonization]

make them your friends , listen to them , get in their fun , then you can achieve your objectives. punishment makes them runaway 

[SlyAnimal]

2 hours ago, mentalcolonization said:

make them your friends , listen to them , get in their fun , then you can achieve your objectives. punishment makes them runaway 

This tactic can work, but you have to be very careful with it imo.

As you need to always be their teacher, not their friend.  You can be the cool teacher, but you must still be the teacher, and they must respect you.  They should always be laughing with you, not at you.

I've seen this happen with a few teachers over the years, where they haven't had their contracts renewed despite being "liked" by the students, or at least they absolutely believed so anyway.  Some of the teachers might have also lost some of their respect as teachers within the community via their actions outside of school hours as well, due to frequently drinking in public (It's a small town, and Thai people love gossip, so everyone knows what you've been upto).

But that line between being liked and being respected is a tough one, sometimes I worry about things I do in class which are flirting with that line a little, although I figure so long as I only occasionally flirt with the line it won't erode the respect my students have for me.

[joninisaan]

On 6/29/2018 at 8:30 PM, SlyAnimal said:

Generally I go over the classroom rules at the start of the term, and explain the punishments at the same time.  I find that provided the students know ahead of time what the punishment will be, they will accept the punishment without complaint, and after 1 student in the class has been punished the others will realize that I was being serious.

I only have a pretty narrow spectrum of what I punish though, as I teach in the countryside so it's all about taking small steps.

Cellphone use in class (Unless it's a dictionary) - I'll confiscate their phone for a week.  I don't particularly like looking after phones though, so for the first student to get caught I'll make a song and dance about taking it for a week, then at the end of class will do a coin flip with the student, with heads (the king) returning their phone to them (And I deliberately try to manipulate the toss to ensure I lose).  I also sometimes give the students the choice of 700 lines (100 per day) to get their phone back straight away (For which they are very grateful, since they'd be social outcasts if they couldn't play RoV lol).

Copying homework - For copying homework I give all students involved 500 lines (So both the student copying, and the student who's book they borrowed).

 

Cheating/"Helping" - For students that try to cheat on tests, or who "help" their friends during speaking tests (i.e. Students not being tested saying the answer to a question, just as they do during regular questions in class) I advise the students that they'll receive a minimum of 500 lines, and will also receive 0 on their test as well.  The 0s I usually relent on, and allow a retest or similar after making them sweat for a bit, but do it on a case by case basis.

 

Skipping class - My students need to attend 80%+ of their classes.  If they're excused I don't factor that in at all, but otherwise will fail them if they don't attend at least 80% of my classes.  I usually try to calculate this well before I need to submit their grades, so that I can assign them special homework early.  I give them 500 lines for each day that they were absent, if they can complete their lines before x date (usually a date prior to when I need to submit my grades), then I will give them a 50% "discount" on their lines, and the grade that they deserved (rather than 0 or ม.ส. ).  I will also give them a second date, and if they complete their lines before then they can still have the 50% discount (But because their grade will have already been submitted as a fail, I can only change their grade back to a 1).  I also include an attendance section when calculating their grade, usually around 20%, from which I make deductions every time they are late or absent without a valid reason.

 

Failing tests - I usually don't punish students for poor performances in class.  However on tests that are a large contributor to a student's grade, I will give them the opportunity (Which is often compulsory) to test again with a similar test at lunch time.  When I do so, I will usually cap the maximum score of the re-test at 50% (And make students continue to test at lunch time each week until they can achieve 50%). 

Other - I also occasionally give lines to students that do something weird that I feel is inappropriate or rude e.g. I gave 3 girls 200 lines each because they took 20+ minutes in the toilet.

 

Incomplete lines - Students that are given special homework (lines), and don't complete them within 1 week, have the amount doubled.  When I first started doing this, some students mustn't have realized, and so had 200 lines (I wasn't as harsh then) turn into about 4000+ by the end of the term.  They didn't think it was funny anymore when I failed them and refused to change their grade until their work was completed.

But generally anything within the classroom itself I see as just general classroom management and so don't punish students for anything in class, aside from raising my voice or putting people on the spot via a question or similar.  Even when I do raise my voice etc, my goal is to keep the "approval" of the class, so only do so with fair warning (e.g. most of the class know when I'm about to yell, and enjoy seeing the shock/surprise on their friend's face when they get blasted) as I want to stop disruptive behaviour but not scare them too much.

Anywho, that's how I do things, I think that it works well but everyone has their own way of doing things, hope it's of some help.  I teach in the countryside, and it's 8 years since I first started at the school, so might have a bit more free reign than what some other teachers would e.g. I've heard some schools don't let you fail students, or even yell at students.  With limited experience elsewhere I don't know how flexible other school policies are, but I can definitely do both while still maintaining very positive reviews from the school/students, I just have to do it in the right way.

Edit:  Oh and just in hindsight, I should mention.  I do definitely feel that making it clear to students what the consequences of their actions are, BEFORE they break the rules, is really important.  I use what I feel are excessively harsh punishments for what are relatively minor infractions, this gives me a lot of leeway if I want to reduce a punishment.

Thanks for your input on punishments given per say writing lines. My question would have been what to do if a student never finishes their lines or just simply blows them off and not do them but I see how you link the not doing or finishing lines with grades, etc. Another question would be for offenses not listed like being a disturbance in class, etc. Would you threaten to drop their overall grade?

[joninisaan]

16 hours ago, White Tiger said:

You could try giving them lines to write out.

 

You might also find that the other students are more than happy to give a troublemaker a clip round the back of the head. If a boy is playing up suggest to one of his classmates sitting nearby that he "dob dob" the naughty student and make a hand gesture to indicate a gentle clip round the ear. More likely than not the boys will be delighted to get permission from the teacher to give another boy a clip round the ear. The student who gets clipped round the back of the head won't be happy at this and will think twice before misbehaving again. You're not hitting any students so you're not breaking any laws; and the students are enforcing their own discipline. This deals with the bad behaviour quickly and in a way that looks like fun to most of the class - naturally the student who gets hit by his classmates won't like it.

Thanks for the suggestion of clip round the ear. Just hope I'm not a bit angry at the time asking another student to give it and gesture to give not just a clip but a hard wack round the ear.

[SlyAnimal]

11 hours ago, joninisaan said:

Thanks for your input on punishments given per say writing lines. My question would have been what to do if a student never finishes their lines or just simply blows them off and not do them but I see how you link the not doing or finishing lines with grades, etc. Another question would be for offenses not listed like being a disturbance in class, etc. Would you threaten to drop their overall grade?

 

Yeah I've only ever had students try to test me by refusing to do their lines once, which was the time I mentioned in my previous post.  It was actually a group of 3 students, who had each received lines for various infractions (Their class was the naughtiest class I've ever taught, 7x ladyboys, as well as the regular clowns, who would all feed off each other's energy).  Their class was a lot naughtier than others and so I punished them regularly, as did all of the their other western teachers & Thai teachers, so the effects wore off and they lost their fear.

Punishing students too frequently is a problem, they lose their fear of it.  Which is what I feel was the downfall of corporal punishment, and am actually a firm believer that corporal punishment should be legal, but used extremely sparingly (Ideally not at all).  As if a student is given the same punishment regularly, they lose their fear of it, but there needs to always be something else, something scarier that can be used to enforce the other punishments to prevent disobedience.

Much like, a mild mannered teacher who rarely raises his voice, is extremely scary when he does, while a teacher that yells til they're red in the face each day isn't taken seriously anymore, as the teacher who yells has already played their hand, you've seen everything they've got and become used to it.

 

I'm not a good enough teacher to be so mild mannered, I need to raise my voice to single out students, and regularly yell at the class too if they get too noisy.  Although I try to make it clear to them that I'm not angry, by still remaining very calm, as I want to retain "being angry" as the ace up my sleeve.

Now I try to only occasionally give students lines for infractions within class, and only with repeated warnings first if I do, as I do feel it's really important that the students feel they deserve their punishments, and that they fear being punished.

Although in general I take the perspective that if the class is distracted, or even if individuals are distracted, then that's on me.  It isn't really the student's fault that they are talking, as if my lesson was more interesting, or at a level that they could better understand, then they'd be more engaged by it.

As a throwback to what we all likely learnt in our TESOL courses etc, it's all just things like:

- Making eye contact with students, especially the trouble makers, so that they know I'm watching them

- Asking questions to different areas of the classroom, especially the trouble makers, to ensure that everyone thinks they might be next

- Getting the students to all read/speak together, and repeating the same words until they are ALL doing it

 

These are ways to maintaining the focus of the students, but to prevent them drifting off in the first place the lesson also needs to be:

 

- Understandable - If the content is too difficult, or if your speed is too difficult to understand (accent/speed), or if you're trying to teach too much in a single lesson, then the students will switch off, can't be interested in something you don't understand.  Once they're off, it's hard to get them to switch back on, so it's better to start with something easy than to start with something difficult.

- Interesting - The content should be something that the students can relate to, so use Thailand examples rather than Western examples.  Western examples can work well with a group that's already motivated, but for high school kids....

- Engaging - Your personal charm and delivery of the lesson can make it engaging.  Smile, laugh, make jokes (That the students can understand), use body language and compel the students to engage with you.

Hope that doesn't sound too cheesy.  It's all easy stuff, and just common sense, although putting them all together can be like putting together a jigsaw puzzle while blindfolded at times, particularly as they are all interlinked.  So if you do poorly in one aspect, particularly from the second set of 3, then all of the others will become significantly more difficult.

Anyway, hope that didn't sound too much like telling you that water is wet lol.

Edited July 2, 2018 by SlyAnimal

[joninisaan]

11 hours ago, SlyAnimal said:

 

Yeah I've only ever had students try to test me by refusing to do their lines once, which was the time I mentioned in my previous post.  It was actually a group of 3 students, who had each received lines for various infractions (Their class was the naughtiest class I've ever taught, 7x ladyboys, as well as the regular clowns, who would all feed off each other's energy).  Their class was a lot naughtier than others and so I punished them regularly, as did all of the their other western teachers & Thai teachers, so the effects wore off and they lost their fear.

Punishing students too frequently is a problem, they lose their fear of it.  Which is what I feel was the downfall of corporal punishment, and am actually a firm believer that corporal punishment should be legal, but used extremely sparingly (Ideally not at all).  As if a student is given the same punishment regularly, they lose their fear of it, but there needs to always be something else, something scarier that can be used to enforce the other punishments to prevent disobedience.

Much like, a mild mannered teacher who rarely raises his voice, is extremely scary when he does, while a teacher that yells til they're red in the face each day isn't taken seriously anymore, as the teacher who yells has already played their hand, you've seen everything they've got and become used to it.

 

I'm not a good enough teacher to be so mild mannered, I need to raise my voice to single out students, and regularly yell at the class too if they get too noisy.  Although I try to make it clear to them that I'm not angry, by still remaining very calm, as I want to retain "being angry" as the ace up my sleeve.

Now I try to only occasionally give students lines for infractions within class, and only with repeated warnings first if I do, as I do feel it's really important that the students feel they deserve their punishments, and that they fear being punished.

Although in general I take the perspective that if the class is distracted, or even if individuals are distracted, then that's on me.  It isn't really the student's fault that they are talking, as if my lesson was more interesting, or at a level that they could better understand, then they'd be more engaged by it.

As a throwback to what we all likely learnt in our TESOL courses etc, it's all just things like:

- Making eye contact with students, especially the trouble makers, so that they know I'm watching them

- Asking questions to different areas of the classroom, especially the trouble makers, to ensure that everyone thinks they might be next

- Getting the students to all read/speak together, and repeating the same words until they are ALL doing it

 

These are ways to maintaining the focus of the students, but to prevent them drifting off in the first place the lesson also needs to be:

 

- Understandable - If the content is too difficult, or if your speed is too difficult to understand (accent/speed), or if you're trying to teach too much in a single lesson, then the students will switch off, can't be interested in something you don't understand.  Once they're off, it's hard to get them to switch back on, so it's better to start with something easy than to start with something difficult.

- Interesting - The content should be something that the students can relate to, so use Thailand examples rather than Western examples.  Western examples can work well with a group that's already motivated, but for high school kids....

- Engaging - Your personal charm and delivery of the lesson can make it engaging.  Smile, laugh, make jokes (That the students can understand), use body language and compel the students to engage with you.

Hope that doesn't sound too cheesy.  It's all easy stuff, and just common sense, although putting them all together can be like putting together a jigsaw puzzle while blindfolded at times, particularly as they are all interlinked.  So if you do poorly in one aspect, particularly from the second set of 3, then all of the others will become significantly more difficult.

Anyway, hope that didn't sound too much like telling you that water is wet lol.

Thanks for the added points. I already had to make some boys who were playing around in class. I let the class go lunch early about 10 minutes before lunch (as I was hungry already) but the boys stayed back and wrote just 10 lines (M 1 and time was an essence) but they wrote it like their life depended on it and I told them to write 50 more and turn in by this week. If they don't, then Ill up the sentences next week 100 and still keep them back from the rest of the class to write a minimum from the 100 they have to turn in in 1 week. Of course for the class to go lunch early by 10 minutes is if the class is well behaved. Also, JUST in case, I push the time back by 10 minutes to play with  so that I don't give the parents of the students staying back and writing sentences something to complain about that I'm keeping the students away from lunch. 

Ill see how these boys behave now in class as to why I kept the numbers small but will definitely add if they start acting up in class again.

Thanks again for your post that gave me some great ideas

Truly appreciate it

[Mike1989]

On 6/29/2018 at 9:30 AM, SlyAnimal said:

Generally I go over the classroom rules at the start of the term, and explain the punishments at the same time.  I find that provided the students know ahead of time what the punishment will be, they will accept the punishment without complaint, and after 1 student in the class has been punished the others will realize that I was being serious.

I only have a pretty narrow spectrum of what I punish though, as I teach in the countryside so it's all about taking small steps.

Cellphone use in class (Unless it's a dictionary) - I'll confiscate their phone for a week.  I don't particularly like looking after phones though, so for the first student to get caught I'll make a song and dance about taking it for a week, then at the end of class will do a coin flip with the student, with heads (the king) returning their phone to them (And I deliberately try to manipulate the toss to ensure I lose).  I also sometimes give the students the choice of 700 lines (100 per day) to get their phone back straight away (For which they are very grateful, since they'd be social outcasts if they couldn't play RoV lol).

Copying homework - For copying homework I give all students involved 500 lines (So both the student copying, and the student who's book they borrowed).

 

Cheating/"Helping" - For students that try to cheat on tests, or who "help" their friends during speaking tests (i.e. Students not being tested saying the answer to a question, just as they do during regular questions in class) I advise the students that they'll receive a minimum of 500 lines, and will also receive 0 on their test as well.  The 0s I usually relent on, and allow a retest or similar after making them sweat for a bit, but do it on a case by case basis.

 

Skipping class - My students need to attend 80%+ of their classes.  If they're excused I don't factor that in at all, but otherwise will fail them if they don't attend at least 80% of my classes.  I usually try to calculate this well before I need to submit their grades, so that I can assign them special homework early.  I give them 500 lines for each day that they were absent, if they can complete their lines before x date (usually a date prior to when I need to submit my grades), then I will give them a 50% "discount" on their lines, and the grade that they deserved (rather than 0 or ม.ส. ).  I will also give them a second date, and if they complete their lines before then they can still have the 50% discount (But because their grade will have already been submitted as a fail, I can only change their grade back to a 1).  I also include an attendance section when calculating their grade, usually around 20%, from which I make deductions every time they are late or absent without a valid reason.

 

Failing tests - I usually don't punish students for poor performances in class.  However on tests that are a large contributor to a student's grade, I will give them the opportunity (Which is often compulsory) to test again with a similar test at lunch time.  When I do so, I will usually cap the maximum score of the re-test at 50% (And make students continue to test at lunch time each week until they can achieve 50%). 

Other - I also occasionally give lines to students that do something weird that I feel is inappropriate or rude e.g. I gave 3 girls 200 lines each because they took 20+ minutes in the toilet.

 

Incomplete lines - Students that are given special homework (lines), and don't complete them within 1 week, have the amount doubled.  When I first started doing this, some students mustn't have realized, and so had 200 lines (I wasn't as harsh then) turn into about 4000+ by the end of the term.  They didn't think it was funny anymore when I failed them and refused to change their grade until their work was completed.

But generally anything within the classroom itself I see as just general classroom management and so don't punish students for anything in class, aside from raising my voice or putting people on the spot via a question or similar.  Even when I do raise my voice etc, my goal is to keep the "approval" of the class, so only do so with fair warning (e.g. most of the class know when I'm about to yell, and enjoy seeing the shock/surprise on their friend's face when they get blasted) as I want to stop disruptive behaviour but not scare them too much.

Anywho, that's how I do things, I think that it works well but everyone has their own way of doing things, hope it's of some help.  I teach in the countryside, and it's 8 years since I first started at the school, so might have a bit more free reign than what some other teachers would e.g. I've heard some schools don't let you fail students, or even yell at students.  With limited experience elsewhere I don't know how flexible other school policies are, but I can definitely do both while still maintaining very positive reviews from the school/students, I just have to do it in the right way.

Edit:  Oh and just in hindsight, I should mention.  I do definitely feel that making it clear to students what the consequences of their actions are, BEFORE they break the rules, is really important.  I use what I feel are excessively harsh punishments for what are relatively minor infractions, this gives me a lot of leeway if I want to reduce a punishment.

I am not sure if you will see this because it’s been a few years.  You have a great system.  I make students write lines for many of these infractions.  I usually assign 100-300.  Wondering how long you give for 500 or more.  Anytime,  I have given 500 lines or more is for serious offences or if the students has not completed them to begin with.  It takes a while for them to write a large amount but it’s a great punishment.  Do you assign lines in English?  Do you use the I must not option?  I have teaching in Malaysia for a few years and have gradually made lines my main go to punishment.   For classroom disruptions,  I ask them to either stand in the corner or in the hallway.  I prefer the corner for supervision reasons.  I really enjoyed your posting and am considering increasing the number of lines for punishments.  

[FritsSikkink]

On 6/1/2024 at 9:14 PM, Mike1989 said:

I am not sure if you will see this because it’s been a few years.  You have a great system.  I make students write lines for many of these infractions.  I usually assign 100-300.  Wondering how long you give for 500 or more.  Anytime,  I have given 500 lines or more is for serious offences or if the students has not completed them to begin with.  It takes a while for them to write a large amount but it’s a great punishment.  Do you assign lines in English?  Do you use the I must not option?  I have teaching in Malaysia for a few years and have gradually made lines my main go to punishment.   For classroom disruptions,  I ask them to either stand in the corner or in the hallway.  I prefer the corner for supervision reasons.  I really enjoyed your posting and am considering increasing the number of lines for punishments.  

"Cellphone use in class (Unless it's a dictionary) - I'll confiscate their phone for a week."

Great rules? That is theft, good luck with that.

I would tell my kid, you could stick your lines somewhere dark too. Any problems talk to me.