World’s 50 Best Restaurants places Bangkok's “Gaggan” at No.5

[Justfine]

Just now, spidermike007 said:

Here we go again. The person who professes to have this deep understanding of red wines, calls Chateauneuf average french wine. I do not need to explain this. I will call upon some of the greatest experts on wine, on the planet. Maybe you know more that they do? Or perhaps you unwillingness to spend real money on great wine has prevented you from ever tasting a great CDP?

 

You probably consider wine writers to be snooty. But here is what Parker says in general, about CDP-

The best Châteauneuf-du-Papes are among the most natural expressions of grapes, place and vintage. Châteauneuf-du-Pape vineyards are farmed organically or biodynamically, and the region's abundant sunshine and frequent wind (called le mistral) practically preclude the need for treating the fields with herbicides or pesticides. The wines themselves are equally pure, their flavors rarely masked by aging in new oak. But the greatest appeal of Châteauneuf-du-Pape, beyond its food-friendly qualities, expansiveness, generosity of flavors and sumptuous texture, is the almost addictive attraction of its combined intellectual and hedonistic elements. That's what attracts me the most and undoubtedly accounts for Châteauneuf-du-Pape's rapidly growing popularity.

 

https://www.foodandwine.com/articles/a-crush-on-chateauneuf-du-pape

 

And Livingstone Learmonths description of a 2001 Rayas- 

 

mild red, not full to the top of rim. Red berry jam aroma, very clear and clean, with a lightly nutty twist - quite direct at this early stage, with a lurkng southern ripeness, inset and withdrawn as yet. Cautious attack, supple, rich red fruit with quiet tannic presence. Light, almost Burgundian alongside the usual Châteauneufs. Elegant, rounded texture, feathery richness, very fine and rounded all the way through, notably on the finish. More to it by 2009, there is some jasmin/rose later on. More grassy, pebbly after 3 hours. I still cannot find the old stuffing that used to be present, even discreetly. 2021-24 Feb 2005

 

Your honor, I deeply apologize for the opposing counsels lack of study on the issues here. This is all I have to say on the matter. Nothing is really being contributed in opposition, so I rest my case your honor. 

 

It's the internet and you're talking to an imaginary judge.

 

I worked for one of the world's leading wineries for 2 years.

 

You would wet yourself if you knew what you have missed out on.

[janclaes47]

1 minute ago, Justfine said:

I worked for one of the world's leading wineries for 2 years.

 

And then they found someone who did a better job at cleaning the toilets

[Justfine]

https://www.concourscabernets.com/en/fiche-vin-1200-wakefield-taylors-the-visionary-cabernet-sauvignon.html

 

Had a 100 wines like this. Not even expensive.

[Justfine]

2 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

And then they found someone who did a better job at cleaning the toilets

Hi Jan.

[spidermike007]

10 minutes ago, Justfine said:

It's the internet and you're talking to an imaginary judge.

 

I worked for one of the world's leading wineries for 2 years.

 

You would wet yourself if you knew what you have missed out on.

 

Believe me, this is not being done on your behalf, as I am certain you would be unfamiliar with most of these wines. But, for the entertainment of the other forum members who enjoy great wine, here are just a few of the recent wine events I have had the great fortune of attending. Does not measure up to your two years at Frogs Leap I am sure.  

 

Again your honor (your imaginary judge) I rest my case. 

Edited June 21, 2018 by spidermike007

[Justfine]

1 minute ago, spidermike007 said:

 

Believe me, this is not being done on your behalf. But, just a few of the recent wine events I have attended. Again your honor (your imaginary judge) I rest my case. 

Second rate.

[spidermike007]

19 minutes ago, Justfine said:

Second rate.

I believe you fit the classic Thaivisa definition of a troll.

 

'One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument' - Urban Dictionary. Lets be honest, the forum would be more boring than it is if we didn't have trolls/didn't troll ourselves sometimes. I am sure most of it is harmless fun and we can all move on from it - we are all adults.

 

However having said that, I do believe the very definition of a troll, is someone who put extraordinarily little thought or effort into a reply, such as your second rate comment, on some of the best wines in the world. That was just surly, nasty, unnecessary, ignorant, and indicative of somebody who had absolutely nothing to add, nor anything to say, and possesses a remarkable lack of knowledge. 

Edited June 21, 2018 by spidermike007

[JLCrab]

 

[Justfine]

5 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

I believe you fit the classic Thaivisa definition of a troll.

 

'One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument' - Urban Dictionary. Lets be honest, the forum would be more boring than it is if we didn't have trolls/didn't troll ourselves sometimes. I am sure most of it is harmless fun and we can all move on from it - we are all adults.

 

However having said that, I do believe the very definition of a troll, is someone who put extraordinarily little thought or effort into a reply, such as your second rate descriptions of some of the best wines in the world. That was just surly, nasty, unnecessary, ignorant, and indicative of somebody who had absolutely nothing to add, nor anything to say.

No buddy I'm amazed you are so easily impressed by these wines.

 

I can walk to a bottleshop that has 500 world class wines.

 

"nasty"

 

You're the one who keeps making insults and nasty comments.

 

You've abused me about 10 times already.

 

Doesn't bother me. Says a lot about you though.

 

 

 

 

[Mattd]

And here was me thinking that the only reason to go to a curry house was to drink more lager...............?

[Ks45672]

2 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Especially when you take into account both wine service, and wine prices. I was recently with a group of friends, and we wanted to order a bottle of wine, at of one of those high end restaurants in the EmQuartier complex. It was Bella Rocca Restaurant. I asked about a 2011 Chianti they had on the list. I was told they were out of stock. I asked about a Barbaresco, at 2,600 baht. Again, out of stock. How about this Nebbiolo? Do you have the 2010, as stated on the list? No, we only have the 2015. OK, what is that wine like? Is it drinking well now? I do not know. Is there anyone here that is familiar with this wine list? No. Sorry sir. Wait a minute. You have 100 bottles on this list, ranging from 1200 baht to 10,000 baht per bottle, and NOBODY who works here knows anything about the wine? Are you serious? We all just looked at each other, and got up and walked out. We realized the restaurant was a pretender. And more than likely the food was marginal at best. It was all dressed up to look like a very nice Italian restaurant. But, it appeared to be only window dressing. High end tourists have little patience for that lack of quality and lack of service. 

But again, the lack of vision, combined with a naive, surly, silly, churlish, and ignorant sense of nationalism, bites the country in the butt. And again, who is the loser? The Thai people. 

The entire country is suffering from declining Western tourism. And that will not change. It is a permanent declining trend.

Expecting a min wage  3rd world  waiter to be an authority on expensive wines he could never afford to drink is a good joke 

 

You as the wealthy wine drinker should know what your ordering better than he

[InMyShadow]

1 hour ago, spidermike007 said:

 

I completely disagree. You may like fresh and simple food. And there is nothing wrong with that. But, it simply represents one style of food preparation. 

 

There are countless cities that take their food and their customers very seriously, have the talent both in the kitchen, and in the staff, to back it up, and bring alot to the table. Not the same in any city. That is utter nonsense. You just cannot compare Bangkok, to the great cities of the world, or even to a city like Seattle, Kansas City, Dallas, Miami, Auckland or even a city like Ontario, when it comes to wine service. Those cities have staff that are infinitely more knowledgable than in Bangkok, when it comes to wine service. Unless you are eating at the Four Seasons, The Peninsula, The Shanrgi La, The Banyan Tree, and a few other top hotels in Bangkok, and perhaps a handful of restaurants, more than likely you will not find a really good sommelier who knows the wine well, and has the wine list to back up a claim to good wine service. And even if you do find that, I good Chatuauneuf du Pape, like a 2001 or a 2005 Domaine du Clos du Caillou Reserve, would set you back 75,000 baht. In the states I can find that wine for $350, or $600 in a good restaurant. 

 

In other cities, the sommeliers are constantly mixing with others in their profession, tasting great wines daily, attending great tastings, and are afforded a level of access someone in Bangkok simply would not have, due to the stunningly high duties here, and the backward, ignorant, despotic, churlish, nonsensical, fearful, antiquated, protectionist, non-visionary wine policy this inept government has here. 

What a drama queen! Who you kidding you would have know about it while you were coming here on vacations but of course that was not your first priority.

Now you settled down and live here your all of a sudden a hi so demanding 5 star service. As you say there are other countries way better for you if it upsets you that much 

Paris calling? 

 

[Justfine]

18 minutes ago, InMyShadow said:

What a drama queen! Who you kidding you would have know about it while you were coming here on vacations but of course that was not your first priority.

Now you settled down and live here your all of a sudden a hi so demanding 5 star service. As you say there are other countries way better for you if it upsets you that much 

Paris calling? 

 

Correct.

[Justfine]

29 minutes ago, Ks45672 said:

Expecting a min wage  3rd world  waiter to be an authority on expensive wines he could never afford to drink is a good joke 

 

You as the wealthy wine drinker should know what your ordering better than he

Exactly. Claims to be an expert then complains some 300 baht a day guy can't explain the wine list for him.

 

Experienced wine drinkers already know what's good and what to look for.

 

 

 

 

 

[PETERTHEEATER]

And nobody goes to Thailand for wine

 

Plenty go to whine.....

[Ochomo]

After a careful consideration of Justfine and Spidermike’s submissions. I as the imaginary judge will illustrate my ruling with a story.

A story of a man who opened a small restaurant in Paris.  Nothing Michelin-worthy.  He was hard of cash after investing in other areas of the business and to solve the wine issue, he did something that would have horrified many of us. He would buy the cheapest of wines by the barrel and then recycle bottles of better wines in which he would carefully pour this cheap wine.  He then made a wine list with the price tags of these significantly more expensive wines and watched in amusement as the snobbish types smelt, swished and checked the viscosity of his mediocre wine. Of course others just asked for the cheapest of wines and paid the real price. I never established the veracity of this story but reading through your submissions, I was left wondering whether this ingenious restaurateur would have fooled either of you.

Spidermike, you reasoned well and presented good data and diagrams to back up your arguments. However, arguments are not won through hard facts.

Skilled arguers like Justfine are interested in winning the argument, not the facts or the truth.  You may have realised that while your presentations were elaborate, his retorts were rather pithy. You may label him a troll but Justfine wins this debate. This is Thaivisa, not l’academie mondiale des sommeliers!

[JLCrab]

Well getting away from the wine debate for a bit, these are a couple of photos from last years #1 restaurant in the world and #4 this year in New York City. Part of the $295 per person tasting menu.

[Justfine]

1 minute ago, JLCrab said:

Well getting away from the wine debate for a bit, these are a couple of photos from last years #1 restaurant in the world and #4 this year in New York City. Part of the $295 per person tasting menu.

$20 worth of food

[moontang]

a  friend said he felt bad and blew grits after eating Indian food in DC last month.  He was found dead the next morning.  Was in good shape, too.

[canuckamuck]

I have determined, after 40 years of good intentions and having given wine the full benefit of the doubt, that wine is really not very good. I quite enjoy almost anything instead of it. And yes I kept imagining that if I finally had one that was extremely expensive I would discover what it is that people get so obsessive about. But nope, price doesn't seem to have much bearing on the result. I would say my favorite wines are ones that don't have so much wine taste to them. Kind of like fish. People like the ones that don't taste so much like fish. eg. you have to try this fish it is lovely, it doesn't taste like fish at all.

Edited June 21, 2018 by canuckamuck

[MrJohnson]

20 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

 

I completely disagree. You may like fresh and simple food. And there is nothing wrong with that. But, it simply represents one style of food preparation. 

 

There are countless cities that take their food and their customers very seriously, have the talent both in the kitchen, and in the staff, to back it up, and bring alot to the table. Not the same in any city. That is utter nonsense. You just cannot compare Bangkok, to the great cities of the world, or even to a city like Seattle, Kansas City, Dallas, Miami, Auckland or even a city like Ontario, when it comes to wine service. Those cities have staff that are infinitely more knowledgable than in Bangkok, when it comes to wine service. Unless you are eating at the Four Seasons, The Peninsula, The Shanrgi La, The Banyan Tree, and a few other top hotels in Bangkok, and perhaps a handful of restaurants, more than likely you will not find a really good sommelier who knows the wine well, and has the wine list to back up a claim to good wine service. And even if you do find that, I good Chatuauneuf du Pape, like a 2001 or a 2005 Domaine du Clos du Caillou Reserve, would set you back 75,000 baht. In the states I can find that wine for $350, or $600 in a good restaurant. 

 

In other cities, the sommeliers are constantly mixing with others in their profession, tasting great wines daily, attending great tastings, and are afforded a level of access someone in Bangkok simply would not have, due to the stunningly high duties here, and the backward, ignorant, despotic, churlish, nonsensical, fearful, antiquated, protectionist, non-visionary wine policy this inept government has here. 

Yes, points well made Mike. An unfortunate generalization on my part.

[tolsti]

22 hours ago, Oxx said:

I remain mystified as to why this restaurant continues to attract accolades.  Many of the dishes are poorly thought out (e.g. putting uni with a granita which totally kills the taste of the uni), poorly executed ("sushi" with fish full of chewy bits and inexpertly cut), and plain difficult to eat (things that collapse whilst you pick them from plate to mouth, or are two large to eat in one bite, and then collapse as one takes a bite).  Gaggan himself also ruins some of the surprises by, for example, telling you what's in the mysterious black sphere before you eat it.  A number of the dishes are unpalatable for Asians (e.g. watermelon with blue cheese, and my partner was only able to eat a couple of spoonfuls of the chawanmushi/crab curry/rice monstrosity before rushing to the toilet).

 

I could write about the poor hygiene, the run down infrastructure, the snooty sommelier, the arrogant and offensive Gaggan, or how queasy I felt after finishing the meal, but that's enough for now.

 

When it comes to Michelin star restaurants in Bangkok, I'd be very happy to go back to Upstairs Restaurant, L'Atelier de Joël Robuchon, Savelberg, Nahm, Sra Bua or Le Normandie.  Gaggan - never.

Apart from this; how was the meal?

[DeusExMachinaBKK]

Talking about wine is something pretentious people love doing. I used to be a bar tender and I was serving at a wine tasting event. There were about 10 different bottles for them to try and some ice wines as well.

 

I spent the whole evening BS’ing about the wine. I actually never even drank wine. I just used words like, dry, fruity, oaky, robust, etc and these dummies were agreeing with everything I said. So funny. 

[spidermike007]

20 hours ago, InMyShadow said:

What a drama queen! Who you kidding you would have know about it while you were coming here on vacations but of course that was not your first priority.

Now you settled down and live here your all of a sudden a hi so demanding 5 star service. As you say there are other countries way better for you if it upsets you that much 

Paris calling? 

 

Some of your guys really missed the point, with statements like how could a 300 baht a day waiter know anything. Well, first of all, at a Michelin star restaurant, you are not hiring a guy off the streets to serve your patrons. You are hiring a skilled waiter, who is trained to have great knowledge of the food and wine. That is common practice in the industry, at this level. 

 

Second, I do not eat at these restaurants. This was simply a discussion about the difference between wine service here, and elsewhere. 

 

Thirdly, about the suggestion of moving to Paris. Very lame. Nearly every time I see someone complaining, or observing a shortfall within Thailand, some lame guy, who has not taken the time to think things through, nor to devote any focus or effort to a reasonable reply, says something like "Perhaps Thailand is not for you", or maybe you should leave, or the top prize, "if you do not like it here, go back to your own country". Hard to even respond to such inane statements. Why? Because I have some issues with the place? Sorry to inform you, but the nature of a discerning mind, is to have issues. Though absolute contentment must be a beautiful state of mind, it is not something most of us are blessed with, in case you have not noticed. The fact that I complain, does not mean I do not love Thailand, nor most of it's people. I do. I love my life here. I have a very good life here. But, I do have some complaints, and there are some things I would love to see improved. I should leave because of that? Please. Next time you make a post, try to devote at least two moments of thought to it. 

[Bangkok Barry]

2 hours ago, DeusExMachinaBKK said:

Talking about wine is something pretentious people love doing. I used to be a bar tender and I was serving at a wine tasting event. There were about 10 different bottles for them to try and some ice wines as well.

 

I spent the whole evening BS’ing about the wine. I actually never even drank wine. I just used words like, dry, fruity, oaky, robust, etc and these dummies were agreeing with everything I said. So funny. 

 

No. They were looking to you for advice, part of the reason surely that people attend such functions, and you were misleading lying to them. Why? That makes you the pompous one in my book, covering up for your ignorance on the subject.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Bangkok Barry

[DeusExMachinaBKK]

22 minutes ago, Bangkok Barry said:

 

No. They were looking to you for advice, part of the reason surely that people attend such functions, and you were misleading lying to them. Why? That makes you the pompous one in my book, covering up for your ignorance on the subject.

I encourage you to educate yourself. 

 

https://youtu.be/5PeKcWCC-tw

[Justfine]

2 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Some of your guys really missed the point, with statements like how could a 300 baht a day waiter know anything. Well, first of all, at a Michelin star restaurant, you are not hiring a guy off the streets to serve your patrons. You are hiring a skilled waiter, who is trained to have great knowledge of the food and wine. That is common practice in the industry, at this level. 

 

Second, I do not eat at these restaurants. This was simply a discussion about the difference between wine service here, and elsewhere. 

 

Thirdly, about the suggestion of moving to Paris. Very lame. Nearly every time I see someone complaining, or observing a shortfall within Thailand, some lame guy, who has not taken the time to think things through, nor to devote any focus or effort to a reasonable reply, says something like "Perhaps Thailand is not for you", or maybe you should leave, or the top prize, "if you do not like it here, go back to your own country". Hard to even respond to such inane statements. Why? Because I have some issues with the place? Sorry to inform you, but the nature of a discerning mind, is to have issues. Though absolute contentment must be a beautiful state of mind, it is not something most of us are blessed with, in case you have not noticed. The fact that I complain, does not mean I do not love Thailand, nor most of it's people. I do. I love my life here. I have a very good life here. But, I do have some complaints, and there are some things I would love to see improved. I should leave because of that? Please. Next time you make a post, try to devote at least two moments of thought to it. 

Who cares. You make these long posts for yourself. It's an ego thing.

 

Nobody goes to Bangkok for wine.  Wrong city, wrong country, wrong culture.

[Justfine]

3 hours ago, DeusExMachinaBKK said:

Talking about wine is something pretentious people love doing. I used to be a bar tender and I was serving at a wine tasting event. There were about 10 different bottles for them to try and some ice wines as well.

 

I spent the whole evening BS’ing about the wine. I actually never even drank wine. I just used words like, dry, fruity, oaky, robust, etc and these dummies were agreeing with everything I said. So funny. 

5555

Good on you. Hope they tipped as well.

[lamyai3]

On 6/21/2018 at 2:07 PM, Mattd said:

And here was me thinking that the only reason to go to a curry house was to drink more lager...............?

That used to be true in England before they changed the laws on licensing hours. Happily, the ruby made a decent beer pairing...