Plant Based Nutrition and Fasting

[Kohsamida]

3 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Something interesting:

 

https://www.runnersworld.com/nutrition-weight-loss/a19573412/rich-roll-vegan-diet/?utm_content=2018-07-04&utm_campaign=Rundown&utm_source=runnersworld.com&utm_medium=newsletter&smartcode=YN_0027502591_0001673168&sha1hashlower=b98976fbc20c6a7628315399a0ac5c41f911fe6f&md5hash=9d6013d8d5d78d7d906cea28132e8093

 

 

 "...the deficiency seems like it can happen fairly quickly in certain cases."

 

Interesting - there will always be outliers in the statistics - so to be safe one can now and then get a B-12 test.

 

I just noticed "Dextrose" in a B-12 supplement that I ordered from iherb the brand is Mason. I will look for another brand if I need a large dose in the future.

Yes, a blood test for B-12 is easy enough, and really cheap too here in Chiang Mai.  FYI, the place I get blood tests is:

Phuak Chang Clinical Specialty

https://goo.gl/maps/kBbbZWxqNs92

 

Also, if you want a good pharmacy in Chiang Mai to get high quality B-12 (and many other top grade pharma), I recommend Peera Pharmacy.  The pharmacist is knowledgable, friendly, and very well stocked, and speaks fluent English...and she really know her stuff and is willing to give great advice.

https://goo.gl/maps/c1xvDv3P3gs

Edited July 5, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Kohsamida]

On 7/3/2018 at 7:57 PM, Justfine said:

"Since most vegans are otherwise healthy "

 

Are they? They normally look pale and sick.

Ahhh, such generalizations LOL.  I know you just say these things to get a rise out of me, right?

[Kohsamida]

On 7/3/2018 at 9:30 AM, Justfine said:

So now you love steak ?

I've always enjoyed steak.  I don't think you understand my view on nutrition.  I am not a true 100% vegan but I embrace a lot of what plant-based nutrition is all about.  I eat red meat on occasion.  I love how it tastes and it's an indulgence to have it from time to time.  Even though I feel sluggish and uncomfortable the day after, it's a sinful indulgence that's probably not that harmful from time to time.

 

Contrarily, I have a good friend who is into power lifting and considers eating red meet and other cholesterol rich foods to be an essential part of his training, and further enhances his intake of animal protein with whey protein, creatine, BCCA's and all sort of crazy supplements.  He eats steak for dinner almost every night!  To me, that's just crazy! He claims it's fine and constantly references "bro science" articles and threads on health fitness forums to support his views on protein.

 

My point; an occasional indulgence is one thing.  Making animal proteins  a major part of your diet, and ingesting excessive amounts of protein in general has a lot of contrary science going against it these days.

 

In America, people grossly over-indulge in red meat and processed "convenience" foods.  Protein intake is far to high and science has proven this can be extremely detrimental to health, especially since excessive protein intake is simply converted to stored fat in the liver which can have serious health implications.

[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/04/170421084920.htm]

 

The acronym "SAD" is appropriate for describing the standard American Diet since, for many, it consists of eating fast food, pizza, and way too much red meat.  The epidemic in type-2 Diabetes in the last 20 years is a strong indication that there is something wrong with American eating habits now that wasn't so prevalent before.

 

Personally I don't adhere to any particular nutritional lifestyle.  I look at the positives and negatives of different perspectives and try and take advantage of the best that each has to offer in terms of how my own body reacts. 

 

What works for one person might not work for another.  Personally I like much of what plant-based nutrition has to say.  I also like much of what I read about Paleo eating.  So, I'm neither Vegan or Paleo.  I guess I'm kind of a Pagan ?

 

I mean, the principals of good nutrition aren't etched in stone and aren't universal to every person.  You need to be as scientifically informed as possible (not pseudoscience) and find out what works best for you and your own body.  At the same time, you can't be so indoctrinated with your lifestyle decisions that you can't enjoy life (i.e.: a nice juicy steak).  That's all I'm really trying to say.

Edited July 5, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Bonobojt]

I'm planning my first ever water fast for next Friday, I'll try and do the 3 day water fast. I really feel like I need to do this, I need to give my gut a rest, a clear out and a reset, any tips/advice would be great, I think I'll just buy some Evian bottled water and drink that, I guess I can't drink tap water ? (I'm currently in the UK)

[Kohsamida]

2 hours ago, Bonobojt said:

I'm planning my first ever water fast for next Friday, I'll try and do the 3 day water fast. I really feel like I need to do this, I need to give my gut a rest, a clear out and a reset, any tips/advice would be great, I think I'll just buy some Evian bottled water and drink that, I guess I can't drink tap water ? (I'm currently in the UK)

Hey, good for you!  I've done many water fasts over the years.  As a matter of fact I just finished up a 7 day water fast last week.

 

I don't think there are too many things you need to be concerned with as far as a 72 hour fast goes, as long as you are in good health and have no medical conditions you're dealing with.

 

Drinking plenty of water is of course important.  You want to stay very well dehydrated.  Tap water is OK if you're living somewhere with safe tap water (obviously not here in Thailand).  Bottled spring water is probably better, but not essential.

 

How you enter and exit a fast need not be as complicated as a lot of people seem to make it.  As far as starting the fast, just start.  There's no need to start off juicing which many people recommend.  Just start!  Like most tasks, just making a start is the hardest thing to do.

 

As far as breaking the fast, just be sensible.  Coming off a 72 hour fast is easy.  Just use common sense and introduce foods slowly and in small amounts starting with juices, progressing to simple fruits and vegetables, and finally simple meals during the 48 hours after the fast.

 

You get a pretty amazing feeling from a fast afterwards; at least I do.  Don't get me wrong; it's not the most pleasant thing to go through, particularly a 3 day fast. 

 

Most of the discomfort of a fast actually seem to disappear AFTER the 3rd day for most people.  For me it takes 4 days. Everybody reacts differently.  If it's a first fast, it's probably wise not to go beyond 3 days though.

 

Just try and remember that fasting is a very natural event.  There's nothing inherently dangerous or risky about it.  Our bodies were built to do it

 

If you need a good source of inspiration, try and read what Dr. Jason Fong has to say about water fasting.  The first time you fast there is a lot of self-doubt, and a lot of people around will try and persuade you not to do it for a lot of reason that are simply not valid. 

 

Dr Fong dispels a lot of those myths with information that is wholly science-based and I found his writings to be pretty motivating while I fasted and had those weak moments of self-doubt about what I was doing.  It helped me a lot.

 

Anyway, good luck on your fasting adventure (and you should think of it that way, because you will definitely discover some new things about yourself along the way!)  If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to ask.  If I can help, I'm happy to.

 

Edited July 6, 2018 by Kohsamida

[evadgib]

IF (intermittent fasting) is doing me the world of good at the rate of 3 x 24hrs per week. I'm not veggie and find 'chicken water' (veggies in boiled chicken juice with a little meat) extremely helpful while doing so. The kilos are falling off ?

[balo]

Intermittent fasting with only 600 calories once or twice per week  is the way to go for me.  I follow Dr Mosley's program and they are working just great.

 

I am not overweight or anything like that , when I do the fasting I lose around 2 kilo, and the day after fasting my body feels great and I have a lot of energy . 

 

The day I only eat 600 calories I always start with an oat meal , frozen berries and some natural low fat yoghurt and cinnamon. 

 It will keep me through the day , then just a carrot  or something with few calories before a light evening meal .  Plenty of water of course.  The next day I do not even feel very hungry . I am sure I could do this for several days in a row , but I don't see much health benefits in that . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kohsamida]

1 hour ago, balo said:

Intermittent fasting with only 600 calories once or twice per week  is the way to go for me.  I follow Dr Mosley's program and they are working just great.

 

I am not overweight or anything like that , when I do the fasting I lose around 2 kilo, and the day after fasting my body feels great and I have a lot of energy . 

 

The day I only eat 600 calories I always start with an oat meal , frozen berries and some natural low fat yoghurt and cinnamon. 

 It will keep me through the day , then just a carrot  or something with few calories before a light evening meal .  Plenty of water of course.  The next day I do not even feel very hungry . I am sure I could do this for several days in a row , but I don't see much health benefits in that . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, most of the health benefits of a fast don't really kick in until you've fasted for about 72 hours.  That's not to say there aren't benefits to shorter fasts, but the real benefits only start once glycogen stores have been depleted but before ketosis has fully kicked in.  It's during this period of time that the body is forced to use proteins as fuel.  

 

I know that sounds counter-intutive that the burning of protein is a good thing, but it actually is, and here's why. 

 

The process is referred to as autophagy.  To be clear, this isn't guru speak; it's not pseudo science, it's now science-based fact.  A lot of what's now known about it is the result of the work of the Japanese scientist, Yoshinori Ohsumi, who was awarded the Nobel Prize in 2016 for his research.

 

When glycogen stores are depleted from fasting, the body must use protein as fuel, until ketosis can reach a level that stored body fat can be mobilized for fuel needs.

 

While some essential protein such as that associated with the heart and mover muscles are sacrificed, it is actually a negligible amount during the initial stages of a fast.  What research has shown is that, these essential proteins are spared in favor of damaged or non-functioning intra-cellular proteins (RNA).

 

These damaged proteins are expelled out of the cell, broken down into amino acids and used as fuel.  Ketosis ramps up fairly quick so that the body can begin to meet most if its' fuel need through stored fat before essential proteins are seriously sacrificed.

 

The health significance of this is that these damaged proteins (RNA) are the very ones that are being increasingly associated with many forms of cancer, Alzheimer's disease, and a host of other diseases.

 

Autophagy is sort of like a form of "spring house cleaning" when you do a 72 hour fast since most of this all occurs in that timeframe for most people. 

 

Just my 2 cents worth ?  Nothing negative about intermittent fasting intended with my remarks.

 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Sheryl]

IF (intermittent fasting) is doing me the world of good at the rate of 3 x 24hrs per week. I'm not veggie and find 'chicken water' (veggies in boiled chicken juice with a little meat) extremely helpful while doing so. The kilos are falling off [emoji4]

IF has worked for me in weight loss, better than anything else I have ever tried. 2 or 3 times a week but never sequentially. I consume only very wateted down gruit juice (unsweetened spple vidar or cranberry juice, maybe 60 cc in a full glass of water)? An apple, a pomegranate, lettuce with nothing on it. If necessary I add some psyllium to the watered down juice.

List 5 kg this way.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[VincentRJ]

On 7/7/2018 at 2:45 AM, Kohsamida said:

Actually, most of the health benefits of a fast don't really kick in until you've fasted for about 72 hours.  That's not to say there aren't benefits to shorter fasts, but the real benefits only start once glycogen stores have been depleted but before ketosis has fully kicked in.  It's during this period of time that the body is forced to use proteins as fuel.  

 

I know that sounds counter-intutive that the burning of protein is a good thing, but it actually is, and here's why. 

 

The process is referred to as autophagy.  To be clear, this isn't guru speak; it's not pseudo science, it's now science-based fact.  A lot of what's now known about it is the result of the work of the Japanese scientist, Yoshinori Ohsumi, who was awarded the Nobel Prize in 2016 for his research.

 

When glycogen stores are depleted from fasting, the body must use protein as fuel, until ketosis can reach a level that stored body fat can be mobilized for fuel needs.

 

While some essential protein such as that associated with the heart and mover muscles are sacrificed, it is actually a negligible amount during the initial stages of a fast.  What research has shown is that, these essential proteins are spared in favor of damaged or non-functioning intra-cellular proteins (RNA).

 

These damaged proteins are expelled out of the cell, broken down into amino acids and used as fuel.  Ketosis ramps up fairly quick so that the body can begin to meet most if its' fuel need through stored fat before essential proteins are seriously sacrificed.

 

The health significance of this is that these damaged proteins (RNA) are the very ones that are being increasingly associated with many forms of cancer, Alzheimer's disease, and a host of other diseases.

 

Autophagy is sort of like a form of "spring house cleaning" when you do a 72 hour fast since most of this all occurs in that timeframe for most people. 

 

Just my 2 cents worth ?  Nothing negative about intermittent fasting intended with my remarks.

 

 

 

More than 2 cents worth, Kohsamida. The beneifits of prolonged fasting, 3 days to a week or more, are amazing.
Sadly, most people don't have the will power nor the motivation to benefit from this 'more than free' remedy. Fasting for a few days not only allows the body to fix any emerging problems that would otherwise result in a visit to the doctor, but it actually saves you a lot of money, on both food and medical expenses.

 

Of course, this fact is not good news for the processed food industry and the medical and pharmaceutical industries. They need you to spend money on their products in order for their industries to flourish. ?

[Kohsamida]

1 hour ago, VincentRJ said:

More than 2 cents worth, Kohsamida. The beneifits of prolonged fasting, 3 days to a week or more, are amazing.
Sadly, most people don't have the will power nor the motivation to benefit from this 'more than free' remedy. Fasting for a few days not only allows the body to fix any emerging problems that would otherwise result in a visit to the doctor, but it actually saves you a lot of money, on both food and medical expenses.

 

Of course, this fact is not good news for the processed food industry and the medical and pharmaceutical industries. They need you to spend money on their products in order for their industries to flourish. ?

You make an excellent point.  One of the great things about fasting is that there is nothing complicated about it.  No strict diets to follow, no so-called miracle supplements needed, nothing unnatural to do.  You just stop eating...pretty simple, right?

 

You also make another great point.  The reason a lot of people look at fasting in a skeptical light is because it's not widely promoted as a legit thing.  In fact, much of the negative press on fasting originates from the big food industry sponsored councils.

[Bonobojt]

would fasting be good to kill and get rid of all parasites in your gut and Candida ? now I'm thinking about doing a 40 day water fast, I suspect I have parasites and gut unbalances, maybe Candida ? from what I understand, the parasites would starve and die if fasting long term (40 days max) 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Bonobojt

[VincentRJ]

10 hours ago, Bonobojt said:

would fasting be good to kill and get rid of all parasites in your gut and Candida ? now I'm thinking about doing a 40 day water fast, I suspect I have parasites and gut unbalances, maybe Candida ? from what I understand, the parasites would starve and die if fasting long term (40 days max) 

My understanding, from the scientific research that I've read, is that after 5 or 6 days of fasting, the body will begin to consume the defunct white blood cells as food. After you resume eating at the end of your fast, all those defunct white blood cells, that were serving no purpose, will be replaced with new, fully functioning white blood cells, which should result in a strengthening of your immune system.

 

At what stage particular parasites will be consumed, I'm not sufficiently expert to say. The problem is, it's so difficult and expensive to conduct rigorous tests on humans under the fully controlled conditions that are required for a high level of certainty on an issue. Also, with regard to the benefits of fasting, there's nothing to sell at the end of the research, except perhaps the research paper itself or a book.

 

For those who are new to fasting, I personally would recommend getting used to the short fasts first, then gradually extend the period of the fasts. The first time you do a 24 hour fast, it will probably be difficult. Gradually it will become easier, then you can progress to a 48 hour fast, then 72 hour fast, and so on.

 

Also, how you cope will be a matter of individual motivation, strengths and weaknesses, and your current degree of overweight. Fasting is probably not recommended if you are already underweight.

 

I was amazed to read of the following case where an extremely obese man fasted for more than a whole year.
https://www.sciencealert.com/the-true-story-of-a-man-who-survived-without-any-food-for-382-days

 

"Yet the limits on how long people can go without eating are complicated; without water people are unlikely to last a week, but the amount of time starvation takes can vary drastically. Take the story of Angus Barbieri - for 382 days, ending 11 July 1966, the then-27-year-old Scotsman ate nothing."

 

"In what was a surprise to his doctors, he lived his daily life mostly from home during the fast, coming into the hospital for frequent checkups and overnight stays.

 

Regular blood-sugar tests - intended to demonstrate that he was somehow able to function while very hypoglycemic - assured doctors that he really wasn't eating. Weeks turned into months.
Barbieri took vitamins on various occasions throughout the fast, including potassium and sodium supplements.
He was allowed to drink coffee, tea, and sparkling water, all of which are naturally calorie-free. He said there was the occasional time that he'd have a touch of sugar or milk in tea, especially in his final few weeks of fasting."

 

Best of luck! Let us know what the results are.

 

[Kohsamida]

Unintended fast of the “cave kids”.  I’m really curious to hear how the almost 14 days of unintended fasting effected the kids up in Chiang Rai.  I doubt that much pertinent medical information will be made public but still it’s a fascinating “real world” situation of long term fasting.

 

I’m sure everybody has been following this human drama as it unfolds.  It was such a relief last night when reports started coming in that the first 4 kids emerged from the caves and seem to be in good health.

 

It is an amazing story on so many fronts; a story of the human will to survive, and a story of how people from all around the world could come together for a common goal.  It says something about the basic goodness of people everywhere, irregardless of geo-political differences.  Pretty impressive!

Edited July 9, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Bonobojt]

ok I'll take it slow, start with 3 days, then if I feel good, go with 7, done some research and some people have mentioned that when you fast long enough, you starve the Parasites inside you, and if you fast long enough, 20 + days, you will kill Candida too.

 

well I have decided to start my fast today, just woke up, now is day 1, I'll be drinking tap water, I may buy bottled water from time to time throughout this fast depending how long I can last. Luckily where I live, the tap water is decent, no fluoride I think,, but still has Chlorine of course but I'm not spending tons of money on fancy water filters.

 

Now I am and always have been, a tall thin guy, I can't weigh myself as have no scales, but in the past when I've been weighed at a Thai Hospital I'm between 60 to 64kg  and I'm 5'11, if I had good straight posture I'd be 6 foot. but I think anyone can fast, doesn't matter if they are thin. Jesus fasted and he was thin. anyway, I'll be doing research on fasting today.

[Kohsamida]

For those considering a long-term water fast:  I thought it might be useful to see sort of a capsule summary of the physiological changes that occur as you progress through a fast, along with a rough timeline.  

This article is written by Dr. Jason Fung, who many of you might know is a acknowledged medical authority on the subject of fasting, and a renowned physician working with patients with metabolic-related diseases such as diabetes.  

 

Furthermore, everything he has to say is science-based and he is outstanding at explaining the complex biochemical and physiological effects of fasting, and it’s benefits in an easy to understand way.

 

The article dispels a lot of the myths and mis-information associated with these subjects.

 

Hope some of you find it useful.

 

https://www.dietdoctor.com/fasting-affects-physiology-hormones

Edited July 9, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Kohsamida]

17 minutes ago, Bonobojt said:

 

well I have decided to start my fast today, just woke up, now is day 1...

Enjoy the journey!  Read my last post’s linked article.  I find it really motivating to know what’s happening inside your body as you progress through the various physiological stages.  It kind of helps you to get over the rough spots when your will power to continue wavers.

 

Best wishes.  Listen to your body.  If something isn’t going right, your body will let you know in no uncertain terms, but I’m confident you’ll do fine!

 

Let us know how it’s going ?  Good idea to keep a journal, day-to-day.

Edited July 9, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Kohsamida]

Another good read; this one on Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications of Fasting, by 

Valter Longo and Mark Mattson of Davis School of Gerontology and Department of Biological Sciences, University of Southern California.  Longo is the researcher that advocates FMD (the Fast Mimicking Diet)

.

Kind of a hard read but lots of good information about fasting that is strictly science-based.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3946160/

Edited July 9, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Bonobojt]

2 hours ago, Kohsamida said:

Enjoy the journey!  Read my last post’s linked article.  I find it really motivating to know what’s happening inside your body as you progress through the various physiological stages.  It kind of helps you to get over the rough spots when your will power to continue wavers.

 

Best wishes.  Listen to your body.  If something isn’t going right, your body will let you know in no uncertain terms, but I’m confident you’ll do fine!

 

Let us know how it’s going ?  Good idea to keep a journal, day-to-day.

yes I'll keep a journal on this thread, not sure how long I'll go as there are some Plant Based Doctor's and Fasting Specialists that say any fasting more than 3 days must be medically supervised, not sure what your opinion on that is ?

 

only thing I'm worried about is losing weight and muscle and looking pale and very skinny and my family being concerned, but of that depends on how long I go.

[Kohsamida]

57 minutes ago, Bonobojt said:

yes I'll keep a journal on this thread, not sure how long I'll go as there are some Plant Based Doctor's and Fasting Specialists that say any fasting more than 3 days must be medically supervised, not sure what your opinion on that is ?

 

only thing I'm worried about is losing weight and muscle and looking pale and very skinny and my family being concerned, but of that depends on how long I go.

I would not be too concerned with muscle loss from a  3 day fast (or even a 7 day fast, for that matter), though I can understand how that would be hard to believe.  Read the linked article I posted this morning (physiology of fasting) and I think you'll feel much more confident about this when you do.

 

Excessive muscle loss is actually a myth in connection with fasting, though it can be a serious concern when restricting calories in a typical weight loss diet.  Again, the linked article I posted explains this, but here is a graph showing exactly what happens to protein levels when you fast, and it may surprise you:

 

(graph by Dr. Kevin Hall from the NIH in the book “Comparative Physiology of Fasting, Starvation, and Food Limitation”.)

 

As you can see protein oxidation does slightly spike initially when carbs are abruptly halted from the diet, though not that much, and then as ketones and mobilized fat stores begin providing more fuel, protein oxidation actually starts to decline! 

 

In a calorie-restricted diet however, this doesn't happen!  If eaten carbs are above about 50 grams, ketones will not be produced which means stored fat wont be mobilized as fuel.  Under this circumstance, protein oxidation will increase markedly to meet the fuel needs of the body, and then you really will burn muscle!

 

Fung explains it al lot better though in an article where he specifically addresses Fasting and Muscle Mass, and I think you'll really feel confident after reading it ?:  

https://idmprogram.com/fasting-and-muscle-mass-fasting-part-14/

Edited July 9, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Taggart]

A couple of year's ago I tried Bert Herring's Fast-5 style of intermittent fasting, but I had to back off when I found my blood pressure skyrocketed upwards.  Seems I need three main meals a day (not all, but mostly whole foods plant based).

 

Lately I've been experimenting with coffee drinking.  Only one or two cups a day but so far, that also seems to effect my blood pressure negatively.  No problems at all with either hot Japanese green tea or matcha tea powder mixed in a cold glass of water.

[Kohsamida]

32 minutes ago, Taggart said:

A couple of year's ago I tried Bert Herring's Fast-5 style of intermittent fasting, but I had to back off when I found my blood pressure skyrocketed upwards.  Seems I need three main meals a day (not all, but mostly whole foods plant based).

 

Lately I've been experimenting with coffee drinking.  Only one or two cups a day but so far, that also seems to effect my blood pressure negatively.  No problems at all with either hot Japanese green tea or matcha tea powder mixed in a cold glass of water.

The whole thing that attracted me to fasting was finding out I had extremely high blood pressure (180/130).  My MD put me on statins and said to "clean up" my diet but offered no other advice.  Nothing improved.  I began reading on my own and became very impressed with a lot of science-based research showing that high blood pressure  can be attributed to the type  of foods you eat.  By "type" I mean macronutrients, as in excessive carbohydrates because of how they effect insulin levels.

 

It wasn't as simple as that though.  I started to realize it wasn't all carbs but primarily those of processed foods and refined sugars.  Salts also.  I radically changed my diet.  I cut out ALL processed sugar, stopped using table salt entirely, and because I was really impressed with a lot of what I was reading about fasting (science based, not pseudo-science), I started playing around with that too.  I did all these things together, so I can't say that any one of them was responsible, but my blood pressure dropped into the normal range within weeks of making my dietary changes.

 

I no longer taking any BP meds.  I monitor my BP daily.  I recently did a 7 day water fast and saw no adverse change.  Now, don't get me wrong.  Everybody is unique, and how I reacted to these things may not be how you would, but did you focus specifically on removing sugar and salt?  Personally I think that was the culprit for me.

 

There's a lot of IF diets out there.  Some are good and some, not so good.  The thing that attracts me to water fasting as a therapeutic tool, as opposed to juice fasting of IF, is it's simplicity.  You simply stop eating!  What could be simpler than that?  No magical "super food" type supplements, no super foods, no elaborate schedules...just stop eating and let your body do what it already knows how to do and has been able to do since the dawn of time. ?  Fasting is really a very natural process done by all mammals, not just Man.

 

Of course, it's important to say again, everybody is unique.  There are a some medical reasons that would make fasting contraindicated, so the the advice of a "good", well informed MD would always be the best starting point before actually embarking on a fast.  A blood panel will usually tell you what you need to know.

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Antonymous]

Without fail, my blood pressure drops substantially after the first day of either a water fast (zero calories) or a Master Cleanse (which is a semi-fast consisting of lemon juice, maple syrup and cayenne pepper, 750 calories a day) and no matter what the starting point (such as 160/85) reaches a plateau around 110/70 after five days.

 

The longest semi-fast I have done is 30 days. My blood pressure remains low-normal for weeks after I resume eating, after a long fast, but eventually creeps back up to the original level. I have not yet determined what it is about eating that causes the higher levels and I have done around 50 fasts, monitoring everything before during and after. It has nothing to do with salt and the same thing happens whatever 'diet' I was on beforehand (eating meat, vegetarian or vegan).

 

I have spoken to dozens of other fasters and semi-fasters over the years and all have had lowered blood pressure and  I assumed that it applied to everyone. Note that the lowered BP does NOT occur with IF. You have to stick to either a fast or specific cleanse to achieve this.

[Kohsamida]

14 minutes ago, Antonymous said:

Without fail, my blood pressure drops substantially after the first day of either a water fast (zero calories) or a Master Cleanse (which is a semi-fast consisting of lemon juice, maple syrup and cayenne pepper, 750 calories a day) and no matter what the starting point (such as 160/85) reaches a plateau around 110/70 after five days.

 

The longest semi-fast I have done is 30 days. My blood pressure remains low-normal for weeks after I resume eating, after a long fast, but eventually creeps back up to the original level. I have not yet determined what it is about eating that causes the higher levels and I have done around 50 fasts, monitoring everything before during and after. It has nothing to do with salt and the same thing happens whatever 'diet' I was on beforehand (eating meat, vegetarian or vegan).

 

I have spoken to dozens of other fasters and semi-fasters over the years and all have had lowered blood pressure and  I assumed that it applied to everyone. Note that the lowered BP does NOT occur with IF. You have to stick to either a fast or specific cleanse to achieve this.

Oh, OK.  So you're saying there was something specific to that "Fast-5 style of intermittent fasting" that caused the issue, or that BP starts to climb over time, after you stop any type of fast, or both? 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Antonymous]

1 minute ago, Kohsamida said:

Oh, OK.  So you're saying there was something specific to that "Fast-5 style of intermittent fasting" that caused the issue, or that BP starts to climb over time, after you stop any type of fast, or both? 

I'm saying that doing a water fast, or doing a Master Cleanse, reduces blood pressure (along with many other benefits) and I have used both methods to great effect to stabilise my BP at times in my life when anxiety ad other issues have raised it above an acceptable level.

 

But when I do IF, I do not get a reduction in BP.

[Kohsamida]

2 minutes ago, Antonymous said:

I'm saying that doing a water fast, or doing a Master Cleanse, reduces blood pressure (along with many other benefits) and I have used both methods to great effect to stabilise my BP at times in my life when anxiety ad other issues have raised it above an acceptable level.

 

But when I do IF, I do not get a reduction in BP.

Well I think the big difference between IF and full-out water fasting is that IF never really allows for the depletion of glycogen stores and so ketosis doesn't really ramp up the way it would in a water fast going out beyond, say 72 hours. 

 

I have to confess I am not up on the science of fasting as it relates to blood pressure as much as I am on how it effect insulin sensitivity except in regard to how excessive fat stored in the liver can effect both things.  

 

For me, I guess I'm fortunate to have found that salt and processed sugar had the negative effect on my BP that they have.  I mean, I could practically raise my blood pressure through the roof within hours by making a trip to McDonalds and pigging out, which was a pretty shocking thing to find out!

 

For me, I have fluctuations in my BP from day to day but they go both up and down by not more than a few percent, and thankfully don't trend upward unless I start eating poorly (which is pretty easy to do), and then it can skyrocket pretty fast.

[VincentRJ]

5 hours ago, Kohsamida said:

Unintended fast of the “cave kids”.  I’m really curious to hear how the almost 14 days of unintended fasting effected the kids up in Chiang Rai.  I doubt that much pertinent medical information will be made public but still it’s a fascinating “real world” situation of long term fasting.

 

That also occurred to me. Most people would consider a fast of 12 or 13 days as awful. However, the boys did have some food during that time, and they seemed to be in good spirits when found. Their lack of food is really a minor issue, with probably more benefits than harm. Their safe exit from the cave is the major issue.

 

I’m sure everybody has been following this human drama as it unfolds.  It was such a relief last night when reports started coming in that the first 4 kids emerged from the caves and seem to be in good health.

 

Absolutely! I was a bit pessimistic that they would never be found alive, but was overjoyed at the news of their discovery.

 

It is an amazing story on so many fronts; a story of the human will to survive, and a story of how people from all around the world could come together for a common goal.  It says something about the basic goodness of people everywhere, irregardless of geo-political differences.  Pretty impressive!

 

Yes. This is cause for optimism. I get a sense that more news coverage and co-operation has occurred, in relation to this case, than has occurred in relation to the current North Korean problem. Let this be a lesson for future co-operation. ?

[Kohsamida]

15 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Yes. This is cause for optimism. I get a sense that more news coverage and co-operation has occurred, in relation to this case, than has occurred in relation to the current North Korean problem. Let this be a lesson for future co-operation. ?

Oh man; you got that right!  I'll tell you, I've been closely following American politics since Trump was elected simply because I am an American.  I am not interested in the politics of dems vs republicans, except to note how screwed up both sides are when it comes to working together for a solution to a common goal

 

It seems they could learn a few things by what's happened here in Thailand with people from all around the world coming here, working together so effectively and without the partisan BS so common in most political situations.  Really amazing to see it all happen right before our eyes in the last few days!

Edited July 9, 2018 by Kohsamida

[TravelerEastWest]

The doctors at True North suggest distilled water which is not expensive. 

 

Longer then three days water fasts - would be better to have medical supervision.

 

With that said I have done 7 and 8 day water fasts at home but I have a very simple plant based organic diet and have done short fasts before.

 

For me teh hunger never goes away so it may for some people but not for others. Also be sure to rest.

 

I am not 100% sure about Dr Fung's opinions as he is very arrogant and not everything he says makes sense to me.

 

As an example he talks about cures for diabetes...

 

 

[Kohsamida]

46 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

The doctors at True North suggest distilled water which is not expensive. 

 

Longer then three days water fasts - would be better to have medical supervision.

 

With that said I have done 7 and 8 day water fasts at home but I have a very simple plant based organic diet and have done short fasts before.

 

For me teh hunger never goes away so it may for some people but not for others. Also be sure to rest.

 

I am not 100% sure about Dr Fung's opinions as he is very arrogant and not everything he says makes sense to me.

 

As an example he talks about cures for diabetes...

 

 

I can see how you might take his attitude to be somewhat arrogant but it usually seems to be when he is dispelling myths perpetrated by those hucksters spewing pseudo-science purely for commercial gain, or when talking about organizations like the American Diabetes Association that make claims that Diabetes is absolutely not reversible, and advises those with Diabetes to accept that they will have to take medications for life in order to keep their diabetes in check. 

 

The American Diabetes Associations claim is false! However, big pharma companies make millions if not billions of dollars of profit from the sale of  diabetes drugs like Insulin and Metformin.  They are well equipped to protect those profits through powerful lobbying and by funding biased studies to support their claims, so yeah, he gets a little heated when he talks about certain subjects for sure.

 

When he speaks about diabetes, perhaps he doesn't make it clear enough that he's not claiming that ALL diabetes can be cured, and I don't think he means "cure"  in the traditional sense, but rather "reversal" of many of the effects.  

 

I think the point he is making is that many people develop diabetes simply because of too much carbohydrates in their diet, WAY too much, and that by cutting the carbs down significantly, much of the effects of diabetes can be reversed.  And, unbiased, science-based studies seem to support his views.

 

Of course many studies do not support his views but often, when you look at the source of support for those studies, there is good cause to suspect bias. 

 

I don't agree with everything he has to say, or that it applies to everybody, but he is an established kidney specialist working with people in a clinical setting with type-2 diabetes, and his approach seems to have a very high degree of success with his patients. 

 

The actual science behind his words is pretty solid for the most part, I think.  Of course, it's just my opinion.  Everybody has to decide for themselves what they believe to be right or wrong.

Edited July 9, 2018 by Kohsamida