If I don't sign new contract, fired...

[stevenl]

58 minutes ago, puukao said:

I will tell them I'm not signing.  I've done once before.  

 

How will I know for sure they fired me?  Sounds funny, but can can call the labor department and somehow I keep working here with my work permit?  55555.

 

I hope once they fire me, someone at the labor department comes here....

 

 

Please listen to advice given here: go to the labour office. Don't call, don't wait for them to come: go to the labour office.

[Norrad]

42 minutes ago, puukao said:

Can they make it impossible to teach any where else?  Like call ministry of education or something....

 

 

No they can't. There is no blacklist of teachers or anything. Schools will often threaten that they will blacklist you, but it's hollow threats.

 

Now from the severance pay perspective. Government schools are assigned government employees and all other hires are considered contractors and therefore not entitled to severance pay. Private schools, language centers and agencies hire you as an employee and you may be entitled to some severance pay if they fire you. But the teaching profession is strange as it is exempt from many requirements (such as minimum salary and contract lengths) and I have never heard of a teacher actually being able to get severance pay after being fired.

 

Also refusing to sign a new contract can be seen as you quitting and then any company would not have to pay severance pay.

[overherebc]

1 hour ago, Norrad said:

I'm going to guess that this is a teaching contract (based on the May start date). In that case you will have major problems getting any severance pay out of your employer as schools are exempt from certain rules.

Schools like to think they are.

Schools love it when they convince teachers that labour law applies only to Thais, that you have to sign a new contract every year etc etc

An employer is an employer.

If you have a dispute with an employer the labour dept' will tell you who is right/wrong.

If the employer decides to fight the case the labour dept' can ask/tell them to deposit the disputed figure in an escrow account prior to the case.

When a decision is made the cash is paid to the employee or returned.

Edited July 2, 2018 by overherebc

[puukao]

I will have to turn in my work permit, go to immigration and then do a border run.  

 

 

[overherebc]

30 minutes ago, puukao said:

I will have to turn in my work permit, go to immigration and then do a border run.  

 

 

Why. If you do that you are resigning and losing a cash pay out from the employer.

Is your employer so 'all powerful' they frighten you?

Edited July 2, 2018 by overherebc

[Norrad]

34 minutes ago, puukao said:

I will have to turn in my work permit, go to immigration and then do a border run.  

 

 

Don't do it until you have visited the Labour department in your area and had a chat to them. They will advise you on your options.

[puukao]

i will email them tonight, tell them i won't sign and ask for a letter tomorrow firing me.

 

 

[puukao]

That's what i was thinking....I want to talk to the Labor department first....

 

i have time on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday....

 

another thing:  I am the HEAD teacher, in charge of 7 foreign teachers.  5 of them don't have a proper work permit.  I think 3 are on like 3 month probation...

 

it's a mess

[overherebc]

1 minute ago, puukao said:

i will email them tonight, tell them i won't sign and ask for a letter tomorrow firing me.

 

 

Tomorrow go to the labour department. Don't phone them or e-mail them, go there.

The first question they are most likely to ask is ' how can we help you?'

[overherebc]

2 minutes ago, puukao said:

That's what i was thinking....I want to talk to the Labor department first....

 

i have time on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday....

 

another thing:  I am the HEAD teacher, in charge of 7 foreign teachers.  5 of them don't have a proper work permit.  I think 3 are on like 3 month probation...

 

it's a mess

You have so much power in your hands and that is not a joke.

[puukao]

My contract says "any party intending to terminate this contract shall give no less than 30 days advance notice......"

 

my 30-day notice will be on Wednesday.  It was written.

 

They gave me nothing, just an email that said i will be fired if i don't sign...

 

which i guess is written.

 

 

[puukao]

They should have said , "fired for not wearing ....... or .......".  I'm surprised they really said, "you will be terminated immediately if you don't sign your new contract."
 

lol

 

OK, If i get fired tomorrow.....whatever.  it's like 5%, really, if i told you more about my position.

 

if i don't get fired, i have lots of classes tomorrow.....i think i can go to the labor department on Wednesday, Thursday or Friday.  

 

funny, a kid's birthday today and his mom wanted me to have half the cake.

 

well, not funny, but i'm absolutely not a hated teacher by the kids.

 

but i won't be bullied..

 

i have enough cash to take 6 months off, or a year....maybe more.  

[overherebc]

15 minutes ago, puukao said:

They should have said , "fired for not wearing ....... or .......".  I'm surprised they really said, "you will be terminated immediately if you don't sign your new contract."
 

lol

 

OK, If i get fired tomorrow.....whatever.  it's like 5%, really, if i told you more about my position.

 

if i don't get fired, i have lots of classes tomorrow.....i think i can go to the labor department on Wednesday, Thursday or Friday.  

 

funny, a kid's birthday today and his mom wanted me to have half the cake.

 

well, not funny, but i'm absolutely not a hated teacher by the kids.

 

but i won't be bullied..

 

i have enough cash to take 6 months off, or a year....maybe more.  

Take copy of the e mail to the labour department.

Do you have your WP or a copy? take that as well.

Don't hand your passport to them, the school, for sure they will tell you you must.

At the labour department be nice, smiling and calm, they will be on your side.

Don't get ratty with the office staff at work, they are only doing what they've been told.

Don't believe the 'Immigration said' line, it's BS to try and scare you.

Sign 'Nothing' until you've been to the labour department.

Edited July 2, 2018 by overherebc

[samran]

3 hours ago, puukao said:

My contract says "any party intending to terminate this contract shall give no less than 30 days advance notice......"

 

my 30-day notice will be on Wednesday.  It was written.

 

They gave me nothing, just an email that said i will be fired if i don't sign...

 

which i guess is written.

 

 

DO NOT give notice. 

 

Listen to to the advice here. Go to the labour court and have them sort your situation. At the very least you will be eligible for a termination payment.

 

Dont give any indication YOU are voluntarily resigning which may undermine your case. 

 

You have a lot of power here. Don’t be silly by undermining it.

[puukao]

THIS is why the email is soo strange...

 

I decided i wanted to leave LAST MONTH (many problems, one was that they gave me too much responsibilities not listed on my contract....like telling me to be a homeroom teacher, feed the kids, be with them all day), so I gave them notice on June 4th to leave on July 15.....contract said i need to give 30.   they got mad i was leaving, and said i must have a new contract until the end of the term.   at 10,000 less.  i told them i'm not happy and not signing......

 

on Wednesday, it will be 30-days since i told them i'm leaving.  i'll wait until then, unless fired tomorrow.  

 

if fired, fine.   if not fired, i'll go to the labor department on thursday and explain my situation.  

 

it makes no sense.  it seems like they want to fire me before i was set to leave.....

 

so maybe i will wait to be fired.   but then i have to wonder if they will pay me at the end of the month.  if not, another problem.  but an easier problem, i think.

 

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by puukao

[overherebc]

16 minutes ago, puukao said:

THIS is why the email is soo strange...

 

I decided i wanted to leave LAST MONTH (many problems, one was that they gave me too much responsibilities not listed on my contract....like telling me to be a homeroom teacher, feed the kids, be with them all day), so I gave them notice on June 4th to leave on July 15.....contract said i need to give 30.   they got mad i was leaving, and said i must have a new contract until the end of the term.   at 10,000 less.  i told them i'm not happy and not signing......

 

on Wednesday, it will be 30-days since i told them i'm leaving.  i'll wait until then, unless fired tomorrow.  

 

if fired, fine.   if not fired, i'll go to the labor department on thursday and explain my situation.  

 

it makes no sense.  it seems like they want to fire me before i was set to leave.....

 

so maybe i will wait to be fired.   but then i have to wonder if they will pay me at the end of the month.  if not, another problem.  but an easier problem, i think.

 

 

Did you sign anything about leaving or just said it?

[puukao]

I gave them a written notice on June 4th.  

 

of course we met like 10 times since then, with them trying to get me to stay.

 

but more problems kept coming up.  

 

seems like if they fire me, maybe i can get one month's pay.  they didn't give me an official warning, just this email.  

 

and if they don't fire me, i want to leave.....i'll go to the labor department and make sure it's all fine and then hand over my WP.  

 

i'm curious when i must sign this new contract.......

 

i don't even have a copy of the new contract

 

 

 

[overherebc]

10 hours ago, puukao said:

I gave them a written notice on June 4th.  

 

of course we met like 10 times since then, with them trying to get me to stay.

 

but more problems kept coming up.  

 

seems like if they fire me, maybe i can get one month's pay.  they didn't give me an official warning, just this email.  

 

and if they don't fire me, i want to leave.....i'll go to the labor department and make sure it's all fine and then hand over my WP.  

 

i'm curious when i must sign this new contract.......

 

i don't even have a copy of the new contract

 

 

 

If they have your written notice dated 4th June then you have burned your bridges I reckon.

[quandow]

Are you the only teacher being treated this way?

[anon537687643]

Not surprising from
Cheating schools


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[Mattd]

11 hours ago, puukao said:

I gave them a written notice on June 4th.  

This could well be an issue and negate any possible claims for compensation.

 

Am I understanding the situation clearly, in that you were issued a new one year contract in May 2018, you submitted a resignation letter on 4th June 2018, since that time the school have tried to issue you with a new contract with lower salary and general conditions / working hours, you have met with them many times, where they have asked you to stay, presumably on their new terms?

Have the school ever acknowledged and accepted your resignation in writing?

What is their reasoning behind trying to issue the new contract, is it just until the point your notice period ends, or beyond that?

 

As it stands now, so long as you submitted your resignation within the terms of your employment contract, then the school has to honour that within the same terms, they are not allowed to change anything in the notice period and must allocate any holiday entitlement etc.

They could legitimately offer you a new contract from the day after your notice period ends and it is entirely up to you if you were to accept.

The actual end date of the notice period would depend on the acceptance by the school, they could either accept you to work until 15th July, or the minimum 30 days, either way they must inform you.

 

A Thai employment contract can be terminated verbally, but only if the employment contract doesn't state written notice, personally I am a huge believer in keeping everything written, for record purposes.

 

[AlQaholic]

I have a related question. Most contracts include a clause about termination. In that clause is usually stated something like "the employer must notify three months in advance of terminating the contract". If this is done like after 10 consecutive annual contracts, the last contract being terminated in that way, does the employee have any rights to severance pay?

[Mattd]

5 minutes ago, AlQaholic said:

I have a related question. Most contracts include a clause about termination. In that clause is usually stated something like "the employer must notify three months in advance of terminating the contract". If this is done like after 10 consecutive annual contracts, the last contract being terminated in that way, does the employee have any rights to severance pay?

If the contracts are consecutive, tax has been paid over the term and termination is without cause, then yes severance would have to be paid, for 10 years it would be 10 months severance pay (300 days to be exact).

[overherebc]

18 minutes ago, Mattd said:

If the contracts are consecutive, tax has been paid over the term and termination is without cause, then yes severance would have to be paid, for 10 years it would be 10 months severance pay (300 days to be exact).

That's exactly how it works, on tax records, not contracts.

[Mattd]

1 minute ago, overherebc said:

That's exactly how it works, on tax records, not contracts.

Agreed, except of course it must be for the same employer.

[Horace]

20 hours ago, stevenl said:

Don't sign, don't do a visa run, go to labour office first.

Agree. I am not sure what type of job you have, but the Labour Protection Act (does not apply to teachers) provides that they cannot take away any benefits without your consent.  If they are planning on firing you anyway, you lose your right to statutory severance if you quit.  If they are forced to fire you, you are entitled to three months severance and payment in lieu of notice.  For payment in lieu of notice, assume you are paid on the last day of the month. If so, and they fire you today (3 July), they must pay your salary through the end of August.  About five months.  And then, on top of that, you can sue unfair termination, but that is discretionary and not an entitlements they are obliged to pay.

 

Go to the Labour Protection Office ASAP.  Too many foreigners get jerked around by their employers here.  Many local employers use all sorts of intimidation practices, and the Labour Protection office knows that. 

 

If your employment is subject to the Labour Protection Act, you employer is obligated to pay statutory severance.  If they fail to pay it, the interest amount is huge (if the failure to pay is "intentional", the interest rate on the unpaid severance is 15% every seven days) and the directors have committed a crime punishable by six months imprisonment (you can directly file a criminal action).  The Labour Protection Office knows and your employer probably knows.  But most employees do not. 

 

For the statutory severance and payment in lieu of notice, you have tremendous leverage against your employer.  Don't forfeit that leverage.  Thai courts tend to side in favor of employees on unfair termination, but its not guaranteed.  If you are singled out or its personal, its likely unfair.  Use this as a bargaining chip to press for six or seven months.  You might not get the full six or seven months, but if you know your rights and press hard (like virtually Thais do when they are terminated), you should get a generous separation package.

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by Horace
Typo

[puukao]

Well, maybe I did the wrong thing.

 

They will change this new contract to pay me my current salary, so not a 10000 reduction.  Current contract ends April 19.  New contract will end September 30.  

 

I told them I want a letter about when I will be fired if I don't sign the new contract, but they wanted to forget about that email.

 

They said I'll get whatever I want, so I'm not sure they were going to fire me.  I showed them (director) my contract and said I'll go talk to the labor department about the email and why what I do isn't noted in my contract.  

 

I guess I'll sign this only to avoid me going to the labor department and maybe talking about things that would cause them great stress.... maybe me2, but doubtful.

 

Now I'll only teach like 16 hours a week.  Instead of 21.

 

Will this be the end????

 

I'm sure more drama will follow.  

 

 

[puukao]

I feel bad for the teachers getting 15000 and must work all the time with no savings.  I'm the only teacher here who can take a year off and do nothing, which means I can fight back if I feel wronged.  

 

Their mistake was marketing my special class to thousands.  Class is full, 525000 a term to the school.  Nobody else here can teach this, I'm the only farang.

 

Puzzling why they thought a 10000 baht monthly decrease would work....

 

I've only been teaching 17 months, and 40000 is ok compared to others but I might be done with dealing with schools.  I'm not in BKK.  

 

If you want my job in October, pm me.

 

55555

 

 

 

 

[DavisH]

Government school or private school? Private schools fall under the Private School Act. From the Private School Act. The only teacher from a private school that was awarded severance was part Thai and also fired mid-contract for no sound reason. 

Edited July 3, 2018 by DavisH

[KhunFred]

Sounds like many of you are from the UK where labour laws are actually enforced. Being from the USA, where they are NOT enforced, I'm a bit surprised that anyone would think that Thailand would enforce these laws in favour of a farang. when they don't even treat their own people fairly. I have never worked in Thailand, I am only retired here, but I hear many stories from average Thai people, usually women. Why would the OP be exempt from the usual pattern of corruption and scofflaw? It's a serious question, not an invitation to a flame. Answers would be informative.