UK demands Russia explain nerve attack after two more people struck down

[Morch]

47 minutes ago, BestB said:

So following your logic, any nation can start laying blame on any nation they like or dislike on pure speculations?

 

Probability? So if i kill someone in Thailand using American  brand  weapon, probability would be that American government is responsible?What about if weapon was modified and its origin could not be determined with certainty? does the blame still lay with American government?

 

 

 

 

You are the one asserting the rationale to be "pure speculations". It does not follow that this is so. If the UK government was to air some totally outlandish claim, which had absolutely no reasonable foundation, then you'd have a point.

 

The supposed analogy suggested got little to do with the case at hand. But be that as it may, most advanced arms deals include clauses regarding use of systems and means. Anyway, yet another pointless deflection - topic  is not about the US, Thailand or wherever it is you're trying to derail it.

 

[BestB]

Just now, Morch said:

 

You are the one asserting the rationale to be "pure speculations". It does not follow that this is so. If the UK government was to air some totally outlandish claim, which had absolutely no reasonable foundation, then you'd have a point.

 

The supposed analogy suggested got little to do with the case at hand. But be that as it may, most advanced arms deals include clauses regarding use of systems and means. Anyway, yet another pointless deflection - topic  is not about the US, Thailand or wherever it is you're trying to derail it.

 

But UK government has not aired anything, but demanding Russia to explain how/why 2 native Brits were poisoned? Only because something that was used to poison them resembles a Russian made chemical

 

Why stop there? why not demand Russia takes responsibility for every car accident in UK?

[dick dasterdly]

29 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

OK let's take this up.

 

If the UK blames Russia for some action that the UK believes was instigated by Russia and then takes retaliatory action itself.

 

Who, or what institution decides the UK acted wrongly and what can they do about it?

And that highlights the horrendous part of politics....

 

Every now and again a nation blames another (for political reasons) and then takes 'retaliatory' action to bolster the nationalistic public opinion....  Of course I'm thinking of Iraq....

 

You're right of course, nothing whatsoever can be done about the lies told by govts. that resulted in a war against another country - that left the country far more unstable....

 

Back on topic, this latest (non fatal) poisoning, was bound to result in many questioning the 'uk line'.  Even more so, when they became more strident about demanding explanations after this latest, incomprehensible poisoning!

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, BestB said:

But UK government has not aired anything, but demanding Russia to explain how/why 2 native Brits were poisoned? Only because something that was used to poison them resembles a Russian made chemical

 

Why stop there? why not demand Russia takes responsibility for every car accident in UK?

Your spirited, if somewhat lacking, defence of Russia is noted. 

[BestB]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Your spirited, if somewhat lacking, defence of Russia is noted. 

Thank you for your opinion, but i am still waiting for the law that you kept referring to

[thaibeachlovers]

I'm sure Putin is quaking in his boots at "Britain's demands". Russia may not be the military giant it used to be, but it's got a bigger one that the UK, which has been doing it's best to destroy its own for decades.

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

And that highlights the horrendous part of politics....

 

Every now and again a nation blames another (for political reasons) and then takes 'retaliatory' action to bolster the nationalistic public opinion....  Of course I'm thinking of Iraq....

 

You're right of course, nothing whatsoever can be done about the lies told by govts. that resulted in a war against another country - that left the country far more unstable....

 

Back on topic, this latest (non fatal) poisoning, was bound to result in many questioning the 'uk line'.  Even more so, when they became more strident about demanding explanations after this latest, incomprehensible poisoning!

"Back on topic, this latest (non fatal) poisoning, was bound to result in many questioning the 'uk line'.  Even more so, when they became more strident about demanding explanations after this latest, incomprehensible poisoning!"

 

You ought, at the very least, consider if that was the intention of the last poisoning. I'm curious why you do not.

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

"Back on topic, this latest (non fatal) poisoning, was bound to result in many questioning the 'uk line'.  Even more so, when they became more strident about demanding explanations after this latest, incomprehensible poisoning!"

 

You ought, at the very least, consider if that was the intention of the last poisoning. I'm curious why you do not.

As I've heard it, the poisoning was caused by them picking up a container, so it may not have been intentional at all.

[dick dasterdly]

10 minutes ago, BestB said:

But UK government has not aired anything, but demanding Russia to explain how/why 2 native Brits were poisoned? Only because something that was used to poison them resembles a Russian made chemical

 

Why stop there? why not demand Russia takes responsibility for every car accident in UK?

 

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Your spirited, if somewhat lacking, defence of Russia is noted. 

So a post pointing out the obvious, is not only 'defending russia' - but you are also taking note ?!

 

I'm sure the poster is quaking in his boots - LOL.

Edited July 8, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

As I've heard it, the poisoning was caused by them picking up a container, so it may not have been intentional at all.

You've heard.

 

And did you hear who put the container there?

[Morch]

40 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

ok, i thought about it.  i shall accept your logic.

 

sovereign nations are sovereign.

putin felt that murdering skripal was in russia's best interest.

as the ruler of a sovereign nation he has that right.

there's no international law that specifically prevents putin

from tracking down russian traitors wherever they may be, right?

and even then, there's no enforcement mechanism.

regardless, if britian wants to give shelter to a traitor, they should

understand there may be consequences.

 

 

Russia acting against UK citizens on UK soil violates UK sovereignty. Russia may choose to act in such a manner, but it does not follow that this is anywhere near acceptable. At the very least, it is quite a few notches above the so-called "speculations" some posters complain about.

 

[BestB]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

You've heard.

 

And did you hear who put the container there?

Unsure who put it there, but very sure who did not clean it up for  4 months.

 

Good to see tax payers money well spent on council workers???

 

[dick dasterdly]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

"Back on topic, this latest (non fatal) poisoning, was bound to result in many questioning the 'uk line'.  Even more so, when they became more strident about demanding explanations after this latest, incomprehensible poisoning!"

 

You ought, at the very least, consider if that was the intention of the last poisoning. I'm curious why you do not.

Double bluff?

 

Always possible of course.

Edit- I hadn't considered it as it seemed a step too unlikely.

 

Edit 2 - But that doesn't excuse the brit. govt's. ridiculous response (as per this thread) - without not only any evidence, but decreasing evidence as a result of this latest poisoning.....

Edited July 8, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[Morch]

21 minutes ago, BestB said:

But UK government has not aired anything, but demanding Russia to explain how/why 2 native Brits were poisoned? Only because something that was used to poison them resembles a Russian made chemical

 

Why stop there? why not demand Russia takes responsibility for every car accident in UK?

 

The UK aired an accusation against Russia with regard to the first case. It was found acceptable and supported by many other governments. You may consider this insignificant, based on speculation and whatnot - it matters naught.

 

There was more to the UK accusations and assertions than what you allege. To head of excepted nonsense, consult previous topics. Quite a few links as to what was actually asserted and why. Not halfway as simplistic as you suggest.

 

The last line is the usual bogus comment. Doesn't have anything to do with anything.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Double bluff?

 

Always possible of course.

And this DD is I think the issue. 

 

If you or I are accused of a crime then we go to court with a presumption of innocence and of course evidence is required. 

 

But a Sovereign State is a very different prospect. 

 

By your own arguments regarding the duplicity of the UK government, Putin has at his command the whole apparatus of a state, he can command action and he can command propaganda to cover that action. 

 

Apply your own cynicism towards the UK government to Russia and ask the age old question: 

 

cui bono? 

 

 

A second poisoning muddying the waters for the benefit of Russia is far more believable than a second poisoning for some un specified UK government reasons. 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

8 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Double bluff?

 

Always possible of course.

Edit- I hadn't considered it as it seemed a step too unlikely.

 

Edit 2 - But that doesn't excuse the brit. govt's. ridiculous response (as per this thread) - without not only any evidence, but decreasing evidence as a result of this latest poisoning.....

Sorry I had to remove my 'Thanks' emoji after your edits.

[dick dasterdly]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You've heard.

 

And did you hear who put the container there?

Quite.

 

The 'russians did it'  arguments become increasingly difficult when it comes to this latest couple.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, BestB said:

Only this topic is not about other threads or what happened 4 months ago, This topic is about 2 brits with no connections to Russia being poisoned and Russia accused once again. where clearly there is no motive or gain.

 

So would appear my comments have a lot more to do with topic at hand than your deflections and references to unrelated topics

The fact that you can't see or can't accept a motive/gain is no evidence that these do not exist. 

 

And as I have argued, the UK government is under absolutely no obligation to provide 'proof'.

 

Your spirited defence of Russia is noted. 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

Sorry I had to remove my 'Thanks' emoji after your edits.

I'm crying as I type at the lack of your emoji....?

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Quite.

 

The 'russians did it'  arguments become increasingly difficult when it comes to this latest couple.

I guess you believe the UK government have a duty to tell you everything.

Well, they don't.

 

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, BestB said:

Only this topic is not about other threads or what happened 4 months ago, This topic is about 2 brits with no connections to Russia being poisoned and Russia accused once again. where clearly there is no motive or gain.

 

So would appear my comments have a lot more to do with topic at hand than your deflections and references to unrelated topics

 

If you actually believed the current topic ought to be disassociated from the previous instance, then you'd avoid the numerous references to previous case.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Morch

[BestB]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

I guess you believe the UK government have a duty to tell you everything.

Well, they don't.

 

Would have thought government voted by the people and for the people did have a responsibility but as it turns out, they do not. They can do whatever they like and we all suppose to accept it.

 

Roger that !

[BestB]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

If you actually believed the current topic ought to be disassociated from the previous instance, then you'd avoid the numerous references to previous case.

 

 

 

 

Would it be safe to call this response a deflection?

[sammieuk1]

My son who lives very close to both sites says the only benefit is free parking in and around Salisbury huge bits are police no go areas the local economy has been devastated .

 

Russia has used a military grade weapon of mass destruction on the streets of the UK to kill a Russian how ever this container was disposed of is how the two Brits have now been contaminated its an appalling crime that must have some action from Downing street but what? is the question Putin's response will always be deny everything.

 

 

[Morch]

1 minute ago, BestB said:

Would have thought government voted by the people and for the people did have a responsibility but as it turns out, they do not. They can do whatever they like and we all suppose to accept it.

 

Roger that !

 

That's not the point or claim made.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, BestB said:

Would have thought government voted by the people and for the people did have a responsibility but as it turns out, they do not. They can do whatever they like and we all suppose to accept it.

 

Roger that !

The government do have many responsibilities, first amongst which are defence and security.

 

Sitting around with a thumb up an available orifice while 'proof' is provided to the general public before acting to defend the UK is not one of them. 

(Ask any RN nuclear sub commander).

 

[Scott]

Troll posts removed.   Continue and face a suspensions.  

 

[ChouDoufu]

7 minutes ago, sammieuk1 said:

My son who lives very close to both sites says the only benefit is free parking in and around Salisbury huge bits are police no go areas the local economy has been devastated .

 

Russia has used a military grade weapon of mass destruction on the streets of the UK to kill a Russian how ever this container was disposed of is how the two Brits have now been contaminated its an appalling crime that must have some action from Downing street but what? is the question Putin's response will always be deny everything.

 

 

thank you for returning to the topic.

 

there has been an event, the british government is making certain claims.  nobody here can prove or disprove the claims, and the government apparently has no duty to explain themselves.  but that doesn't really matter.

 

the question for those on public forums....do you believe the government claims, and if so why?  have you seen any proof/evidence of russian involvement, or are your beliefs based solely on what some politician tells you to believe?

 

if your government gets involved in a cold-war returns quarrel with a nuclear armed opponent, takes action where you might have to pay the price, do you accept everything because, well, putin bad?

 

questioning the narrative does not make one a lover of putin.

[BestB]

39 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The government do have many responsibilities, first amongst which are defence and security.

 

Sitting around with a thumb up an available orifice while 'proof' is provided to the general public before acting to defend the UK is not one of them. 

(Ask any RN nuclear sub commander).

 

And accusing a nation with no proof which may result in military conflict is a better option? Especially a nation with far greater nuclear capabilities, should also ask the same commander about that? 

 

Perhaps also might be a wise choice to look into its own backyard to determine how bad Russia managed to smuggle such a weapon into UK.? Surely that would be wiser choice when it comes to defense and security?

 

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by BestB

[Morch]

20 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

thank you for returning to the topic.

 

there has been an event, the british government is making certain claims.  nobody here can prove or disprove the claims, and the government apparently has no duty to explain themselves.  but that doesn't really matter.

 

the question for those on public forums....do you believe the government claims, and if so why?  have you seen any proof/evidence of russian involvement, or are your beliefs based solely on what some politician tells you to believe?

 

if your government gets involved in a cold-war returns quarrel with a nuclear armed opponent, takes action where you might have to pay the price, do you accept everything because, well, putin bad?

 

questioning the narrative does not make one a lover of putin.

 

The question for those on public forums could just as well be - do you believe Russia wasn't involved, and if so why? Does Russia's record give particular reason not to suspect it? Are your beliefs based solely on what some pundit pandering to your views tells you to believe?

 

And, of course, if Russia is responsible, then the supposed return of the cold-war (which, personally, I don't think went anywhere) would be attributed to Russia's moves. Guess no questions as to that point.

 

Asserting Russia is involved doesn't make one a lover of UK government.