Don’t Blame Boys’ Coach: Thainet, Families, Officials

[webfact]

Don’t Blame Boys’ Coach: Thainet, Families, Officials

By Asaree Thaitrakulpanich, Staff Reporter

 

Left: Ekapol Chantawong in the cave. Right: Ekapol with the football team on a trip in Chiang Rai.

 

BANGKOK — Public sentiment is rallying around Ekapol Chantawong, the coach stuck in Tham Luang Nang Non for a fortnight with his football team of 12 boys.

 

Netizens, the boys’ relatives and public officials were finding it hard to place blame on Ekapol, even after the rescue effort claimed its first victim Friday: Petty Officer 1st Class Smaan Kunan, 38.

 

Full story: http://www.khaosodenglish.com/culture/net/2018/07/06/dont-blame-boys-coach-thainet-families-officials/

 

-- © Copyright Khaosod English 2018-07-06

[coulson]

Let the guy get out first, then hear him out. Who knows what led them so far in, or how they came about to go in at all, kids will be kids.

 

One thing he has managed to do is keep the whole lot of them together and safe from harm, enduring a psychological nightmare, and he insisted they all got the first of the aid when it finally came.

[jaltsc]

"...fnding it hard to place blame..."

 

It's not about "placing blame". It's taking responsibility for ones actions. Which one is taught from birth to avoid, since it results in losing face. In a culture of avoiding responsibility, problems will never be identified, addressed and solved. 

 

One doesn't need to be blamed or have what he did pointed out as "wrong". Another way to approach it is to identify what was done right, build upon that, and make necessary improvements so this doesn't happen again. 

Edited July 6, 2018 by jaltsc

[Sheryl]

Wrong in hindsight is not necessarily the same as something one should have known not to do at the time.

Cave still open for exploring and normally free of flooding at that time of year.

Cave dry and skies clear.

Easy to cast blame now but can any of us be sure we couldn't have made the same mistake?

It definitely sounds like he did all the right things once they got trapped, even to the detriment of his own health.

If these boys do not all make it out alive the weight on him will be enormous. Even if they do, there is the loss if a rescuer (let us hope it stays at just one rescuer).

A very heavy mental burden indeed.

No call to add to it with recriminations.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[greenchair]

5 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Wrong in hindsight is not necessarily the same as something one should have known not to do at the time.

Cave still open for exploring and normally free of flooding at that time of year.

Cave dry and skies clear.

Easy to cast blame now but can any of us be sure we couldn't have made the same mistake?

It definitely sounds like he did all the right things once they got trapped, even to the detriment of his own health.

If these boys do not all make it out alive the weight on him will be enormous. Even if they do, there is the loss if a rescuer (let us hope it stays at just one rescuer).

A very heavy mental burden indeed.

No call to add to it with recriminations.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Yes, but there hasn't been any news from them for sometime now. 

Are they just sitting there or are they bringing them out. ????

[darksidedog]

I think any laying of blame is totally inappropriate. This poor guy is going to have nightmares for years over this, but to my mind, he has done NOTHING wrong, quite the opposite.The sign outside gave warnings from July onwards when it was June 23rd. They had been there many times without incident and it was a sunny day. They would have no idea what mother nature was going to throw their way and it is mother nature who is the villain in the story.

Every report has shown that the guy is a hero. Once he realised their situation, he kept them together, helped them save energy, refused any of the food, so the boys could have it and prevented any of them from trying anything foolhardy. As a result they were all found alive. Talk of blame is utterly wrong. They should be talking about commendations or medals, which he thoroughly deserves.

I doubt any one of us could have been as good a leader as he has shown himself to be.

[DM07]

What I really don't get about all this "hero"-nonsense: when a "farang" in Thailand get's into any kind of trouble, all the "thai'er than Thai" are all over him, for "not thinking for himself"...not "taking precautions for himself" and asking for the "nanny state", to clear things for him!

But this guy gets not only off the hook...he gets turned into a hero!

Why?

Because the sign at the cave -entrance said, the cave is dangerous from July to November and he went in on 23rd of June!

Seriously?

And since the weather was fine, when they entered, the fact that it is rainy season and weather changes quickly, shouldn't have brought up any thoughts like "Hmmmm...maybe not the best idea"?

At another thread, people are actually finding the excuse, the children "pressured him" into going into the cave!

Yeah...that is why you are a #$%^&*@ ADULT and your judgement should be better, as the one of a 12 year old!

 

So again: it SEEMS like he acted great once inside the situation...that's why I think, no one should charge him or jail him or else...but please: he is NO HERO!

 

[cardinalblue]

At that moment, was he not the captain of their Ship? How is he different than the recent Phuket boat captains - both faced and made weather related decisions? 

 

I would be much less critical had this been December, bone dry out, no rain and no history of rain....

 

but it wasn't....it had been raining for 2 months, the rainy season had come early...one has to be aware of your surroundings. He's a native he isn't a tourist so he knows the rainy season can change the physical nature of the situation quickly especially in tropical countries...

 

No, I don't buy into accidents just happen...blame it on the rain...same same with drivers who don't adjust to road conditions and then blame the rain for the accident b/c I couldn't stop in time...

 

it's a tunnel vision mentality combined with a lack of acountability/lost of face culture....

 

if he came out later and says, yes I made a mistake and will learn from it and talks to other groups about taking responsibility for errors and achievements, I would have the upmost respect for him...

 

the problem lies not in him but the culture condemns this type of behavior vs the importance of not losing face at all cost...

 

they dont see the benefit of accepting one's actions with a poor outcome and learning and talking about it...

 

its already started with the writing this article...don't pinpoint blame, it no ones fault,  accidents just happen etc...

 

all in the name of preserving and protecting face vs accepting accountability...

 

 

[snoop1130]

Thailand's trapped boys: careless or courageous?

By Panarat Thepgumpanat and Aukkarapon Niyomyat

 

 

BANGKOK (Reuters) - Round-the-clock efforts by rescue teams in Thailand to save 12 boys and their soccer coach trapped in a flooded cave have prompted some Thais to turn to social media to ask why they went in at all, and whether they deserve to be called heroes.

 

The junior soccer players, who disappeared in the Tham Luang cave in the northern province of Chiang Rai on June 23, were discovered on Monday by British divers in a partially flooded chamber.

 

News of the survival of the "Wild Boar" team sparked celebrations and relief among Thais transfixed by the drama, following every twist and turn of a search that has drawn worldwide attention and volunteers from Australia to Finland.

 

The furore provoked plenty of opinions on social media, particularly on a Facebook page called "Drama-addict" that is popular among Thais and has 2 million followers.

 

Some criticised what they saw as the group's recklessness.

 

"There was a big sign outside the cave but they still went in. They should be scolded," said one person on the popular website Pantip.com.

 

Others appeared to criticise the team's assistant coach, Ekapol Chanthawong, who went along on the expedition after a soccer practice. But "Coach Ek" had his defenders too.

 

"Coach Ek acted responsibly in his capacity as an adult and a coach to take care of the children's lives and well-being," said one user.

 

Some urged forgiveness for the boys, aged between 11 and 16.

 

"When we were kids we weren't much better than this ... we probably also did things that disappointed our parents. We should not praise them but forgive them," said one user.

 

DON'T TAKE SIDES

 

There has been little official criticism of the boys' actions while rescuers struggle to decide how best to extricate them from the flooded cave complex, as most of them cannot swim.

 

Last week, Damrong Hanpakdeeniyom, the head of the forest park where the cave complex is located, said visitors were usually barred from venturing in more than about 700 m (2,300 ft).

 

"Inside it is very dark ... and if it rains between July and December then we close it," Damrong said. "This group went in further than allowed."

 

Other Thais commented on the expanding scope of the rescue, which risks becoming unmanageable as more volunteers turn up and the media spotlight grows.

 

It could take weeks to bring the team to safety, and the death of a volunteer diver on Friday underscored the risks.

 

"You went in and in the end, other people have to run around trying to find you," a user posted on Pantip.com, in comments that aimed at the group. "Soldiers, SEALS and villagers to pump water for you."

 

The criticism spurred the Department of Mental Health to beg Thais not to take sides.

 

"The families should focus on proper parenting while society should not judge whether this was wrong or right but take this as an opportunity to learn," it said in a statement, promising counselling for the boys once freed.

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-7-6

[Psimbo]

Damned if they do, damned if they don't- typical Thaigeezer responses. Lets wait until this ends to cast the first stone.

[Eligius]

1 hour ago, jaltsc said:

"...fnding it hard to place blame..."

 

It's not about "placing blame". It's taking responsibility for ones actions. Which one is taught from birth to avoid, since it results in losing face. In a culture of avoiding responsibility, problems will never be identified, addressed and solved. 

 

One doesn't need to be blamed or have what he did pointed out as "wrong". Another way to approach it is to identify what was done right, build upon that, and make necessary improvements so this doesn't happen again. 

Generally I would fully agree with you that very often in Thai culture, acceptance of responsibility is sadly lacking. Evasion of responsibility is frequently the norm here. 

 

In this case, however, I feel that the Assistant Coach, Khun Ek, is, if anything, beating himself up excessively with guilt and is taking too much responsibility for what happened. After all, that sign did say that the cave was dangerous from July onwards - and he entered the cave a full week before that. OK, that can be construed as faulty judgement; but what this young man has done since then inside the cave (according to reports) has been impressive: he has taught the kids meditation to keep them calm; he has given much (most?) of his food to them to keep them alive; he has taught them how to conserve energy, and how NOT to drink the dirty flood water, but the cleaner water dripping from the walls, etc.

    In fact, I think that Khun Ek has shown himself to be something of a true and caring role model for young Thais. He does not need to be lectured by us or anyone to 'take responsibility': he clearly has taken responsibility in spades and is to be admired. The main thing now is to get him and the others out and ensure that they do not suffer long-term psychological/ emotional traumas as a result of this nightmarish ordeal.

[JAZZDOG]

In any developed country in the world the municipality would likely be found liable had they placed that sign allowing access to a cave they knew had a history of flooding. That sign should have declared the cave closed from May 1 - Nov 1 or whenever rain threatened the area. It should have had a secure gate limiting access between those dates. Coach Ek and the boys would likely have grounds for a multi-million law suit against the state and it's officials who are entrusted to provide public safety. Public safety in Thailand has never been a top priority like the lack of enforcement of helmet laws and traffic laws.  Blaming a citizen harmed because the government failed in it's responsibility to protect its citizens from known hazards is truly insane. The parents and coach Ek need to be lawyering up as soon as this is resolved.

[smo]

Let's do a morality comparison here. Young Kennedy some years ago offered to fly his cousin in the evening time from Martha's Vineyard (if I'm wrong regarding the locality, please forgive me, it's been some years) to the local airpot in land. It was getting dark, the sea foggy. He, his fiancee and the cousin ended up at the bottom of the ocean.

 

What's the difference in set up (I'm not talking about outcome) of that incident and this cave one? The Kennedy party consisted of adults, who would, one would hope, been able to question at least for themself whether this involved any safety concern. The boys trapped in cave are at best juveniles, not capable of thinking for themselves and had to depend on the judgment of their adult leader. Thus the latter would have to exert better, much better my emphasis, judgement simply by the additional burden, the safety of his charge. If he went in the cave alone, I don't care and I won't judge. If he went in with his adult cousin and fiance, ditto. But he went in with a dozen of kids whose safety - and lives - depended solely on his action. Somebody on this or other thread compared to taking the kids across the road. No, sorry, this is not the same order, neither by intent nor by magnitude.

[Kadilo]

It’s nice that those directly affected can show some consideration and compassion even if some of the barstool Billy’s are struggling. 

Edited July 6, 2018 by Kadilo

[ThreeEyedRaven]

Well I see posts here from DM07, Cardinalblue and smo who obviously have never made a single mistake in their life, given the sanctimonious nature of their posts. Does any one of you think that coach would have taken himself, let alone the boys too, if he had the slightest sense that any of this shit was going to happen? The timing was millions to one, and yet it happened. I think it would be harsh to even call it an error of judgment, they had absolutely no inclination whatsoever this was even possible, let alone likely. From all that I have read about this, his actions once the problem came on them are the reason we have 13 people trapped, not 13 people dead. Laying blame from the comfort of your armchair, when none of us would be likely to show the courage and steadfastness he has shown is pretty low. Those who blame him should go take a look at themselves in the mirror and ask themselves if they are even half the man the coach is?

[Eligius]

32 minutes ago, ThreeEyedRaven said:

Well I see posts here from DM07, Cardinalblue and smo who obviously have never made a single mistake in their life, given the sanctimonious nature of their posts. Does any one of you think that coach would have taken himself, let alone the boys too, if he had the slightest sense that any of this shit was going to happen? The timing was millions to one, and yet it happened. I think it would be harsh to even call it an error of judgment, they had absolutely no inclination whatsoever this was even possible, let alone likely. From all that I have read about this, his actions once the problem came on them are the reason we have 13 people trapped, not 13 people dead. Laying blame from the comfort of your armchair, when none of us would be likely to show the courage and steadfastness he has shown is pretty low. Those who blame him should go take a look at themselves in the mirror and ask themselves if they are even half the man the coach is?

I don't think DM07 and some others are being sanctimonious or claiming that they have never made a mistake in their lives. I think that they are ultimately pointing out that all too often in Thailand people display very little forethought or critical thinking, both about the present and the future. This can lead those Thais and other persons into huge problems.

 

Also, I myself would say that if a person is brought up in a culture where critical and analytical thinking are actively discouraged (try displaying critical thinking in public before Prayut and see where that gets you!), then the majority of the population are likely never to have developed that skill in their daily lives. 'Thinking ahead' is one area where Thais are not naturally adept (think of Thai driving style on the roads here!). 

 

Thus: certain potentially very dangerous Thai caves are open to the public (without adequate warning) and exploration of those caves is allowed  by the municipal Authority or Government, who have not applied critical evaluation of the risks and who allow people to enter (ill-informed and ill-prepared) into certain situations that could well prove lethal. It is a failure of municipal and governmental imagination and fore-planning.

 

In the case of one individual, an error of judgement can easily be made in such a non-analytical, non-forward thinking culture as found in Thailand. That individual need not be castigated. And if that individual then does his utmost to remedy his mistake, even to sacrifice himself to save those who are with him, this surely counts for a great deal.

 

But the fundamental problem remains: in Thailand, almost no sensible evaluation of risk is made  regarding public places and public activities. The Authorities (who do, after all, have the wealth and power to improve themselves and society, and to gain a broader vision of the society they help shape) have a lot to answer for ... 

 

Edited July 6, 2018 by Eligius

[vogie]

2 hours ago, DM07 said:

What I really don't get about all this "hero"-nonsense: when a "farang" in Thailand get's into any kind of trouble, all the "thai'er than Thai" are all over him, for "not thinking for himself"...not "taking precautions for himself" and asking for the "nanny state", to clear things for him!

But this guy gets not only off the hook...he gets turned into a hero!

Why?

Because the sign at the cave -entrance said, the cave is dangerous from July to November and he went in on 23rd of June!

Seriously?

And since the weather was fine, when they entered, the fact that it is rainy season and weather changes quickly, shouldn't have brought up any thoughts like "Hmmmm...maybe not the best idea"?

At another thread, people are actually finding the excuse, the children "pressured him" into going into the cave!

Yeah...that is why you are a #$%^&*@ ADULT and your judgement should be better, as the one of a 12 year old!

 

So again: it SEEMS like he acted great once inside the situation...that's why I think, no one should charge him or jail him or else...but please: he is NO HERO!

 

He obviously hasen't got your superior intelligence.

And by general concensus he is very much a hero.

[ThreeEyedRaven]

11 minutes ago, Eligius said:

I don't think DM07 and some others are being sanctimonious or claiming that they have never made a mistake in their lives. I think that they are ultimately pointing out that all too often in Thailand people display very little forethought or critical thinking, both about the present and the future. This can lead those Thais and other persons into huge problems.

 

Also, I myself would say that if a person is brought up in a culture where critical and analytical thinking are actively discouraged (try displaying critical thinking in public before Prayut and see where that gets you!), then the majority of the population are likely never to have developed that skill in their daily lives. 'Thinking ahead' is one area where Thais are not naturally adept (think of Thai driving style on the roads here!). 

 

Thus: certain potentially very dangerous Thai caves are open to the public (without adequate warning) and exploration of those caves is allowed  by the municipal Authority or Government, who have not applied critical evaluation of the risks and who allow people to enter (ill-informed and ill-prepared) into certain situations that could well prove lethal. It is a failure of municipal and governmental imagination and fore-planning.

 

In the case of one individual, an error of judgement can easily be made in such a non-analytical, non-forward thinking culture as found in Thailand. That individual need not be castigated. And if that individual then does his utmost to remedy his mistake, even to sacrifice himself to save those who are with him, this surely counts for a great deal.

 

But the fundamental problem remains: in Thailand, almost no sensible evaluation of risk is made  regarding public places and public activities. The Authorities (who do, after all, have the wealth and power to improve themselves and society, and to gain a broader vision of the society they help shape) have a lot to answer for ... 

 

A good argument Eligius, though I personally think it is is much simpler.

They were caught out as Darksidedog said, by mother nature, who is fickle and capricious.

Were you to blame every person who was caught out by her over the ages, history would be full of villains.

Every ship lost, every person killed in a hurricane,, they all should have known better than to be where they were, right?

Personally, I don't care why they went in, because that is history.

What the coach has done since, is huge. He has done everything and more that any man could ask.

Very easy for people sat in safety to criticise with the benefit of hindsight.

[yrag]

3 hours ago, coulson said:

Let the guy get out first, then hear him out. Who knows what led them so far in, or how they came about to go in at all, kids will be kids.

 

One thing he has managed to do is keep the whole lot of them together and safe from harm, enduring a psychological nightmare, and he insisted they all got the first of the aid when it finally came.

The  sign at entrance says July not enter ( Warning ) , they went in June 23rd...why crucify the coach . Maybe coach was a  little  stupid for taking in there in the first place, ...But He saved them...Just think what if he had not been there? ? He is presently the one in  the worse condition, gave all food and water to the boys.

[Eligius]

8 minutes ago, ThreeEyedRaven said:

A good argument Eligius, though I personally think it is is much simpler.

They were caught out as Darksidedog said, by mother nature, who is fickle and capricious.

Were you to blame every person who was caught out by her over the ages, history would be full of villains.

Every ship lost, every person killed in a hurricane,, they all should have known better than to be where they were, right?

Personally, I don't care why they went in, because that is history.

What the coach has done since, is huge. He has done everything and more that any man could ask.

Very easy for people sat in safety to criticise with the benefit of hindsight.

You are right: the Assistant Coach is in no way a villain. He was caught out by nature's swift change in mood. One thing I was always taught, as a kid, was: 'Never underestimate nature. We are puny in comparison ...'

 

As you know, ThreeEyedRaven, I hold the Assistant Coach, Khun Ek, in high regard for the bravery and conscientiousness he has shown while in the cave. I think most of us can only begin to imagine - barely - how nightmarish and horrific it must have been to be confined on that ledge, in the dark, for so many days - knowing that at any moment there could be another flash flood and that one's life would be in direst peril.

 

Khun Ek and his young friends have shown great fortitude and courage in their present horrendous situation. I feel confident that even posters who would criticise Khun Ek more than I wish to, want only to see his safe release, along with his brave friends ...

 

Edited July 6, 2018 by Eligius

[DM07]

19 minutes ago, vogie said:

He obviously hasen't got your superior intelligence.

And by general concensus he is very much a hero.

Yaaaaaaawn!

I don't give 2 hot you-know-what about the general consensus!

I have an opinion, I though about it and it obviously isn't your opinion!

But if you want: i'll bite !

I never brought people under my care into any life-threatening situation, soooooo......

[yrag]

28 minutes ago, vogie said:

He obviously hasen't got your superior intelligence.

And by general concensus he is very much a hero.

I agree should be praised...The  sign at entrance says July not enter ( Warning ) , they went in June 23rd...why crucify the coach . Maybe coach was a  little  stupid for taking in there in the first place, ..Their were NO intent of harm….But He saved them...Just think what if he had not been there? ? He is presently the one in  the worse condition, gave all food and water to the boys. He saved those boys lives, , further more officials should have Gated the entrance  knowing the risk...They be the ones should be held accountable...

[mok199]

my opinion has changed...my sympathy has been replaced by ambivalence ...I say leave them in the cave with supplys until it is safe to remove them...no more fatalities...

[duanebigsby]

There is also the story that he didn't lead the kids into the cave.

They went in by themselves and when they were late returning home the parents phoned the coach.

He went in searching for them and became trapped along side of them.

Don't you guys read news?

[DM07]

1 minute ago, duanebigsby said:

There is also the story that he didn't lead the kids into the cave.

They went in by themselves and when they were late returning home the parents phoned the coach.

He went in searching for them and became trapped along side of them.

Don't you guys read news?

That story has been proven false by now!

That was the headcoach, who was informed by the parents, but could not get into the caves anymore, as they were flooded already!

[DM07]

5 minutes ago, yrag said:

I agree should be praised...The  sign at entrance says July not enter ( Warning ) , they went in June 23rd...why crucify the coach . Maybe coach was a  little  stupid for taking in there in the first place, ..Their were NO intent of harm….But He saved them...Just think what if he had not been there? ? He is presently the one in  the worse condition, gave all food and water to the boys. He saved those boys lives, , further more officials should have Gated the entrance  knowing the risk...They be the ones should be held accountable...

...and by posting the same 5 lines over and over, you hope to achieve exactly...what?

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, yrag said:

I agree should be praised...The  sign at entrance says July not enter ( Warning ) , they went in June 23rd...why crucify the coach . Maybe coach was a  little  stupid for taking in there in the first place, ..Their were NO intent of harm….But He saved them...Just think what if he had not been there? ? He is presently the one in  the worse condition, gave all food and water to the boys. He saved those boys lives, , further more officials should have Gated the entrance  knowing the risk...They be the ones should be held accountable...

I hear what you're saying, but he entered the cave and there was no restrictions on at that time of year, so he went in oblivious to the drama that mother nature was to bestow on them.

It's like taking your children to the cinema and the roof collapsing, we cannot be responsible for circumstances beyond our control.

Edited July 6, 2018 by vogie

[Eligius]

2 minutes ago, duanebigsby said:

There is also the story that he didn't lead the kids into the cave.

They went in by themselves and when they were late returning home the parents phoned the coach.

He went in searching for them and became trapped along side of them.

Don't you guys read news?

It's been established now, pretty securely, I think, that actually two coaches have been involved in this terrible incident and that their identities have got conflated and confused in some quarters (more amongst us Westerners, perhaps, than amongst the Thais?): ONE coach, the Head Coach, did indeed go in search of the boys after he had been alerted to the fact that they were absent; the OTHER coach, the Assistant Coach, Khun Ek, appears to have gone into the cave with the youngsters right from the very beginning. He is still there with them now - and has behaved admirably while in that cavernous dungeon.

[Rhys]

..human nature is unpredictable and subjective...

 

[DM07]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

I hear what you're saying, but he entered the cave and there was no restrictions on at that time of year, so he went in oblivious to the drama that mother nature was to unfold.

It's like taking your children to the cinema and the roof collapsing, we cannot be responsible for circumstances beyond our control.

That is your ...are you serious?

Going into an underground cave in the middle of the rainy season is the same as the roof of a cinema collapsing?

General consensus says, that is absolute nonsense!

Edited July 6, 2018 by DM07